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Ha! Regarding health care reform, DU isn't so weird after all.

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:23 PM
Original message
Ha! Regarding health care reform, DU isn't so weird after all.
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/8/15/195716/974

Reflections

by BooMan
Sat Aug 15th, 2009 at 07:57:16 PM EST


I'll have more to say on this soon, but one notable thing about Netroots Nation was the split between people who are trying to get the Progressives to stand firm and torpedo any health care bill that isn't good enough and the people who are arguing that we need to get a foot in the door and pass something because the worst outcome is total failure.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice to see that all sides of me were well-represented.
:rofl:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. The trouble with the foot in the door, is that you can get injured if it
gets slammed on you.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. And what if it doesn't? You are loathe to admit we might just get
something valuable. Sorry, I'm obviously not in your mindset.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. You know what, I'm not your enemy, but you really show a great disrespect
for those who disagree with you. I would be delighted if this worked, but it hasn't it the past and I don't know why this would be the magic time it would work. I also love Obama as much as you do and I'm not criticizing him as much as I feel if he doesn't get this right it could be a big mistake so early in his administration. This would be a Jimmy Carter mistake that could make him a one term president.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Cleita. I think you show a great disrespect
every time you post only negative stuff when you can't or won't realize the possibilities.

It hasn't worked in the past? Who besides Clinton has tried it in the relatively near past? No one.

'The perfect is the enemy of the good.'

I think I heard that somewhere.

And I'm sorry if you think I'm disrespectful, but I'm as passionate as you. I think this will happen, and have to express myself.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Okay let's just throw fairy dust all over the corpses and go skipping through
the meadow. Is that positive enough for you? This program has been tried and it's failing. It's Massachusetts care brought to us by Mitt Romney, now they want it nationwide because the insurance industry LOVES it. So much more money from the taxpayers to keep up their life style, their bonuses, their lack of caring for anything but the bottom line. We have to stop thinking of health care as a commodity and start thinking of it as a community service like schools, fire departments, etc.. I am very willing to settle for a public option among the insurance scam policies, but that option cannot have one single insurer in it. Now let me distinguish what I mean by that. Yes, if a poor person wants to buy Blue Cross and the govt. subsidizes him so be it. Let him have it. But if the average citizen says he likes Medicare, let him be able to buy into it. That is the public option. But if you read the language of the bills, that is not what they are offering. The poor and elderly will get Medicaid and Medicare, but everyone else will have to buy insurance from the insurance companies. The govt. will subsidize the working poor, but they will not be able to get into Medicaid or Medicare if they don't qualify. This public option is a poison pill.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I tried. You wouldn't dream of it. nt
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Too bad... if they stopped and took a long term view
They would figure out that a public option is the death (or great diminishing) of the insurance industry. 10 years from now, the public option will be covering 50% of the people, maybe more.

And THAT is when we can finally hold a gun to big Pharma's head and tell them "cut out the crap".

I think President Obama HATES our health care industry, with a passion. And not because of his grandmother, but because of his MOTHER. And he wants to see the profit motive out of health care. But he is taking a long term view about it right now.

But that's just my humble opinion. I'm sure the netroots "I want my maypo" crowd know better than me.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. No, that would be the 'foot in the door' crowd. And ftr, I agree with
you. If the prez thought he had a chance in hell of passing single payer, he would. But he knows what he's up against.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So he scraps it in favor of no national health care plan that we
were promised we could choose from? You know the option, the insurance exchange smorgasboard? It seems that it is shaping up to all insurance and no national health care plan for those of us who want it.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. There you go again. You just chip away and chip away despite the
fact that nothing is set in stone. We don't know what will happen. And therein lies the problem. I'm an optimist and you're not.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. So since the "Single Payer or Nothing" Folks are gonna be unhappy regardless....
Edited on Sat Aug-15-09 10:48 PM by FrenchieCat
Considering that Single Payer has not a Prayer of getting passed....
why don't we get something done, so that the rest of us who aren't
just demanding one thing or nothing can be happy? Just sayin'! :shrug:
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Don't worry. Nothing is going to happen except the usual rearranging of
the deck chairs on the Titanic. Once a bill is signed, the health care issue is gone for another fifteen or twenty years. If there isn't an accessible for everyone national health care option in it and that is the way it's shaping up, you will get mostly nothing out of it except a higher tax bill.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yea, this sucks...
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/141916/10_awesome_things_that_would_happen_if_health_reform_passes?page=entire

snip//


1: The First Thing That Will Happen Is Absolutely Nothing

At least that's the case for a lot of people who now have quality health insurance.

If you have a decent health plan through your job, nothing will change for you in terms of your insurance.

In fact, if you work for a large or medium-sized company and have decent coverage at a price you can afford, then nothing can change for you -- you'll be ineligible to enroll in the public insurance option (which is discussed below).

If you have already have government-run health care -- if you're a vet, or are on Medicare or Medicaid or have a child in the State Children's Health Insurance Program, nothing will change for you in terms of your coverage. (One exception: Under the House bill, eligible children would be shifted from S-CHIP to a new public insurance program in 2013).

