Ban Plastic Bags

[joefree1]

We just started using recycled cotton shopping bags from http://reusablebags.com. What a wonderful feeling. Our house is now free of those awful plastic bags every store gives out. And for our trash bags we use biodegradable bags.

So how do we get plastic bags banned across the Nation? Big applause to San Francisco for leading the way. :applause:

In Los Angeles the local government is considering a ban too. Here's an article from the L.A. Times about the ban considered by the L.A. Board of Supervisors.

L.A. County looks at options on grocery bags
Among ideas being considered by supervisors are recycling programs and a ban on plastic bags.
By Charles Proctor, Times Staff Writer
April 11, 2007

Los Angeles County officials agreed Tuesday to consider a range of options — including an outright ban — for dealing with the ubiquitous plastic grocery bags that can choke landfills, litter roadways, clog storm drains and kill marine life.

The Board of Supervisors unanimously directed the Department of Public Works to study the issue and report back in 90 days.

In addition to a ban, county officials will examine other options, such as establishing programs that encourage customers to buy reusable sacks or return plastic bags to the store.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/los_angeles_metro/la-me-plastic11apr11,1,5054682.story?track=rss

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. I suggest a $5 tax on all bags, and $5 deposit on all cans, bottles, and containers.

Even that can of corn should come with a $5 deposit on it.

Screw these nickel and dime deposits that are only on some bottles, and only in some states. Jackasses will still throw a bottle out the car window if it only cost 'em a dime. They won't toss that twelve pack, though, since they have $60 riding on it.

Make it national, and put it on anything and everything that could be recycled.

That'll ensure that people bring their shit back to the store for recycling, and that they'll use their own bags for hauling shit home. Might even inspire us to buy us less shit.

And as fo grocery or other retail bags - if lazy earth-hating jackasses can't be bothered to bring their own, make it a national $5 fee for every bag they use (even on produce), and use that money to clean up toxic sites and keep our national parks going.

[Missy M]

3. Most people couldn't afford to eat because they would...

be using all their money on $5 deposits. When I buy a can of corn the can goes into my recycle bin that my town provides me and I pay taxes for. I also recycle plastic bottles, etc.

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Deposits are paid back. That's the nature of a deposit.

It's the only way to ensure massive recycling, and the environment is enough crisis that I think it's the only viable option.

Might also inspire people to eat less shit out of cans and boxes, too.

[Missy M]

11. It still means you need money to pay $5 a bottle or can.....

even if you get it back. A six pack of bottled water would be $30 plus the cost of the water, there are many people who could not afford to initially pay that much.

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. So then don't buy the sixpack. Buy a gallon in one container.

Or don't buy any shit in cans or bottles to begin with.

It's not fucking rocket science.

One gallon of water for 40 cents (what it cost here for one gallon of filtered water at the grocery store) and a $5 deposit, or one almost-gallon of water distributed in one six-pack of twenty-ounce bottles for $3.00 plus a $30 deposit.

Geez - is it that difficult to figure out?

[Missy M]

31. No it's not difficult to figure out....

or should it be difficult to figure out a $5 per container deposit is ridiculous.

[Clark2008]

69. Who in the hell is going to buy beer in a gallon jug?

Beer goes flat nearly instantly and a jug would make it taste awful. Sodas are the same.

I understand your concern in wanting to protect the environment, but, honestly - use some common sense.

There would be no way a single mother of two could afford a $400 grocery bill for the initial cost of all the deposits. Not to mention, no one would want to finish a left-over gallon jug of soda or beer, so we'd all be wasting produce.

Please.

[tblue]

4. $1 would do it. And FINE stores when their clerks put your ONE item in a bag.

[A Simple Game]

14. So you are willing to lay out $120 dollar deposit on a case of water?

What kind of a deal would you get if you got 30 bottles for the price of 24? Cost you another 30 bucks wouldn't it.

I can imagine areas where you wouldn't make it to your car just because you bought a can of soda.

Then again, you just made my pantry worth more than my house!

[chelaque liberal]

17. Why buy cases of water? A Britta filter would purify the water

and there wouldn't be a bottle to pay a deposit on.

[liberalEd]

19. Raising bottle deposits will backfire anyway

Most people just put empty bottles in the city's recycle bin because it's not worth making an extra trip to get your deposit back.

The city uses the deposits to subsidize the recycling service.

Raise the deposit significantly, and all of a sudden it will become foolish not to claim your deposits. Now the city's recycling program is screwed, and people will make extra car trips (using petroleum, polluting the environment) to get their deposits.

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. Recycling program screwed? No it wouldn't be.

It would be enhanced.

Instead of curbside recycling, the city only need to go pick up the stuff at the few grocery stores. Less gas used, not more. Most people will bring their deposits back when they get more groceries - few will make an extra trip just to bring back empties.

More stuff will get recycled, not less, because it would be too fucking expensive to throw stuff away, whether in the trash or along the highway.

[liberalEd]

42. No, you misunderstood

A lot of people right now put our deposit-pending bottles in the city's recycle bin. The city picks those up and cashes in the deposit, and keeps it as part of the revenue generated by the recycling program. This money helps underwrite the cost of running the recycling program for other stuff.

