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My take on all of these intelligence investigations and cover stories leads US back to 9/11.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:50 PM
Original message
My take on all of these intelligence investigations and cover stories leads US back to 9/11.
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 02:50 PM by bobthedrummer
Discuss within the rules of GD so this doesn't go to the dungeon. In the context of what possible reason there is to explain Cheney et al still being involved in the management of secret intelligence programs (including assassination) after President Obama took office.

Discuss in the context of building a case against war criminals.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. The BUSH/CHENEY installed administration insisted that "intelligence failure" allowed the attacks
With all of the warnings and operations against the alledged key perpetrators, why does it seem like all of that intelligence was ignored???
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. failure meets complicity
it's a blurry line and cheney knows it
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I know that when the BUSH/CHENEY administration was placed into office there was an immediate
purging of all federal agencies based on political ideology-and that included the military, law enforcement and intelligence.

The broad alliance of the far RW assumed control and the secrecy took over-one of the prime examples prior to 9/11 being Cheney's National Energy Policy Development Group "meetings".

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. and we may never know who attended those meetings doing 'the peoples' business
the justice department firings are another prime example
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Like you, I'll NGU trying to hold these criminals and traitors accountable regardless of all else...
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. i'm with you. NGU.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Middle eastern men, several already on terrorist watch lists, coming into the US and enrolling
at flight schools-drawing attention to themselves from many that made their concerns known.

That was just from the public sector.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. All of this is bigger than 9/11
Cheney and his cronies are running a parallel Gov't, where laws don't apply(not that they do anyway, but this is on an entirely different scale) and every time they get called to task for it, something happens to "Forgive them."

It's now happened more than 3 major times. Nixon, Iran/Contra, Bush Admin plus any others anyone would like to add.

This is huge, seemingly unstoppable and still happening.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Oh, I've often posted that I view the BUSH/CHENEY installation as a coup
and called it a form of fascism. It does seem like a meta-conspiracy when viewed certain ways.

It is having worldwide effects that conform closely to what the PNACer's and their allies visualized.

But since there were so many warnings from so many sources about an imminent action against our nation and that these warnings not acted on I drew my own conclusions long ago-and still hold to some of them that involve treason.
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. This is all you need to know about Cheney and his Cronies:
In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I'm 59 and well-seasoned politically Hydra, I know my BFEE
but why were ALL the pre-9/11 warnings not acted on when our nation historically has used the safeguards developed for real national security to avoid, as one example, nuclear war???
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Why would the Bush Admin care about the deaths of a few thousand people?
All of their people knew what was coming and were laying low. I bet no one important to the Bush Admin died that morning.

In a word, it was USEFUL to put the fear of God in people, "Creating a new reality," as it were, which is why I referenced the quote.

These people care only about their own safety and money. Everyone else is "expendable" in their pursuit of a "New World."
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. I believe they intentionally did not act on information they received
from the Clinton Administration.

I also believe that they had the Air Force Jets tied up in a military exercise on purpose on 9/11. The Jets didn't have ammo on board (If I remember correctly so they couldn't have shot down the planes). Cheney was in a bunker somewhere.....

Too many coincidences not to be planned...
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. That particular quote has to be without question
the most pernicious, vile, odious, contemptible and malevolent in the history of mankind. They'll need to create another circle in Hell just for the author of the quote alone, never mind the lizards that intended to carry that project forward.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. AMEN. nt
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Excellent post ..more people need to know about that priceless fu message to us all.
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 06:53 PM by wroberts189


They thought they could tell us what reality was... and as we sat back trying to figure it all out they would remake it always staying one jump ahead..


The arrogance of that quote was astounding and scary.


And it did not work out like they planned... another interesting quote in light of Obama winning and his favored author.:


http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/27074.html

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. How did they not win, though?
The only thing Bushco didn't get was Iran...and they're still walking free here in the US. I'd feel much better had Congress and the DOJ sent out the Patrick Fitzgeralds of the world, forcing them to retreat to Paraguay for at least 20 years.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Well for what its worth we have majorities in the house, 60 in the senate... and a..
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 07:03 PM by wroberts189

Black Dem. president.


I do not think they were expecting that.

Very good points you make though...
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I like those points
But this whole "Forgive and forget" about torture, treason, etc. makes me REALLY nervous. The fact that torture and detention without charge are considered "Liberal Issues" sends a chill up my spine.

