What IF the final healthcare reform package really stinks?

[Mythsaje]

What then? What if they force some unwieldy, craptacular, feed-the-monster construct on us? Are we going to have people in the street, or some group like Code Pink going after those most responsible for what was done?

I really hope they pull something decent out of this travesty, but I'm terrified they won't. I'd love, love, love to be surprised. What's bad is that it wouldn't be difficult to pleasantly surprise me.

Anyone else feel the same way?

[Syrinx]

1. I'm thinking it will probably be a giant giveaway to the insurance companies

This thing about forcing everyone to buy insurance or be fined is very creepy.

Single payer is the only answer.

[Mythsaje]

2. Yeah, it bugs the hell out of me too...

Single Payer all the way. This patchwork crap is going to turn out to be a big stinking mess.

[Syrinx]

3. I really like the president a lot

It's going to crush me if he turns out to be just another corporate stooge.

[Mythsaje]

4. I'm not sure we can get any other kind...

It would be nice if he wasn't, though. I like him too.

[Selatius]

17. I really don't think it's possible to elect a progressive president any longer.

The amount of money that special interests throw into the field makes the possibility very remote. The days where people like FDR could be elected came and went. In the end, he was only really elected because the Great Depression left people with no other choice than to vote for someone different like FDR.

People have forgotten how good they had it with leaders like FDR at the helm. They remembered what he did. The generation that lived and fought under FDR is rapidly disappearing from this world. Soon, there will be nobody left who remembers firsthand what FDR did and stood for as far as the New Deal, and that will be a great loss to us all, except for the corporations that want us all to forget.

Had FDR lived longer, we might actually have gotten universal health care or even outright single-payer by the end of the 1940s or early 1950s.

[Amos Moses]

8. turns out to be?

You haven't seen enough to determine that already?

[Donnachaidh]

18. this patchwork crap is going to devastate families who were hoping for single payer

No one has mentioned *anything* about who sets the premiums, IF we get stuck with this corporate welfare for the insurance companies that seems to be worked on the most. THAT scares the bejesus out of me.

I have a kid that CANNOT get health insurance. He's an insurance untouchable. The companies REFUSED to even quote a potential policy -- one even laughed in my face when I requested it.

WHAT do you think is going to happen to us, if this is a trust fund for insurance companies? Add to that my pre-existing conditions, and the age of myself and my husband. Oh yeah, DH has been unemployed for over a year - so our savings are gone, forget unemployment (he had a part time job that still works) and we find ourselves literally scraping up change at the end of the month for gas.

But we could face stiff FINES because if we don't buy into this feeding trough for the insurance/medical industrial complex?

This STINKS. This is NOT what is going to help my family, or the thousands of other insurance untouchables who will be screwed by this reported mess.

[stuball111]

5. Not only that.. the "public option"

Is gonna be run by the insurance companies by the looks of the bill. It might be cheaper, but big insurance will get the profits...

[dana_b]

42. so "public" now means "run by corporations"?

this stinks more and more. We don't have any choice though. We've said our piece - wrote, called, begged and most don't seem to give a hoot what we think. So our options are to
1) keep what we have - if we have it - from an insurance company
2) buy it from an insurance company
2) get the "public" option - from an insurance company

Well it looks like the insurance companies may be hiring!!

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. If single payer is the only answer...

And it must come in one step or not at all, then a half-million americans will have died and healthcare will cost 20% of gdp the next time democrats are in position to suggest any change.

single payer is a dead issue for now. A strong public option could very well evolve into single payer, but only if democrats remain in control for the forseeable future.

[johnaries]

6. Well, Obama has already declared that he will veto the bill

and send it back to Congress if certain conditions are not met, although those conditions are still rather broad. Personally, I wish he would use the bully pulpit more.

If the final bill is crappy, I am actually of 2 minds:

1 - if we don't pass SOMETHING, we may not get the chance again for another 10 or 15 years. Hopefully, if it is crappy we can improve on it later and at least have something workable.

2 - if it is crappy, there's also a chance Repubs may point to it and say "told you so, it won't work" and work to repeal it. In which case it may be another 10 or 15 years before we get another chance.

I don't expect that any bill that gets passed will be perfect. But I sincerely hope it's one that's at least workable.

[Fumesucker]

20. Well, yeah.. and he was gonna filibuster FISA and telco immunity too..

How did that work out for ya?