In a way these people are donating their deposit to the city.

However, while we may not worry about a few cents a bottle, I'd assure you I would worry if it was a dollar a bottle. That particular revenue source would be lost to the city. The city would then either have to raise fees (which as always hurts the poorest people) or cut back on recycling.

You have to worry about unintended consequences. Frankly, with the deposit at its current level I don't see a lot of bottles lying around in parks. None actually. I see other trash, but not empty bottles. The evidence is that current deposit levels are enough incentive.

[Clark2008]

70. Curbside recycling?

What's that?

Most cities don't even have that to begin with.

[Rabrrrrrr]

22. I would stop buying environmentally harmful bottled water.

And go for the free stuff out of the tap.

I think we'd see a drastic decrease in use of the "convenient" earth-killing shit we seem to be addicted to.

[A Simple Game]

51. Must be a lot of taps where you live.

Not too many in the rural area I live in.

Personally I think paying a dollar or more for a bottle of water not including a deposit is foolish, but then I have very good water where I live. I do occasionally buy a bottle of water or soda though. I'm sure you can think of a time when it would be necessary, or at least convenient to do so.

I'm sure you know that many people don't have the luxury of good water wherever and whenever they want it. There must at least be a demand, if not a need, for bottled water, the stores seem to sell a lot of it.

But none of that proceeding had to do with my original post, which had to do with the deposit you want to charge. What would you have us do if a bottle got broken, or lost. I have bottles of extracts and spices in my pantry that have been there for a very long time, I have a case of oil in the cellar. I'm sure I could come up with a few hundred dollars in deposits you would have me pay out knowing I wouldn't be getting it back for a very long time.

When New York started the 5 cent deposit on all carbonated drink containers, the litter problem decreased immensely. Why do you feel that a prohibitive 5 dollar deposit is necessary?

I go along with the idea of a deposit on all bottles and cans, but lets get real about the idea or no one will want to do it. Start with a nickel and if that doesn't work go to a dime. We would soon reach the point that most would be returned.

[robinlynne]

88. why are you buying water? according to public tv reports your tap water is

safer then bottled water, 75% of which is just tap water anyway. but the water in your kitchen sink is regulated, unlike bottled water....

[A Simple Game]

103. Don't believe everything you hear on TV.

My tap water at home is mine not municipal, we share a spring with a neighbor. My home water is very good water.

The water in the village where I work is probably safe, it is just not palatable, way too much chlorine, sometimes to the point of being cloudy. That is a problem in many small villages, they can't afford the staff for constant monitoring, so they over use the chemicals for a margin of safety.

That being said, I buy very little bottled water or soda, mostly because I feel it is too expensive even without a deposit. I rarely bring water to work. My wife works in the same village, and her boss buys the large five gallon bottles of water for the six people that work there out of his own pocket.

My point was not about buying water, that was just an example, although many people must want to or need to buy bottled water because there is so much of it in the stores. My point was the excessive amount of the proposed deposit. Do you want to pay a five dollar deposit on a bottle of almond extract that may be on your shelf for five or ten years? How about a can of baking powder? A case of oil? I have a 12 can case of mushrooms sitting in my pantry that would cost me sixty dollars for the deposit at 5 dollars a can. I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea.

I can envision people breaking into stores to steal the empty cans and bottles, a medium sized garbage bag could easily hold 500 dollars worth of empty 16oz. cans or bottles. Pound for pound empties could very well be the most expensive thing in a store, I doubt they want to have that laying around tempting an employee to steal. The temptation for the store to undercount your returns would be very high. Most small stores would not want to have to have all of that extra money on hand.

How would you stock food pantries?

The proposal was way out of line, unless it was hyperbole, and makes any legitimate discussion about a return deposit harder to even get started.

[robinlynne]

110. in Brazil, the system works this way. You have to buy bottles once. I don't remember the price, but

it is expensive. Every household has 10 or so bottles. if you want to buy beer or soft drinks you must take the empty bottles with you to buy them. Everyone has a straw bag to put the bottles in. You give the store 5 bottles, and can buy 5 bottles of beer. really simple. The bottles are washed and reused, never thrown away. This is a simple system, the bottles are expensive. It works beautifully. It is a onetime purchase, then you have free bottles for life. No waste. nothing goes to a landfill. It's just a matter of getting used to taking the bottles with you when you go to buy your drinks. There are only two sizes and two prices. You think i wont work because of our american consumer mentality. We need 50 different sizes. We need fast. We can't be bothered to take a bottle to the store with us when we go shopping. Those attitudes are easy to change, and will, as they already have in europe.

in Switzerland you can buy a small blue garbage bag for 15.00, which includes the price for the government service of picking up your trash, which can ONLY be placed in that bag. You have a choice: If you take recyclables to the recycling center, you can then get rid of that unwanted trash for free. if you want to put it into a garbage bag and have it picked up, you pay big bucks. so, now everyone recycles. simple.

