CIA Domestic Operations Division: DU thread #3

[bobthedrummer]

Both the first collaborative thread about the CIA domestic operations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6095958

and the second thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6147784

have been archived.

Let's talk about what the CIA, against its own charter, has been up to here at home over the years. Btw, that icludes all those Wally Hilliard air assets.

[H2O Man]

1. One of the things

that I think is important to keep in mind is the history of the CIA's formation. As most DUers know, there was always some form of "military intelligence," since the Revolutionary War. As a general rule, this involved people known as spies, who could access information on "the enemy."

In 1941, FDR began the first peace time intelligence group, outside of the military, when he appointed William Donovan to head up the effort as the Coordinator of Information (COI). With the US entry into WW2 later that year, the group became the Office of Strategic Services. This, of course, became the CIA under Truman.

As COI, Donovan began the practice of using former military intelligence officers who had almost without exception gone to work for the oil industry, to collect intelligence. Their role in oil allowed them the cover they needed to access and secure intelligence. In a literal sense, they were employed in a context of private business intelligence, and in that way, were not entirely unlike Blackwater -- except they wore suits & ties far more often.

When it comes to discussions of the CIA on DU, there are a couple other important points that I would keep in mind. First, there is a large amount of "sharing" of agents and human resources, with both military and private business sources. (This had originally been the way they could spy on US citizens.) Second, although there have been and still are good and decent people doing important jobs within the agency, it still is run both by and for the private businesses that we call the military-industrial complex.

[ThomWV]

4. The CIA is not engaged in Military Intelligence

Make the distinction. Military Intelligence is that intelligence concerned with the battlefield and those matters which effect an Army or Navy - it is the intelligence that Generals and Admirals use to do their important work. The CIA engages in international intelligence for use by the Executive Branch. That is the intelligence that the President uses to made decisions in all his duties. The two are not the same thing but its constantly confused (on purpose I suspect) in the press and even here.

Same thing about torture by the CIA being confused with prisoner abuse by military people. Not the same thing but the two are confused constantly.

[alfredo]

6. I was MI 65 to 69. I was ASA. We didn't answer to the CIA. We answered

to Ft Meade. They broke their charter with CoIntel and in numerous ways under GWB. We saw the CIA as a bunch of glory boys.

One I knew is still on the inside as a privateer. He was smart, amiable, and amoral. As much as I liked him he turned me off of joining the CIA/State Department. It was just too corrupt for my tastes. He was the one that told me that if I was in Dakar at a certain date I might get to meet Mariam Makeba (he was right). He was the one that turned me on to Isaac Hayes. (Hot buttered Soul) He introduced me to Mahindru, Jomo Kenyatta's right hand man, Harrar Hashish, "alternate" uses for the diplomatic pouch, Alssopp Pilsner and Masala burgers.

[dgibby]

11. Alfredo, does this sound like MI to you?

I posted it in the 1st thread. Supposedly, the training for whatever he was involved in occurred at the Army base in El Paso.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6095958#6097096

[alfredo]

14. yes. Even what is known in that thread could be a cover.

I only speak about the USS Liberty because it involved a betrayal by Israel and the US government.


My wife still doesn't know what I did while I was in the military. That's about the only area where I've deceived her with half truths and outright lies. It hurts being dishonest to her, but it was a promise I made long before I knew her.

Read James Bamford's "Body of Secrets."

Here's what people stateside knew of our station.

http://kagnewstation.com/news/stateside/nytimes1970.html

The salute canon mentioned didn't just shoot blanks, it also shoots gravel, toilet paper, and pink panties.

[dgibby]

15. I'm retired Navy.

The attack on the Liberty still makes my blood boil.

As for my brother, I wasn't aware of his "extra-curricular activities" until after his death, but I had my suspicions. I definitely don't buy the SS part. He got a little sloppy in his old age, especially as Alzheimer's set in. I caught him in several lies of a personal nature (he NEVER mentioned his work). My SIL adhered to the don't ask, don't tell. She didn't want to know.

