Re: Imus....Should African Americans be held to the same standard as Whites?

[INDIA]

Like everyone else here, I thought Imus' comments regarding the Rutgers players were despicable, and considering this is thread #38 on the subject, apparently it has has caused quite a stir here. He apologized, and in my opinion, should be fired.

But there is a double standard. African Americans seem to be able to make racist comments about whites, and it's no big deal. I'm a big fan of Dave Chappelle, and on his show he actually dresses up in "white face" makeup and does a "white guy" impression. It's hilarious, but if a caucasian male comedian tried to do the same thing, (black face, talking "black"), that comedian would catch hell (Ted Danson.) On BET last week, a black comedian was singling out whites at "Spring Bling" and asking them if they were lost. At african american comedy shows, the comedians routinely will single the few whites out of the audience and make fun of them because of their race. It seems good natured, but it is racist nonetheless.

I'm a young caucasian male, and I enjoy African American movies, comedians, music, etc. I really don't care when white people are being made fun of, but a lot of it really is racist. Should high profile black comedians, actors, and entertainers be held accountable for what is basically a reversal of what Imus did?

Another poster here on DU once explained to me that since whites are in the majority and have the power in this country, they shouldn't get away with making fun of the disadvantaged minority, but it's okay for the disadvantaged minority to get away with making racist fun of the advantaged majority. Is this right?

Or should I just accept this as "the way things are" and shut up? Are some double standards ok?

Thoughts? Comments?

[FredScuttle]

1. You really think Imus and Chappelle are the same?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[INDIA]

8. I'm a Stern fan, so I despise Imus anyway...

but Imus (supposedly) is some sort of comedian. He is high profile and in the public eye, Chappelle is too. Chappelle is obviously more popular and high profile, but I think that they are at least in the same ballpark.

But no, it wasn't my intention to DIRECTLY compare the two, that was just the first example that came to my mind, there are others in my post as well.

[FredScuttle]

14. Chappelle is the only black comedian you identify specifically

otherwise it's the old generic "black comedians make fun of white people"

Which black comedians? When?

If you didn't intend to directly compare Imus to Chappelle, why mention him (Chappelle) then?

[NormanYorkstein]

15. um, all of them? Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor

maybe I'm showing my age here I don't really know any new comedians :shrug:

They all make fun of blacks too. Does Imus?

Either way, I hope we can get him fired just to prove we can.

[INDIA]

23. Bernie Mac, Cedric the Entertainer....

The host of last weeks BET "Spring Bling", all examples off the top of my head. I'm sorry if I didn't do research for this post. I was trying to speak in generalities, and Chappelle is the first to spring to mind.

[FredScuttle]

28. We've got an example - Don Imus insulting the Rutgers women's basketball team

n/t

[INDIA]

So you're arguing that since I can't come up with a quote...

Blacks never (racially) make fun of Whites? Come on man, if you pay attention to pop culture, you know that's not true.

[FredScuttle]

45. Fine

then it should be quite easy for you to come up with a COMPARATIVE example.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. What are the racist things about white people that they say?

Can you find any?

[INDIA]

38. I've already listed a couple examples off the top of my head...

Reply #4 has an example. The Original Kings of Comedy guys have definitely singled out white audience members before. I doubt if the Redneck Comedy Tour did the same, it would be okay. On BET a comedian was finding white people at "Black" Spring Break and asking if they were lost. I've heard a black/female DJ tell aspiring white rappers to leave their music "to us."

And for Chappelle, he changes his voice, puts on white makeup, and attempts to act as stuck up, and lame as possible. I think it's funny, but I can recognize that the gag is racially based.

Again, I didn't do any research on this, looking for specific examples. I thought the conversation would discuss a generality, something that I though most people would be aware of.

[FredScuttle]

43. In other words, you got nothin'

It's ridiculous to compare a comedian on BET asking jokingly if white people at a PREDOMINATELY BLACK EVENT if they were lost to Don Imus calling a women's basketball team "nappy-headed hoes"

Call me when Chapelle calls Utah's WNBA team a bunch of flat-haired honky bitches.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. David Chappelle thinks white people are stuck up and lame?

Have you got anything to support that allegation?

[INDIA]

60. Yeah, he's sitting here right next to me. He told me so.

If you've ever watched the show, you'd know what I'm talking about. But you're just here to flame me anyway, so go ahead, make yourself feel better.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. I've watched the show.

Plenty of times.

I've never seen him saying or doing anything racist towards white people.

I think you're grasping at straws.

[INDIA]

65. HE PUTS ON WHITE FACE AND TALKS "WHITE."

That isn't racist? I think it's hilarious, but it's racist.

Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor, Chappelle, Original Kings of Comedy, Chris Rock, all have made fun of white people's mannerisms... not people's mannerisms, WHITE PEOPLE's mannerisms. It is racist. It is racially based. I don't think it is offensive (to me at least) but it happens, and it is racist.

I'm bascially saying "the sky is blue" and you're like "we'll I'm inside and can't see the sky, so you're grasping at straws."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. How, on earth, is it racist?

Imitating white news anchors is racist? Why?

You're not making any sense whatsoever.

[INDIA]

72. So if I paint my face black,,,

and speak like with an African American vocal inflection, you would say "why is that racist?"

I doubt that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Well, now black face is entirely another matter.

Black face has the added context of a hundred and fifty years of minstrelism.

You're not seriously comparing Chappelle with this:



Are you? Because that would be really ridiculous and obtuse. With blackface you've got ridicule, and scorn, and negative stereotypes, and mockery.

With Dave Chappelle, you've got simple imitation. No scorn, mockery, or ridicule involved.

Dave Chappelle also imitates Prince. You don't think Dave Chappelle hates Prince, do you?

[INDIA]

81. If I pull my eyes into narrow openings...

and speak with an Asian accent, is that racist? If I put on a sombrero, grow a handlebar moustache, and speak with a hispanic accent, is that racist?

Let decipher your point: Making fun of whites isn't racist, making fun of everyone else is. I get it now, i'm going to dinner, have a nice night.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Those poor, poor white people.

Help! Help! We're being repressed!

[INDIA]

131. And that's the best you can do?

I pose a question that you don't want to answer, and you then put words in my mouth, which are the exact opposite of what I've been saying the entire time. I am not offended, I don't really care when other races make fun of whites, but it is something I thought might be worth discussing.

Apparently I was right. A lot of people wanted to discuss my topic. Some just wanted to flame me, and engage in childish bantering. But I would expect no less from you.

[CatWoman]

"MAMMY"!!!!

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. Catwoman, you're such a racist.

Don't you realize how racist black entertainers are?

Just look at Richard Pryor. And, um, Phil Cosby. And Sammy Davis Jr., he was black. Oh, yeah, and those black rapper thugs that keep me indoors at night!

[CatWoman]

124. and Hermes too!!

tally my banana??

:rofl:

[NormanYorkstein]

91. actually, Chappelle is EXACTLY like that

The context - society - has changed a lot, so it means something different now. Ted Danson did blackface once, but was roundly criticized for it. Michael Richards did blackface in "UFO" and so did C. Thomas Howell in "Soul Man". Then there was "White Girls" - boy did that suck.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

98. Do you understand the meaning of the word "context?"

I'm just checking.

[NormanYorkstein]

103. do you understand the concept of "meaning"?

just checking

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. Yes.

But I'm not the one who's not making any sense.