[A Simple Game]

111. Look, I'm sorry I used water as an example.

We could probably make it work for drinks, we do in New York right now for all carbonated drinks with just a five cent deposit.

Below is from post #1, the post I responded to that started this.

"I suggest a $5 tax on all bags, and $5 deposit on all cans, bottles, and containers."

"all cans, bottles, and containers."

Can you imagine the cost of your first trip for the weeks groceries? Yes he even wants a five dollar deposit on your can of corn. I usually buy veggies and other staples by the case of twelve, that's sixty dollars for just the deposit. You don't see anything wrong with that?

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I use wicker baskets myself.

What about garbage bags? My town mandates using them instead of "unwrapped" garbage in brown paper bags.

[joefree1]

6. How about biodegradable bags?

You can get them here:
http://www.kokogm.com/Green_Market/BiodegradableTrashBags.html

[no_hypocrisy]

10. Thanks!!! Will do.

[Beaverhausen]

48. that's a great website- tons of "green" stuff there

:hi:

[Warpy]

9. I've used wicker baskets in the past and found them cumbersome

but I bought a couple of fake leather shopping bags in the open air market in Boston 20 years ago. They're holding up just fine, although the handles are starting to wear. When they go, I'll just go to a leather goods shop and have new ones put on.

I also have a couple of canvas bags for smaller loads and a couple of string bags for those loaves of bread and heads of lettuce in the summer.

I still get plastic bags on other shopping trips and I use them instead of plastic food wrap much of the time. If I have too many sitting around, I recycle them.

I love those fake leather bags. They hold as much as one of the old paper shopping bags and there's no chance the cans will burst through the bottom in the middle of the parking lot. They also don't tear like plastic bags do and I'll never have to try to pick stray ones out of the trees.

People get charged for plastic bags in much of Europe so they tend to use them on subsequent shopping trips. I wish we'd do that here.

[cgrindley]

28. I'm not using anything that will provoke justifiable ridicule

a wicker basket in Stop and Shop? You've got to be kidding.

[hedgehog]

37. That's what the city here did. When mandatory recycling was instituted,

all garbage had to go into a clear plastic bag to ensure that everyone was in compliance. I thought it kind of missed the point, myself. As an extra bonus, dogs and other animals enjoy ripping the bags open and scattering the garbage all over town.

[phusion]

7. Where do you buy biodegradable trash bags?

I would like to go bag-free myself.

[joefree1]

8. Here

http://www.kokogm.com/Green_Market/BiodegradableTrashBags.html

[Morgana LaFey]

41. have they improved the technology -- A LOT??? because these

were NOT such a good ecological thing when they were first introduced. Sure the stuff degraded into basically a powder, but then it just sat there on the ground never degrading further. NOT GOOD.

I think the hand crocheted or knitted or felted bags are topnotch, but you can also buy crochet-style bags that are about the same size as most of those ugly plastic bags. Or just cotton or canvas tote bags.

[youthere]

12. we take canvas tote bags with us when we go grocery shopping...

and ask the bagger to pack our items in them. On the occasions where I just need one or two items I don't take a bag. I just carry the items out by hand or in my purse or coat pockets (after paying of course!)

[Beaverhausen]

32. Do you get funny looks when you say "I don't need a bag?" I do.

salespeople look at me like I have 2 heads when I tell them that.

I bought two little things of makeup last night at Sephora and told the woman that I'd just put them in my purse. She looked stunned. Like I need that big tote bag for these two little things.

[progressoid]

34. Yep - all the time!

Why do I need a bag for one loaf of bread? It's already in a bag!

[CrispyQ]

53. How about a bag for a jug of milk with a handle?

That always gets me!

[uppityperson]

90. How about a bag for cat litter? Or shoes?

They are already in boxes and will touch "dirty" things soon anyways.

[athena]

56. Grrr.

They give me a bag credit of 3 cents per bag, but that's 3 cents for each of my bags. Each of my bags saves them 5-10 plastic bags (what with double-bagging and all). The bag credit is not the main reason I use reusable bags, but it's the principle of the thing that bothers me. This is why stores should start charging for plastic bags (as they apparently do in Europe), as opposed to giving a credit for people's own bags.

I don't understand why some people view cotton-bag users as snobs. Over the six-or-so years that I have been using cotton bags, I've prevented thousands of plastic bags from going into landfills or oceans.

[youthere]

76. Yes, all the time, they usually say "Are you SURE?"

Yep. I'm positive.

[Clark2008]

71. Most of you must do your shopping nearly daily.

A couple of tote bags wouldn't hold all of our weekly groceries.

Note: I'm all for limiting the number of plastic bags and wish the checkers would put more things in a bag, rather than putting one or two items, but there simply are people who live in the country or suburbs who don't pick up their shopping daily or every other day - it wastes too much gasoline to do that. They shop weekly or bi-weekly and would have to carry LUGGAGE to the store in order to shop.

