Inside Michael Vick's Bad Newz Kennels (pic heavy)

[arcadian]

A DU exclusive.

[CountAllVotes]

1. bastard Vick should live in one of his "kennels"

evil fucker IMO.

:dem:

[imdjh]

2. Maybe I can't explain or defend why I eat chicken but want dog abusers to go to jail

But there isn't any law which requires me to be completely fair. I have no problem with Michael Vick going to jail for dog fighting. And while I do eat chicken, I would have no problem with someone going to jail for cock fighting, or bull fighting and I don't care if it's "part of a rich culture". Human sacrifice is part of Mayan culture but you don't hear modern Mayans calling for its return.

"But you don't mind torturing chickens by jamming them into chicken houses where they only have a square foot per bird and stand in their own shit." Well, maybe I do mind. But there is still a difference between poor living conditions and taking joy in a fight to the death. I mind those horrid pictures of orphans living in squalor in countries that can't or won't do better for them, but there is a difference between that and betting on them in a fight to the death.

[Solomon]

3. And he was caught and punished. What's your point?

[Ignis]

35. Had you seen these pictures previously?

If not, that's the point right there.

[joeybee12]

4. How many convicted felons get a free pass to go back to the job they held

before prison?

[WeDidIt]

7. Hardly a free pass

A team still has to make the decision to sign him.

[joeybee12]

9. A free pass compared to the nobodies out there who have to fill out applications

and get admit to the crime and have background checks and most likely get turned down.

[WeDidIt]

12. How many of them can put "NFL Class Quarterback, 3 Time Pro-Bowler" on their resume?

Seriously.

It's a sticky situation for any team, though. If they need a really good quarterback badly enough, they may be willing to accept the PR issues of hiring Vick.

[joeybee12]

21. I doubt most teams will take that risk...

...lots of animal lovers out there...if the patriots took him, I'd have to find a new team.

[WeDidIt]

23. 2008 Detroit Lions O wins, 16 losses

What have they got to lose?

[joeybee12]

26. Maybe their three fans who show up for those abysmal games? n/t

[WeDidIt]

30. No matter Vicks' past, if he comes on board and they start winning

the stands will be filled.

[kwolf68]

31. They already have a QB

The Lions have the kid out of Georgia. Vick is NOT a good QB...average passing comp percentage, average QB rating...can't read defenses, isn't bright...and that was 2 years ago. Being in the prison rodeo hasn't gotten him ready to see NFL defenses.

Is he a tremendous athlete that can help a team? Possibly...at best, Vick is a niche player now, a 'slash' talent. NO ONE will give that guy the #1 job in the entire NFL.

Sad thing is Vick is the product of shoddy parenting. His brother is also a bad apple. I hope he can be rehabilitated, but I for one doubt it.

[tblue37]

17. I hope that if a team does sign him, then fans boycott every game they play. nt

[WeDidIt]

20. You don't know football fans very well, do you?

I will admit, though, the only teams that will ever consider signing Vick are those with horrible records.

Maybe Detroit...

[tblue37]

24. No--I don't do spectator sports at all, so the mindset of the fans is

totally alien to me.

[paulsby]

52. exactly. and imo the NFL should rehire them

the NFL is a group defined by people who can play football

not "people of good moral character" who can play football.

vick is a scumbag, but he paid his debt to society. if he's got the skillz to play LET HIM PLAY

i'd have the same belief, if he committed murder. he did his time.

i'm not unrealistic about football players or pro athletes in general, fwiw. i could not care less if they use performance enhancing drugs. in fact, the drugs make the sports better.

as for vick's crimes. he did some evil things. and he PAID his debt to society. let him play

[arcadian]

83. You are wrong. He has paid his debt to the state.

It appears that society isn't so willing to let him off the hook.

[paulsby]

100. that's a good point

but it's a common phrase "paid one's debt to society"

i have no problem with people shunning a convicted murderer, heck... i have no problems with them shunning an obviously guilty murderer who was found not guilty, or whose case was thrown out by some technicality. we can shun whomever we want. within certain legal boundaries, of course.

but again, LOOK at some of the assmunches, and felonious assmunches for that matter in the NFL.

for pete's sake.

if i pulled over a guy from the dallas cowboys back in the day, i'd ask for backup and an NCIC warrants check.

to paraphrase sir charles barkley, vick is not a fricken role model.

he's a guy who can do magick things with a football.

ultimately, NFl is a business, and assuming there are no labor law issues with not hiring a person based on their convicted felon status, in that industry, then it is up to the team owners to decide about vick, just like they decide on any other player.

i'm just saying that PERSONALLY, for me pro football is about the best football players. period. i don't care about their race, their background, their religion, their political beliefs, etc.

i care about watching good athletes.

i can't imagine any SPONSORS jumping to sign up vick, but sponsorship is way different than playing.

certainly, if the teams think that michael vick would be a financial liability then they won't hire him. iow, if fans would boycott.

