A simple question: Did the cop know who was supposed to live in the house?

[kentuck]

Would he not call his HQs to find out some facts before he went to the scene? Would that not be SOP? If he had done that, would he not know that the address was of Prof. Henry Louis Gates? Do they not have Lexis-Nexis at the Police Dept?

Once the Professor identified himself, should not that have been the end of it?

Now I watch the "brother" police officers on TV demanding an apology from Barack Obama and the Governor of MA. They have received emails of support from all over the nation, they say. How about we get an apology from the Police Department for acting stupidly? Huh?

[MajorChode]

1. Even if he did, what difference would that have made?

Do you think Henry Louis Gates' picture is going to pop up on Officer Crowley's PDA?

Once Gates identified himself, indeed that should have been the end of it, but Gates didn't allow it to end and that comes from both his account and the officers'.

[redqueen]

2. How did he not allow it to end?

Did he keep the officers from leaving after it was established there was no burglary?

[elleng]

4. That may be 'THE' question;

what exactly occurred after he'd confirmed no break in, just trying to get into 'MY HOUSE.'

[sandnsea]

9. The cop wouldn't leave

and wouldn't give his name and badge number. That's when the escalation occurred and they arrested him.

[Javaman]

22. Shhh, don't bring facts into the conversation...

it ruins the story for the insane defend-cops-at-all-costs nuts.

[hfojvt]

24. those aren't facts, just one person's version of events

Since they quickly ended up on the porch, I am not sure how much credence I give to a 'the cop wouldn't leave' storyline.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. Who's porch?

'ended up on the porch' - that would be the porch that is the private property of Professor Gates, yes?

[sandnsea]

64. Why didn't the cop keep walking?

The cop was walking out the door and should have kept going. There was no need to arrest anybody.

[Iggo]

77. Then, according to your logic, there are no facts.

Huh?

[hfojvt]

23. that's not the cop's side of the story

he said a) that he gave his name right from the start and b) that he prepared to leave once he saw the Harvard ID and c) that he tried to give his name again but was shouted down by Gates. I don't know that any of that actually happened, but it is the other side of the story and Figueroa was reportedly there to affirm or deny it.

[sandnsea]

63. Name, not badge number

See, you miss that little part. Gates asked for name AND badge number. The cop didn't give a card or anything official, just spouted off a name.

Figueroa came in AFTER Gates gave the ID to Crowley because he heard Gates saying "No I won't". That happened after Crowley was shown the ID because even Crowley says that he saw it. Both Gates and Figueroa state that Gates said "No I won't", but Gates said it was after he had shown the ID and Crowley continued questioning him.

Regardless, all Crowley had to do is give his name and badge number and leave. That was his responsibility. Hand Gates his card, that all cops have, and leave.

[TexasObserver]

67. The cop contrived the arrest, which is why he had to get Gates to come outside.

The cop got pissy because he didn't like what Gates said to him inside the house.

The cop knew that no case for Disorderly Conduct would stand inside the house, so he had to get Gates outside. This was simply a case of a pissed off officer manipulating Gates to get him outside, so the cop could claim there was a case of Disorderly Conduct.

[MajorChode]

5. No

Do you think that's the only way he could not have allowed it to end?

[redqueen]

6. I'm asking you how Gates didn't allow it to end. (nt)

[MajorChode]

14. He pursued the officers even as they were attempting to leave

Gates himself admits as much.

Had he exercised his right to remain silent at the appropriate time, he probably would never had been cuffed and stuffed.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. So his crime was 'speaking while black on his porch"?

He is not allowed to do this?

[MajorChode]

20. No

Any more irrelevant questions?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. So what was his crime?

And why, if Gates acted wrongly and Crowley acted correctly, were the charges dropped?

Better question: why did the professional law enforcement officer, having verified that there was no crime, not defuse the angry resident he had accosted in his own home by simply leaving? Was his car broken? Could he not find his way back to that car? Was he somehow compelled to stay there and listen to the angry black man on the angry black man's porch? Were Crowley's feet perhaps glued to that porch? Since when is being angry on one's own porch a crime? Oh wait, it isn't a crime. Arrest: stupid. Charges: dropped.