The only thing that would change for you in these circumstances would be this: your current insurance company would have a harder time screwing you over if you get sick. That's because, although your policy wouldn't change, it would be governed by new public-interest regulations for the entire health insurance industry. (See next item.)

2. New Protections for Consumers

Regardless of your place of employment or the kind of coverage you have now, new regulations would take effect in 2010 that would go a long way toward curtailing the insurance companies' worst abuses.

* Insurance companies could no longer deny coverage to people because they've had health problems in the past, nor could they charge hugely different rates for different groups of people (premiums could only vary by age, geography, tobacco use and family size).
* The House bill bans recissions -- the insurance industry's habitual practice of collecting premiums until someone gets sick, and then digging through their histories for an excuse to cancel coverage.
* Insurers wouldn't be allowed to cancel an individual's coverage for reasons other than failing to pay the premium.
* Insurers would no longer be permitted to impose annual or lifetime caps on benefits.
* Insurers that sell insufficient, cheapo plans that leave people vulnerable to medical crises would be required to disclose that fact to their customers.
* All insurers would be required to disclose how much of their spending is on health care and how much goes to costs like overhead, advertising, etc.
* The legislation (especially the Senate HELP bill) creates new tools for fighting insurance fraud and abuse.

3. Medical Bankruptcies Would Plummet

One of the most significant of these regulations is in the House bill: a cap on out-of-pocket expenses. If the measure passes, individuals would face a maximum of $5,000 in out-of-pocket expenses a year, and families no more than $10,000. For poorer families, the limits would be much lower: $500 per year, for example, for a family making less than 1.33 times the poverty rate.

In 2007, Harvard researchers studied thousands of bankruptcy filings and found that medical causes played a role in more than 6 in 10.

4. People Who Could Never Get Decent Coverage Will Finally Be Able To

So far, one of the great victories for the anti-reform movement has been convincing many small-business owners that health reform will put them under.

The reality is that small-business people, their employees, independent contractors, freelancers, entrepreneurs, part-timers and the "marginally employed" would be the biggest winners from the legislation if it passed as currently drafted. Small business owners and their employees -- as well as those other groups -- would, for the first time, be able to get decent coverage at a fair price, and if eligible, both employer and worker would be able to get extra help paying for it.

Under the current system, most of the largest employers in the country self-insure -- they pay their employees' claims directly and cut out the middleman.

Big firms that don't self-insure buy insurance on the large-group market, where risk is spread out over a large pool. Large-group plans tend to be more or less comprehensive and, relatively speaking, affordable.

But those forced to purchase coverage on the individual or small-group markets have little buying power and are routinely forced to pay budget-busting premiums for the worst possible coverage -- plans with high deductibles, caps on benefits and strict limits on what is and isn't covered.

This gets to the heart of the "public insurance option" -- the most contentious point of debate in the reform battle. It would work like this: The government would establish regional exchanges, or "gateways," that would be open to those who would otherwise be forced into the individual and small-group markets. These gateways would have relatively large insurance pools just like large employers -- and public programs like Medicare -- have now.

Within these large purchasing pools, people would be able to choose from among different insurance plans -- one a government-run "public option" and the rest offered by private insurers.

In order for private insurers to sell plans through the exchanges, they would be required to offer a standard set of benefits (which the public option would have to offer as well). They'd also be permitted to offer plans with more bells and whistles at a premium price.

For those enrolled in the public exchanges, the process would be quite similar to what employees in many large companies experience -- they would simply choose from among a variety of plans, with slightly different levels of coverage and costs.

Compared to the plans now available in the individual and small-group markets, they would pay a lot less for significantly better insurance (which, in reality, is what those "teabaggers" are protesting).

Because of pressure from Republicans and conservative Blue Dog Democrats, the public exchanges will phase in slowly, over a period of four to six years.

5. (Almost) Everyone Gets Covered

That brings us to another "controversial" -- but ultimately commonsense -- piece of the puzzle, the "individual mandate." It means that (almost) everyone would either have to buy health insurance or pay a modest penalty that would contribute to the system. In the House bill, the penalty would max out at 2.5 percent of income. Waivers would be available in the cases of economic hardship or for those who have religious objections.

There will be those who get those waivers; others will be left behind -- it's not a truly universal system. But according to preliminary projections, the result would be an uninsured rate of 3-5 percent, rather than the 16 or so percent who lack insurance today, reducing the rolls of the uninsured by some 20 million30 million.

6. Those Who Can't Afford the Premiums Will Get Help Paying

Ultimately, even if the public exchanges were to succeed in bringing the price of health insurance back to earth, a lot of people would still be priced out of the market.

All of the Democratic plans come with subsidies to help those at the lower end of the economic ladder get access to decent health care. The most generous are in the House bill, and how extensive the subsidies will be in the final legislation will be a point of heated debate.

In the House bill, individuals making less than 400 percent of the poverty line -- $43k per year and families earning under $88k -- will be eligible for subsidized coverage on a sliding scale.

Those at the lowest income levels (but who earn too much to get Medicaid) will be required to pay no more than 1.5 percent of their total income for health coverage.

Subsidies would also be available for co-pays -- also for people earning up to 400 percent of the poverty line.

