Healthcare Reform: Bi-partisanship between Liberals and Libertarians

[Coffee and Cake]

This is more of a hypothetical post to try and find common ground with policy. .

Being a Libertarian, I am very concerned, not only about our spending, but they way we spend. Our spending is out of control and it has been for the past eight years. What is excaberating the problem is relying upon borrowing and printing money to finance our endeavors is a grave mistake. So, before we spend, I think we need to cut first.

The first place I would cut is our Middle East extravaganzas. I feel that the Democrats won power in 2006 and 2008 because of their opposition to the Iraq War and our Middle East policy, but have failed to carry through on their word. If you disagree, then please say so.

If I was in office and sitting across the aisle, I would ask you to end our Middle East extravaganzas first in order to free up money to spend on Healthcare instead of relying upon borrowing and printing. Would you work with me?

[Tobin S.]

1. That would work for me

I wanted to end our "Middle East extravaganzas" before they started.

[Oregone]

2. Id rather start by locking up Libertarians in state mental hospitals, paid for by their taxes

[leftstreet]

3. ...

:spray:

[Coffee and Cake]

4. So, you can't find any common ground with me?

In other words, you you think it is wise to continue the occupation of Iraq, escalate the Afghanistan War with no exit strategy, and continue to spend via borrowing and printing. Since I disagree with you, you want to lock me up.

I hope you are drunk and being stupid.

[Oregone]

7. Of course I can.

A broke clock is right twice a day (example: Ron Paul's war stance--he is batshit nuts about everything else).

Its not that I disagree with you. Its just that libertarianism is a documented mental illness (DSM 7.3). Id rather admit I was into kiddie on monkey porn

Barely drunk

[Coffee and Cake]

13. Obviously, you can't.

I never brought Ron Paul into this argument nor did I bring any other libertarian views into this argument besides peace and balancing the books, but you took it as open recess to bash libertarianism.

I am asking for you to end our Middle East extravaganzas in order to free up money to spend on your social programs and you responded with vitriolic language, ad homs, and strawmens.

[leftstreet]

14. LOL you just blew it right there...

"I am asking for you to end our Middle East extravaganzas in order to free up money to spend on your social programs"

:rofl:

[Coffee and Cake]

17. No, very good point. Thank you for pointing it out. I'll fix it.

I am asking for you to end our Middle East extravaganzas in order to free up money to spend on our social programs.

You are absolutely right, I used poor rhetoric to strengthen my argument. I apologize.


I am still asking to balance the books or at least make an attempt to.

[leftstreet]

19. And I'm still waiting to see if you endorse nonprofit healthcare

:shrug:

[Coffee and Cake]

20. I prefer non profit healthcare, so I would endorse it

Would I legislate against profits? No, since I don't believe I have that right either.

By all means, describe profits in the healthcare industry since that would clear some confusions.

[leftstreet]

21. Then you're not a Libertarian n/t

[Coffee and Cake]

22. I am very much so. Why do you say otherwise?

[leftstreet]

5. If you're a Libertarian then you favor free markets

2.9 Health Care

We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want, the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of their medical care, including end-of-life decisions.

http://www.lp.org/platform

:shrug:

[Coffee and Cake]

8. Yes, I know. (explanation below)

I believe in priorities and the greater priority is to first practice fiscal responsibility. This "guns and butter" strategy didn't work for LBJ, Bush, and it is not going to work for Obama.

Being a fiscal conservative, I believe that we should cut elsewhere before we start to spend in other areas. In the good spirit of bipartisanship, I thought we could reach some middle ground here, which is cut back on our Middle East extravaganza in order to pay for our domestic programs.

Do you disagree with this and do you disagree with balancing the books?

As for the free market, I believe that the healthcare industry is one of the most regulated industries that is subject to crony capitalism (i.e. lobbyists influencing politicians for their personal gains).

Again, do you disagree?

[leftstreet]

9. "before we start to spend in other areas"

So you're advocating national single payer nonprofit healthcare?

[ColbertWatcher]

6. "Would you work with me?" I think you have that backwards. n/t

[Coffee and Cake]

11. Yes, I would

If you can balance the books, then I would work with you.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. May I ask how old you are? n/t

[Coffee and Cake]

18. Yes, you can

But I don't see its relevance.