[johnaries]

50. He also explained his reasoning, although I doubt you paid attention.

But it made good sense.

[Fumesucker]

52. It may have made good sense to you..

Opinions differ.

And I have indeed been paying attention to a great many things, more than probably 99% of the population.

[Amos Moses]

21. We voted for Hope and CHANGE.

Not Hope and SOMETHING.

[johnaries]

51. And we're getting change, if you're paying attention.

No, he's not doing everything I would like, but he's definitely brought change.

[Amos Moses]

53. How much do they pay you?

[johnaries]

54. Actually, I think it some of the "divisionists" here who are getting

paid to post. I believe in constructive criticism, but many of the misleading anti-Obama posts I have seen here go waaaay beyond the pale.

You bring up an interesting point. We know that there are some "operatives" who have been paid to infiltrate progressive forums like DU to create disruption and division. Although I'm sure our alert Mods have tombstoned some of them, being professionals I'm sure some have survived and perhaps even thrived posing as Progressives. Now, if I were an "agent", would I defend and argue in support of our Dem Pres and Dem Congress? No, I would play upon the disilusionment of some and argue that "Obama is the same as Bush".

I am not accusing all who criticize Obama as RW operatives. Indeed, IF there are operatives here they would play upon the fears and emotions of honest Progressives who are honestly disillusioned or disappointed in the Obama Admin. These would include (but not be restricted to):

1. I expected more, quicker. (I thought I was getting a pony, where's my pony?)
2. I supported a different candidate, and Obama isn't doing as well as my candidate would have.
3. I'm a "True Progressive", and the Dem Party simply isn't Progressive enough. All Dems are "sell-outs".

Bottom line, I simply want to have an honest discussion. Obama HAS brought CHANGE, in many ways. In many other ways, Obama HAS NO lived up to expectations of many of us (including myself, I will admit). HOWEVER, in many of the cases where he did not "live up to expectations" he at least tried to explain to us the circumstances and WHY he made the decision he did. Kinda of like "Well, I really thought we could afford a pony. But then I found out that zoning ordinances wouldn't let us keep the pony here. And when I found out just how expensive it was to stable a pony plus all the Vet bills, we just can't afford it and pay for food, too. So, I'm sorry, as much as I wanted to give you a pony all I can offer is a puppy or kitten, instead."

So, if you want to criticize Obama, you must first recognize the good he has done and the Change he has brought. Then, we can discuss what he hasn't done.

But to completely deny the Change he has brought and the Good he has done is dishonest, at the very least.

[Amos Moses]

55. Oh, I see.

You're paid by the word.

Anyway, I don't feel the same need to make excuses for politicians. Anything that he has done for the working class is what he was *supposed* to be doing anyway. You make it sound like it's asking a lot for him to do the right thing when it's what he was elected to do in the first place.

But hey, at least you've got a job. Do you get bonus pay for posting during the weekend?

[JVS]

57. The problem is that it is difficult to determine whether he would veto or whether he would...

declare the conditions to be met and claim to have succeeded in his healthcare goals.

[pnwmom]

7. The situation ALREADY stinks for all the uninsured/under-insured/or those

hanging on to insurance by the thread of a single job.

It's hard to imagine reforms making it much worse.

[excess_3]

11. it can get lots worse ... the uninsured will be sent to prison

[clear eye]

16. Unless the final bill turns all but the wealthiest into underinsured

Since what all of us on this board want is a healthcare financing system that will reduce or end the exclusion of Americans from reasonable, effective treatments for their health issues, it is crucial to find out if a proposal is heading in the right direction. Anything else will only increase heartache. DUers, would you please consider the alternative?

What if the proposed bill is almost guaranteed to turn all but the wealthiest into underinsured by putting such terrible "cost/benefit" restrictions on coverage for the affordable lower two tiers that millions of people formerly eligible for a good Medicare plan now are given only cheaper, ineffective treatments or palliative care if they have a serious ailments or are elderly. And if the new plan turns almost everyone off to any government-administered program--especially single-payer.

What difference would it make to someone whose health made them uninsurable, if they were allowed into a plan that only gave them primary care but didn't cover effective treatment for the serious problem they had?

What if the premiums you or your employer can afford with the subsidy can't BY LAW buy a policy that covers that type of care that would restore your health, since all the policies in your price range have to follow the same restrictions? There will no longer be any shopping around for a policy that just happens to have what you or your child needs.