[youthere]

79. I shop once every two weeks for a family of five...

that's not including when I have to pick up a gallon of milk or some lettuce or something. We take 15 tote bags of varying sizes into the grocery store with us. That's usually more than enough. Sometimes stuff like boxes of crackers or cereal are packed into the trunk loose because there isn't enough room in the bags.
You can pick up tote bags at garage sales and second hand stores like goodwill cheap cheap cheap...or if your house is like ours, just put two in a closet and they'll breed-at least it seems that way.

[athena]

96. I shop once every two or three weeks, and I own four bags.

I usually only need two or three. My refrigerator can barely contain all the stuff I bring home with me. Before you make up your mind that cloth bags wouldn't work for you, why not give it a try?

[medeak]

13. thanks! these look very strong n/t

[TheWraith]

15. You know that plastic bags are recycleable, right?

Pretty poor reason to ban something.

[Beaverhausen]

18. How many people recycle them? 100,000 sea animals are killed...

...each year from ingesting plastic bags. That is a great reason to ban them.

http://www.plasticbageconomics.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=31

Environmental Damage

The environmental damage caused by plastic bags is enormous. Plastic makes up 80% of the volume of litter on roads, parks, and beaches and makes up 90% of floating litter in the ocean (BEC). In every square mile of ocean there are over 46,000 pieces of plastic. This puts an enormous strain on the environment. The little pieces of plastic act as a sort of sponge for chemicals. They soak up a million fold greater concentration of such deadly compounds as PCBs and DDE (a breakdown product of the notorious insecticide DDT), than the surrounding seawater (Reusablebags.com). Marine life then eats these pieces and dies. It is estimated that over a 100,000 different birds, seals and whales die every year (Reusablebags.com). After the animal dies its carcass decomposes and the plastic is free to roam the ocean and kill again.

more at the link

[joefree1]

45. No, plastic bags are not recycled

First of all, recycling rates for plastic bags are extremely low. Only 1 to 3% of plastic bags end up getting recycled.

Secondly the economics of recycling plastic bags are not appealing. From the process of sorting, to the contamination of inks and the overall low quality of the plastic used in plastics bags, recyclers would much rather focus on recycling the vast quantities of more viable materials such as soda and milk bottles that can be recycled far more efficiently. If the economics don't work, recycling efforts don't work.

E.g. It costs $4,000 to process and recycle 1 ton of plastic bags, which can then be sold on the commodities market for $32 (Jared Blumenfeld, director of San Francisco's Department of the Environment as reported by Christian Science Monitor).

Furthermore many bags collected for recycling never get recycled. A growing trend is to ship them to Third world countries like India and China which are rapidly becoming the dumping grounds for the Western world's glut of recyclables. Rather than being recycled they are cheaply incinerated under more lax environmental laws.

Even if recycling rates of plastic bags increased dramatically, it would not solve other significant problems, such as the use of non-renewable resources and toxic chemicals in their original production, or the inevitable glut of bags that end up littering our environment where they eventually breakdown into tiny toxic bits.

more ...
http://reusablebags.com/facts.php?id=5

[youthere]

81. I went to the store the other day and there is this empty lot...

not to far from the mall and now that all the snow is melted you could see literally hundreds of those bags all over that lot. (Iowa DUérs can see for themselves...in Cedar Rapids on Edgewood, just south of CRST.)

[chelaque liberal]

16. My person problem is with plastic bottles and styrofoam containers and

aluminum cans.

I live on a TVA reservoir and spend many hours each winter picking up all of the trash that is left on shore when the water level is lowered. I have hauled out 7 big trash bags so far this year and have barely made a dent in it. 75% of the trash is plastic bottles, and I have learned not to open and drain the ones with liquid in them because they are usually full of urine!!! There is alway a lot of glass too, which breaks and makes it a serious safety issue.

I usually work myself into a rage doing the shore cleaning. How can people live in an area as beautiful as eastern TN and disrespect it so much? How can people be such slobs?

I am a nurse and every hospital I have worked in uses mountains of styrofoam-all the coffee cups and to-go containers from the cafeteria. The trash cans in the break rooms are always stuffed to capacity after each meal. Recycling aluminum is usually not allowed because of insect problems.

[AnnInLa]

20. Terrific!!

And those nonbiodegradable disposable diapers. I know I'm old, but I washed cloth diapers in a washing machine, and then dried them outside on a clothes line. When we got a little $$ (we were poor students at LSU), we bought an AUTOMATIC CLOTHES DRYER, boy, we were in "high cotton" then. Yeah, it's a lot of work, yeah it's a stinky, messy job, but I feel plastic, disposable diapers should be banned.

[Beaverhausen]

21. I already use canvas bags for most of my shopping. They are great

Far more comfortable to carry and they hold a lot.

When I'm at a store and the bagger still insists on putting some of my items in bags I am starting to get very mouthy about it; "you are creating too much waste." I mean, putting items that come with a handle into a bag drives me crazy!!!

[cgrindley]

23. See? This is what I'm talking about...

a complete global ban on refining petro-chemicals would help, but a ban on plastic bags won't do squat except make a few yuppy boomers feel that they're doing their part. No amount of trader joe reusable grocery bags is going to slow down anthrogenic climate change one little bit.