[MajorChode]

42. Here's why the charges were dropped

The charges amounted to a $40 fine. It's hardly worth the prosecution when the alleged has already suffered and said prosecution would cost many times more than it's worth. You can get virtually any low misdemeanor dropped if the case against you is largely subjective, and this is no more true than in disorderly conduct arrests. They are routinely dropped all over the country on people who don't happen to be Harvard professors. Imagine that. It doesn't mean any of them are innocent, it just means the DA has exercised prosecutorial discretion. At least 95% of the law is bluff. And disorderly conduct is a very bad bluff.

So continue to make your appeals to emotion and irrelevancies if you want, but such is no substitute for logic or reason.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. So let me get this straight.

In a hugely public case where the credibility of the Cambridge Police Department has been called into question, the (according to you) entirely justified charges of disorderly conduct were dropped not because these charges were not substantiated by the facts, but because it was not worth the effort to press the case?

Or perhaps, as you yourself more or less admit, it is because disorderly conduct charges are almost invariably unsustainable and are 'bluffs' - convenience charges made by police officers who have decided to arrest you no matter what the actual facts are. They are routinely used by police to harass people. These charges are routinely dropped as they are typically bullshit to begin with.

A disorderly conduct charge on one's own private property is worse than a bullshit charge not worth the effort, it is not applicable to the situation. Disorderly Conduct laws generally apply to public behavior, not to being an angry black man on an angry black man's porch.

[MajorChode]

58. You're almost there, just try a little harder

In a hugely public case where the credibility of the Cambridge Police Department has been called into question, the (according to you) entirely justified charges of disorderly conduct were dropped not because these charges were not substantiated by the facts, but because it was not worth the effort to press the case?

The police department has very little to do with whether the charges are dropped or not. The charges were dropped by the prosecutor. Whether the charges were dropped or not has nothing to do with the Cambridge PD's defense of credibility as such can be done whether the charges persist or not.

Or perhaps, as you yourself more or less admit, it is because disorderly conduct charges are almost invariably unsustainable and are 'bluffs' - convenience charges made by police officers who have decided to arrest you no matter what the actual facts are. They are routinely used by police to harass people. These charges are routinely dropped as they are typically bullshit to begin with.

I admit no such thing. Disorderly conduct statutes serve a very useful purpose. I suppose if you want to have a jaded opinion of law enforcement, you might think otherwise. But such laws serve the public every single day and practically every single jurisdiction in the US has a similar statute. What I'm saying is that almost all matters of law are bluff. That's why the vast majority of cases both criminal and tort never see the light of a courtroom. Many charges are dropped because it does not serve the public interest to spend thousands of dollars prosecuting a misdemeanor punishable by a $40 fine. So if you think it's always and forever about guilt or innocence, you are extremely naive.

A disorderly conduct charge on one's own private property is worse than a bullshit charge not worth the effort, it is not applicable to the situation. Disorderly Conduct laws generally apply to public behavior, not to being an angry black man on an angry black man's porch.

People are arrested for disorderly conduct on their own property all the time. Amazingly some of them aren't even black. Imagine that.

[lexanman]

72. so what is/are the very useful purposes

of the charge of Disorderly conduct?

[MajorChode]

78. I can think of quite a few

All of which cover just generally disruptive or belligerent behavior, which is not at all uncommon in practically every community in America.

I was working at a remote communication site many years ago and a guy stood outside the gate and yelled obscenities at me because he was pissed the site was being shut down and he wasn't going to get his lease check that he obviously used to buy cheap beer. The cops came and cuffed and stuffed him on a disorderly conduct charge.

[EFerrari]

37. He was attempting to get what they were by law required to give him,

their ID.

[redqueen]

41. Is that so...

so he wasn't 'not allowing it to end'... he was attempting to get information he was legally entitled to. Did the officer refuse to give it, as required by law?

[EFerrari]

44. He wrote into his report that he gave it numerous times.

But Gates says that he didn't give it and Gates resorted to asking the other officers at the scene for ID.

[Hannah Bell]

54. did he tackle or touch the officer or block his vehicle to keep him from going?

nothing i've seen indicates he did.

[Warren Stupidity]

56. He was arrested as soon as he stepped out onto his porch.

They couldn't enter the house. They just waited for him to step out.

[MajorChode]

61. Nor did I claim he did

So do you have any other irrelevant questions or lies for us, Hannah?