[NormanYorkstein]

112. that's subjective

you should take a poll

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. You want to take a poll...

One whether or not Dave Chappelle is a racist, and the equivalent of 1920s minstrel shows?

What do you think would be the results of such a poll?

[uppityperson]

79. White Men Can't Jump

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

88. What about it?

Good movie.

[uppityperson]

93. Trying to come up with some pop-culture racist anti-white stuff.

White men can jump. Reading through the thread and just trying to come up with some pop-culture stuff which is difficult because I haven't heard of (or heard) the people you all are talking about and haven't seen much pop culture. Is "White Men Can't Jump" racist?

[NormanYorkstein]

95. I don't know, is it?

Is saying "Black Men Can't Swim" racist?

[uppityperson]

96. How about

black men have rhythm? I see much of it as racism.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. I've never seen that movie.

:shrug:

[uppityperson]

105. silly. In reply to the one I replied to. Not a movie.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. White Men Can't Jump is not racist in any way.

It seems to me, when looking for black racists, these people are just randomly picking black entertainers from the top of their heads.

[uppityperson]

108. white men can jump though.

While racism is racism, sexism sexism, no matter who is saying what, I definitely see the problem being compounded by who has had the power, who has been the down trodden. However, racism is still racism, like sexism is still sexism no matter who says it. If it is a bigoted, prejudicial statement, it is.

I have not been around overt racism much, but been around a fair amount overt sexism. As a middle aged female, I don't want to be on top, insulting males, because I have been down so long. I want equality, to be treated without consideration of my sex. I get tired of anti-whomever snide nasty comments or jokes from everyone.

[Catherine Vincent]

126. I'm glad you brought that up.

When that movie came out I was offended by that title. I finally agreed to see it. It was okay but in the movie the white guy was the better player. :)

[Egalitariat]

157. DL Hughly has made his living exclusively from making fun of white guys

It's the only trick he's got.

The OP is right. It's a double standard. But it's a double standard that is perfectly acceptable to our society. Everybody knows the rules. Imus broke them. Now he pays. Chapelle gets to play by different rules. No big deal if you ask me.

[Morgana LaFey]

159. The rules

The rules are: whites own this society and run this culture. You can make fun of them if you're not white because you can't hurt them or their power.

I posted a quote in my post downthread, but here's another. This one is about Native Americans being mascots for sports teams, but the underlying princple that Tom Wise elucidates works for this subject as well:


Indian students at Northern Colorado University, fed up by the unwillingness of white school district administrators in Greeley to change the name and grotesque Indian caricature of the Eaton High School “Reds,” recently set out to flip the script on the common practice of mascot-oriented racism.

Thinking they would show white folks what it’s like to “be in their shoes” and experience the objectification of being a team icon, indigenous members of an intramural basketball team renamed themselves the “Fightin’ Whiteys,” and donned t-shirts with the team mascot: a 1950’s-style caricature of a suburban, middle class white guy, next to the phrase “every thang’s gonna be all white.”

Funny though the effort was, it has not only failed to make the point intended, but indeed has been met with laughter and even outright support by white folks. Rush Limbaugh actually advertised for the team’s t-shirts on his radio program, and whites from coast to coast have been requesting team gear, thinking it funny to be turned into a mascot, as opposed to demeaning.

Of course the difference is that it’s tough to negatively objectify a group whose power and position allows them to define the meaning of another group’s attempts at humor: in this case the attempt by Indians to teach them a lesson. It’s tough to school the headmaster, in other words.

Objectification works against the disempowered because they are disempowered. The process doesn’t work in reverse, or at least, making it work is a lot tougher than one might think.

snip

Without the power to define another group’s reality, Indian activists are simply incapable of turning the tables by way of well-placed humor.

snip

White perceptions are what end up counting in a white-dominated society. If whites say Indians are savages (be they of the “noble” or vicious type), then by God, they’ll be seen as savages. If Indians say whites are mayonnaise-eating Amway salespeople, who the hell is going to care? If anything, whites will simply turn it into a marketing opportunity. When you have the power, you can afford to be self-deprecating, after all.



Oh, and don't you think blacks and other oppressed minorities are keen on Chappelle's digs at the dominant culture?

[tomreedtoon]

160. Okay, old info, but I bet it's still going on.

There used to be a show called "Apollo Comedy Hour." It was a spinoff of the other Apollo show, but with a troupe of actors doing sketches a la "Saturday Night Live."

During one of the seasons, the lone white actor was a fortyish white guy who always played a donut-eating cop (named "Frank Cruller"). Every time he appeared was a slam against whites and cops in general. In one show a black God (female) summarily sent him to Hell. The actor took it pretty well...I guess...maybe he was full of unexpurgated white guilt, or like most actors, he was desperate for a job, and playing the target for a couple of bigoted blacks was the best he could do. All I know is, I'd have preferred to offer myself sexually in the dumpster behind the Apollo Theatre than to play that part.

There was also a show called "Def Comedy Jam," run by Russell Simmons. While I always thought it should have been called "Dum Comedy Jam," it ran for several seasons. It featured a lot of black comics who picked on the white vs. black humor, and a lot of it was pretty mean.

This is exactly the same as whites making stupid racist jokes against blacks. And besides the racism, it's lazy humor. It's a cheap laugh, on the level of dropping your pants to get a laugh. (Which is why I keep my pants up, by the way.) I note that "In Living Color" never resorted to that kind of humor with people like Jim Carrey, although "Homey the Clown" was a racist bastard who was never funny.

So yes, Virginia, there IS reverse racism in entertainment.

[Catherine Vincent]

2. I never watched Dave Chappelle.

Did anyone protest his show? Black or white?

[INDIA]

3. Definitely not. It's extremely popular, especially with young white males. n/t

[NormanYorkstein]

19. he has absolutely been protested

and criticized, I think the NAACP specifically criticized him once.

[INDIA]

24. Wow, I had no idea.

If it happened, it certainly didn't garner much media attention. Do you have a link for that? Thanks.

[NormanYorkstein]

92. no link

I remember hearing it. Maybe I'm wrong. Chappelle has certainly not been without controversy and many Black folks at least do not like him.

[sandrakae]

4. There is a double standard.

I emailed Al Sharpton and asked him where is outrage is at the crap that comes out of Tom Joyner and Company's mouth against white people, on blackamericaweb.com? I listened to this a lot during the 2004 campaign. The show at times was funny, however I stopped listening, because I was sick of the rude racist talk against white people. Funny that I never heard any outrage over that. What Imus said was appalling. He apologized. Be done with it. He has no right to demand he quit his job over this. Should every black person that ever made a racist comment lose their job? Funny thing about racism. Racism knows no color.

[JuniperLea]

13. No outrage here...

I am a white woman and I love Dave Chappelle. I was never offended by his white humor. I could have missed something, but the white people I saw him making fun of were stupid and racist.

I also like Carlos Mencia's show, Mind of Mencia... he doesn't give anyone a break! It's hilarious!

[NormanYorkstein]

71. What about in Quentin Tarintino in Pulp Fiction?

Lots of racial slurs, hell his whole scene in the movie is just him saying "the n word" a bunch of times.

[American liberal]

135. not true. Please see my response below.

Racism, by definition, can only be perpetrated by the dominant group. In the case of U.S., white people.