[Beaverhausen]

26. Please read post #18 above

plenty of reasons to ban this things.

[guitar man]

25. ban plastic bags?

no, don't ban them, they could prove useful. The Repigs may have a desire to pull them over their heads before long :evilgrin:

[mod mom]

29. I have been using a combo of cloth and recycled pop bottle shopping bags

I purchased them at the grocery stores (cloth from Trader Joe, Recycled pop bottle from Whole Foods and Sunflower Market) I prefer the reycled opo bottle bags as they are easily cleaned. The ones at Sunflower Market are only $.99/bag. I am planning to buy some for my childrens teachers for a year end gift with a note on the importance of their use.

I always keep a folded bag in my messenger bag (purse) in case of need. Comes in handy quite often.

[dysfunctional press]

30. most grocery stores use bio-degradable plastic bags made from cornstarch.

why would i want to ban them? i LOVE them. they have hundreds of household uses.

[Morgana LaFey]

44. please see my post upthread -- NOT GOOD SOLUTIONs

ALSO -- in order for them to degrade, you have to make sure they're thrown on the ground somewhere, NOT in some landfill, or in a non-biodegradable plastic bag which most of us use for our outgoing trash.

Please consider something else.

[dysfunctional press]

64. when they stop making them, i'll consider something else.

until then- i'll continue using them exactly as i have been.

[Morgana LaFey]

67. Okay, just don't delude yourself that you're doing something GOOD

for the environment. And don't try to snow us, either. That means the self-congratulatory pat on the back is inappropriate. But you knew that.

[dysfunctional press]

75. i don't do it for the environment- i do it to get my groceries home...

in the most convenient manner. plus i don't have to buy garbage bags, because i use the plastic grocery bags.

savings, convenience, and reusability- now THAT deserves a pat on the back.

[Morgana LaFey]

86. Yes, it's quite clear you don't do it for the environment.

[Beaverhausen]

104. And here I thought progressives cared about the environment

silly me...

[dysfunctional press]

112. a lot of them even drive cars, when they don't HAVE to.

most people would be able to survive without an automobile- lots of people do, and generation upon generation did it for centuries.

but it wouldn't be as convenient a lifestyle.

so we choose to drive. rather than walk, or ride a bike or something else.

it's all in the name of convenience.
no matter how fuel efficient a person's car is- it's still going to be worse for the environment than a bicycle.

but it wouldn't be as convenient.

so we ALL make our various choices.

i choose to us and re-use plastic grocery bags, and i will continue to do so as long as it's legal.
unless something more convenient comes along.

[ronnykmarshall]

33. Ok ... I all for using eco friendly bags and so on ...

So, I have some questions as to how I could make my own shopping habits more green.

1. We go to the grocery store once a week and purchase around $150 to $250 worth of items. Which means we have probably around 10 or more bags of groceries.

2. Many people here are suggesting canvas bags. But to cover the amount of stuff we get a week, we would need a shit load of these.

3. The whole $5 deposit suggestion is a joke. Sorry. That's just crazy.

[piedmont]

36. In GA, Kroger sells really nice cloth grocery bags for $1 each.

I hope more stores do this soon.

[nam78_two]

38. Yeah I use cloth bags too

I got many of mine from enviromental groups over the years actually.
If you have a lot of stuff, there are some pretty large ones out there. Helps build muscle tone too ;).

[Beaverhausen]

39. Canvas bags hold about 3-4 times what a plastic bag holds

you might need 4-5. I have at least that many. I just keep them in my car and bring them into the store when I go in. They are way more comfortable to carry.

[ronnykmarshall]

43. Coolness!

The only draw back is that we get always get paper and plastic and use them for trash bags in the house. Here's why we have to use both.

We live in a condo and use a trash chute (were on the 4th floor). We are supposed to have our trash bags sealed up (tied up or something like that).

If we stopped getting bags at the store we're going to have start buying trash bag for the house. We've already had to start buying small trash bags for the kitty litter clean up. Three cats, two boxes ...... not an aromatic pleasure! I have to clean them out twice a day. I wish I could teach them to use the bathroom.

[Beaverhausen]

46. I know. I still use plastic and paper bags on occasion

and yes, mostly for the cat litter. But you'll be amazed at the uses your canvas bags will have - not just groceries. They are very handy!

But you can cut down a lot on the plastic even if you take one or two to the store with you.

And there are biodegradable plastic bags you can get for your trash. I believe there is a link somewhere in this thread. I get Seventh Generation brand at Whole Foods.

[joefree1]

50. Canvas bags have these cool long handles

You slip your arm through and hang one or two from your shoulder. I keep five in the car and five at home for when I'm going to the grocery stores. The other day I carried in six bags at once from the car to the house holding all the long handles.

Sometimes I use news papers to line the trash cans. One double page on the bottom and then line the sides with more pages. By folding them over the top of the trash container they stay in place.

[athena]

47. There are such things as trash bags made of 100% recycled plastic.

Please don't take this the wrong way, since it's not directed solely at you, but frankly, I think the "I need grocery-store bags for the garbage" argument is just a lame excuse. If you think about it, you probably get many, many more bags from the grocery store than you actually need for garbage. Furthermore, even if you buy non-recycled garbage bags, you will be using less plastic for the same amount of garbage than you would with those tiny grocery-store bags.