I try to hope, but the monsters still walk among us.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. I would like to believe Obama is keeping it as leverage...



"You pubs try to block my health care or mess with me? Maybe its time for a special war crimes prosecutor... a couple of them. I'll give Holder a call. He owes me one."


again.. That's what I would like to think. But you are right ... justice should prevail beyond politics.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
46. I never forgot that quotation
It was frightening
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. This thread need a kick. nt
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
57. That quote always reminds me of the old joke
The neurotic builds castles in the sky, the psychotic moves in, the psychiatrist charges rent.

That quote looks evil because it defines psychosis, and group psychosis at that -- they not only base their philosophy on psychosis, they worship it.
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troubledamerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. The Long Coup D'etat
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
53. It's the same guys, over and over again. They just come back and kill and steal more each time.
The looting of Wall Street followed the looting of the Treasury amidst the Iraq War which followed 9/11; the looting of the S&L industry by the BCCI-Bush-Bin Laden gang was also brought to you by the same guys who organized Iran-Contra and the October Surprise, which followed the Nixon-Ford era crime wave carried out by the same rogue CIA-defense contractor mob (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al.) which thrived during Watergate and Vietnam . . . well, you get the idea.

None of these guys running the mass murder for profit scams ever get arrested, even though their crimes are carried out in broad daylight. They're untouchable because nobody ever touches them. Simple as that.

America is just a cash cow to these people, and war is their way to create business opportunities.

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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. I wonder about that "secret backup government" they set up for "emergencies" .


What ever happened to that? Anyone?
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. As far as I know it's still there
If I recall correctly, it was older than the Bush Admin.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It is still there, but Cheney re-stacked it, eliminating Congress.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. We, the people...
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. It is not a "secret backup government"
In government it is called Continuity of Government. In business it is called Continuity Management. Same thing.

It grew out of IT Disaster Recovery exercises. Back in the 80's we (IT people) always had concerns about how we would recover should anything happen to the mainframe. Flood, fire, all the disk-packs fail, the reason did not matter, a plan had to be in place so that the company could continue to do business. The concept, at it's most basic, is that back-ups are done and the copies sent off site to a secure location, contracts are made with other companies to "rent" mainframe space/time/cpu for exercises as well as in the event of a disaster. Some companies I've worked with, like Nationwide Insurance have very good plans and runs exercises quarterly. Other places, like the State of Ohio, have shit plans and will be seriously fucked should anything happen. Still other places, like Grange Insurance are still working on it on paper and do not have anything in place, they cannot recover should something happen.

Out of this grew the concept... What if something were to happen to where people work? What if people cannot get to the building... or the building is gone? Earthquake, terrorist attack, chemical spill, again the reason did not matter but having a plan to be able to continue working did matter. Thus was born Continuity Management. There is tons out there on paper but many companies and governments agencies like to keep the bulk of what they have secret for a good reason. It is both incomplete and untested. I've worked on this shit since the late 80's and never even heard of a single company that has even attempted a CM exercise that went beyond a table exercise.

I've tried more then once to explain what this is but the tinfoil is on way to tight and it is either not believed or ignored. This is the fact of what the "secret backup government" is all about.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That is quite distinct from CHENEY'S SHADOW GOVERNMENT as a growing number of citizens realize
and COG has it's roots in both WWII and the Cold War. I'm old enough to remember when my Boy Scout Troop was literally taken underground to help move barrels of water and boxes of survival equipment to other locations in the late 1950's early 60's.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I was not addressing that
I was addressing wroberts189 concern regarding COG. Also, bunkers for boy scouts, survival in general is not what COG is about or at least it is about a whole lot more then that. It is about being able to maintain business (or government) when the usual place of business is not accessible. It requires much more... MUCH MORE then a place to go and individual survival has nothing to do with it. Even a mediocre plan must address key people not being around to do their jobs. HA! You should have seen the faces the first time I walked into a meeting with the departments managers at Nationwide and announced they were all dead and by the way, do your plans include someone to take your place? No, meeting over, go revise your plans and we will try again next week, bwahahahahaha, it was priceless.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. Hello, perhaps there's a generational misunderstanding here. As part of civic duty circa late 50's
the maintenance of survival supplies in underground locations set aside for leadership of the City of Milwaukee during the Cold War was performed by many, including Boy Scouts.