You need to find a different word for what you are criticizing. It's not racism. It's not discrimination.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. Ehhhh, Not Sure About That One. But I Don't Think He Should Be Fired Either.

I think his comments were deplorable and he should suffer some sort of real consequence for it, such as salary docking etc. But I think firing him (as much as I've never liked him to begin with) would be too harsh.

[unpossibles]

6. while I agree that in an ideal world no one would be a racist, power or not

I can see a world of difference between a comedian (or a rapper as someone else said) making fun of people, and someone who is a "respected" pundit.

please.

And to be fair, Chappelle makes fun of every "race" and has tried to do so to point out the absurdity of racism and stereotyping. Not the same at all.

[INDIA]

25. Yeah but Imus does comedy...

Or at least that's what he claims. He sucks, but his comment was still (as he claims) comedy, which is why I compare him with other comedians.

[JuniperLea]

7. Until we are all treating each other completely equally

There will never be equality. MLK fought for equality; I'd like to see his dream come true. But it won't until we are all measured equally.

I love Dave Chappelle's humor... I really, really love "The Black White Supremacist"... it points out how stupid we are to even consider race as an issue, IMHO.

Race should not be an issue. We need to stop putting our race on those little cards and surveys from our kids' schools, etc.

We should be blind to race.

[NormanYorkstein]

9. Chappelle...

First, Chappelle makes fun of all groups, Imus doesn't from what I've been able to tell. (maybe I'm wrong I've barely ever listened to the guy cause he's boring and not funny)

Of course Chappelle is considered extremely controversial and groups like NAACP hate him, so...plus he's off the air after refusing to do anymore skits making ethnic jokes about Blacks - written by the non-Blacks at Comedy Central (hmmm).

[Judi Lynn]

10. Context is everything. Perhaps you should take some time from your busy message board day

and revisit your American history books, and examine the accumulated history of destruction of the other groups by any racial group in this country.

There IS no "BBBBBBBut there is a double standard...."

We're ALL too intelligent for that.

[JuniperLea]

17. Context IS everything...

But I think you couldn't be more wrong.

The only way we will all be happy together is through equality. There will never be true equality until everyone is treated the same. Allowing one group to beat up on another because of what our ancestors did is stupid. It serves no purpose and it only fuels the fire.

I never owned slaves, nor did my family and we've been here since the Mayflower brought them here. There have never been slaves in my lifetime. Show me a slave who is still living and we can all pitch in to make that person's life wonderful beyond dreams. As it stands now, I have a black personal physician, black neighbors (more black than white, actually) and they are all doing as well as or better than I am. No one is holding them back, clearly.


Time to move on and get on with life.

[FredScuttle]

30. So you can say, honestly, that no member of your family ever benefitted from slavery?

If so, I say welcome to the United States.

[JuniperLea]

44. My family tree has been traced back to 1520 England

Our Mayflower decendents did no farming or ranching. There are a few Irish servants brought over after-the-fact, and two were former slaves working their freedom pay (bought as slaves and worked off the debt), but other than that, nope.

On the Irish side of the family, some were coal mine slaves.

[gravity]

53. Are you really that offended?

When watching a black comedian make jokes about white people.

[JuniperLea]

56. Where did you see me say that?

Don't make crap up and then sound me on it!

[gravity]

67. I didn't mean to accuse you of saying thing

I apologize

The point that I was trying to make is that most white people are not offended when a black person jokes about them, so it isn't nearly as racists as a white person making a racial slur.

[JuniperLea]

73. I agree, to a degree

When Chappelle or Mencia make fun of whites, it's usually for being stupid racists. When non-comedians of any color say racist things, it's bad. Just as bad for everyone. No less bad because your great-great-great-great grandfather was a slave. That doesn't give you the right to be bad.

The point I'm trying to make is that the only way we can all be equal is to BE equal. To treat each other equally. A black person (comedians don't count in this) should not be allowed to do anything a white person isn't allowed to do, and vice versa. That isn't equality. We need to uphold MLK's ideals in this area and demand that ALL people be treated equally.

[Judi Lynn]

64. You'll need to provide a case showing black people "beat up on" other groups.

That has not been a pattern in American history, nor is it a pattern now.

You are completely off the mark.

[JuniperLea]

78. That is what you are suggesting!

That black people be allowed to act and speak in racist terms!

All I'm saying is we are all equal and we all need to act that way.

[Madspirit]

70. Hilarious

**"Allowing one group to beat up on another because of what our ancestors did is stupid."**


hahahahaha...yeah...whew...there's been no racism since our ancestors...hahahaha...whew....

Read my post below on racism. We are the oppressor. Still. For a white to say something racist about a group they have oppressed for 100s of years is quite different than for THE VICTIM to say something about the oppressor.
Lee

[JuniperLea]

80. Bullshit

We are all equal and we should demand equality for all.

Giving someone carte blanche to be racist toward a group who has been racist to them is stupid. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Until we hold equality up above all this bullshit, there will still be problems.

[Madspirit]

84. What a crock....

Go read article in GD on "MYTH..Reverse Racism"...and actually think about it....and I bet you're white, right?...Lee


"When a group of people has little or no power over you institutionally, they don’t get to define the terms of your existence, they can’t limit your opportunities, and you needn’t worry much about the use of a slur to describe you and yours, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it’s going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan? Yeah, right.

So whereas “nigger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanize blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of honky: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with."

[JuniperLea]

109. I just did read it

And I call bullshit.

I am white. I live in a very equally racially diverse neighborhood. I have a black doctor.

You should read up on Martin Luther King and his views of equality. He was very wise. And too many have forgotten what he was all about. It's called equality. A balance. You can't have equality when one group is given the ok to do or say anything that the other groups cannot.

Tell me how giving one group a different set of rules can help anyone!

[American liberal]

139. yes, yes, yes!!! You go, Madspirit!

[American liberal]

138. That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about

See the 20 definitions of racism below. It's all about dominant group discriminating against the minority group and believing its inherent superiority over the minority group. Comments like Imus' fall squarely into that category. Race-based humor by black comedians does not.

[American liberal]

137. If "noone is holding them back"

why is the unemployment rate for black, urban males between the ages of 19 and 24 hovering around 72%?

[INDIA]

20. "We're ALL to intelligent for that"

???? Oh, you meant "We're all TOO intelligent for that." Sorry, the sentence didn't make sense the first time I read it.

And please don't tell me to read my history books. It's a pompous and demeaning comment, implying that you are more intelligent than me. I'm well aware of this country's history. I'm also aware that there are MANY ethnic groups in this country that have been screwed over at one point or another, not to the point of slavery maybe, but Japanese internment camps, Irish Catholics, Native Americans, and other groups have all had a rough time in this country at one point or another.

Back to my original question, which you artfully dodged. Is this double standard acceptable? Should African Americans be held to the same standards for racist comments that whites are? Or should the racist humor coming from one group be acceptable, while unacceptable from another?

[JuniperLea]

22. Well said! I was insulted by that comment!

I stand for equality, nothing more, nothing less.

[FredScuttle]

26. You really should crack a history book

It's not pompous or demeaning...you really need to check this nation's history before lumping blacks in with other ethnic groups in this country.

The double standard, my young friend, is in your mind. If you think Chappelle is racist, fine, that's your prerogative. Most people don't...they get what he's trying to say about race and what a delicate topic it is for all of us. Imus is just a cragged-out, straight up bigot and a sexist who gets off by sniggling with his jock-sniffing, thigh-rubbing crew on insulting blacks and women. He should have hung it up 20 years ago.