[WeDidIt]

5. He served his time

PErsonally, I think the Raiders should pick him up.

[MNDemNY]

14. And drop him from a helicopter?

[WeDidIt]

15. So you are for permanent punishment as opposed to rehabilitation?

Because that's what you are suggesting, punish somebody forever over one criminal act.

Hardly a progressive position, there.

[MNDemNY]

18. No, but in this society,

where (for better or worse) our sports stars are revered figures to the youth, I can only hope that no team picks him up. If any team does, they deserve what ever the consequences may be. Vick will not be warmly received by most fans, and that is tough poo for Mike.

[WeDidIt]

22. It would be an incredibly smart move for Detroit

After their 0-16 record last year, they cna use their first round draft choice to either trade for an excellent receiver, or draft one, and then sign Vick.

How bad could that move hurt them after last season's finish?

[MNDemNY]

25. Ask the fans. I think many who but tickets would beg to differ.

I suggest Mr. Vick use his degree. He did get one. right?

[paulsby]

101. i'm a fan, and i would pay to see him play

the issue for me is this.

he DID HIS TIME.

he's a scumbag, but he's a scumbag who paid his debt and who can (presumably) still play kick-ass football.

if he was an animal abuser who got off on some technicality (iow he was obviously guilty but never was punished), i'd say - i'd never pay to see him play.

[MNDemNY]

102. That is 1. You won't fill up a stadium , now will you.

[paulsby]

103. no.

i'd be curious to see what the polling data would be vis a vis vick.

[5thGenDemocrat]

106. Obviously you don't follow football

The Lions drafted and signed Matt Stafford (QB, Georgia) with their first round (number one overall) pick. He will compete with Dante Culpepper for the starting job.
As a lifelong, eternally suffering Lions fan, I'd rather go 0-16 again than sign a dog killer to our roster, thank you very much.
John
Plus, we have Calvin Johnson (widely considered to be an excellent receiver) already on the roster. Things are looking up -- I fully expect to win at least three games this year.

[flvegan]

6. K&R!

It's tough to stay anonymous, isn't it.

[CountAllVotes]

8. We Will Not Forget eh flvegan?

I know I won't! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[flvegan]

11. Never forget, never forgive.

The collection of pictures of this property that the OP has is quite excellent. It's been sent to a couple top tier organizations to see if they can use them in any way.

[arcadian]

56. I hope they are of some use.

Per haps at lectures on animal cruelty or something. Also, per hap somebody could contact the current owners and ask if they would donate some of that stuff, those gigantic dog bowls have got to cost a pretty penny. One should also see if they are trying to sell or have sold the house, see if they highlighted the dog kennels in the property value, becuase they are clearly not dismantled.

[Ignis]

67. Hey, I'm quite willing to forgive...

When someone shows real contrition, a desire to change, and effort to make amends.

I'm not seeing much of those elements with Vick, but I'm happy to be shown evidence to the contrary.

[arcadian]

55. I decided...

"Fuck it" I guess I'm semi anonymous on DU anyway. :hi:

[Corgigal]

10. Are these current photos?

You would think someone would tear all those structures down. Is this some type of selling point? Start high profit business in the backyard, kennels and fighting pit good to go? Gross.

[MNDemNY]

13. Turn-key puppy mill!

[flvegan]

16. Not to speak as or for the OP

but yes, very current. The house is actually listed for sale for $590k right now. They did tear down the two fences that blocked the black structures and kennels from view from the street (the fences, structures and kennels that Vick *swears* he knew nothing about :eyes:).

Those 20 kennels are professionally built. The "doggie Gitmo" building needs to be destroyed, but an animal rescue could make good use of the place.

[KittyWampus]

28. that would be a lovely way to try and bring some peace to the place- donate it for use

as an animal shelter.

You know, if Vick really wanted to make amends, that'd be a good place to start.

it'd indicate to me, at least, he was sincere.