These underground locations were below administration buildings and were not new at all even then. I understand sustainability in the strategic sense.

The sites were specifically dedicated not just as public fallout shelters (at that time Milwaukee was a leading manufacturing center of everything including fallout shelters) but for leadership.

Perhaps these pages from the Wisconsin Historical Society will convey what I meant-I'm 59, I don't know your age so it may be a generational thing. You could drive small vehicles through miles of interconnected tunnels and we even had two batteries of NIKE/HERCULES missiles in Milwaukee as well as our third Socialist Mayor!

"Living Under A Mushroom Cloud: Fear And Hope In The Atomic Age"
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/atomic/takecovr.asp

"Atomic Age Evacuation Route Sign"
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/artifacts/archives/003654.asp

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. I'm 46
Everything I see there talks only about survival. COG since the late 80's has been about a lot more and not really in relation to nuclear attack. There are a whole host of things that can happen that can cause a break down in government or in a business, cyber attack, earthquake, floods, the list goes on and on. I can see where the fallout shelters could be considered the grand father of todays COG but really, today it is a whole new animal that tries to be comprehensive and not just about survival.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Thanks for the clarification, and for what it's worth President Truman's Executive Order 10346
(April 17, 1952) addressed old school Constitutional Continuity Planning-which we both agree is entirely distinct from whatever Cheney's shadow government is because to them our Constitution (aka we, the people) is merely "a goddamn piece of paper".

Executive Order 10346
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78459

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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Interesting, I had never seen that before
I can tell you that almost all government agencies, with the exception of the military, are not prepared for most COG scenarios still today.

And before anyone gets all tinfoily about the military being the best prepared, please at least think about it. This concept has been around in the military since long before the US even existed. Their job involves facts they must be prepared for if they want any chance of success. They must be prepared to deal with lines of communication being lost, key people being lost, supply lines being cut off, radical changes in hierarchy and so on. Exactly the concepts of Continuity Management. Regardless of ones thought on the military, it makes sense that they would be the most prepared for this.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I wish I had the same trust in our institutions that you do.


I would not have to buy so much tin foil (actually I have upgraded to lead with advanced magnetic shielding.)
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Trust has nothing to do with it
I worked on Ohio's DR plan in conjunction with the federal government. I also pushed very hard for them to begin a COG plan, the feds are furthest along but still not really even close to being able to communicate with much more then the military (of course, that came first and had been in place for a long time), anything else is a crap shoot for them though.

Don't take my word though, there is plenty of information on DR & COG out there, there are in fact monthly magazines devoted to it. It is a pretty good sized industry.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. are all of these (9/11, wiretap, Patriot Act...) a means to an end or the end themselves?
I think that they are not a means to an end but the ultimate goal themselves. To control by fear and coercion was the sought goal and it was sucessful. We are fighting a war for oil pipelines, we executed the one who wanted to get away from the US Petro Dollar (Hussein), we have placed the people under surveillance, we have given corporations access to this control grid, bankers control the Treasury.............

Now I do not know Obama's place in this big game of theirs, but it was only after Clinton left office did we see the effects of his turn at the wheel (NAFTA, CAFTA......)

Destroy America? turn us all into enslaved debtors? rape and destroy the resources from another one of The King's Colonies all in the name of the Dutch East India Company??? I dunno, but the more I look forward, the more I look backwards and think that the USA might be nothing more than another land that was conquered by Corporations for it's resources.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. "To control..." To control behavior?
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. You have to understand their mind set.
They like dictators, they like suppression of people through fear.

It is not USA vs some other country. It is people that believe in authoritarian rule all over the world, verses people in the world.

If you see their context from Bush's comments like 'it would be easier to be a dictator', and if you think that they think of many regular people as demons, you can see how they can allow things like that to happen.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. His casual SOTU "...money trumps peace, sometimes..." is still on fire inside me
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
38. And he said it as if he was speaking of others only.


