Question: What would Thomas Hobbes have said about the recent Prof H.L. Gates issue?

[Taverner]

My thought is he would have seen it as justified - but to me Thomas Hobbes is the closet thing a Freeper has done to ever design a philosophy for their irrationality.

[Jackpine Radical]

1. Ah, yes--I remember Tommy Hobbes. Unpleasant little shrimp. Never liked him.

In fact, I always thought of him as nasty, brutish and short.

[Taverner]

3. LOL

[Selatius]

2. Hobbes and Rousseau tended to occupy the opposite sides in their arguments.

Rousseau tended to believe in the inherent goodness of man being the primary driving force of things. Hobbes, on the other hand, believed that people were inherently selfish, brutish, and cruel. No doubt such a view would lead one to easily justify the use of force and brutality to keep the savages in line.

"The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naive enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody."

-- Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse On Inequality, 1754.

[Taverner]

4. State of Nature = Rational Thought/War

Again, Rousseau thought everything should be determined by small city-states

I do like his idea about separating the Sovereign from the Government though...

I am convinced our natural state is not one of rationality OR war - it's just animal nature. Basically society switched the dominant part of the brain from the "Lizard Brain" to the Frontal Lobe.

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. I want to believe Rousseau, but life continually exhibits Hobbes

It seems our political system in America has transcended most of the great thinkers previous attempts at description. While Rosseau and Hobbes quibbled over the nature of mankind, Marx hit the nail on the head in regard to the current domination of our politics by the multi-national corporation.

In short, Marx describes the human condition perfectly when coupled with a Machievellian view of governance.

[Taverner]

8. Marx was way off in some arenas, however

Labor Value Theory comes to mind...

I know we get the WORST results when we apply any theory without criticism, or critical thought. This was the REAL error of the Soviet Experiment.

[Vinnie From Indy]

9. I'll agree with that!

[Demoiselle]

5. I'm not sure you can't make the opposite argument about Hobbes...

I've always thought that his rather bleak assessment of human nature offers a pretty good rationale for the "anti-bully" rules in our society. Rules like anti trust to protect us against the powerful money interests, rules like thorough oversite of cops and other "authority figures" so they don't abuse their power. Even rules like social security and medicare and the like. Survival of the fittest is something that Hobbes recognizes as reality...but I'm not sure he rationalizes it as a good thing.
Does that make any sense? I actually majored in poly sci a million years ago and wrote a paper about Hobbes and Restoration Comedy (The Country Wife) but I can't for the life of me remember anything else about it.

[Taverner]

6. Even on that, however - I think his thinking is flawed

I go more for Mill's Harm Principle. It always seemed to me as a good yardstick for regulating what should and shouldn't be illegal.