It is creepy that there is to be cost/benefit analyses of allowable coverage by some undisclosed bureaucrat probably hired right out of the insurance industry if the usual pattern of appointees by this Administration continues. It is creepy that we won't know what these decisions will be until AFTER the bill is passed or even know what basis will be used. For example, what is 5 years of extra life worth in those calculations, when you're 55? when you're 75? If you earn nothing when you're 75, is it worth nothing? What if it is determined that your child's health issues spring from a genetic disorder and she/he will need expensive care for life if healed this time. Will your tier's plan think it's worth it?

There is much in the current bill that leads inexorably in that direction. Please help fight to remove those provisions, or, failing that, for European-style single-payer healthcare financing that offers one tier of coverage, made better by enormous administrative and end-to-profit savings, for all.

[lexanman]

9. What if?

it will. count on it. Mandatory participation in a private for profit plan with threat of punitive fine. People with pre-existing conditions will be able to participate, but come time to pay for a bill, the insurance companies will still deny as unnessary. And our own team is already watering down and making sure the Capitalist model comes out on top. Any public plan will be so bogged down in the upcoming legislation, it wont make a difference.

[Meeker Morgan]

13. Mandatory participation in a private for profit plan with threat of punitive fine.

Like car insurance. But with everyone in the assigned risk pool.

When a right winger calls President Obama a "socialist", the appropriate response is hollow mirthless laughter.

[lexanman]

19. unfortunately you are correct

Obama is no socialist. Im waiting for the day they bring back debtor's prisons, like in Dickens' time. Don't put it past them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. What part of "public option" is ambiguous to you? n/t

[yurbud]

10. my guess: gop will eventually fold, Dems will be the new business-owned party and

small parties further left will coalesce into one new major party about as quickly as the Republicans did in the 1850s.

[Hannah Bell]

14. i've been kind of thinking this is a party realignment period too.

the dems ain't the party of the new deal any longer, that's for sure - & the pubs seem to be some weird mix of low taxes + religion - which isn't going to be viable in economic depression, the working class religious won't be buying the gospel of low taxes if they don't have jobs.

[yurbud]

49. I hope you're right about the last part. Also, the rich will abandon the GOP in a heartbeat if

they can't put together a winning voting bloc.

Suddenly, we won't hear another peep about abortion, gays, guns, or God, even though the number of people who believe in the far right positions on those issues haven't changed (but their ability to attract swing voters has).

[glitch]

30. Yup. nt

[orpupilofnature57]

12. Kaiser Permanente, why doesn't anybody start there and follow the

money.

[Hannah Bell]

15. interesting, could you expand on that thought?

[orpupilofnature57]

56. At that point in time we were sold down the river by Trickie Dick when Profit....

took precedence over Care ,Kaiser Permanete sold it ,Nixon made it legitimate.

[tavalon]

22. What if?

It will take a minor miracle for it not to be a huge boondoggle that benefits Aetna far more than it does you and me.

[Dawgs]

23. The republicans still lose. n/t

[Amos Moses]

24. If this doesn't get done right, the entire working class loses

and it will mean Barack only serves one term.

[alarimer]

25. I hope it is a huge disaster.

It will only move us closer to single payer.

If it is "successful" it will take that much longer. Successful will just mean forcing people to buy catastrophic care that will cover nothing, just to avoid the fines.

The way it looks now is that it is just a giveaway to insurance companies. I am sure they'll love that. And cutting Medicare to pay for it is just horrible. So I hope it fails this time.

[ipaint]

27. The for profit medical industry knows that.

Which is why they insisted folks be shackled to them by law for life. If this passes it should be interesting what repubs decide to do with the new underclass of insurance dead beat criminals when they regain power. The for profit prison industry has probably already started their lobbying campaign in gleeful anticipation.

[Greyhound]

26. K&R. It will.

What comes out of this will be another corporate welfare program that ensures that nothing will change for another generation.

More people will die, fewer will get decent care, and it will cost even more making us less able to change this abomination in the future. They are cutting the positive examples of socialized medicine to pay part of the tab for this corporate welfare program. And as an added bonus, we can turn poverty into a federal crime, yippee!

Obama & Co. have squandered the opportunity of a generation to pay their masters.
:kick: & R

[glitch]

28. I feel exactly the same way. k&r nt

[KharmaTrain]

29. 2009 Isn't 1968...