[JuniperLea]

59. Why bring history into it?

Part of my family were Irish slaves, and still others couldn't get a place to live or a job when they came here because right next to all the "for rent" and "help wanted" signs there were other signs that said, "Irish need not apply".

It is completely pompous and demeaning to suggest that a person doesn't know their own life experience or enough history to know there were once slaves in this country. We don't need to go back all that far in history to find that blacks have been mistreated. And we don't have to give any special considerations... racism is evil and disgusting no matter the color of the racist's skin.

[Judi Lynn]

75. You've redeemed yourself by pointing out I typed too quickly to get both "o's" down properly.

As the time signature notes, I corrected it as quickly as I saw it.

THIS is your idea of worthwhile conversation? Attacking a poster who didn't notice an "o" was missing before you read the post? That's cheap and slimey, isn't it? Attacking someone for a typographical error is odd.

"Double standard" is not an adequate claim to lodge here or anywhere else. Your attempt at race baiting is contemptible. Life is far too serious to make time to listen to anyone attempting to create more hostility when there is already far more than enough to go around.

[INDIA]

133. Normally I wouldn't call someone on spelling/grammar...

but you made your error in the midst of an arrogant, pompous post telling me to go read a book, and basically implying that unlike you, I'm ignorant of U.S. history. So yes, if you're telling me how smart you are, and in the process make a grade school error, you bet I'm going to call you on it. I wrote two lines about it in my post and you hit the roof, ignoring the rest of my post, lol.


And this isn't race baiting. If you read the replies, half the people believe there is a double standard of some sort, and they have an opinion about it, and discussed accordingly. The other half just decided to flame me and tell me how smart they are. Good for you.

[American liberal]

143. so what category do MadSpirit and I fall in, India?

Neither of us agree that it is double standard, nor are we flaming anyone. Please don't lump me incorrectly into your rough statistical analysis of responses to your thread. It almost seems as if you are more interested in whether people agree with your assertions of reverse racism (which I also agree is a myth) and double standards, than considering different points of view.

Too bad, because it is a good topic if people are willing to be open minded.

[American liberal]

142. India, I don't think you're getting the semantics of it...

"Back to my original question, which you artfully dodged. Is this double standard acceptable? Should African Americans be held to the same standards for racist comments that whites are? Or should the racist humor coming from one group be acceptable, while unacceptable from another? "

There is no double standard. Chappelle's comments cannot be considered "racist." They may be race-based. They may be insulting to whites (I have never seen his routine, so I don't care to characterize), but, by definition, his brand of comedy is not racist. It has nothing to do with holding blacks "to the same standards." Please read some of the definitions of racism I posted and tell me if you get it.

[trumad]

11. Maybe if we didn't enslave them for the first 100 years

I might think there was a double standard... People seem to forget that...

[JuniperLea]

21. Time to move on...

That's the kind of thinking that will keep us all from being truly equal.

[trumad]

31. Are you white?

[JuniperLea]

54. Yes

But if you are trying to infer that I don't have the perspective, you should come meet my neighbors... I'm the minority in my neighborhood. I'll show you Mrs. P (we'll call her) who has a wardrobe to die for and a Mercedes SUV, and she owns a townhouse that shares a wall with mine and they are identical... just for starters. Then you can meet my personal physician... he's uber cool, uber rich, and uber black. They are just as smart or smarter than me. They have just as many education and job opportunities as I do. We treat each other with respect and we don't blame or condescend to one another because of what happened a hundred years before we were born.

Oh, and we are all blues fans, so we even share music.

[trumad]

120. trying to infer--- shit--- I'm big time inferring....

Wow--you live in a black neighborhood so you feel their pain...LOL---too much.

[unpossibles]

35. true, but it also happened. And actually in our very recent past

black people were still not given the same rights as whites.

I don't think it's unreasonable that there are still many economic and social disparities, and that those can make a difference.

But yes, we do need to move past the antiquated idea of "race" - not be blind to it, but to realize that it's scientifically unsound. We're all humans. Sadly, many still don't believe that. When everyone does, then it might be appropriate to say there's no difference/move along/get over it.

[JuniperLea]

51. You can't put the egg before the chicken in this...

We have to start living it now, not wait for it to magically happen.

As I have said, all the black people I know have the same socio-economic stance as I do, some have better educations and better homes and better salaries and better savings accounts. My personal physician is black and far "better off" than I am.

IMHO, the only thing holding black people back right now is the IDEA that someone is holding them back. It's all bogus. Sure, there are racist jerks... in all races. And there will probably always be those. They can't hold anyone back who doesn't want to be. There are opportunities for all and you don't have to deal with the idiots.

[jeffrey_X]

57. tell that to kids who are still growing up in the ghetto

you know, the living conditions and environment directly related to the legacy of slavery, segregation and discrimination based on the color of your skin.

[JuniperLea]

62. That's bullshit

There are a lot of white and brown people in the ghetto too. And plenty of black and brown doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists. True, there should be more, but that's not the fault of all who are white! I grew up, went to school and now live in a very racially diverse neighborhood. We treat each other equally. THAT is what the world needs now! Not excuses for being poor! That is ridiculous! The longer you tell people they can't make it because they are a certain color, the longer people will just keep giving up. Life is hard for all of us right now. That legacy bullshit has worn out it's welcome. You can't keep telling people they have to work harder or longer or that they will never have as much because of the color of their skin, or you are making it happen!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

63. So why are black people more likely to be in the ghetto?

Is it because they don't work hard enough?

[JuniperLea]

77. Are they? Are there more?

I've seen a black ghetto, but I've also seen a white ghetto... and a brown ghetto as well. And I've seen black, white, and brown doctors, lawyers and bankers.

From my perspective, in "da hood", with blacks, whites and browns in equal number... you'd have a different view. If you knew my black doctor, you might think so too.

If you continue to tell a certain segment of the population that they can't have it all, they never will.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

89. You mean you don't know?

Or are you just pretending?

[JuniperLea]

107. No, I don't know

And if there are more blacks in poverty, how does that measure to the number of blacks as a whole?

I would imagine it could be a greater percentage. You can't expect much from people who are constantly being told they can't do something.

That's what my black doctor says. I trust him literally with my life, I don't see why I wouldn't trust his views on such things as well.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. Black people are far more likely to be poor...

and disadvantaged.

But you already knew that.

And you're blaming it on... people telling them they're disadvantaged?

:rofl:

[JuniperLea]

117. If you take a child of any color

And tell that child over and over again that he/she will never amount to anything, will never have a good job/car/house... chances are that kid will not even try.

My doctor, a black man, was told those things. He is one of the few that called bullshit and made a damn fine life for himself. His patients are black, white, brown... you name it. He has a picture of himself as a poor child... and a caption... "Don't listen to the lies! YOU ARE ALREADY SOMEONE!" He said once he started giving a damn about his grades and what college he was going to go to and what he wanted to do with his life, he was met with all the help he needed to succeed. Sure there were slurs. But they don't mean much when you are working your ass off to become a doctor and that is your focus.

It's all about the equality! You can't have equality until all people are treated the same. Giving the thumbs up to any group to condescend on any other group is morally wrong and utterly stupid.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. If you take a child of any color...

than the black child is far more likely than the white child to be poor and disadvantaged, less likely to succeed in school, less likely to get into college, less likely to get a good job, and more likely to be the victim of a crime and end up in jail, when compared to the white kid.

