(NYT) Black men more likely to be locked up for what police call getting “lippy"

[tj2001]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/us/25cop.html?hpw

As Officers on the Street Face Heated Words, Their Tactics Vary
By MICHAEL WILSON and SOLOMON MOORE

...A mounted police officer who has been with the Los Angeles Police Department for 25 years said that taking verbal abuse was a regular part of his job. “We don’t get to tell people what they want to hear,” said the Los Angeles officer, who, like others interviewed for this article, spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid being quoted on duty. “Whether we’re giving them a ticket or responding to some conflict between a husband and wife, we’re not dealing with people at their best, and if you don’t have a tough skin, then you shouldn’t be a cop.”

The officer said he recently confronted a woman walking in the middle of the street and asked her to step out of traffic. She refused and became belligerent, using a string of four-letter words and ethnic epithets. He said he wrote the woman a ticket and went on his way....

In New York, State Senator Eric Adams, a retired New York City police captain and co-founder of the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement, said the rules for dealing with someone differed by setting. “If it’s their house, they’re allowed to call you all sorts of names,” Mr. Adams said. “A man’s house is his castle. If they’re in the street, and they don’t listen to the officer’s warning, ‘Sir, you’re being disorderly,’ you can lock them up at this time.”

Not that the officer necessarily should, he said. “Let’s say I do a stop,” Mr. Adams said. “I question, and it’s nothing. ‘Sir, I’m sorry, I apologize.’ What’s the reason for staying, if the anger’s directed at me? If it’s directed at a third party, a storekeeper, I stay.” But if the officer himself is the provocation, the officer should leave, he said, and added that Sergeant Crowley did not use such common sense...

Senator Adams said black men were more likely to be locked up for what in police parlance is called getting “lippy.” “The ‘uppity Negro,’ ” he said. “You may not have committed a crime, but you know what? You’ve got a big mouth.”

[nosmokes]

1. This is *News*?

[tblue37]

4. Of course not, but since so many people pretend otherwise, it is nice to

see it told so publicly, on the pages of the NYT. Sometimes the truth needs to be effectively publicized, even if some of us already know it.

[Number23]

11. To a depressingly, mind-blowingly large number of DUers... yes.

[These Eyes]

26. Did you notice how quickly the subject of this thread changed?

They can't even stay on topic or see the big picture. Denial is such an amazing thing.:crazy:

[Cha]

2. Thanks, it's interesting and

all kinds of debate and opportunity is coming out from this chaos that erupted when Prof Gates was arrested in his home.

[LisaL]

3. So the woman is walking in the middle of the street, in traffic, and

refuses to stop doing it, and the cop just let's her continue on? Is this given as an example of what is supposed to be done in such a situation, or what?

[TheMadMonk]

6. If it's something along the lines of "I'll effing do what I effing like...

... It's a effing free country. I know my effing rights" then damn straight. The world needs more statistics like that. Though I would be sorry for the poor bastard who cleans her up.

Given that this is a cop who doesn't automatically side with Crowley and his other common sense examples, I'd say he has pretty damned decent judgment, I'd say this woman was neither a danger nor in danger, just a mouthy bitch.

[LisaL]

7. A good judgement is to allow a woman walking in the middle

of the street in traffic to continue going on her way?
O'key.
:eyes:

[TheMadMonk]

8. Again, if it were obvious she was not mentally ill or otherwise...

...incapacitated then yes. Any feelings I have would be for the poor driver who gets her for a hood ornament.

Actually reading between the lines, it would seem the woman provided her name, accepted her jaywalking citation with very poor grace, and in all probability got off the carriageway as she was asked to do. The point the mounted cop was making is that you take the abuse on the chin and do your job.

And by the way learn to recognise hyperbole when you see it, you can then be propperly offended at a larger number of real outrages before apoplexy takes you away.

[LisaL]

9. He asked her to step out of traffic and she refused.

How am I to understand it but that she continued to walk in the middle of the street and the cop left here there?

[TheMadMonk]

10. Because he also gave her a citation, which means she did...

...submit to authority to the point of giving her name, etc. and I would guess (i think rightly) that she did ultimately comply, or he WOULD HAVE cuffed her and called for a car to drag her traffic obstructing arse down to the station for psychiatric evaluation, her own protection and the protection of those legally entitled to occupy the carriageway.

THE POINT THE COP WAS MAKING, was that it is a part of their job as cops to take non-threatening abuse on the chin whilst performing their duties. Personally, I think that this specific scenario (screaming obscenities and racial epithets in public) is one where a charge of disorderly conduct could and should have been made to stick.

[LisaL]

15. The way this article is written, the woman refused to leave the street, and the cop

walked away after writing her a ticket.
If she eventually complied after initially refusing to comply, one would think the article should have said that.
Otherwise I am led to believe that the cop left a woman walking in the middle of the street and that is an example of good judgment.