[backwoodsbob]

77. he cant do that

he's in bankruptcy and the houses have to be sold as part of the proceedings

[arcadian]

50. That is correct, flvegan.

[Maru Kitteh]

19. Vick should hae done his time in that Gitmo he made for animals.

Fuck him. I hope he is ostracized and despised to his dying day.

[AngryOldDem]

81. Given that he has been conditionally reinstated by the NFL....

...ain't gonna happen. All is forgiven -- especially if he puts asses in the stands every Sunday afternoon.

Just one more example of preferential treatment that comes as a celebrity birthright, apparently.

[timo]

27. dog gitmo

looks like the same people who built gitmo built his dog kennels

[Maru Kitteh]

29. Welcome to DU. It's apparently consensus then. Vick's gitmo is full of suck.

and pretty much, so is Vick.

[arcadian]

48. More like a canine Auschwitz

These kennels were built by professionals and at great expense.

[timo]

97. then vick got screwed

its a simple slab with cinder block walls and stick frame and tin roof, some chain link fence strung along front and back, it's about as simple as construction can get, not like its fully enclosed, climate controlled, floor drains, full surgery theatre, animal care facillity. hardly as professional as some kennels I have seen.

[NeedleCast]

32. This is one of those DU Ironies that never stops amzing me

We'll stand in a circle and bitch and moan about the criminal justice system in the country but after a man completes his sentence it appears that more than a few people still don't think he's worthy of re-entering society.

[Ignis]

34. "re-entering society" =!= "playing pro football and enjoying celebrity"

But hey, nice strawman.

[NeedleCast]

37. Why not?

Its not a strawman at all. Vick is now a free citizen (minus the freedoms he loses for being a felon) and can go back to doing whatever he can do. If that means he'll be able to play pro-football again, I have no issues with that. Should we limit the options of certain convicts based on their crimes? If Vick had been, say, a lawyer, should he be able to go back into the law field?

[Ignis]

41. Perhaps you could research the "strawman" fallacy?

...but after a man completes his sentence it appears that more than a few people still don't think he's worthy of re-entering society.

I haven't seen anyone on DU--except perhaps in the heat of the moment right after his arrest--say that Vick should be locked up forever and denied release/parole.

If you have posts to the contrary, let's see them. Otherwise, I direct you again to the definition of "strawman."

Should we limit the options of certain convicts based on their crimes? If Vick had been, say, a lawyer, should he be able to go back into the law field?

Again, I haven't seen anyone call for a law restricting Vick from re-joining the Overpaid American Celebrity Circus. All criminals should of course be rehabilitated, serve their sentences, and be re-integrated into society in a structured, controlled fashion.

But I'll take your bait anyway: Should we limit the job options of convicted child rapists (for example)? Should we limit them from teaching, coaching, and/or running a day-care center?

Of course we should. And we do.

But that's not the argument here. Hence...(drumroll)...Le Homme du Straw! :)

[NeedleCast]

54. So, despite your sugar coating, you feel like ex-felons should be

restricted. I get your knee-jerk reaction and all, it's pretty visible all through this thread from others as well. The attitude says "Sure, Vick served his time but he shouldn't have a right to go back to doing what he was doing which was playing football and making stacks of money." That's a pretty typical attitude towards felons and why they so often have a hard time re-integrating with society.

Should we limit child rapists from being involved with children? Probably. So what are you propsing we limit Vick from doing? Maybe we should say he cant be a legal pet owner again. I'm okay with that. But denying him a right to make a living at something that has nothing to do with his crime?

Again, there's no strawman here. You seem to be suggesting that Vick shouldn't be allowed to return to football and if you read through the thread there are several people who seem to be suggesting that not only should he not be playing football, but that he should be stuffed into a kennel never to see light of day again.

[Ignis]

60. You keep equating "football" with "society." Why?

I'll state it ridiculously clearly, since I obviously didn't do so last time: I do not support the passage of a law that would restrict Vick's ability to re-enter society. Nor do I support the passage of a law that would restrict Vick's ability to play football--professionally or otherwise.

What other posters have said in this thread is not the same as what I have said in this thread. Please be specific.

[NeedleCast]

63. Football isn't part of society?

No offense, but where have you been living? You stated - in the title of your first response to me - that ""re-entering society" =!= "playing pro football and enjoying celebrity""

This lead to my belief that you thought Vick shouldn't be allowed to return to football. Perhaps an error on my part, but I'm not sure what else you'd be suggesting with that title. Infering from that, its a fairly logical assumption that you think it's fine that Vick has served his time, but that you don't think he should be allowed to return to his former occupation.