So, Pollyanna, why do you suppose that is? Poor positive outlook?

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. There's a difference between having a good self esteem...

and being utterly ignorant of racial disparity.

[JuniperLea]

127. If that's your backhanded attempt to insult me

Try again.

Any thinking person in the US today cannot be ignorant of racial disparity.

Saying it's ok for blacks to call whites names because "it doesn't hurt as bad" (lie) and they've had to put up with it for years is nonsense.

You reap what you sew.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

128. You've done it to yourself upthread.

"Any thinking person in the US today cannot be ignorant of racial disparity."

I agree. Too bad there are so many unthinking people.

"Saying it's ok for blacks to call whites names because "it doesn't hurt as bad" (lie) and they've had to put up with it for years is nonsense."

Comparing Dave Chappelle or Bernie Mac or any other black entertainer to Don Imus, and accuse them of "calling white people names" is so utterly ridiculous it insults the intelligence of those thinking persons in the U.S. who ain't ignorant of racial disparity.

[JuniperLea]

130. Apples and oranges

I never said anything about those comedians being the ones who uttered the nonsense.

[American liberal]

150. Whoa, Juniperx

I think you're missing the point that others are making much more eloquently than I can.

Your "black doctor" (who you insist on mentioning in just about every other breath) is the exception. Just like Oprah.

Most poor minority children live in a world that encompasses roughly 6 square blocks of hell. Violence, gangs, drugs, absent parents, lack of educational opportunities, and poor nutrition dictates how they perceive the world.

When they go to school and their books are 30 years old and torn up, and there's not adequate heat, and there are no art supplies, or school supplies in general, when there are 40 kids in a classroom where teachers spend most of their day trying to keep order as opposed to teaching the 3 Rs, how are these children supposed to feel that they are on "equal" footing with what they see on TV? Healthy, smiling, privileged white kids who struggle with issues like who they'll go to prom with or what kind of car they're going to get on their 16th birthday.

Yes, I am stereotyping both ends of the spectrum. There are many more black people working their way into the middle class (such as it is anymore) than in my parents' day. But the facts remain that there are a disproportionate number of young black people in prison, dealing drugs, etc. If we are to insist on equality (which I think is a noble ideal), then the playing field needs to continue to be leveled through affirmative action and better educational opportunities. As a biracial American woman who was born the year before the Civil Rights Act was passed and who has enjoyed many, many (and squandered a few) middle class opportunities, I see the pendulum swinging dangerously in the other direction.

Blaming poor people for being poor, IMHO, perpetuates the myths of equal opportunity. It still does not exist. And in my career path in publishing, I am experiencing it firsthand. And it sucks. Racism and discrimination are alive and well. Please don't obfuscate the issues by insisting that double standards and reverse discrimination exist and that we all have to be held to the same standard, 'cause it's just not real.

I admire that you are living in a diverse neighborhood. I do, too. There seem to be enclaves in this majority white, racist country I live in. And they seem to be getting smaller.

[fishwax]

125. acknowledging history doesn't keep us from being equal, ignoring or forgetting

or pretending it doesn't matter does.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

32. We didn't.

No-one now living in America was involved in slavery in any way.

Or do you believe that we're in some way responsible for the actions of our ancestors before we were born?

[FredScuttle]

49. But we've benefitted from it

all of us.

[brentspeak]

136. You must be pretty old, then

How were things back before electricity and locomotives?

[Rex]

12. Imus is worthless, not sure how he stays on the airwaves.

Chappelle is nothing like Imus. Apples to oranges. And I think all people are racist in someway or another. If not racist, then bigoted or ignorant about something. Me included.

I don't think it is possible for a human to be morally pure.

[Rose Siding]

16. Senators and candidates don't do Chappelle's show

When Imus got a cable show with daily nat'l exposure, his spouting of trash reached a different level. (Not that it's good when anyone is racially or sexually derrogatory - and I condemn it in all cases - but it's different)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. LOL

:rofl:

[Annces]

27. Sort of beside the point

But have you watched Mad TV lately. They are doing some great skits on race issues between people. Really funny and zingers.

[INDIA]

33. hey, you're preaching to the choir...

I'm not offended by much, although I thought Imus' comment was over the line, and a career ending offense.

I'm just observing that white actors/entertainers/comedians/pundits have to walk on egg shells when discussing race while African Americans don't. I personally could care less if African Americans make fun of whites in a racially motivated way, but I can recognize a double standard when I see one, and I wanted to see other people's thoughts on the issue.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Poor oppressed whites

Wah wah wah...

We all wanna be equal! Wah wah wah...

[INDIA]

48. Yeah, cause that's what I said. No I didn't.

I specifically said that I think making fun of whites, by black comedians, is funny. I never said "wah wah wah" or complained about it, I just thought it was a topic worth discussing. And obviously, a lot of other people thought so too.


Thank you for your worthless, inane addition to this thread.

[EST]

36. Racism and bigotry are ugly, nasty throwbacks, no matter who

serves it up.
I spent several years as an entertainer, doing both music and standup and I never, ever fell back on racism for cheap laughs. I didn't need to, being well enough paid and appreciated without resorting to such ugliness, as well as being sensitive enough to "put the shoe on the other foot."

Don Imus has spent a lifetime doing cheap humor and scoring points with bigots, especially right wing double ought gauge minds. His co-star, with his Clinton act and all the others is only capable of that kind of humor and both of them have outlived their value, if they ever had any.

I think the huge outcry arose, not just because of his off-color comment, but because it represented a "last straw" incident, at least it was that way to me. In a lot of peoples' minds, this is a chance to dump all over a really bad show and, along with a revolt against the excesses of the rabid right wing, demand that that sort of crap has to stop.

It is well past time to put an end to the nonsense and this represents a chance to do that in a big way.

Edit to add: We cannot expect to be able to demand that entertainers with more colorful skins dispense with their bigotry unless the less colorful have shown the way. White people showed them how and gave a reason why and it is little wonder there's a pent up pressure for payback, no matter how reprehensible.

[qanda]

37. To say that white people are unable to make fun of blacks is just not true

Just last week we had Karl Rove with white comedians pretending to do a rap like black people. People yucked it up-- it was hilarious! :eyes: I've seen many white sitcoms where black people and the black culture is laughed about and I don't take myself so seriously that I can't laugh about an overdramatization of my people and culture for humor's sake.

However, this country has a history of racism against black people and black people are probably a little too sensitive sometimes but I would say that we have a right to be.

[NormanYorkstein]

40. I thought they were making fun of Eminem?

:shrug:

[renie408]

42. Yeah, weren't they doing...whatever it was...to 'Slim Shady'?? n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

161. Unlike you, Eminem recognizes that he is practicing a black cultural form

He is quite explicit about THAT.

Not you. You think that Karl Rove hemming and hawin like MC Rove is anything BUT a minstrel show, on account of Eminem. Two points:

1) Eminem is much smarter than you are about his own art form
2) You are a racist

[renie408]

41. Eww...NO! That was not funny. That was creepy.

And there is a difference in how white comedians can 'safely' make fun of blacks. They have to be a lot more careful than a black comedian has to be.

I don't personally have a problem with that.