When the whole Iraq war was about oil profits as we all knew then and now.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
21. If all this is known, to so many, what is the Obama administration doing about it?
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. I see no evidence of Cheney doing anything with the CIA after his departure.
The CIA doesn't even like Cheney. And you're just pulling stuff out of your ass.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Yes, the stuff referred to as being "deep in the bowels" of the intelligence community. A POS post
now go clean-up after u self Dick lover...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. Insider Bill White really keys into the criminality of the Bush family...
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/6/162696/-Open-Letter-to-Patrick-Fitzgerald-Supporting-Conspiracy

..

Well, when Bath and I first had our conversation of his request that I cooperate in a cover-up, he said you've got a choice. He said you can either do this voluntarily or the Bank that's laundering the Saudi money and I are going to inundate you in frivolous lawsuits and we're going to make your life a goddamn living hell. Those were his exact words and he said now I know you being Mom and Apple Pie think that America's about truth and justice but that's nothing but a bunch of horse petui. He said if we sue you, number one you're not going to have money to pay the lawyers to defend yourself against these lawsuits and number two in the unlikely event that you could ever get legal representation, all it would take is a call from George Bush to these Republican Judges who are beholding to him his political appointees and he said you'll never get a chance to tell this story to a Jury. You'll never even get a day in Court.
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noise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
32. The secrecy is a key aspect
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 06:37 PM by noise
Ted Gup wrote an important book called Nation of Secrets: The Threat to Democracy and the American Way of Life. After 9/11 the push for secrecy was off the charts. The secrecy enabled the Bush administration to conceal all sorts of criminal activity by falsely claiming the secrecy was required for national security reasons. The secrecy was a large factor in keeping the public ignorant as propaganda and fearmongering replaced reliable information.

One would think that a COG plan that evidently didn't involve Congress and wasn't reviewable by Rep. DeFazio (who was on the committee charged with oversight) would have led to some push back from members of Congress. Instead we had the bizarre explanation from Pelosi in which she blamed secrecy restrictions for the lack of oversight in relation to highly classified programs. Why didn't Pelosi propose legislation to fix this issue in 2006? Why did she take impeachment off the table? The concept of separate but equal branches of government doesn't work if Congress isn't willing to stand up the executive branch. Standing up to the executive branch wasn't a choice, it was an obligation. Part of the job description.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
35. Another lingering question... why did it take 6 months for the CIA to inform the boss about..


...a secret program he immediately shut down and then almost literally ran to congress to tell them about it?


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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. They claimed they shut it down
They also claim it was never implemented. I suspect that's not exactly true on either count.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. It will be interesting when the facts are known. I expect they will be soon. nt
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Sy Hersh did some investigation on the program, if you're interested
The article is old, but it appears it was spot on. Too bad he can't tell us now if the program isn't still in place, ala 'Blackbriar' from Bourne Supremacy.
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. He is saving his best for his book... due out soon I believe. nt
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:10 PM
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42. Yes...it does seem to be leading us back connecting the bread crumbs
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 07:11 PM by KoKo
and retracing Hansel and Gretel...through the dark forest...as to how they got to the witches house...where they started from...how they got there.

I wonder if it will be in our lifetimes, though. Tracking those crumbs when there are so many eaten by the crows that there are still missing patches of direction along the way.

Is that obscure enough?

We must have hope...for others who follow to pick up the trail if we can't do it in this time frame. We must find the missing breadcrumbs even if we steal them from the crow's den.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
54. K&R
:kick:
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
55. I, for one, would appreciate it very much if *someone* would ask Bush...
...why he sat there and did nothing when he learned from his chief of staff that we were under attack! To date no one has and I'd like to hear his answer--without Cheney being there to hold his hand.

I believe his answer(s) would shed light on the events of that tragic day and we could learn more about Cheney's role then and now.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
56. There's much more to the broader agenda than what many care to consider
I just posted this in the recent "Family" thread, but this is worth mentioning here also as it speaks to deeper and disturbing religious/quasi-religious planning of right-wing, and the ideological belief systems that are likewise guiding this cabal.