[Ignis]

70. Ah, and I think there's the logical disconnect.

I do think any ex-felon should be allowed to re-enter society. I support funding, training, etc. that helps this goal of re-integration. I would not support (or work for passage of) a law that restricts the ability of ex-cons to re-enter society...despite the rambling accusations upthread that I'm some sort of Orwellian proto-torturer and perpetual imprisoner.

:banghead:

But societal re-integration does not equate to wiping the slate clean and allowing ex-cons to resume their lives exactly where they left off. To (ab)use the child rapist analogy I offered earlier, I don't support the ability of that particular breed of ex-con to pick up teaching/coaching/daycare again.

Should Vick be "allowed" to play football again? Of course. I never said otherwise. Nothing's stopping him from playing football.

But I wouldn't vote for Nixon for president even if he had served time for Watergate. Prison time is not a Magical Mulligan or "do-over" that gives you a free pass for your past activities. Celebrity and amazing wealth are not essential elements of successfully re-integrating an ex-con with society.

I would boycott and protest against a sports franchise or corporate sponsor who picked up Vick.

(Thanks for taking the time to discuss this, by the way.)

[bullwinkle428]

57. I wouldn't mind limiting his options with regard to owning animals -

let him earn $50 million playing ball in the NFL or new UFL or wherever, but I'd not let within a mile of any dogs if I had the choice.

[Hutzpa]

39. I sensed SPITE coming from you n/t

[Ignis]

43. Uh, OK. Did you use your magic Spite Detector?

I really don't know how to respond to your post. "Sense harder," perhaps?

:shrug:

I'm not a particularly spiteful person, but nor am I a dog torturer, either.

[Hutzpa]

53. Yup ! it told me you are full of it (spite detector) that is......

that is not a progressive standard, how many times have you messed up??? but I guess it's
not about you so you can express your opinion as you see fit....fair enough.

The man has serve his time in jail but yet he should not be allowed to return to society
because some people are of the Darwinian principle of punish and keep punishing.

Sad if you asked me....

[Ignis]

62. You are difficult to understand. Non-native speaker?

Please quote specific "Orwellian" :eyes: statements that I've made calling for Vick to be kept in prison indefinitely and/or punished, tortured, etc. indefinitely.

Also, you should probably research the "argument ad hominem" fallacy, because that is what you are full of, Hutzpa.

:hi:

[Hutzpa]

71. I speak Palinese

(Orwellian) thats what happens when you're multi-tasking, my mistake, benefit of the doubt
on your assumption of non native speaker.

On the ad hominem narrative....my advice would be to revisit your post.

[Ignis]

75. Still not much happening in the Make Sense department.

You accused me of being spiteful. Support your argument or GTFO, as the kids say.

I don't worship at the altar of Saint Vick the Doggie Torturer. I don't buy into the cult of personality most Americans have established around professional athletes of (certain) sports. I don't think that we should support Vick picking right back up and re-inserting into his multi-million-dollar celebrity lifestyle simply because he had the misfortune to be caught and the even worse fortune to serve time. I don't think torturing dogs is a progressive value.

If that somehow makes me spiteful, you're going to have to connect the dots for those of us in the cheap seats. Because as it stands, your post is merely an attack upon my person or qualities rather than the strength of my argument--i.e., a classic argument ad hominem. So if you have some means by which you can prove that I'm a spiteful person, it's time to whip it out.

Otherwise, I'll be back in a bit for your apology. Make sure it's a juicy one! :hi:

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

86. More insults? I'm not surprised.

I'll spell it out for you reeeeeeeeal niiiiiiiiice aaaaaaaaand sloooooooow:

Saying
that
someone's
argument
contains
the
strawman
fallacy
is
not
the
same
as
personally
insulting
them.

So your "pot/kettle" argument that I'm guilty of using the argument ad hominem fallacy against NeedleCast holds no water.

QED.

...And I didn't even have to use my Magical Spite Detector to tell me what you were thinking or what evil lurks in your heart!


Finally, unless you're well over 60, you don't get to call me a "kid," Mr. Internet Tough Guy. I suggest you read the DU rules and knock off your macho bullshit.

---

Edit: Removed a snarky comment regarding your use of the word "irregardless," because it's not fair to blame any individual poster for the shoddy state of the American educational system.

[Ignis]

93. BTW, if you can call me "kid," I can call you "boy," right?

I mean, if that's the level of discourse that you're seeking, and if the mods have no problem with your constant stream of insults, it's only fair, right?