Finally, many small businesses would be eligible for tax credits for insuring their employees.

7. No Free Lunch for Businesses

Currently, large employers that rely on low-skilled workforces usually offer little or no health coverage, and much of these workers' health care is already subsidized by taxpayers in the form of Medicaid and Medicare payments, other public programs and unpaid bills for emergency-room visits. Under the proposals in Congress, medium and large firms would face a simple choice: Offer their employees decent coverage or pay something into the system to offset the burden their employees' health needs impose on the American taxpayer.

8. More Low-Income Workers Eligible for Medicaid

All of the plans being considered by Congress make more of the working poor eligible for Medicaid by lifting the income limits on eligibility.

9. Some Things Will Change, but You'll Never Notice

The right's fearmongering is only effective because the health care debate is often so complex. Opponents of reform paint dark conspiracies about some of the more-obscure provisions in the reform package (a good example being the gross mischaracterization of a rather innocuous provision that makes counseling on living wills and other end-of-life decisions available to ill seniors as a "government death panel").

It is true, however, that the proposed legislation contain a number of provisions that aren't getting a lot of attention in the debate.

For example, there are measures that would impact the way doctors are paid, allocate additional dollars for developing the health care workforce and bring new technologies online.

These provisions will have a significant impact on a variety of stakeholders -- mostly health professionals -- but ordinary people looking for health coverage are not going to notice anything different about their health care.

10. Over Time, the System Will Become Healthier

Everything depends on what the final legislation entails. But if it were done right, those systemic changes -- greater competition, tighter regulation, technological improvements, a greater emphasis on prevention, the buying power and efficiency of less-fragmented insurance pools and an end to treating the uninsured in emergency rooms -- would gradually "bend the cost curve" of health coverage and offer insurance to tens of millions of people who today struggle with the health problems and stressful economic insecurity of living without insurance.

As I've argued before, the Democrats' approach is far from perfect. But the things outlined here are essentially what would come about if the more-progressive version(s) passed.

Understanding what's actually contained in the legislation leads to an unavoidable conclusion about the anger we've seen in recent weeks: it's doubtful that at anytime in the history of our nation have a group of people been so furiously opposed to something that would so obviously be an improvement over what they now have.

It's nothing less than a testament to the power of industry propaganda.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. If we get this, I can live with it.
What's important to me is that my sister can live with it. This will prevent her husband from being bankrupted if she becomes sicker than she is, which is her greatest fear: harming him. Relieving just that stress from her life will make an overwhelming difference.

It's still not single payer. The insurance companies will have a hell of a time fulfilling these obligations and still paying those huge salaries and bonuses. I have no idea how they will manage to cope. Personally, I hope they drop dead, but that's just deep emotion talking.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Hi.
Everyone has a bone in the health care reform issue.

I hope your sister can be happy, too. It's a time crunch for a lot of people.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Words in your post
Consumer
Afford
Bankruptcies
Purchasing pools
Modest penalty
Eligibility
Allocation of dollars
Stakeholders

I go to the Health --Canada homepage and those words don't come up.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/index-eng.php

Health care is not a commodity.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Again, too bad, Cleita. I can't wait to see the egg on your face.
You are all about this failing, and that's just sad.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I promise I will apologize to you and everyone, whom I have tried to convince
that they are being led by a ring in their nose about this, if I am wrong. However, to be blunt about it, the Trojan Horse needs to be there in the beginning and that is the national health care, no insurers allowed, public option. It's not a good solution but it's the one that might have a chance of changing how we do health care in this country. Will you apologize to me when the egg is on your face?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. It is in this country. To our worldwide shame.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. My conservative father made a good point the other day actually
He is absolutely against a public option because it opens the govt. being more involved in health insurance. He is terrified this will pave the way for more and more progressive health care reform. He could be right, as Social Security evolved over time. Many are focused on the perfect bill. I am focused on getting the govt. involved in any way possible in health care reform.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well, if you're going to aim, aim high and keep trying...
I've discovered from my own foray into local govt (8 months thus far, municipal council), you just have to follow through with what you believe in, pressing forward and bringing the argument back on track. They can't crucify me for bringing good arguments back and not "caving" for the sake of "everyone being on board". I hate that motto. I figure I was elected to follow through and not cave in to conventional anything (unless it's a bad argument). The argument for health care is VITAL, and I don't think we're gonna end up with nothing for insisting it be done right.

My argument's always been for SP, and I will continue doing everything I can to make it so. Meanwhile, I'm finding that there are a lot of people driven by their ideology.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yay, MrMickeysMom.
We can get what we want but we won't if we capitulate and right now that appears what is happening.
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hell, I can't tell what's happening yet...
This is one battle where I have little idea of where the lines ARE being drawn. Too much Glen Beck, too much knee jerk and orchestrated "town hall meetings", which really are NOT. Too much money being spent by the biggest damned lobbyists on K street. A real sense of the "powers that be" saying, "let's pit them against each other to confuse the shit out of everybody and hope that general stupidity and fear win out!" G-ah!

I'm glad you said, "appears what is happening". Makes me wish I could see the future.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. You GO, MrMickeysMom!
:woohoo:
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