[NormanYorkstein]

58. I do - it should be equal

George Carlin has done some "controversial" skits about Black people specifically and ethnicity in general. It wasn't done with hate so no one really cared.

The real double standard is - kind of like with Michael Richards - if your joke is funny people won't take it as hate, but if it's not, they might.

[renie408]

69. Do you think that's probably because 'hate' isn't funny?

Maybe people can tell who is laughing with them and who is calling them nasty names??

[NormanYorkstein]

86. you are probably right

[gravity]

46. There is a difference between humor and hate

but when an angry white guy makes a joke about blacks, 99% of the time it's hate.

[INDIA]

55. That's a good point. n/t

[renie408]

39. Paybacks are hell??

No, african/americans are not held to the same standard as white people. Duh.

Could you get away with yelling "nigger" in a crowded mall? Not just 'no'...HELLL NO!!! You would get the shit beat out of you and I am not real sure you wouldn't deserve it. But could a black guy get away with it? Of course. Damn skippy there is a double standard and likely to be for awhile. I am not sure it is technically 'right', but that's just the way it works. I reckon the people who get to grow up with the advantages of being white in this country can stand to be the butt of some black comedians' jokes. I mean, it is going to take a helluva a lot of them cracking on us to make up for what they, as a race, have been through and continue to go through. I mean, just a couple of years ago the son of one of the Panthers players was driving through his expensive neighborhood in his daddy's expensive car and the police pulled him over and patted him down. Because he was black in an Escalade and driving through a predominately white neighborhood.

My kid doesn't have to worry about that. So it's OK with me if black comedians make fun of him.

[INDIA]

50. Thank you for a straight answer. I enjoyed reading your POV. n/t

[rasputin1952]

47. There are plenty of racists out there from all walks of life...

every segment of society has them, and most likely always will.

Each individual should be seen as an individual. There is no reason on this earth to think that an entire group of people are inferior, superior or racist. Every situation is different. I have met people from every group that have laid claim to being racist and acted so. But, they are really the minority, of the group. The vast majority of Americans are essentially good people that want to see every one in an equal light, but the ones who foul things up are the ones that get seen.

Color, religion, sex, sexual preference should have nothing to do with how a person is "judged", they should be "judged" on actions alone. Actions always speak louder than words, and it is the primary way for one to see where another truly stands.

[Madspirit]

66. Racism

It's kind of sad I've had to post this twice today....Lee


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9620



If you're looking to understand why discussions between blacks and whites about racism are often so difficult in this country, you need only know this: when the subject is race and racism, whites and blacks are often not talking about the same thing. To white folks, racism is seen mostly as individual and interpersonal--as with the uttering of a prejudicial remark or bigoted slur. For blacks, it is that too, but typically more: namely, it is the pattern and practice of policies and social institutions, which have the effect of perpetuating deeply embedded structural inequalities between people on the basis of race. To blacks, and most folks of color, racism is systemic. To whites, it is purely personal.

These differences in perception make sense, of course. After all, whites have not been the targets of systemic racism in this country, so it is much easier for us to view the matter in personal terms. If we have ever been targeted for our race, it has been only on that individual, albeit regrettable, level.

But for people of color, racism has long been experienced as an institutional phenomenon. It is the experience of systematized discrimination in housing, employment, schools or the justice system. It is the knowledge that one's entire group is under suspicion, at risk of being treated negatively because of stereotypes held by persons with the power to act on the basis of those beliefs (and the incentive to do so, as a way to retain their own disproportionate share of that power and authority).

<snip>

Until white folks get as upset about racism actually limiting the life choices and chances of people of color, as we do about black folks hurting our feelings, it's unlikely things will get much better. In the end, it's hard to take seriously those who fume against this so-called reverse racism, so petty is the complaint, and so thin the ivory skin of those who issue it.

[JetCityLiberal]

83. Outstanding Post, bookmarked

This whole thread is discouraging to me, 'reverse racism' who invented that, rove?, limbaugh? robertson? reagan? Seriously, that just seems like an oxymoron to me, reverse racism.

This white guy understands and appreciates your post, 'so thin the ivory skin of those who issue it' indeed.

You eloquently stated alot of what I was feeling about this thread but am too angry to post politely right now.

Hope everyone gets to read your post and great link.

[Madspirit]

111. Thanks...go check

The thread in the GD...MYTH...Reverse Racism.
Lee

[NormanYorkstein]

102. the distinction between racism and bigotry

When Whites say "racism" they mean bigotry. Actually I think when most Blacks say "racism" they mean bigotry too - that's just the common use of the term. "Racism" is supposed to be about institutions and society but that's an academic not casual meaning.

[Solly Mack]

110. I'd recommend your post if I could

[izzybeans]

144. Sums up this thread quite nicely even.

Tis why gallows humor will always outwit a snarky hangman like Imus. Comedy that pokes fun at structural inequity is not the moral equivalent of the laughter of the Karl Lindners of the world.

[American liberal]

152. Madspirit, you are my new favorite person on DU! Way to go!

You summed it up better than I have ever heard. NOW I understand better why most of the white people I try to have this dialogue with don't GET it! For them, it's personal; for us, it's systemic. Beautifully put.

[INDIA]

74. BTW, does everybody see the irony of the banner above this thread?

The Michael Richards ad? lol.

[uppityperson]

82. Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism. Bigotry is bigotry.

Edited to add that I do not mean to imply that everyone everywhere is treated equally bad by others since that is absolutely untrue. There is a world of difference between being called an offensive name and not being able to rent an apartment or get a job because of 1 characteristic you have. Someday I wish us all to be not homogenized into similarity, but to be able to let our differences be but also be of no matter. "Of course each is different, so what?" sort of thing.

[Orsino]

85. When African-Americans wield equivalent power...

...they can and will be held to the same standards--for the same reasons we have antitrust laws.

I don't see why this is a difficult point to understand.

[nam78_two]

129. I don't either.nt

[jedr]

90. Great discussion;

Stern , of course, piled on Imus today , but it was a great discussion. Racism is a bit like pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it." How can Stern make fun of midgets and women and general freaks and it's funny, but Imus's comment makes you enraged? To me , it was the side reference to Jig-a Boos ( sorry to say it out loud). Terms like this are so racist and demeaning that they enrage you. Then Imus piled on with the rest of the comments and it was over the top. Now back to Stern, knowing that Imus regularly call Robin the N word sends me over the top. Also, I can call myself a dumb Pollock or hardheaded German or an Irish drunk, but you can't. Is that a double standard? I don't think, you have a right to make fun of yourself, if you so choose.

[Rose Siding]

101. Stern is a shock jock. Imus has entered the DC press circle.

Imus hosts presidential candidates and members of Congress. Seems different to me.

[jedr]

116. I didn't state that the way I wanted to;

Stern can make fun of people and it doesn't come off as demeaning, it seems to be all good fun. Imus's statements enraged me. I can't explain what the difference is.

[American liberal]

164. This is anything but a discussion

This thread is a bunch of disparate individuals blathering endlessly from their respective perspectives while holding their hands over their ears. I would LOVE to have a discussion about this topic. I will not continue talking at you; I'd much rather talk with you.

Good night.

[devilgrrl]

100. May I have instances where Blacks have disparaged whites over the airwaves?

Because I can't think of any off hand.