:shrug:

[timo]

36. i dont give a rats azz

vick can come or go, he served his time, I dont pay much attention to sports so it wont matter to me, in the long run vic will do worse to himself than anything I can come up with, he also has shit taste in design,build,and layout!!!

[Johonny]

42. not only that

many DUers that are against Gitmo and capital punishment apparently want Vick tortured! Sort of amazing.

[Ignis]

44. That's horrible. Links, please? (nt)

[Johonny]

78. link? just read this thread. The gitmo comments are right here!

[Ignis]

79. Oh, I see. But that's not a direct call for torture, surely.

We can extrapolate that those who wish to have seen Vick serve his sentence in Gitmo rather than a Kansas prison wish to see him suffer, but that's not exactly the same as DUers calling for torture, is it?

Emotions run high for most people when it comes to (some) animals (that they don't personally choose to eat), certainly. But I don't think any DUers are actually calling for Vick to be physically tortured in the same way he tortured his fighting dogs, do you? I think it's simply a case of an emotional reaction to the abuse of an animal that many keep as pets and with whom many have forged close emotional bonds.

But I've been wrong before. Just last year, for example. ;)

[Johonny]

91. Just dig up an old Vick thread

from when this story first broke. There's uglier stuff than what's in this thread. The other thread today calling for Vick to be placed on the field without an Oline to be pummeled by his fellow NFLers. That seems like a call for torture to me.

Overall Vick threads remind me some people love their dogs more than they appear to love other people. Which is odd but probably not surprising I guess. The whole subject is confusing to me because animal treatment is so culturally different from one area of the world to another it's really hard to know how to react. World? Ok this country. Clearly what Vick was doing is disturbing to me, and yet in many parts of the country Dog fighting is culturally acceptable. If anything the Vick story highlighted to middle America something that previously was not known to them. Also in almost all parts of middle America vastly more dogs are produced than will find homes. This country kills so many pets in animal shelters not for food, or even sport but just for lack of home. It seems odd in a country that allows puppy mills and has pet owners that don't neuter their pets, to get so worked up about the Vick subject. We live in an odd society which LOVES animals but mostly ignores the silent mass murdering by product of our lazy treatment of this love.

[Ignis]

92. Fair enough. I hadn't seen the other thread until now.

I just didn't see a lot of out-and-out calls for torture here, so I was surprised.

Your heart is definitely in the right place, though, and I couldn't agree with you more about the shame of puppy mills, unwanted strays, etc. in America. It's a weird sort of NIMBY: We all love our own pets, but couldn't care less about the strays in the streets, in the pounds, in the fighting pits, and in the puppy mills.

:hug:

[arcadian]

45. The photographs are in and of themselves neutral

I thought people would be interested in seeing them. Funny how they have not appeared any where else in the MSM. I didn't post my opinion about the photos.

[NeedleCast]

61. I understand that and don't mean to imply I was talking about you

but rather the attitude in some of the Vick threads both over the last 48 hours and when he was originally busted.

[Ignis]

33. Aaaaah! Great pics, but now my blood's boiling.

I can't believe some people actually believe that Vick's been "rehabilitated." These pictures put proof to Vick's lies that he didn't know about the various structures. I didn't believe his protestations of ignorance before, but these pics really sink it in.

Thanks so much for posting these, Arcadian. :patriot:

[Hutzpa]

38. And your point is.....

:shrug:

[arcadian]

46. Yeah being informed about something is always a bad thing.

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Informed?

Is that what you're calling it?

[arcadian]

49. Show me where else you've seen pictures like this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. You mean a house, an abandoned kennel, and an unkept yard?

Are they supposed to look like something else?

[arcadian]

66. Why are your posts so deliberately obtuse?

If that's what you see then that is what you see. Clearly they struck a nerve with you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. I think you're projecting.

There's nothing special about any of those photos.

Could be any house, and any kennel.

[arcadian]

69. Are you saying that isn't Vick's house?

Or that anybody who would breed dogs like that has it in them to commit such acts? Or are you saying that Michael Vick's celebrity status doesn't necessarily warrant public scrutiny because he committed a crime?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. I'm saying I've been beating her off and on for about twenty years now.

Thanks for asking.

[Hutzpa]

58. Rolling your eyes is not going to change

your hidden agenda, you knew what you wanted to achieve and thats bringing back
the horrors by showing those photos.

Your hypocrisy is astounding.

[Ignis]

64. Oh yes, it's much better to forget history, so we can repeat it!

":eyes: " is quite an appropriate response, I'd say.