I've been using cotton bags for six or more years. They not only hold a lot more than plastic bags, but they are also much more comfortable to carry. When they get dirty, you can throw them in the washer along with the rest of the laundry. And they are much neater to store than oddly-sized plastic bags.

Seventh Generation makes recycled garbage bags (http://www.seventhgen.com/our_products/supplies/trash_bags.html) They're not widely available yet, but you can get them on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Seventh-Generation-Kitchen-13-Gallon-20-Count/dp/B000C7UXL2). If you just google seventh generation trash bags, you'll find lots of online stores that carry them.

[Lorien]

60. And these hemp bags hold even more:

http://www.reusablebags.com/store/heavy-duty-hemp-grocery-natural-black-sage-p-82.html

I can pack a week's groceries in just two! WAY more comfortable to carry. Plus, they don't fall over in the trunk very easily.

They also come in sage or natural.

[Clark2008]

72. How big are those?

My complaint above was that there was no way I could pack a week or two week's worth of groceries in a couple of tote bags. These look bigger, but quite honestly, they still don't look big enough to pack the groceries needed for four people and three dogs for a week.

I'm willing to give it a shot, though. Can you tell me the dimensions? And, have you ever used them?

[Lorien]

80. They hold the same volume as a standard brown paper grocery bag

(like those from Whole Foods). The big difference is that the strength of the hemp allows you to really pack them. Two sets would more than do it for you, I think. They're much easier to "wrangle" than anything the grocery store hands out, too.

[bleedingheart]

107. you have convinced me....I just placed my order

and am eagerly awaiting their arrival...

[youthere]

82. I shop every two weeks for a family of five.

I have fifteen tote bags of varying size I carry in the store. Not a big deal at all.

[MLFerrell]

35. That's utter lunacy.

I but groceries once a month. ALL of the stuff that I need. I don't drive, and the nearest grocery store is over 3 miles away. Even just walking from the bus stop to home would be impossible with paper bags. And there's no WAY that I would pay for eight to ten CLOTH bags, just because certain types have a gripe with plastic bags.

My $0.02...

[athena]

49. Cotton bags are much more comfortable to carry, and you would need at most four.

Even two would be enough for one person. One cotton bag holds as much as 4, or 5 plastic bags (or 8 or 10, since the stores love to double-bag everything). I walk four blocks to the grocery store, and I shop once every two or three weeks, and I can tell you that it is much easier to carry cotton bags (since you can put them over your shoulder) than plastic bags that cut off circulation to your hands.

[Yukari Yakumo]

61. Agree with you there

Banning plastic bags is utter lunacy. It's impractical and idiotic. Plus charging anything for bags would really hurt the middle-class and the poor.

And don't be too surprised if such a ban is taken to the task in the courts. (And I'll bet good money the law gets overturned.)

[PaulaFarrell]

99. It works fine in other places

Irish bag tax hailed success
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2205419.stm

"A tax on plastic shopping bags in the Republic of Ireland has cut their use by more than 90% and raised millions of euros in revenue, the government says. "

Are you seriously saying that middle-class (or even poor people) can't afford $2-3 per week if they choose to use plastic bags for their shopping? That's ridiculous.

It's amazing to me that taking positive steps to improve the environment by doing away with something as trivial as plastic bags (which incidentally we all managed without 30 years ago) yet uses vast amounts of resources worldwide while creating intractable litter problems, can be branded by someone as 'utter lunacy' or 'idiotic'. Please can we have your suggestions instead?

[uppityperson]

91. "certain types have a gripe with plastic bags" "Certain types"?

[Lorien]

109. THAT'S utter lunacy

walking to the bus stop with 30 PLASTIC bags????? That's how many plastic bags it would take to equal ten hemp grocery bags (like the ones I've posted above). How in the world do you walk to the bus stop with that many plastic bags cutting into your arms? My hemp bags have comfortable wide straps and can be worn on a shoulder or arm, plus they won't tear like a plastic bag. Ideal for those riding the bus.


But I guess I'm just one of those "certain types" (dirty environmentalists who prefer comfort and intact groceries to easy cheap plastic crap provided by the stores).

[Gormy Cuss]

40. It's important to note that San Fran only banned traditional plastic bags

Compostable plastic-like bags made of cornstarch and paper bags made from recycled material are still allowed -- no need for everyone to tote canvas bags everywhere. There are also exclusions for small businesses.

The step was taken after a two year voluntary program designed to reduce usage failed because businesses didn't keep up their end of the agreement.

[DireStrike]

52. I use the store bags as garbage bags

How much would it cost for me to get some kind of tie-able biodegradable bags, exactly the right size to fit down my garbage chute?

[athena]

54. You can get 100% recycled trash bags.

http://www.amazon.com/Seventh-Generation-Kitchen-13-Gallon-20-Count/dp/B000C7UXL2

You're telling me that store bags just happen to be "exactly the right size" but that you can't find trash bags that are the right size?