[Hannah Bell]

62. how is it he prevented them from going, then?

[MajorChode]

65. Are you a broken record?

Explain how "Gates didn't allow it to end" = "he prevented them from going".

Another example of you reading one thing and comprehending something different. Kinda like when you lied and claimed I said I wanted SS to go away, no?

[Hannah Bell]

68. if he "didn't allow it to end," it implies he somehow prevented the officer from leaving.

i'm asking how he did that.

[MajorChode]

69. Try reading either the police report or Gates own comments

Or just make shit up as you go along like you usually do.

It's not as if you have any credibility to lose.

[Hannah Bell]

71. you can't answer the question - because "didn't allow it to end" is bollocks.

the officer is the one who "didn't allow it to end".

gates was in his own home. the officer had the option of walking away once he verified gates' identity.

he chose not to.

[MajorChode]

73. Gates had the option of shutting the door

and allowing the officers to leave.

Obama has already admitted Gates' account is probably not accurate. Why can't you, Hanny?

Ah, but why admit that when you can always just make shit up, no?

Have a nice day.

[lexanman]

74. how did Mr Gates physically stop the officer? How's that smartass

or did his breath stop the cop. Answer my previous question too. What are the useful purposes of the charge of disorderly conduct if they are thrown out in the vast majority of cases?

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Yeah how dare Gates be upset and vocal about this?

And to a police officer? How dare he? I'm surprised Crowley didn't taser that uppity bastard.

:sarcasm:

[MajorChode]

19. Yes, how dare that cop actually do his job!

That shiftless bastard!

Do I even need the sarcasm smiley?

[EFerrari]

27. It's not his job to harrass the public. nt

[MajorChode]

35. No, that's what cops do. They harrass people.

That's why we pay taxes and every community in America has law enforcement officers. They never actually enforce the law, they just harass people.

To prove it, 99% of prison inmates say they are innocent. It must be true! Our whole legal system is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

[EFerrari]

39. It is true. That's why every police department has an office

that handles complaints and bad arrests.

[MajorChode]

43. It's all part of the smoke and mirrors

You can't possibly believe that the police are truly interested in ferreting out abuse of power, do you?

[EFerrari]

46. No, I don't believe that. And I have no reason to believe that.

[MajorChode]

47. Good for you brother!

Keep the anarchy alive!

[EFerrari]

49. You never saw Serpico, did you?

lol

And it's sister, not brother.

[MajorChode]

51. No wait, it's Sons of Anarchy

Yep, that's it.

Sounds good anyway.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. His job is to arrest people for being angry on their porch?

And then have the charges dropped? That is his job? I didn't know that.

[MajorChode]

34. Yes, absolutely! Cops arrest people on their porch in front of witnesses for doing nothing

It happens every day, all the time.

I got a speeding ticket dropped one time. That absolutely means I never speed, ever.

Seriesly.

[Warren Stupidity]

38. So what crime was it again that Gates committed?

[MajorChode]

45. I'm not going to make any absolute statements regarding what happened

I'll leave that to people who pretend to know the truth. You know, people like you. There's more than enough of those to go around and I hate feeling like a 5th wheel. YMMV.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. funny

not ha ha funny though

throughout this thread you have been making lots of statements regarding your certainty about what happened.

[MajorChode]

52. I've made statements about my certainty of the facts

Supported by links and proof, btw.

Not quite the same thing, but don't let that get in the way of a good appeal to emotion, eh?

You go girl!

[Hannah Bell]

57. he's also certain social security must go, he's a funny one,

[MajorChode]

60. Hannah once claimed Obama had 3 testicles and Ted Kennedy was Neville Chamberlain's secret lover

I'm not sure I'd put a lot of stock in what she says, but few people do.

[lexanman]

75. careful

your freep is showing.

[tuckessee]

36. Why would he be upset that the police responded to a B&E call? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

53. He wasn't upset about that.

He was upset at the way he felt he was being treated, even after having presented his ID, and more particularly, at the refusal of Officer Crowely to present his ID.

Gates was arrested because he refused to be submissive. As soon as he stepped onto the porch the police arrested him.

[EFerrari]

26. That police officer has business cards that he carries around for a reason.

He could have ended it by handing one to Dr. Gates.