[TheMadMonk]

19. Whether or not it was specifically stated, common sense...

...leads me to (safely I believe) assume that no cop cool enough to take the verbal abuse that she was said to have hurled, would at the same time be stupid enough to actually leave her in the middle of the street, particularly with a citation made out by him in her pocket/purse. He would be dead, dead, dead in the water, if she subsequently turned up in the emergency room or on a mortuary slab and that were found.

Look, I am amongst the first to put the metaphorical boot in, if it is clear (or even probable) that a cop has behaved badly, but unless there is some actual evidence to demostrate such behaviour, I will use COMMON SENSE to interpret whatever information I do have about a given situation and I WILL NOT automatically assume that all cops are pigs OR reach for a conclusion that is ABSOLUTELY dependent on such an assumption as you appear to have done.

[omega minimo]

13. From the description it sounds like she probably was mentally ill -- and he wrote her a ticket.

[TheMadMonk]

18. What i get from the description, first and foremost, ...

...is that she and he had differing coloured skins, and that she was a right royal racist bitch. And that under the circumstances stated, whatever her colour and assuming lack of valid provocation, I'd be amongst the first to applaud as he used any legal technicality whatsoever to get her racially villifying arse off the streets for even a few hours.

I will concede the possibility that she was/is mentally ill, but I will assume that no cop, not even Clancy Wiggam, would be stupid enough to leave someone they had any reason to believed to be a danger to themselves or others in the middle of a street with nothing more than a jaywalking citation.

[omega minimo]

20. Wow. You are mad.

[TheMadMonk]

23. Nice personal attack. Care to explain your reasoning?

Here I will step you through mine.

"The officer said he recently confronted a woman walking in the middle of the street and asked her to step out of traffic. She refused and became belligerent, using a string of four-letter words and ethnic epithets. He said he wrote the woman a ticket and went on his way...." (emphasis mine)



For the purpose of the exercise I will assume he did not begin the encounter with "Hey bitch, get your stupid arse off the road." and that he made a reasonable request that she vacate the carriagway or in all probability he would not have used it as an example.

She responded as I highlighted above. He wrote her a ticket, for which he must somehow have gotten her name. I suppose he may have thrown her to the tarmac and forcibly obtained some sort of ID from her, but I will use common sense and assume that if such were the case, he would not call attention to himself by bringing the matter up like this, thus I presume she eventually volunteered the information, even if it was a case of "Give me your name so I can write you a ticket, or I'll be forced to arrest you and we can finish this at the station."

And finally as I've already said to LisaL, I would assume, with a fair degree of confidence, that he did not ride away leaving her still standing in the middle of the road, since it would have been more than his job is worth if he'd left her there and she was subsequently injured. Mentally ill or not he almost certainly saw her to a position of relative safety before leaving her.

I choose not to believe she exhibited any obvious signs of being mentally ill, because yet again, it would have made this incident a piss poor example to illustrate the point that cops should take abuse on the chin and do their job.

I may be wrong in assuming her state of mental health based upon logical inferences from the information at hand, but I susspect I am much less likely to be wrong than you with you apparrent assumption that in any cop/citizen encounter it must be the cop at fault if by any reach he can be placed in the wrong.



What if she were mentally ill and he'd exercised his only other option under the circumstances and "detained" her for her own safety? What would your reaction have been then? I can damned near guarantee that someone (and I am not trying to point any fingers at you personally) here would have come up with something along the lines of "Filthy pigs arrest mentally ill woman for jaywalking."

[yodermon]

5. +1 for "if you don’t have a tough skin, then you shouldn’t be a cop"

[JI7]

14. yup, people in low paying customer service jobs like at retail stores are expected

to maintain certain types of behavior no matter how much of an asshole the customer is being.

and that's more important for someone who is a cop to do.

[LisaL]

16. Yea, customer is always right.

:eyes:

[JI7]

17. they aren't, but the employee is expected to stay above it

and that should be even more true for cops .

[ColbertWatcher]

12. Well, the Constitution does say that ... doesn't it? n/t

[JonLP24]

21. Reminds me of a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq_RvJ7CtOw

Here this guy he pulls over apparently for speeding. Completely dresses this officer with all sorts of foul language and screaming at the top of his lungs. He basically says worse things then "black in America." The cop completely keeps his cool and only informs him on need to know things. The funny part is the guy tears up a ticket and throws in out the window. The cop calmly asks him to pick it up or he'll have to write him for littering. He quickly opens the door while the cop is next to(Surprised he didn't get tasered or tackled for doing that) and picks up some pieces and gets inside. The cop tells him he forgot a piece. Anyways the guy completely dresses down the cop with more foul language.

But here is the kicker, the guy didn't go to jail and was able to drive off with nothing but a speeding ticket.

[tavalon]

22. Living while black

Driving while black. Talking back to power hungry idiots while black. There's a trend.

[L. Coyote]

24. Obviously, Sergeant Crowley acted stupidly!

[marshall]

25. The article clouds the issue by using a gender example rather than a race example

"Black men more likely to be arrested...." but more likely than who? In light of the Gates debacle I assumed the focus would be on race, but the example points at gender and makes little effort to redirect the focus.

[noiretextatique]

27. more likely than anyone

i would assume.