[DireStrike]

87. It's been a problem, yeah

not so much anymore now that the little door/drawer thing on the chute has been removed by another tenant. The grocery bags were never an exact fit, but nothing else was that size.

The last time we had a garbage can, the roaches nested in it and we had to throw it out. So the small, frequently changed grocery bags hanging from a doorknob provided the perfect solution.

These seventh generation products look good. I'd also have to consider the storage space for the massive quantities of stuff, as this is a studio apartment. (I'd try to buy $100 worth of stuff for the $20 discount.) And then there IS the cost... yes, they're 10-16c a bag, but... it's still a $30 or $40 chunk every now and then... plus the initial investment for canvas or cotton grocery bags... and would they still deliver them that way from the store? Meh.

Anyway thanks for the suggestion. I'll be considering it.

[athena]

98. If there is enough demand,

recycled plastic bags will become more widely available. It's really annoying that stores don't carry them. The grocery store I go to sells other Seventh Generation products (recycled paper towels, etc.), so I'm hoping they'll start selling those, too.

[Xithras]

55. I just ask for paper.

Lots of people commenting about plastic vs. cloth, and nobody is mentioning good, old fashioned paper bags. Easy to recycle, most are already made of post-industrial recycled material anyway, and they degrade nicely if one or two does happen to float away. Most decent stores even have them with little paper handles.

I live eight miles from the grocery store and shop once a month for five people. When we shop, we pull the back seat from my wifes minivan and completely fill the back with 20+ bags of groceries. Cloth or canvas isn't really an option. I could buy less at once, but that would mean more trips to the store, and more gas burned needlessly.

[athena]

57. Cloth bags hold at least as much as paper bags.

I actually think they hold more. They're sturdier, so you don't have to worry about over-packing them, which means you can put lots of very heavy things in each bag. I can put a gallon of orange juice and half-a-gallon of milk in one bag, and I still have space left over for fruits and small things. That's a relatively small bag; there are bigger ones at www.reusablebags.com. It's stuff like cereal that takes up a lot of space and requires extra bags.

Cloth bags seem expensive, but they last forever. You can use the same set of bags for 10+ years. They're also easier to carry than paper bags.

[Xithras]

62. Paper bags are free.

And I don't bag my own groceries. Ever. Doing so undermines the grocery unions and puts people out of work. I honestly can't remember the last time I bought groceries in a store that allowed you to bag your own groceries. So as great as they may be, the bagger is going to bag them just like any other.

And again, paper bags are free. They're relatively friendly to the environment, and they're a snap to recycle. They make great trash bags, and they break down cleanly in landfills when doing so. They're also convienient when lighting the fireplace or barbecue.

There is nothing wrong with cloth bags, they're just not very convenient when you are buying in volume. Paper works better for me.

[Beaverhausen]

63. You do know where paper comes from, right?

Think about getting a least one or two reusable bags. You will be hooked in no time.

[Xithras]

65. Yes, renewable resources.

In the stores I shop in, the bags are primarily composed of recycled paper and post-industrial wood waste (i.e., the bits and scraps of wood left over after the tree is cut into lumber). I've looked into it. I live a very green lifestyle.

And I have another question. What am I supposed to do with my twenty-odd empty canvas bags while I'm shopping?

[Beaverhausen]

66. Canvas bags hold more than paper. You will need less and you can just put them...

...in your cart. They don't take up that much room when they aren't full.

[youthere]

84. I take fifteen with me and I lay them over the cart handle or ..

drape them over the side. They do hold more than the plastic bags (I shop every two weeks for a family of five). I've never had a problem. Even if you just started carrying 1 or 2 canvas bags with you that's less plastic bags you're using, right?

[youthere]

83. I use canvas bags, and I don't pack my own groceries.

I simply hand them over to the person bagging and say politely "Would you mind packing in these? Thanks!". I've gotten an odd look here and there, but never have I gotten a refusal. Sometimes they even say "How cool!"

[uppityperson]

92. Ever shop at a smallish food co-op?

Bag your own groceries there to keep grocery costs down.

[Xithras]

93. I only shop union groceries.

I grew up in a family with a few people in grocer unions, and I know how they're getting hammered today. I respect the intent of the co-op's, but I reserve my purchases to unionized grocery stores. I do hit the farmers market now and then, but that's my only exception.

Principle over prices. If I were worried about cost, I'd shop at WalMart.

[uppityperson]

95. Principle over prices is why I shop our local food co-op.

Good food, some local, much organic, putting the money back into local pockets. Spending money in places that keeps it in the community, rather than a chain store. Even a unionized chain store.

What grocery stores are chains? That is a serious question because I really don't know. Thank you.

[athena]

97. What makes you think I bag my own groceries?

If you tell the bagger you brought your own bags, they will carefully put all your groceries in your bags. I try to help them, but they usually pack things better than I do, and often they finish bagging before I finish paying.