[elleng]

3. Yes and No, I'd say.

I wouldn't want cops to wait and call, if they see someone(s) apparently attempting to break and enter my house.

However, once he's been told (by Prof. G), 'Its MY house,' he should attempt such. And of course, once he's seen the Prof's I.D., confirming address, he should apologize and leave. IMO.

[sandnsea]

7. Gates showed two IDs

A Harvard ID and a DL. The cop knew it was his house and should have left. If he wanted to do any follow-up, he didn't need to do it on the premises.

[DURHAM D]

8. Gates did not own the house -

and any database they accessed would have revealed the actual owner of the house and the fact it was not owner occupied.

There is no database of tenant names.

In other words - the information was not available.

[sandnsea]

11. The information was on his ID's

Do people not understand the cop WAS shown the ID.

[DURHAM D]

13. Do you not understand that that wasn't the question? nt

[kentuck]

17. I don't think that is true.

Lexis Nexis has most of our addresses whether we own or not.

[DURHAM D]

25. The official (readily available and free) records are the

Land Records, Register of Deeds, Tax Assessor in most counties.

The police department more than likely does not have Lexis. And google would have likely provided multiple occupants at that address - therefore it would have been of little value.

[Hannah Bell]

59. addresses available through standard police mv report.

[hfojvt]

10. what difference does it make?

Until Gates shows ID, I don't know what he looks like unless I watch Oprah or PBS. Once he shows ID, then it has his address on it too more than likely.

It should have and could have ended very painlessly with two simple moves by Gates 1) present your ID forthwith and 2) don't make a fuss about supposed racism.

Not, once again, that either of those justify and arrest, but they make the unpleasantness of being arrested look easily avoidable.

I don't think Obama has anything to apologize for, and I don't remember what Duval said.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. You forgot (3) cop departs and leaves citizen alone in his house. nt.

[hfojvt]

32. that was not something in Gates control

But since they did end up on the porch, the cop apparently did leave the house fairly quickly.

The cop definitely should have walked back to his car after saying 'I am sorry for the misunderstanding and hope you have a nice evening, sir.' Then he wouldn't have the President and many anonymous bloggers calling him stupid.

[Warren Stupidity]

33. The porch is part of the house and the cop was supposedly

the trained professional in this situation, the one who is supposed to know how to defuse situations. Leaving would mean getting off of the private property of Professor Gates. Not standing on the porch continuing the confrontation.

[Dappleganger]

66. +1

[VOX]

76. Thank you!!!!!! n/t

[seabeyond]

15. per the cops statement he knew gates belonged there and continued the process. everything after

that is on the cops shoulders.

[kentuck]

21. What happened to secure in your own home?

And where was the search warrant?

[DURHAM D]

28. I see now that you have an agenda and not a legitimate question.

I am sorry that I responded to your query. :hi:

[LisaL]

70. If the officer has a reasonable suspicion there was a crime

being committed, I don't think he needs a search warrant.
When the call of a possible break in came in, that gives the officer reasonable suspicion.
Imagine somebody breaks into your house and holds you hostage.
I sincerely doubt in that situation cops would need a search warrant to enter your house, if they had a reasonable suspicion you were held hostage.

[Fridays Child]

40. Yes. Gates had a right to be agitated, for the same reason we all would have been.

He was in his own house! Add to that a layer of anxiety that I can't even speak to which is the history of police brutality and racial profiling that he and other African Americans have had to endure, and it's easy to understand his reaction to being accosted. And Gates did not pose an imminent danger to anyone at the scene. So, to answer your question (well, one of them, anyway), once he identified himself, yes, that should have been the end of it.

The thing that nobody is talking about here is the training that Crowley has received in exercising restraint in cases just like this. We've all seen YouTube videos of cops keeping their cool and maintaining a professional demeanor while dealing with extremely angry people. Crowley did not do that, and to go to the public square in defense of his failure to handle the situation properly disgraces the uniform. Shame on him.

And shame on the Cambridge PD for backing publicly backing him. Regardless of their position, for the police department to enter the fray crosses the line between the roles of public servant and politician, in my opinion.

[Hannah Bell]

55. on tv "demanding" an apology, eh? sounds like a put-up job.

who's paying?