[arcadian]

65. Get out of my head!!!

Bwahaha! You believe what ever you want to believe. :rofl:

[Ignis]

72. You are a HYPOCRITE! Er, for some reason not specified...

:eyes:

I'm normally willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but someone's trying way too hard to attack anyone who doesn't slobber all over St. Vick.

[Hutzpa]

74. What specifics are you looking for??

you don't comprehend much do you(?)

[Ignis]

76. The word "because" is your friend in supporting a claim.

Free examples!

1. You are an asshole.
2. You are an asshole because you didn't set your alarm and forgot to pick me up after work like you promised you would.

1. You are a hypocrite.
2. You are a hypocrite because you preach against extra-marital sex while having an affair with your secretary.

1. You are a spiteful person.
2. You are a spiteful person because you kicked that homeless man in the leg when he jangled his alms cup at you.

I do indeed comprehend much. I even comprehend the function of parenthetical punctuation. I suggest you try for a similar (or better) level of comprehension before casting The Asparagus at other posters.

:hi:

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

87. Oh, so you do understand what "specifics" means.

Then why'd you ask for clarification? And why didn't you present any support for your ridiculous arguments?

":banghead: " indeed.

[Union Yes]

40. He tortured man's best friend. He's a vile disgrace of a human.

[teachableseconds]

51. Thank you for not showing mangled dogs!

I was very cautious about this. I don't mind him being given a second chance as long as he understands his heinous behavior.

They broke up a dog fight some time ago in a nearby city. There was a young pregnant woman among the onlookers cheering at the carnage!:scared: The idea that she was giving birth to the next generation with that consciousness is so awful.

[Critters2]

96. Yeah, I was kind of afraid that's what the pics might be.

But the lack of a "graphic" warning caused me to venture forth.

[dysfunctional press]

84. Thankfully, he's paid his debt to society as required under the law...

and can now get back to playing professional football.

:woohoo:

[arcadian]

88. Wrong. He's paid his debt to the state.

Society is a whole different story.

[Ignis]

89. That's a great distinction.

I know there are a lot of emotions running wild on this issue--some animal lovers, some football fanatics, some both--but do people really believe that (for example) society is compelled to completely forget the past behavior of an ex-felon?

Even if one supports this approach, it's certainly distant from the current reality of employment, housing, credit, etc. for any normal (i.e., non-multimillionaire celebrity) African-American ex-felon.

When your time is served, the State is satisfied, but Society does not pretend like nothing ever happened.

[dysfunctional press]

90. under the law, it's one in the same.

but you go ahead and play all the semantic games you want.

and you might as well- because vick is going to get to play the game he wants to.

after all- you're BOTH free people.

[arcadian]

94. Please provide citation.

Please show me an amendment, law, code or regulation which states that "the state and society are one in the same". The state is simply a function of society, the two are not interchangeable.

[dysfunctional press]

95. the term "paid his debt to society" has the same meaning in this context.

and you're fully aware of that.

[arcadian]

98. No, I'm not aware of that.

The state and society are two entirely different things. Society in this context means public opinion, the public opinion about Michael Vick clearly dictates that this issue is far from over.

[dysfunctional press]

99. when someone has completed their criminal sentence-

they are said to have 'paid their debt to society'.

a person would have to be fairly obtuse not to know that expression in that context.

[arcadian]

104. Right and I'm merely extrapolating on that.

When you are talking about the court of public opinion, it's anything goes. A lot of people don't like Vick even though as you say, he has served his sentence. How about OJ and public opinion about him? What about child molesters? The courts decide how to treat somebody in regards to public safety, individuals are also on the vanguard of public safety, it's why people get creeped out when they find out a sexual predator lives near them. Regardless of if that person served their sentence or not the public in those cases decides that person should really not be accepted back into society. Like it or not that's how it is. You can stop playing net nanny and telling people what is and what is not worthy of their concern now.

[dysfunctional press]

105. i'm talking about the court of law...you know- the REAL world.

where once a person has finished their term behind bars- their debt to society is paid.

i don't agree with what they do to child molesters- but that's already the law.

in michael vick's case- the law says that he's free to go and do as he wishes.

same for oj.

but honestly- in these heady times, i really don't think that reaches the level of something that need be any of your concern, anyway.

[lunatica]

85. I prefer the pictures of Dog Town where the dogs were successfully

rehabilitated and turned out to be very loving dogs which shows that dogs won't bite the hand that feeds them and loves them.