[INDIA]

140. VH1's "White Rapper Show"

A group of aspiring white rappers visited a hip-hop station in New York. The female (black) DJ told them they should leave rapping "to us." She then went on to bash the hell out of all of them and kick them out of the studio. I have a feeling Jackie Robinson heard the same types of comments about baseball, "just leave it to us whites."

Other than that, I don't listen to terrestrial radio, so I can't do better than that.

[devilgrrl]

147. Too bad she wasn't called on it...

if it went down the way you describe, it's certainly grounds for an explanation, especially since there are white hip-hop acts already out there. :shrug:

Even so, while the DJ may have been rude - it still doesn't come close to what Imus pulled. "Nappy-headed...." :wtf:

[FredScuttle]

148. Vanilla Ice = Jackie Robinson

Such heroic crusaders against bigotry and oppression




Congratulations....that was the stupidest post I've read yet in this whole Imus nonsense.

[INDIA]

172. lol. I wasn't comparing the struggle...

I was comparing the comment "just leave baseball/hip-hop to us whites/blacks." It's a racist comment, no matter who utters it. And obviously, Jackie Robinson went through a lot more than Rob Van Winkle.

Although sadly, Hip-Hop/Rap is FAR more important than baseball to young African Americans today.

[baldguy]

106. Should white have to deal with the same hardships & general shit that blacks have to put up with?

If you need a cab and 12 pass you on ten minutes, are they all off duty? Or is it because of your skin color? If you're shopping in a dept store and every ten steps a clerk asks if you need help, then follows you around after you say "no", are they just being conscientious? Or are they making sure you don't steal anything? And why is it that when you drive through a particular town - not speeding, obeying all traffic laws, wearing your seat belt, using your signals, coming to full stops at stop signs - you still get pulled over by the police EVERY time?

The double standard exists and it favors whites.

[Bjorn Against]

113. Blacks have ALWAYS been held to a HIGHER standard than whites...

Did you know a black person with no criminal record has a more difficult time finding employment than a white person with a criminal record?

Did you know blacks are more likely than whites to be pulled over for a traffic violation?

Did you know blacks are more likely to get prison sentences than whites for similar offenses?

Don't suggest whites are held to a higher standard because that is completely false.

Sure they may be able to make fun of white people on television, big deal. After all the abuse they have taken over this countries history they deserve the right to poke fun at those who abused them. Satire is a tool those who lack power use against the powerful, when the situation is reversed and the powerful are mocking those who don't have power it is no longer funny.

[Karenina]

118. Would a white kid who wrote on a desk

be arrested and given a criminal record? Would 5 & 6 year-old white kids be handcuffed and/or tasered?

[Karenina]

121. Gotta get dem darkies back under control!

:puke::puke::puke::puke::puke::puke:

[American liberal]

132. This is a good topic, and it seems to come up periodically on many of the boards

I post to.

Racism, by definition, can only be perpetrated by the dominant group through its discrimanatory practices. Therefore, in current U.S. society, what the other poster said is correct: blacks cannot be considered racist because they do not control the means of production and are still in the minority demographically.

Also, because blacks continue to be an oppressed minority in this country, I do not consider it to be a double standard when black comedians make fun of white people. I may not like it very much or agree with it, but, technically speaking, it is not racist. It is not a double standard.


Here's a bunch of definitions. Maybe they will help.
**********************

Definitions of Racism on the Web:

or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.
www.kids.net.au/encyclopedia-wiki/ra/Racism

(Audre Lorde): The inherent belief in the superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance.
www.uihome.uidaho.edu/default.aspx

The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another and the practices of the dominant group to maintain the inferior position of the dominated group. Often defined as a combination of power, prejudice and discrimination.
www.bl.uk/services/learning/curriculum/voices/refglos.html

The doctrine that race is the basic determinant of human abilities and that, therefore, the various racial groups constitute a hierarchy in which one group is properly regarded as superior to others. Racism has also been defined using the following formula: Power+Prejudice=Racism. Racism has also been defined as a "system of advantage based on race."
www.unk.edu/offices/aaeo/index.php

defined broadly as stigmatization of those we perceive as different from us; defined specifically as the doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior. There can be an ethnocentric group of people without being a racist group of people because racism seems to need to have some systematized body of scientific knowledge. ...
www.geocities.com/paris/chateau/6110/europeconceptsterms.htm

Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. In the name of protecting their race from "contamination," some racists justify the domination and destruction of races they consider to be either superior or inferior. ...
www.adl.org/children_holocaust/more_resources.asp

An attitude, action or institutional structure, which subordinates a person or group because of their color. Racism involves having the power to carry out systematic discriminatory practices.
www.gecdf.com/diversity/glossary.html

Judging an individual based solely on his or her racial affiliation.
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072863129/student_view0/chapter14/key_terms.html

personal (attitudes/beliefs/behaviors), institutional (policies, laws, regulations) and social/cultural (beliefs, customs) that subordinates others based on physical characteristics involves use of power plus privilege
www.accta.net/2003whitedef.html

Usually experienced as white supremacy, oppression/discrimination, action or inaction which subordinates based on race.
www.letswrap.com/LetsWRAP/Spring97/isms.htm

An assumption that there is an inherent purity and superiority of certain races and inferiority of others. It denotes any attitude, behavior, or institutional structure that subordinates, persons or groups because of their race or ethnic background. Such practices can be intentional or unintentional.
web.bryant.edu/~fsp/modules/2/diversitygloss.htm

Prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race. It can be expressed individually or through institutional policies or practices.
www.culturalpartnerships.org/productspubs/glossary.asp

The stigmatising of difference along the lines of ‘racial’ characteristics in order to justify advantage or abuse of power, whether economic, political, cultural or psychological.
freespace.virgin.net/brendan.richards/glossary/glossary.htm

is a phenomenon in which people mistreat, discriminate against, dislike or even hate, have disdain for, or regard as inferior other people based on their real or perceived race. The term is almost always used pejoratively, with accusations of racism being very common but with few describing themselves as racist. The term racialism is sometimes favored as a less negative term by those who hold certain beliefs about other races which they believe to be scientifically justified.
www.encyclopedia4u.com/r/racism.html

is power plus racial prejudice, a system that leads to the oppression of or discrimination against, specific racial or ethnic groups.
colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html

This managed to express itself in both pre- and post-Darwinian understandings. In the pre-Darwinian scheme of things, based on the idea of the Great Chain of Being the question was this: do the various races occupy different levels on the chain, some higher, some lower, or are they all basically human? ...
alpha.fdu.edu/~jbecker/nature/natureglossary.html

practices and attitudes that display dislike or antagonism towards people seen as belonging to particular ethnic groups. Social significance is attached to culturally constructed ideas of difference.
media.pearsoncmg.com/intl/ema/uk/0131217666/student/0131217666_glo.html

Racism may be viewed as any attitude, action, or institutional structure which subordinates a person or group because of his or her color. It is an ideology that considers a group’s unchangeable physical characteristics to be linked in a direct, causal way to psychological or intellectual characteristics. This distinguishes between superior and inferior racial groups.
www.roundtoplewis.com/define.html

the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Racism has many different definitions. Historically, it has been defined as the belief that race is the primary determinant of human capacities, that a certain race is inherently superior or inferior to others, and/or that individuals should be treated differently according to their racial designation. Sometimes racism means beliefs, practices, and institutions that discriminate against people based on their perceived or ascribed race. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

[INDIA]

134. Thanks. According to some "holier than thou" posters I'm "race baiting."

I thought it was a subject worth discussing. After 130+ replies I guess I was right. Although some apparently are so uncomfortable with the subject that they would rather just pull their blinders on and yell "RACIST!!!"