The Jesus Landing Pad
Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move
Rick Perlstein
Tuesday, May 11th 2004
It was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists, where they passed off bogus social science on gay marriage as if it were holy writ and issued fiery warnings that "the Presidents Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level"—this to a group whose representative in Israel believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter. Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2004-05-11/news/the-jesus-landing-pad/
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
58. I read that the CIA ops are planned out decades before they're
implemented. Modified. Like a game of Chess. Also thanks to Project Paperclip we have had Nazi spies and scientists (which undoubtedly you know, this is for the newer DU'ers) running amok a newly named OSS-CIA. Who knows when the first plan of Sept 11 was born. My psyche must be fragile because I can't take much more. (undoubtedly there's MUCH MORE).
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 07:02 PM
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59. I think a lot of this goes back to a 1977 CIA report on the possibility of Peak Oil in the USSR.
Of course, our government has been aware of Peak Oil since the 50's when M. King Hubbert was speaking out about it while the rest of the oil industry tried to portray his stance as Chicken Little. But once the United States peaked in 1970, our government had an economic imperative to pay attention to the ramifications. This CIA study, declassified almost 6 years ago, along with Richard Heinberg's brilliant analysis, illustrates how:


August 15, 2003, 1200 PDT, (FTW) -- A recently declassified CIA document casts new light on some of the most significant geopolitical events of the past quarter century. This document, an Intelligence Memorandum titled "The Impending Soviet Oil Crisis (ER 77-10147)," was issued in March 1977 by the Office of Economic Research and classified "Secret" until its public release in January 2001 in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request. (1) Until now, the document has prompted little discussion.

The Memorandum predicts an impending peak in Soviet oil production "not later than the early 1980s" (the actual peak occurred in 1987 at 12.6 million barrels per day, following a preliminary peak in 1983 of 12.5 Mb/d). "During the next decade," the unnamed authors of the document conclude, "the USSR may well find itself not only unable to supply oil to Eastern Europe and the West on the present scale, but also having to compete for OPEC oil for its own use." The Memorandum predicts that the oil peak will have important economic impacts: "When oil production stops growing, and perhaps even before, profound repercussions will be felt on the domestic economy of the USSR and on its international economic relations."

The significance of the document requires some unpacking. First, we must understand the historical context in which it appeared.

Oil production in the US had peaked in 1970, just a few years earlier. This was arguably the most important economic event of the past half-century: until then America was the world's foremost oil producer; for much of the twentieth century it was also the world's foremost oil exporter. American oil won both World Wars for the Allies and made the US the world's richest and most powerful nation. Meanwhile, throughout most of this same period the USSR remained the world's second foremost oil-producing nation.

The American oil peak signaled the end of an era: from that point on, the US would become increasingly dependent on imports—and this dependence would entail serious costs, as became apparent with the Arab OPEC oil embargo of 1973, which sent the US economy into a tailspin. (2) Clearly, CIA analysts in 1977 understood the importance of the American oil peak and believed that a peak of petroleum production in the USSR would have similar or even graver consequences for that nation.

This much is clear and undisputable. Less clear is what was done with the information. Soon after assuming office in 1981, the Reagan Administration abandoned the established policy of pursuing détente with the Soviet Union and instead instituted a massive arms buildup; it also fomented proxy wars in areas of Soviet influence, while denying the Soviets desperately needed oil equipment and technology. Then, in the mid-1980s, Washington persuaded Saudi Arabia to flood the world market with cheap oil. Throughout the last decade of its existence, the USSR pumped and sold its oil at the maximum possible rate in order to earn foreign exchange income with which to keep up in the arms race and prosecute its war in Afghanistan. Yet with markets awash with cheap Saudi oil, the Soviets were earning less even as they pumped more. Two years after their oil production peaked, the economy of the USSR crumbled and its government collapsed.

Did the Reagan administration base its Cold War strategy on the CIA study, in the expectation that a Soviet Union economically weakened by oil depletion would collapse if pushed hard on other fronts?

That question is mostly of historical interest. But the Agency's focus on the phenomenon of oil peaks has important implications for the present. For the past decade, oil experts have been debating when global oil production will peak. Pessimists say the global peak may already have occurred in 2000; optimists say it won't come until 2025 or so. A growing consensus of petroleum geologists places this pivotal event in the mid-range period of 2006 to 2015. (3) From a certain perspective, the amount of time in dispute is not of great significance: whether we have a year or two or a decade or two before the supply of oil can no longer meet demand is relatively trivial from a historical, analytical point of view (though of considerable significance for billions of individual humans needing to make plans for the years ahead); the result in either case will be the same—a slow motion global economic and industrial collapse.