[alfredo]

16. My sister is still freaking out from the FBI vetting in 65.

We were the party animals of the military. We even had an investigation over alcohol use. They thought we were selling it on the black market, but they found that we were drinking it. A bit of Scotch steadied the hand at the Telegrapher's Mill. A lot of Scotch steadied the mind.

http://kagnewstation.com/

[bobthedrummer]

22. alfredo, some MI personnel were "loaned" to the CIA on various pretexts, they worked here at home...

"From Monterey Pop to Altamont

OPERATION CHAOS

The CIA's War Against the Sixties Counter-Culture" by Mae Brussell (November 1976)

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%20Articles/Operation%20Chaos.html

[ControlledDemolition]

53. Does Division 5 of the FBI ring any bells? I've only come across limited references to it. n/t

[H2O Man]

9. I'll agree and disagree......

....and in what is intended as being in an entirely respectful manner.

There are distinctions, as you accurately note. But there is also overlap. For example, we can look to the recent issue regarding Niger and yellow cake. Army intelligence and the State Department had already investigated the rumors of sales to Iraq, and concluded the rumors were just that. The noble Vice President then pressured the CIA for the third investigation. If Saddam was, in fact, pursuing a WMD program that included acquiring yellow cake beyond the Iraqi supply the UN had under lock & key, it would have been important to State/CI in one context, and to the military in a distinct, though related context.

Various intelligence agencies -- including some that are generally considered domestic -- have ties to one another, including the sharing of human and other resources. Likewise, one can look at the infamous Huston Plan from the Nixon era (which was, in effect, the first Patriot Act) to find other examples of coordinated efforts that went beyond assessing potential foreign battlefields. The US Army's monitoring of Dr. King in Memphis in 1968 comes to mind.

In regard to the military abuse issue, there have been reports of CI staff on hand in military facilities, coordinating these efforts. I do not pretend to know if these are accurate or not. I suspect that keeping an open mind is an advantage.

[cascadiance]

5. This shrouding of their careers in the private sector also was the MO for "economic hit men"....

that John Perkins was and documented in his book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man".

By him working for the private sector (at the behest of the government), they could distance themselves more from being "official" arms of the government, in case some dubious operations were exposed. If they were exposed, then it was just treated as some rogue company that got in trouble, and the government could keep its distance from what was happening. I'm guessing the CIA was doing similar strategies for similar reasons.

[bobthedrummer]

23. "US Still Paying Blackwater Millions" by Jeremy Scahill (8-7-09 Truthout.org)

http://www.truthout.org/080809C?n

[Echo In Light]

27. Thanks for posting

[bobthedrummer]

29. The self-proclaimed "masters of the mind fuck" that belong to the American Psychological Association

and the American Psychiatric Association, these torturers that may not literally get their hands bloody, that was one of the most censored stories from 2008.

"APA Complicit in CIA Torture" (9-18-08 Project Censored.org)
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/10-apa-complicit-in-cia-torture/

There's the "genius of capitalism" these scum crow about, Echo In Light.

Both APA's set the standards for aspiring "masters of the mind fuck" like Mitchell, Jessen and Associates as well as your local politicized "mental health professionals".

[NoSheep]

7. H2O Man,

Do you have any specific/recommended citations regarding this item:

"As COI, Donovan began the practice of using former military intelligence officers who had almost without exception gone to work for the oil industry, to collect intelligence. Their role in oil allowed them the cover they needed to access and secure intelligence."

Thanks in advance.

NoSheep

[H2O Man]

8. Off the top

of my head, I'd say that Russ Baker's "Family of Secrets" (Bloomsbury Press; 2009) is a good source. Baker provides good sources in his foot notes, too.

[NoSheep]

10. Thanks.

[dgibby]

12. Wasn't Poppy Bush involved in this?

Wasn't his Zapata Co. a front for the CIA or am I confused?

[H2O Man]

13. Right.

A perfect example.