[ColbertWatcher]

43. So, you won't be telling your age then? n/t

[Joe the Liberal]

10. Ending the two wars that should have never been started in the first place would be....

a huge step in the right direction, so yea I would work with you in that regard. All that money that gets thrown down the toilet for war could be better used here to help people rather than be used to needlessly kill people elsewhere.

[Coffee and Cake]

28. Cool. Glad we could find common ground.

[Quantess]

12. Should we wait for health care reform

until after we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq?
Is that your question?

[Coffee and Cake]

15. Yes, Guns or Butter, Not Guns and Butter

Dems were preaching anti-War and withdrawal words for how long......

Obama was supposed to bring home 1-2 brigades each month, criticize a no exit by the Bush administration, yet escalates a war with no exit strategy.

The guns and butter strategy didn't work well for LBJ or Bush, so I don't think you should expect difference from Obama.

Yes, I am asking you to choose between guns or butter.

[Quantess]

23. If it would be plausible to simultaneously end the wars and offer significant health care reform

then of course I would be for that.
But if you are suggesting that health care reform is contingent upon drastic defense cuts, I think that is not only realistic, it is unfair to the American people.

Edit to add: And no, it is not plausible to get our government to do both simultaneously, as though it were a simple switcheroo of funding. That isn't how our government does things.

[Coffee and Cake]

25. I believe it is plausible and no

I am not saying that HC reforem is contigent on drastic defense, but should be contigent on cutting spending. Before you spend in one place, cut back in another place.

I was only trying to be bipartisan and suggest that we pull out of the ME in order to fund our social programs.

Just trying to find common ground.

[Quantess]

30. How is it "bipartisan" to wish to exit Iraq and Afghanistan, AND get healthcare reform?

To get both, would be the liberal/progressive's dream come true. I don't see Republicans in a rush to get out of the Middle East. What's so "bipartisan" about your idea?

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea. I know it won't happen that way, but it would be great if your idea were realistic.

[Coffee and Cake]

38. I am sad

I am sad that you don't think my idea is realistic, in which it has the utmost possibility to be feasibility and the Dems are standing in my way.

[Quantess]

42. I'm sad, too, and it's not just you and I.

Millions of Americans would like to see all the troops come home, yesterday. So far our wishes haven't come true. Eventually troop withdrawal can be expected, but that may be years away. People can't wait that long for health care reform.

Are any Republicans standing in your way? They were the ones who started the Iraq invasion. However, point taken that Dems are the current majority and have yet been a disappointment.

In any case, since when have our government officials ever reasoned to cut the defense budget in order to afford social programs? I would love to see that happen, but unfortunately if their past behavior is any indication of the future, it seems about as likely as a unicorn sharing bong hits with a wizard.

[Greyhound]

24. The content of your post shows that you lack even a basic understanding of economics.

The rest of this is the side show to keep you distracted from what is going on.

See Ned Beatty's speech in the film "Network" as a start, that is literal truth and what we are up against.

[Coffee and Cake]

26. lol...wut?

You do know that Kucinich would support my idea rather than make an unsupported claim on my understanding of economics.

Wow, just wow.

[Greyhound]

34. Your quoted statement is all the support that is required.

"Our spending is out of control and it has been for the past eight years. What is excaberating the problem is relying upon borrowing and printing money to finance our endeavors is a grave mistake."

Dennis does support the idea of stopping the ongoing mass-murder to protect corporate interests and he does support a universal, single payer, health care system, but he also understand how he economy works, who controls it, as well as their motivations. Your parroting of the reich-wing meme of borrowing and spending demonstrates that you do not.

[Coffee and Cake]

37. Can you please speak English and back your claims?

You said that I don't understand economics, yet failed to provide backing statements of your accusations.

No offense, but you are one of those "nuts" that give Dennis a bad name with your incoherent remarks. I severely disagree with Dennis on many issues, but I cannot help believe that me and him would end our Middle Extravaganzas while we would disagree where the money should be spent.

Dennis is a good man, and would work with me. Please stop giving him a bad name.

[Greyhound]

40. So, because your capacity of comprehension, and command, of the English language is very limited

I'm a nut?

OK, I'll go slow.

You wrote, "What is excaberating (sic) the problem is relying upon borrowing and printing money to finance our endeavors is a grave mistake".