The 1977 CIA document shows clear and detailed awareness of oil issues, including depletion, extraction technologies, pipelines, areas of likely new discovery, the quality of existing reserves, and the dynamics of the global oil market. The CIA has obviously been studying oil very carefully for some time and must therefore understand the issue of global oil peak.

This begs the questions: Does the Agency have a strategy for dealing with this impending mega-event? Or is the Agency's job merely to provide information, and allow the current Administration to formulate policy?

Here we must speculate. The developing semi-public row between the neoconservatives of the present Administration and CIA insiders suggests that the Bush team's plan for invading Iraq and subsequently redrawing the map of the Middle East may not exactly coincide with Agency recommendations. We know that the Bush-Cheney team is independently aware of the issue of peak oil because international oil investment banker Matthew Simmons, who has written extensively and forcefully on depletion issues, was an advisor to Vice President Cheney's now-infamous Energy Task Force in 2001. (emphasis added)(4)

If policy makers and their intelligence analysts understand the phenomenon of peak oil, and perhaps even used it strategically during the 1980s to undermine the Soviet Union, and are aware of the upcoming global peak, they must be interested to direct geopolitical events accordingly. What thoughts may be occurring to them in this regard?

The Middle East boasts 70% of global proven reserves of oil. Saudi Arabia has the world's largest reserves (25% of the total), and most of the 9/11 hijackers are alleged to have come from that country. Osama bin Laden is a Saudi native, and his published statements center on the project of ejecting American influence from the nation of Medina and Mecca.

If, as the neoconservatives have repeatedly hinted, Iraq is only the first stage in a larger project of regional regime change, then the real prize must lie just to the south in the giant fields east of Riyadh. One cannot help but wonder if the long-coddled Saudi government is even now being set up for a fall.

As events unfold, it will be of more than passing interest to see whether the CIA and the Bush Administration reconcile their differences, or whether the neoconservatives' hubris and ideological monomania will be their undoing.

Meanwhile, the real motives and long-term strategies of policy makers and intelligence gatherers alike will likely remain opaque to citizens who pay in blood and dollars for their government's military adventures. "The Impending Soviet Oil Crisis" gives us a rare, limited glimpse into the machinery of covert information analysis and decision-making that shape history as we live it.


Notes

1. To access the document, go to the web site http://www.foia.cia.gov. In the document search field type <er 77-10147>.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/081503_cia_russ_oil.html


In addition to my added boldprint highlighting Cheney's knowledge via Matthew Simmons' advisory capacity on Cheney's Energy Task Force in 2001, Cheney himself indicated his knowledge regarding these issues in public comments on the record from 1999 in a speech to the London Institute of Petroleum. I think Kjell Aleklett's analysis sheds some light on Cheney's motivation:


In the April 2004 issue of the magazine the Middle East I found a statement that Vice- President Dick Cheney had made in a speech at the London Institute of Petroleum Autumn lunch in 1999 when he was Chairman of Halliburton. A key passage from his speech was: “That means by 2010 we will need on the order of an additional fifty million barrels a day.”

It suggested that he was fully aware of the issue of peak oil. A full text of the talk had been available on the website of the Institute of Petroleum, but has now been removed (wwww.petroleum.co.uk/speeches.htm). Nevertheless, further research did bring to light a printed version, dated 24.08.00, as follows:

Dick Cheney: “From the standpoint of the oil industry obviously - and I'll talk a little later on about gas - for over a hundred years we as an industry have had to deal with the pesky problem that once you find oil and pump it out of the ground you've got to turn around and find more or go out of business. Producing oil is obviously a self-depleting activity. Every year you've got to find and develop reserves equal to your output just to stand still, just to stay even. This is as true for companies as well in the broader economic sense it is for the world. A new merged company like Exxon-Mobil will have to secure over a billion and a half barrels of new oil equivalent reserves every year just to replace existing production. It's like making one hundred per cent interest; discovering another major field of some five hundred million barrels equivalent every four months or finding two Hibernias a year. For the world as a whole, oil companies are expected to keep finding and developing enough oil to offset our seventy one million plus barrel a day of oil depletion, but also to meet new demand. By some estimates there will be an average of two per cent annual growth in global oil demand over the years ahead along with conservatively a three per cent natural decline in production from existing reserves. That means by 2010 we will need on the order of an additional fifty million barrels a day. So where is the oil going to come from? Governments and the national oil companies are obviously in control of about ninety per cent of the assets. Oil remains fundamentally a government business. While many regions of the world offer greet oil opportunities, the Middle East with two thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies, even though companies are anxious for greeter access there, progress continues to be slow. ( Bold by the auther)”