I'll be sure to check up on your links!

[Bicoastal]

145. I think I'm going to trip you up...

What happens a Black person goes on record saying he hates Asians? Or an Asian person says she hates Mexicans? Or a Mexican says he hates Arabs? And lets not even bring Jews and Anti-Semitism into the equation...

Minorities can surely be racist in regards to other minorities. In fact, as someone who lived in LA during the '91 riots, I observed it first-hand.

[American liberal]

155. Nope. You haven't tripped me up one bit.

I stand by my assertions. I suggest you read what Madspirit posted about how differently blacks and whites in U.S. view "racism." It really opened my eyes. To you, it's personal. To me, it's systemic.

By definition, racism connotes superiority of one group over another by the dominant group (the one in power). None of your examples fits the definition. You need to find another word. It's not racism.

[Bicoastal]

156. What is it then?

Offhand, I can't think of any other word to fit this definition. And there must be a term for it, because it does exist.

[American liberal]

165. you tell me... but it's not racism.

[Bicoastal]

167. Wouldn't you agree....

that a racist statement is a racist statement, no matter who uses it?

If an Asian American was anonymously called a "squinty-eyed chink" on a message board, he'd consider it racist, even if the poster turned out to be African American. And isn't a person who frequently uses racist slang and terms a racist?

If Michael Richards turned out to be half-Latino, would he suddenly not be guilty of racism anymore?

[American liberal]

168. no I don't agree

Please read the definitions of racism below. Please read Madspirit's post about how black people define (and experience) racism differently from white people. Your examples have no merit.

[Bicoastal]

173. Can Asian people be racist?

Can Latino people be racist?

You haven't specified yet. Perhaps your point is that the ONLY people who can be racist are White people. If so, at least I understand the argument a bit better.

[Nikia]

141. Comedy and power

There is a comic tradition of making fun of those with power or those who hold advantages in society. Right or wrong, this is perceived as funny.
Making fun of those without power is just kicking people when they are down.

[smoogatz]

146. It's really very simple.

Yes there's a double standard. And that's a GOOD thing. You have to be pretty evolved to get it, but I'll try to explain. I'ts about consequences. What are the consequences when a member of the elite ruling class and dominant ethnic majority goes on the radio or TV and makes ugly, racist comments about members of a historically oppressed minority? Who's hurt by it? Who's empowered? Is it likely to encourage others to commit racist acts? Is it likely to encourage physical violence against blacks or other minorities? Does it feed and empower the white supremacists and neo-nazis and the rest of the hate-filled assholes in this country, white underclass or working class or well-to-do, that are just waiting for someone to give them permission to vent their racist spleens? Hmmmm? Now, when Dave Chappelle does a "white-face" routine--what's he really doing? Obviously, he's lampooning a racist form of entertainment (blackface) invented by whites to make fun of blacks. He's turning the tables in a pretty interesting way. Is he harming the dominant ethnic majority in any way by poking fun at them? Is he sending a coded message of ruling-class approval to black racists, telling them it's okay to go out and verbally or physicall assault white people? Would anyone even construe it that way, white or black? Are the two instances--Imus calling a group of black women athletes "nappy headed hos" and Chappelle doing his thing--in any way analogous? Would Chappelle ever publicly refer to white women athletes as "stringy-haired cunts," say? I just don't hear black entertainers talking about whites with anything like the venom displayed by the racist, misogynist Imus, and his cohorts Limbaugh, Savage, Hannity, Coulter, et al. Even if they did, I'd be inclined to think they might have a legitimate beef--given the racist history of the US, from its origins up to the present moment. Whites railing against blacks? Not so much. Get it now?

[Solo_in_MD]

149. Yes, but the double standard is too deeply ingrained and those who criticize it are called racists

[The Backlash Cometh]

151. Oh, I can't wait until we start judging people on their character.

Make them prisons bigger, 'cuz we have us a whole bunch of white people who should be in prison if things were really fair.

[B Calm]

153. Why do so many black people put down gays?

[Bluzmann57]

154. Not sure if I should answer this

Because if I do, I may get hammered. But I will anyway. Racism is unacceptable whether it's whites, blacks, asians, little green guys from Mars, whomever. It cannot be accepted. But sometimes here in DU, if a person makes a comment about a certain African-American being a piece of crap, he gets ripped. So yes, African-Americans should be held to the same standard as whites.

[Morgana LaFey]

158. Oh, please

How tiresome. If this is thread #38 on the Imus situation, how many of those threads contain some variation of "but whites have it hard too"? And no, that's not what you said, but it's close enough.

Molly Ivins had a good response for the likes of you and your pathetic argument:

There are two kinds of humor. One kind that makes us chuckle about our foibles and our shared humanity -- like what Garrison Keillor does.
The other kind holds people up to public contempt and ridicule -- that's what I do. Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar. -- Molly Ivins


Now, the one thing I worry about is that you are going to be -- or claim to be -- genetically incapable of seeing where whites, esp. white males, are the "powerful" ones both in your scenario, and in Molly's analysis. To which I say, if true: buy a clue.

[Madspirit]

163. Yay...Morgana and Molly!!

...and it bears repeating. From Molly Ivins:


There are two kinds of humor. One kind that makes us chuckle about our foibles and our shared humanity -- like what Garrison Keillor does.
The other kind holds people up to public contempt and ridicule -- that's what I do. Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar. -- Molly Ivins


Lee

[Truthiness Inspector]

162. Shitty racist comments are shitty racist comments

No matter who makes them.

No one should get a pass.

[fujiyama]

166. There are several different factors to look at when discussing Imus

and the possibility of double standards.

He has a history of racism.

His tone is often hate filled and nasty. Yes, those are vague terms, and I purposely put them in quotes. But tone and context make a big difference.

When Imus calls female African Americans "ho's" (and keep in mind this is the umpteenth time he's referred to them that way), it makes you wonder what he is thinking. It's not funny to simply be an ass hole.

But in general, yes, there are some double standards in place, simply because of the power differential between the two different groups. Many have explained that and I won't go further. The African American history is unique and some leeway is given to make fun of the powerful. It's like when Dennis Miller does his act - he's not funny, simply because he is unable to take on the dominant and powerful. Any comedian loses his edge when he is unable to point out those flaws.

Also keep in mind when Chapelle "makes fun of whites", he is making fun of the DOMINANT CULTURE. I don't recall actually see him making fun of whites per se. Does he stereotype white women as ugly and animal like as Imus frequently does toward blacks? Does he demean their intelligence?

No, instead he points out awkwardness in more superficial qualities - like their sense of style.

[Lil Missy]

169. It's not the same. Whites have not endured oppression and slavery for 100's of years.

And I am not at all offended by jokes about white people.

[femmedem]

170. It isn't a double standard because the two situations aren't the same.

Laughing at oppressed people just isn't the same as laughing at oppressors.

I know lots of white people will say, "But I never oppressed anyone." And that could well be true. Nonetheless, it's far from a level playing field, even today.

One more thought: Is there a difference between Bush denigrating Iraqis and Iraqis denigrating Americans? The answer to your question lies here.

[BlooInBloo]

171. Mmm.... nothing like the smell of the reverse racism lie in the morning.