[bobthedrummer]

21. Shades of Clint Murchison! Where's today's Henry B. Gonzalez???...

:thumbsup:

[ControlledDemolition]

55. George De Morenschiltd (sp?) is a good example of this. n/t

[AntiFascist]

2. Great link here...

this summarizes the drug running connections of Hilliard's operations to Iran-Contra and the Anti-Castro operations:

http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-482-interview-with-daniel-hopsicker/

27. The environment in which the Magic Dutch Boys and their Godfather Hilliard operated (and through which the 9/11 hijackers were infiltrated into the United States) was the same Florida intelligence environment so familiar to veteran listeners from discussion of the Iran-Contra scandal. This same Florida/Caribbean/Central America environment had been a hotbed of covert action since the Bay of Pigs and the anti-Castro activities of the early 1960’s. The activities highlighted in Daniel Hopsicker’s marvelous book are part of the extension of that environment. A passage about Frank Moss—one of the Iran-Contra related drug smugglers who operated in the Charlotte County area—should serve to underscore the extent to which the activities chronicled in Welcome to Terrorland are, as Yogi Berra said “Déjà vu all over again.” “ . . . Moss had been under investigation for narcotics offenses since 1979, it turned out, by no less than ten different law enforcement agencies. But America is the land of the second chance, and thus Moss was one of the first pilots chosen to fly Contra supply missions. He was there at the inception of the ‘contra cocaine’ business run with the tacit approval of shadowy government figures like then-CIA Director Bill Casey.” (Ibid.; p. 124.)

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobthedrummer]

18. University of Wisconsin-Madison alumnus Wallace J. Hilliard, his associates and family merit a post

(August 18, 2007-from an interesting parent thread)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=186x21683#21906

[bobthedrummer]

42. Thanks to the continuing efforts of Daniel Hopsicker many of Wally Hilliard's domestic enterprises

(as well as his international ones) that are linked to the Agency have become known to those of US that rely on open sources.

"Huffman Aviation Was 'Continuing Criminal Enterprise'" by Daniel Hopsicker (7-27-09 Madcow Morning News)
http://www.madcowprod.com/07272009.htm

"Pilots in 9/11 Intrigue Flew for Russian Mob" by Daniel Hopsicker (8-6-09 Madcow Morning News)
http://www.madcowprod.com/08062009.htm

[bobthedrummer]

17. There's a lot to consider, so far. Thanks to all participants, so far. I'll be back tomorrow n/t

"MH CHAOS/Operation CHAOS became the International Terrorism Group" (June 4, 2004)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1717968

[bobthedrummer]

19. "Former Top Navy Psychologist Involved in Pre-9/11 Prisoner Abuse Case" by Jeffrey Kaye 8-5-09

(Truthout.org)

"A well-known spokesperson for ethical interrogations by psychologists in national security settings was himself accused in 2001 of unethical behavior for his part in the interrogation of a suspect in an espionage case."

http://www.truthout.org/080509U

[bobthedrummer]

20. Vanity Fair Exposes How Two Psychologists Shaped the CIA's Torture Methods (unhappycamper thread

started 7-31-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1478152

Internal Rifts on Road to Torment-Interviews Offer More Nuanced Look At Roles of CIA Contractors (kpete thread started 7-19-2009)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6101849

[bobthedrummer]

24. "Criminal Investigation into CIA Treatment of Detainees Expected" by Greg Miller & Josh Meyer

(8-9-09 LA Times via Truthout.org)

"U.S. Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. is poised to appoint a criminal prosecutor to investigate alleged CIA abuses committed during the interrogation of terrorism suspects, current and former U.S. government officials said."

http://www.truthout.org/080909R?n

Here's an important companion piece to this latest news, from May-

"Cheney and Rumsfeld pressured CIA to mislead Congress in the 1970's, too"
by Margie Burns (5-27-09 Online Journal)

"The first time Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld pressured the CIA to mislead Congress was in 1975 and 1976, when Cheney was chief of staff to President Gerald Ford and Rumsfeld was Ford's secretary of defense."

http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4736.shtml

Add what you have to this thread, DU.

[BuyingThyme]

25. The DOD was created by Johnson to provide after-the-fact cover for the JFK assassination.

Howard Hunt was un-coincidentally among the first people assigned to the DOD. (Probably THE first.)

The cover-up was a domestic operation thus needed domestic "legitimacy."

[bobthedrummer]

26. Domestic Operations Division was officially launched in February 1963-headed by Tracy Barnes

so that would have been President Kennedy's decision. Still, South Vietnam's Diem was assassinated just prior to JFK-Lyndon Johnson did create the CIA's Special Operations Groups (as part of Counter-Intelligence) in August 1967.

Tracy Barnes page (from Spartacus Schoolnet)
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKbarnesT.htm

[BuyingThyme]

28. I may be confusing two acronyms, but I recollect Johnson creating DOD.

As I recall, Johnson got scared when Jim Garrison started messing with JFK in 1966. Because the CIA was naturally best suited to cover for their own crimes, he provided for the DOD.

Then again, if they decided to murder JFK in early 1963, perhaps they preemptively created the DOD at the same time.

I'm pretty sure Hunt was still DOD at the time of the Watergate break-in.

I'll have to go back and figure it out.

[bobthedrummer]

30. The acronym's are confusing Department of Defense, Domestic Operations Division, Directorate of Oper

ations, Directorate of Plans-etc.

The CIA's Domestic Operations Division with Tracy Barnes in charge was announced February 11, 1963-yet we both know that the type of "workload" entailed had been going on for some time-and, when the window of opportunity for real reform closed after Watergate, things just got worse.

Speaking of that window of wasted opportunity-below's a thread about the House's investigations into the intelligence community.

"The Pike Committee" (started 3-11-08)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2990965

[bobthedrummer]

31. Connecting the CIA's many domestic dots: Erik Prince, Alvin Krongard and J. Coffer Black

don't think for a moment that the article below pertains only to events outside the US-and, remember, there is no statute of limitations for murder regardless of all else.

"Blackwater should be blacklisted" by Linda S. Heard (8-12-09 Online Journal)

"The notorious private security company Blackwater, which now calls itself Xe Services, has become the center of a growing storm. In sworn statements filed in a US federal court on Aug. 3, two former employees allege that the company's founder and owner Erik Prince either murdered or arranged the murder of witnesses who were cooperating with federal investigators."

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_5006.shtml

Speak up DU-this is the time to share what we know about some of the reasons behind the "intelligence failures" since 1947-and what the CIA has been up to right here at home for decades.

[bobthedrummer]

32. "Good CIA, bad CIA and the root cause of the 'intelligence failure'" (started 5-31-2004)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1695779

[AntiFascist]

33. This is interesting...

"When Dulles spoke, Gehlen listened. The CIA chief was convinced, along with his brother, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles, that the "captive nations" of the Soviet bloc would rise up if given sufficient encouragement. At his behest, Gehlen recruited and trained an exile mercenary force ready to rush in without involving American units. Also at Dulles' direction, Gehlen tapped the ranks of his wartime Russian collaborators for a cadre of spies to be parachuted into the Soviet Union. Some of these spies were schooled at the CIA's clandestine base at Atsugi, Japan, where, in 1957, a young Marine named Lee Harvey Oswald was posted to the U-2 spy plane operation there."

[bobthedrummer]

34. That's still a stinking kettle of fish-and now Senator Magic Bullet theory is a Dem...

"In light of the assassination program, a few questions about some people I knew about..." (started by Octafish 7-17-09)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6089862

[AntiFascist]

35. How many people (including many former mafia) were conveniently executed in the 70s...

right before they were to testify before the House Sub-Committee on Assassinations?

[ControlledDemolition]

54. Johnny Roselli for one! n/t

[bobthedrummer]

36. "Porter Goss, CIA Director 2004-2006, claims ignorance of tapes' destruction. Right -oh." (seafan

thread started 12-7-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2425480

Where's Mr. Goss today???

[bobthedrummer]

37. "Memorandum For The Record January 31, 1975 Subject: Project ARTICHOKE" (pdf)

"ARTICHOKE is the Agency cryptonym for the study and/or use of 'special' interrogation methods and techniques. these 'special' interrogation methods have been known to include the use of drugs and chemicals, hypnosis, and 'total isolation', a form of psychological harassment..."

This is a National Security Archive pdf of a CIA memo that was written just before the post-Watergate congressional investigations. Take a couple of moments to read the entire doc and ask yourself, "who were the experimental subjects, where did this research take place...etc" and note the references to other projects and operations--it's an accurate chronological synopsis up to a point.

My point is that contrary to the charter of the CIA a lot of this "...study and/or use..." of drugs, chemicals, hypnosis, isolation and God knows what else were conducted right here in America on unwitting Americans, many of them US military and military families as well as citizens and groups "specially" selected--today it's much worse because of a much broader application that the BUSH/CHENEY era criminals approved in their "global war on terror".

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB54/st02.pdf

What do DU's members have to say about experiencing some of this?

[Octafish]

38. What about NSA's Domestic Role?

That agency was also chartered to spy on forners and stuff overseas.

Sen. Frank Church warned us in 1975 what could happen if its powers were turned on the American people -- we'd have zero chance at forming a political opposition.

Gee. Maybe that explains what's happened to the Democratic spine.

[bobthedrummer]

39. Not to mention the NRO...yep-or Buzzy Krongard's 'private" Iridium satellites, etc.

Alvin B. Krongard relationship map (Muckety)
http://www.muckety.com/Alvin-B-Krongard/30103.muckety

That aching back needs serious adjustment brother...

[Octafish]

40. Buzzy's Brother Big at Blackwater

Incestuous bunch of psychos running and profiting from national security bizinass:

Blackwater and the Brothers Krongard: How Cookie Crumbled

Wish more people liked to read. Our country would be a better place if they read you, bobthedrummer.

[boppers]

41. No such thing as "overseas" communications.

At least, not in the same way as before.

A few simple examples:
Anybody in, oh, Japan look at this thread on DU? It then becomes international communications. Send an email to 15 people, but one of them reads it from a hotel in Barcelona? International communications.

[bobthedrummer]

43. The worst domestic operations comes from Agency connected people that are "family" oriented

That includes allegations about former Church of Satan priest Lt. Col. Michael Aquino (DIA psy-ops "expert") that formed his own replacement religion (the Temple of Set) to minister to active US military-to Marion Pettie and The Finders case linked below

The Finders (10-8-06 LA Indymedia page)
http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/10/182025.php

to the Gosch/Gannon/Guckert mystery that was once widely speculated about here

"DC DUers need 'boots on the ground' for Gannon/Guckert..." (started by roseBudd 2-22-05)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=148x442

I think that's the worst of the worst, anything involving children in domestic black budget operations.

It isn't tinfoil, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls...

[bobthedrummer]

44. Just a reminder-AG Holder must reach a decision about appointing a special prosecutor (re CIA

torture) by Monday.

It's got to happen-start the indictments Attorney General Holder--restore the rule of law---we the people know this leads directly to CHENEY/RUMSFELD and GEORGE WALKER BUSH...

[bobthedrummer]

45. While we're discussing domestic operations let's not forget that the FBI didn't have the leadership

to pursue the CIA because of things like the Hoover era COINTELPRO's and worse...

"COINTELPRO in the 60s" excerpted from the book WAR AT HOME by Brian Glick (Third World Traveler)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/COINTELPRO60s_WAH.html

[bobthedrummer]

46. Rockefeller Commission Report Chapter 15: Domestic Activites of the Directorate of Operations

(University of Texas pdf)
http://www.ford.utexas.edu/LIBRARY/exhibits/Intelligence/RockComm_Chap15_Domestic.pdf

"Organized Crime, The CIA and the Savings and Loan Scandal (Third World Traveler)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/S%26L_Scandal_CIA.html

Look at how those Agency proprietaries keep popping up here at home...who's got some more examples?

[KoKo]

47. Thanks Bob..! K&R

[bobthedrummer]

48. Hi KoKo!

:hug:

[bobthedrummer]

49. I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about these issues-kick

Especially about the history of "contracting out" to proprietary fronts and/or clandestine use of legitimate institutions and agencies.

[bobthedrummer]

50. No one is above the law, it's a crime to conceal crimes behind national security classification-kick

[bertman]

51. The relationship between the CIA and the corporate media is particularly nasty for

undermining our democracy yet it has been well-established and fully operational since the 50's.

Under the guise of "national security" (sound familiar), print journalists in newspapers and national-circulation magazines, radio and teevee corporate heads and their field journalists were recruited to serve as the eyes and ears of the CIA during the perilous years of the Red Menace. Once the relationship was established it took on a life of its own, ending up with censored stories at the request of the agency, journalists acting as the eyes and ears in foreign countries and in the U.S. while on assignment. Not only were these journalists paid well for their cooperation, they were told that they were doing their country a great service. Knowing how much influence the CIA had with private interests, it's easy to see why some of these people would willingly cooperate in spying on their fellow citizens.

"Legacy of Secrecy" by Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann gives some attention to how the corporate media was used to manipulate public opinion as the Warren Commission was trying to cover up the methods and reasons for the JFK assassination, and later, the MLK and RFK assassinations.

No wonder we only get the "official version" when we tune in to the so-called "mainstream media".

[bobthedrummer]

52. It literally went into psychological operations during BUSH/CHENEY-and that's also illegal in the US

[ControlledDemolition]

56. Bob Woodward, among many others, need a closer look in this regard! n/t

[bobthedrummer]

57. Can Leon Panetta begin real reforms or has the compartmentation and "privatization" of intelligence

over the years precluded that possibility?

AG Holder, with what is publicly known about crimes committed as "policy" by the intelligence community, is mandated to investigate and indict criminals hiding behind the shield of "national security"-yet the DoJ itself was corrupted during BUSH/CHENEY through politicized leadership loyal to their Decider and his extremist RW "brain trust".

IMO the influence of real NAZIS that were blended into our intelligence community from its creation in 1947 is the major conceptual framework flaw underlying this mess.

What do you think, DU?

[bertman]

58. I think that the DOJ was corrupted waaayyy before the Bush years. They just didn't give

a damn about having an image of neutrality and adherence to law. Their arrogance and feelings of invulnerability lead them to be much more careless about covering up their misdeeds. Apparently they were not mistaken in how easily they could get away with their illegal machinations.

A lot of this began when Hoover ran the FBI. He kept dossiers on EVERY high-level official in government just so he could blackmail them into doing his bidding. Even though his personal secret files were allegedly destroyed, it's highly unlikely that the practice was eliminated when new FBI directors came into power.

As far as the Nazi influence, I don't know if the actual individuals were being used, but certainly their leaders were captured and their voluminous research and expertise was implemented and expanded upon by our government.

My $.02.

[bobthedrummer]

59. In 1978 William J. Casey founded the Manhattan Institutue for Policy Research-he became Reagan's CIA

Director. The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research is a tax exempt non-profit entity that is very much invested in promoting the privatization of everything-and it has the deepest of pockets and some of the spookiest skill sets of spooks to draw on to do whatever they do--including corporate welfare, a form of FASCISM.

To me, this is another example of something that belongs in this thread because it has effects on US that we really don't want at all.

The Manhattan Institute for Policy Research (Source Watch profile)
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Manhattan_Institute_for_Policy_Research

Manhattan Institute (Right Web page)
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Manhattan_Institute

[bobthedrummer]

60. Add to this thread DU, you know you'll feel better-kick

[bobthedrummer]

61. Last kick for the day, a day that has been full of news about the CIA and it's private assets-add to

this thread.