To understand the magnitude of the problem that Dick Cheney is addressing we can compare “fifty million barrels a day” with the total production coming from the six countries bordering the Persian Gulf (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, United Arab Emirates,
Kuwait and Qatar), that in 2001 produced 22,4 million barrels per day (Energy Information Administration).


snip

There is no doubt where Dick Cheney thinks the oil is to be found: “While many regions of the world offer greet oil opportunities, the Middle East with two thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies”.

At that time Cheney did not put a number to the expectation from the region. He was later appointed as Chairman of the National Energy Policy Development Group, and a first number was given. The report was handed to President Bush in May 2001 and includes the following statement from Dick Cheney: “As you directed us at the outset of your Administration, we have developed a national energy policy designed to help bring together business, government, local communities and citizens to promote dependable, affordable and environmentally sound energy for the future.”


snip

OIL AND WAR

Dick Cheney in London 1999: “Oil is unique in that it is so strategic in nature. We are not talking about soapflakes or leisurewear here. Energy is truly fundamental to the world's economy. The Gulf War was a reflection of that reality.”

How about the war in Iraq?

More Statements by Dick Cheney in the IP speech


The speech by Dick Cheney is also very interesting from other aspects. First we can read his own opinion about himself: “I'm often asked why I left politics and went to Halliburton and I explain that I reached the point where I was mean-spirited, short-tempered and intolerant of those who disagreed with me and they said' Hell, you'd make a great CEO'.”

Many are shocked by the fact that Shell has been manipulating its reserve figures, but Cheney saw the pressures Shell was under – “to turn around and find more or go out of
business- you understand how important oil reserves are. From the talk: “From the standpoint of the oil industry - and I'll talk a little later about gas -, but obviously for over a hundred years we as an industry have had to deal with the pesky problem that once you find oil and pump it out of the ground you've got to turn around and find more or go out of business. Producing oil is obviously a self-depleting activity. Every year you've got to find and develop reserves equal to your output just to stand still, just to stay even.”

One year before the presidential elections in US Dick Cheney thinks that the oil industry should have more power in Washington. Today we know the outcome: “Oil is the only large industry whose leverage has not been all that effective in the political arena. Textiles, electronics, agriculture all seem oftentimes to be more influential. Our constituency is not only oilmen from Louisiana and Texas, but software writers in Massachusetts and especially steel producers in Pennsylvania. I am struck that this industry is so strong technically and financially yet not as politically successful or influential as are often smaller industries. We need to earn credibility to have our views heard.”

BP has had a hard time to replace production with new discoveries and instead bought Russian reserves. Cheney also discussed that approach: “Companies that are finding it difficult to create new core areas through exploration are turning to production deals where they can develop reserves that are already known, but where the country doesn't have the capital or the technology to exploit them. In production deals there is less exploration risk but dealing with above ground political risk and commercial and environmental risk are increasing challenges. These include civil strife, transportation routes, labour issues, fiscal terms, sometimes even US-imposed economic sanctions.”

At the end of this paragraph he complains about the fact that there are “US-imposed economical sanctions”. Should we be surprised that the sanctions in Libya have been lifted?

The full text of Dick Cheney's speech at the Institute of Petroleum Autumn lunch, 1999, is a very important document and I hope that the Institute of Petroleum once again makes it available for anyone to read. Meanwhile a copy is available on request, Aleklett@tsl.uu.se.



http://www.peakoil.net/Publications/Cheney_PeakOil_FCD.pdf



When it comes to malfeasance in geopolitics, I follow the dictum from Deep Throat: "Follow the money". Once you understand the ramifications of Peak Oil, along with stratospheric power and wealth accessible from controlling the remaining concentration in the Middle East, you gain a clearer understanding of why Cheney would go to any means necessary to gain that access and control (i.e. wealth and power), including murder, which is what I believe is the greatest crime that Cheney is ultimately guilty of. And yes, I do believe that extends into 9/11 territory, but I would rather not discuss the particulars of that for fear of seeing this great thread sent to the dungeon. :)
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