As for the "cost", cloth bags, as I mentioned earlier, last 10+ years, so they are actually very cheap. And the only reason paper bags are free is that stores don't (yet) make you pay for them (unlike the ones in Europe). Paper bags may not cost you anything, but they cost the environment energy and resources. And don't tell me cloth bags are "not very convenient when you are buying in volume". You may choose to use paper, but I have been using cloth bags for 6+ years, and you don't know better than I do whether my bags are convenient.

[Lorien]

58. I use these from the same site:

http://www.reusablebags.com/store/heavy-duty-classic-hemp-shopping-bags-p-20.html



They are tougher than any cotton bag I've ever owned, look great, hold loads of groceries, and are very comfortable to carry. I even get complements on them in the checkout line!

[bleedingheart]

102. I was thinking about buying some of those...

problem is that I typically go for big shopping trips...once a week and perhaps a side trip...so how many to purchase...so that I don't end up with plastic bags coming home...

[Little Wing]

59. I've had it too. I hate it when the bag your stuff and there's bags within bags

and cans of soup are deemed heavy enough to double-bag. It's ridiculous.

[AshevilleGuy]

94. I do not let them.

I say ONE bag, if you MUST use plastic. They look at me as if I were from Mars, and I stare back at them as if they were idiots. When I see mindless people pushing their carts out of a supermarket with about two items per bag I am disgusted, and wonder what they do with the damn things.

Then I drive down I-26 and the fucking bags are hanging from trees, carpeting the grass, all over the place. I wonder how they got there, because I have never seen anyone throw a bag out the car window.

Yes, BAN THE DAMN THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like that is going to happen... :eyes:

[Clark2008]

68. I recycle mine as garbage bags for the smaller trash recepticles

throughout the house.

If we ban them, we'd just have to buy more plastic bags for that purpose.

How 'bout LIMITING them?

[woo me with science]

73. Oh, please no!

We finally got our neighbors to pick up the poop.

[europegirl4jfk]

74. No plastic bags in our European supermarkets since several years now

At least in most of them now here in France and also in Germany. You have to bring your own bag(s) or you can buy recyclable bags from the supermarket that you can bring along the next time. Those are very solid but once they are worn out after several months or years, you just bring them back to the supermarket and you'll get new ones in exchange. I think that's a pretty cool system and people got used to it over the years.

[gollygee]

77. It's such an easy thing to do!

and they're so much easier to carry around!

:D

Bravo!

[lonestarnot]

78. My bags say "War is Costly, Peace is Priceless (empty boots)

[jasmeel]

85. Thanks for the link! n/t

[bluetrain]

89. I use plastic bags to line my cat's litter boxes & for garbage & recycling.

I can afford to spend about $25 a month on groceries. If you ban plastic bags and I'm forced to buy cat box liners and garbage bags -- Hell, I won't need garbage bags because I won't be able to afford to eat so won't have any waste to pitch. I don't see how me starving or being forced to send my cat to the pound is making the world a better place. Sure seems like there a lot more important battles to fight.

[joefree1]

100. You can't use biodegradable bags stores will give out free?

About newspaper? You put layer on the bottom and then line the sides. Folding the paper over the edges keeps the paper in place. Families used this technique before plastic bags became available.

I understand your concern for your cats but animals around the world are choking and starving on the tons of plastic bag bits polluting the earth. Please help them.

[bluetrain]

108. There are only a few different bags which have proven sturdy enough

to withstand the digging my cat does, the bags from Whole Foods being the most reliable. I don't know if they're oil based or made from corn starch or what; all I know that they're durable and serve two purposes for me.

I don't predict newspaper lasting more than half a day with her. I don't know how many trees a year that would equate to. And I can't plant trees where I live to make up the difference.

How sturdy are these biodegradable plastic bags? How long do they last? If they started degrading while still lining the box, they wouldn't be of any use to me. Are they affected by temperature? I'm just picturing the street in NYC I used to live on, trash bags piled at the curb all the way down the block, the bags now decomposing in the summer heat, garbage tumbling all over the place. Are the corn starch based bags edible? Will the rats be able to chew right through them? Will the homeless we're increasingly not allowed by law to feed resort to eating bags? Will some clever manufacturer make bags in different flavors?

Of course, I don't want animals choking to death on bits of plastic bags, but I really feel we have more pressing pollution problems to address. I'd line my cat's box with marshmallows, if it would, actually, save the world. But this bag business seems to me like asking the person standing next to you at the crosswalk of Sunset & Highland during rush hour on a Friday in the noxious haze of car exhaust to put out their cigarette because their smoke is bothering you. The oil addiction has created larger problems than bags that don't disentigrate. It just seems like a waste of energy to me when there are such larger battles that need to be fought.

[slackmaster]

101. How about aggressively enforcing the existing ban on littering?

At $1,000 a pop, the cities, counties, and the state could take care of their deficit problems in no time.

[noonwitch]

105. I reuse the plastic bags-to line my paperbaskets, to haul my wet swimsuit home from the pool, etc.

I like the plastic bags. They keep messes contained.

[joefree1]

106. What about this mess?

But then what's a few more dead dolphins, otters, seals, birds, turtles, etc., ... :sarcasm: