Apparently North Korea throws Hillary under the bus...

[ddeclue]

Looks like Bill won, Obama won, Kim Jong Il won, and the pardoned journalists won...

everybody won but Hillary... she's the SecState but Bill got to do the deal and get the glory and she got to sit on the sidelines.

[NoSheep]

1. It's a man's (fucked up) world.

[TexasObserver]

5. This is her triumph more than anyone's. She's the SOS who made it happen.

[rockymountaindem]

2. He got the call because he can act in an unofficial capacity

Sending the Sec. of State has symbolic implications and suggests higher-level contacts than sending the former President does. Remember, Bill Clinton is just a private citizen these days whereas Hillary Clinton represents the government. That's a big difference and in the world of diplomacy that kind of thing matters a lot.

[NoSheep]

6. THAT is a very good point. It's still a man's fucked up world.

[rockymountaindem]

11. Not entirely. Don't forget Madeline Albright

When the US, specifically the Clinton admin., wanted to communicate directly with North Korea on matters of great importance, Madeline Albright got a warm reception. Remember how she went over there with a Michael Jordan autographed basketball and a bunch of movies that Kim wanted to see? Everybody who talks about it said that was a productive meeting (I think it was in 1997 or 1998). So, I don't think that has anything to do with a wish to avoid sending a woman to negotiate with Kim. We've done it before to some success.

I've been reading a lot about this stuff lately for school. For example, did you know that the Soviet Union was trying to make an alliance with the UK and France just prior to the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? After months of negotiations, the British were going to send what essentially amounted to the diplomatic B-team (Chamberlain having asked Lord Halifax, the FM not to go to Moscow and having specifically forbidden Anthony Eden, Halifax' second, from going) to negotiate with the Soviets. Furthermore, they also sent them by steam liner instead of by plane. When the Soviets told the Germans about this development, Hitler's government, anxious to have an agreement with the USSR and break up an encircling alliance, basically replied "We can have our Foreign Minister at the Kremlin within 24 hours". Stalin and Molotov concluded that the British were just jerking them around but that Hitler was really serious about putting something on paper, so they signed with the Nazis. That is of course a highly simplified account, but it's a good example of how the choice people you send makes a statement in and of itself. That is what I think this was about. We wanted to send someone important that would make Kim feel respected without sending an official delegate on what is not a mission of prime importance to our security.

[NoSheep]

14. I appreciate your point. Mine is that women didn't make this world what it is.

I take a lot of pride in that when I consider that we still are pushed aside in many arenas where we deserve credit. I am fine with Bill going because that was the way to do this thing without having to deal with a bunch of idiots condemning Hillary and Obama. I was just trying to tell the poster to take heart....we didn't make this shit pile what it is and I'm cool with not getting credit for it. It's just a little irony the marginalized can hold on to.

[pnorman]

16. I recall reading that in a book about the Cold War by Fleming.

Was that where you saw that? I almost forgot that item, and will try to double-check that on the web (although it's almost certainly correct)

pnorman

[rockymountaindem]

22. I've seen that in multiple sources

Notably "St. Petersburg and Moscow" by Barbara Jelavich and multiple articles by historians such as Jonathan Haslam.

[pnorman]

23. Thanks.

The book I had in mind was "The Cold War and it's Origins" (2 vol.), by D. F. Fleming. I just discovered that it's on-line at Questia.com! I''m in luck, since I believe that it's out of print, but I'm a subscriber to Questia!

Now to start digging through it. The Search function should help greatly in that.

pnorman
On edit: Amazon has the 2 volumes at $100 (used), so it's probably out of print. My 30+ year ago recollection was that it was a bit more "USSR-friendly" than it probably should have been. But Fleming still came across as both intellectually honest as well as very knowledgable.

[northernlights]

18. this is no reflection on Hillary...there's a difference

between negotiating policy, treaties and agreements and negotiating the release of 2 American prisoners who were apparently trespassing.

Hillary paved the way. Bill just sealed the deal. We often send former officials in unofficial capacities to deal with private issues, to avoid being seen as "weak."

[EFerrari]

19. Precisely. Did we want the Sec of State going to grovel to NK?

No.

[TexasObserver]

3. Nope. She's the one who set it up.

[BlooInBloo]

4. Nah. It looks like the deal was done before Bill even got on the plane....

From what I've read, Hilary was involved since the day she walked back her "unruly" remarks, and suggested "amnesty" (about a month ago).

I'm not certain how set in stone it all is, at this point, however.


EDIT: But it doesn't really matter - the important thing is that everybody came together in their respective roles, and got the journalists home.

[LeFleur1]

7. Come On

You know very well a woman couldn't have done that, don't you? ;-)

[BlooInBloo]

9. WaPo has its article out... Doesn't look to be too many more details...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/04/AR2009080400684.html

"North Korea had long made it clear that it expected a high-profile visit on behalf of the journalists, but Gore may not have been acceptable because he was viewed as their boss and thus not an appropriate symbol of the United States. Other potential envoys considered by the administration included Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson (D) and a former ambassador to South Korea, Donald Gregg.

The discreet discussions to secure the women's release continued even as Hillary Clinton slammed North Korea last month, saying it had "no friends" and was acting like an unruly child. But in critical ways, she also moderated her tone with regard to the case, moving from declaring in June that the charges were "absolutely without merit or foundation" to saying last month that the journalists "are deeply regretful, and we are very sorry it's happened." "


I hope the full account of this comes out - sounds like it'd be a fascinating story.

[obliviously]

8. Who knows maybe north Korea is sexist!

[DURHAM D]

10. why don't you read a little more

and type a little less?

Your big fat ignorance is showing.

Hillary ran the whole show. She offered Bill Richardson and Al Gore. They wanted Bill. Al called Bill and asked him to go.

[Hippo_Tron]

12. *FACEPALM*

You clearly don't understand how diplomacy works. You do not send a high ranking administration official to a country that is blackmailing you. They would've been more than happy to receive our Secretary of State. There is no way we were going to dignify them in that manner.

[madrchsod]

13. bill richardson went to north korea

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Dddddddddd Dumb.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. I can't help but wonder how a PARDON is seen as a win for the US.

KJI is the only winner here. A "pardon" is the forgiving of a crime and the punishment associated with it. It is NOT a statement of innocence or wrongful incarceration. It guarantees that a crime has been committed and is generally seen as "mercy" in the context of punishment.

In July, the SoS asked KJI for "amnesty" in their case, thereby agreeing with the North Korean assertion that the two women journalists had committed a crime.

So, a crime was committed. Look up the terms "pardon" and "amnesty". The problem is, we haven't been told what the crime was. Once again, this administration has apologized for our country's wrongdoing. This time though, we're not told what the wrondoing was, only that it occurred in March, and that it's been forgiven by the North Korean leadership.

What could the crime have been? How will the North Koreans use it against us in the court of world opinion?

So Ex-President Clinton went to North Korea, admitted that a crime had been committed, and asked Kim Jong Il to pardon the criminals, after being softened up by the Secretary of State's admission (by asking for "amnesty") in July that the United States had committed a crime of some kind against North Korea.

There's one winner here, and it's Kim Jong Il.

[MagickMuffin]

20. They were charged with a crime

They were sentenced in June to 12 years of hard labor for illegal entry and engaging in "hostile acts."

[NoPasaran]

21. You're right

To maintain our national pride, we should have bombed their cities to rubble, scattered their armies like chaff before the wind, and tried and executed the despot who rules over that unhappy land. But that would have distracted from the healthcare debate, not to mention the ongoing rec/unrec kerfuffle here on DU.

[NoSheep]

25. Perfect response .

[NoSheep]

24. Why must it always be about winning or losing? The reporters are safe.

The crime was illegal entry into a country with closed borders. N Korea let them go when we respected their borders by asking them to pardon the obvious mistakes of these women. Period. It's amazing really. What's wrong with that? I don't give a damn about who has all the marbles. If anyone is counting, I thought they were shared equally and fairly.