I can't see anything coming out of this process that won't be better than what currently exists. At least its begun the much needed focus on the health issues millions face that will only become more problematic as us Baby Boomers get older and start moving into Medicare.

A failed reform will cost both parties...especially the Democrats as they have the control to get this thing done. No I don't see people hitting the streets. Where? Washington? And who can afford to travel when we're trying to hold onto jobs and other family obligations.

My future votes will ride heavy on what happens. That's where the price needs to be paid. Any Democrat that votes against true reform...public option will lose not only my vote and any support, but I will gladly donate and work for any primary challenger so we get rid of our own obstructionists.

The status quo won't last much longer...even the insurance lobby knows it, they just want to milk every last penny. If healthcare reform isn't done now, it will keep coming back...especially when millions not only lose coverage but we start counting the bodies.

[spanone]

31. Obama won't sign a shitty bill.

[progressoid]

32. IF??? I expect it to be another turd like the prescription drug bill.

Frankly, there hasn't been enough complaining by the big players in this (Insurance Cos, for profit hospitals, Phama, etc). That tells me they are OK with whatever is coming at them. They expect to make a killing on this.

And we're the ones getting killed.

[kenny blankenship]

33. Fret not! it's bound to have something like a 99 year sunset clause.

We'll fix it eventually. This is just a first step.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. It is already designed to discriminate against families who

do not get the approval stamp of the Office of Faith Based Discrimination. There is language that demands GLBT families be excluded, and the reason for that is the religionist bigots who worship their own prejudices under the name 'God'.
A bigoted law. Those who support such law are in fact, supporters of discrimination and prejudice.

A single payer system that includes all would be fair, and not designed to please the vicious bigots in our party such as Joshua DuBois, Leah Daughtry, and Tim Kaine. They are highly bigoted people, who are certain that their hate is God given, just as all bigots in history have been. Gott mit uns! The faith of the Slave Traders still sees humans as property.
And DU's bigoted majority will gleefully support any prejudiced law that harms others. They ignore bloody police attacks against rooms full of gay people, in which victims of police brutality were hospitalized from their injuries. They could not care less if they tried.

[Mythsaje]

35. Seriously?

Did I miss something?

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!!!! NO!

great, albeit factless, rant.

[varelse]

36. If it does, we are looking at a one-term President

with Mitt Romney or Bobby Jindal to follow.

Let's hope it really doesn't stink

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. It it has the current strong public option, it will be good.

I am very optimistic.

[ipaint]

44. The current strong public option?

There isn't one. Minor point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. It competes directly against private insurance.

And will be cheaper.

YMMV. I consider that a strong public option.

[dysfunctional press]

40. "IF?"

i expect nothing less than total capitulation to the interests of BIG BIG insurance and BIG BIG pharma.

it's the american corporatist way.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

43. I am extremely anxious about what we might end up with. Why so long to implement

the roll back of some of the most egregiously evil policies of the insurers like rescission and no prior conditions? Why don't those go into effect IMMEDIATELY instead of 2011 and 2013? I cynically see that as just one last gorge for the insurers at the people's expense.

[spin]

45. If it really stinks but gets passed...

and people end up paying more for less healthcare, our party will lose seats at the midterm and possibly control of Congress and the Presidency in 2012.

If we end up with a shitty system it's because our politicians are bought and paid for by the big heath insurance companies and pharmaceutical corporations. This is nothing to play politics with.

Actually we need people in the street NOW not after the reform passes. If the politicians feel that the citizens really don't care enough about heathcare reform to leave their precious episodes of American Idol behind for a while and protest, they will never consider irritating their corporate masters.

We need Code Pink, Project Acorn, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Michael Moore, Bill Clinton and all the willing Hollywood celebrities to take up the cause and raise some Hell until we get REAL change.

[Cleita]

46. I think it's gonna stink to high heaven.

We need to insist that an improved Medicare as laid out in the HR 676 House bill be available as the public option. I figure that everyone who wants to be covered by it can be charged $100 a month, the same amount that we seniors pay for it. They can also lift the Medicare cap on P/R taxes. That should get the money to pay for the indigent, unemployed, handicapped, children and anyone else without an income to pay for it. They could also tax corporations for each job that has been outsourced overseas that could be done here.

[Faryn Balyncd]

48. Then we'll need to work like hell to defeat it, & regroup for the fiture