Since the Federal Reserve Act, the only method our government has to raise money is to borrow it from the Federal Reserve which you may or may not know is a quasi-private central bank, not a part of the government. The money they take from you through taxation is used to service the debt owed to the Federal Reserve. Further, all the money created through the lending mechanism of our private banking system (except for the interest they charge) is based on debt, your promise to repay the money you borrow. Next, the "government" prints less than 2% of the U.S. currency in use. Thus, the notion that the problem is government borrowing and printing money is wrong on both counts, compounded by your follow up, "to finance our endeavors". This statement demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of our monetary and economic systems.

The ideas of ending this criminal war and universal, not-for-profit, single payer health care are not your ideas, he has been arguing for them for years. He does not claim any allegiance to the short-sighted and monumentally ignorant philosophy of "libertarianism" as you do. From what you have written, it appears that you fall into the "even a stopped clock is right twice a day" category.

You have reached the right conclusions, apparently, by a confluence of sheer luck and self interest. Dennis Kucinich holds similar views but arrives at these views through understanding and experience.

BTW, he also advocates reforming the Fed and the banking system.

[johnaries]

27. There are many different kinds of Libertarians.

How would you classify yourself? Do you, for instance, follow the philosphies of Objectivism as laid out by Ayn Rand?

[Coffee and Cake]

29. In my opinion, I think there are two types of libertarians.

And the deciding factor is natural resources. Those on the right, believe in first come, first serve. Those on the left, believe in some sort of democratic process to decide ownership of natural resources since they were not created by labor.

I am on the left side of this argument, but I do not believe that healthcare is a natural resource.

I am not sure that Ayn Rand ever addressed this problem, but I would put her on the right....but I cannot be sure.

Does that answer your question?

[johnaries]

32. Not exactly, but a very interesting response.

I've talked to a lot of different Libertarians, including a Socialist Libertarian who used to post here. Most people here now automatically think of Libertarians as Right-Wing, which is why you got some rather "cool" responses. Just a heads-up, you might want to identify yourself here as a Leftist to avoid confusion.

As for your original post, yes, I believe that our history of sticking our nose into the Mid-East for decades has caused us a lot of problems. We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place, and we should pull out. However, there are logistical considerations as well as political ones. I remember hearing several experts say that it would take almost a year logistically to pull out. Obama has begun the withdrawal, and I believe the timetable set is pretty realistic.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, that is a different matter entirely. I supported the invasion of Afghanistan because the ruling Taliban was harboring and aiding al Qaeda which attacked us. Now, because Bush basically ignored Afghanistan, many problems have arisen there which will come back and bite us on the butt if we don't do some clean-up. Also, we need to finish rooting out the al Qaeda strongholds there and now in Pakistan.

But, yes, the sooner we can finish up and pull out of there the more funds we will have for other things - such as health care.

[Coffee and Cake]

35. I described a measure of demarcation, did I not?

I know that fake Republicans masked around as fake libertarians, who are just butthurt neocons and disenfranchised Reaganites.

I am not going to define myself as a leftist, since I have different views of the federal government's responsibility than most leftists.

I do admit that, it is confusing, but I do have a strong sense of anti-war, pro-civil liberties, and small government. And quite frankly, neither the right or the left share my views.

[johnaries]

39. Fair enough. BTW, I loved this line:

"I know that fake Republicans masked around as fake libertarians, who are just butthurt neocons and disenfranchised Reaganites."
:rofl:
Excellent description!

I am just saying that if you present yourself as a "Libertarian" here with no further explanation, a lot of people are going to assume you are one of those "butthurt neocons and disenfranchised Reaganites".

I once heard Jesse Ventura describe Libertarian as "socially progressive and fiscally conservative". I never thought I would ever agree with Jesse "the Body" Ventura, but I thought that was a pretty good stance.

As for myself, I do believe we need Health Care Reform and I also believe we need to balance the Federal Budget and bring the deficit down. And I do believe we can do both.

Are we in agreement? If so, then by all means let's work together!

[Naturyl]

31. Why would a libertarian want government health care?

I've never met a libertarian who wanted anything to do with it, so maybe you can be the first...

[johnaries]

33. He's a Leftist Libertarian, not Right-Wing. nt

[Coffee and Cake]

36. I am asking you to balance the books

In order to find common ground, I'd suggest pulling out of the Middle East.

[Naturyl]

41. No problem for me. I want them out of there anyway.

Although I honestly don't care about "balancing the books." People need health care regardless.