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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:01 PM
Original message
The Republican Attack on Empathy
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 07:06 PM by Time for change
The Republican Party and assorted right wingers have used the occasion of President Obama’s nomination of Sonia Sotomayor, in conjunction with a previous Obama statement emphasizing the importance of empathy in U.S. Supreme Court justices, as an occasion to attack not only Sotomayor, but empathy itself. In doing so, they have made it crystal clear what kind of people they are.

This is nothing new. Right wingers have long hated and actively fought against any intrusions of empathy into the workings of our government. They fought against FDR’s New Deal. They fought against the Civil Rights Act of 1964. They fought against the Voting Rights Act of 1965. They fought against Medicare and Medicaid. And today they fight against universal health care for all Americans.

It is very revealing that they should now be mounting a frontal attack on empathy itself. Empathy is one of the major character traits that make us human – and moral. Empathy is the quality whereby we imagine ourselves in another’s shoes – what it is like to be that person (or animal) and experience what that person is experiencing. And it’s more than just imagining it, it’s actually feeling it – which is where the expression “I feel your pain” comes from. Indeed, empathy is the source of morality. Just try to imagine what possible value morality could have without a foundation in empathy.

Yet it is the Republican Party that calls itself the Party of moral values. How can that be? How can a Party that has nothing but contempt for empathy claim to be the Party of moral values? The answer to that question lies in the particular type of moral values proclaimed by right wingers. They are a peculiar type of moral values that are devoid of empathy. They are moral values in the abstract – moral values that don’t require us to imagine ourselves in other peoples’ shoes. They are moral values, rather, that can simply be asserted on the basis of being written down somewhere or proclaimed by some self-assumed authority figure.


The controversy over President Obama’s stance on empathy

The Obama stance on empathy in judicial appointees that is currently being attacked by Republicans comes primarily from a speech that he gave as a presidential candidate, in which he commented on the traits he would like to see in a U.S. Supreme Court justice:

And we need somebody who's got the heart to recognize -- the empathy to recognize what it's like to be a young, teenaged mom; the empathy to understand what it's like to be poor or African-American or gay or disabled or old. And that's the criteria by which I'm going to be selecting my judges.

The Republican attack against this has been aggressive and ignorant in the extreme. Here are some examples:

Orin Hatch on empathy
“What does that (empathy) mean? Usually that’s a code word for an activist judge,” Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) said on ABC’s “This Week.” He said a judge needs to “be fair to the rich, the poor, the weak, the strong, the sick (and) the disabled.”

Lindsey Graham on empathy
Well, you know, I don't want a judge to take his robe and become a politician, an empathetic politician wearing a robe. I want a judge to decide cases fairly.

Diggers Realm website on empathy
This goes against the principles of the Constitution wherein empathy has no place. Judgments are to be made based off of the law of the land and not on empathy or emotion for either party concerned. It is the only fair way that people have equality under the law in this country.

Jeff Sessions on empathy
Call it empathy, call it prejudice…. But whatever it is, it’s not law…

So there you go. The right wing/Republican view of the act of placing oneself in another person’s shoes is that such an act is antithetical to fairness and our Constitution. And they even equate it with prejudice. This is the typical Orwellian Republican up is down and down is up blather. It is their typical “Clear Skies” through the deregulation of anti-pollution laws, peace through war, and great health care for all by pricing people out of the market kind of philosophy.


The need for empathy in the Judiciary Branch of our government

In attempting to find the requirement for empathy for interpreting the U.S. Constitution, one need look no further than the first sentence, contained in the preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Thus it is that three out of the six reasons that our Founding Fathers provided for the creation and existence of our Constitution are reasons that require empathy for their understanding. How can one understand what is meant by general welfare if one lacks empathy? In the absence of empathy, one could interpret certain economic indicators, such as gross domestic product (GDP) as absolute indications of economic health, even while unemployment continues to mount. Without empathy, one could be satisfied with a “trickle down” theory of economics, whereby our nation’s first priority is to enrich the wealthy, while depending upon the wealth of the wealthy to trickle down to everyone else. There would be no need to test that theory. Merely the belief or assertion that it works would be enough to be satisfied with it. In short, people without empathy have no means of understanding the meaning of “general welfare”. Instead, they are content to rely on a host of untested ideologies and arbitrary indicators to tell them when the needs of our country’s people are being met.


A right wing understanding of “liberty”

The same thing can be said about “liberty”. Without empathy it is not possible to ascertain the meaning of the word, since it is a word that applies to subjectively felt human needs. Without empathy, one could believe that a starving and homeless person with no means to improve his lot would be “free”, as long as there were no laws that specifically required that he be starving and homeless. A person without empathy would merely assert that starving or homeless people must rely on the so-called “free-market” to give them a chance at having a decent life.

George Lakoff, Professor of cognitive science and linguistics, discusses the conservative idea of freedom and liberty in his book, “Whose Freedom – The Battle over America’s Most Important Ideal”.

The focus of (George Bush’s) presidency is defending and spreading freedom. Yet, progressives see in Bush’s policies not freedom but outrages against freedom. They are indeed outrages against the traditional American ideal of freedom… It is not the American ideal of freedom to invade countries that don’t threaten us, to torture people and defend the practice, to jail people indefinitely without due process, and to spy on our own citizens without warrant…

It applies to just about every issue. Take the 2005 bankruptcy bill, which had the effect of keeping poor people (though not wealthy corporations) from declaring bankruptcy in the face of overwhelming debt – in most cases debt from emergency medical care. This will keep tens of thousands of families enslaved to debt, often at the cost of their homes! It was sponsored and passed by conservatives. It was an anti-freedom bill…

Freedom and liberty are progressive ideas that are precious to Americans. When the right wing uses them, it sounds as if aliens had inhabited, and were trying to take possession of, the soul of America. It is time for an exorcism.

In other words, far from facilitating the use of reason, as those right wingers who disparage empathy claim, the absence of empathy leads to the kind of tortured logic described above.


Specific examples of the need for empathy required for interpretation of the U.S. Constitution

It’s not just the reason for our Constitution, as specified in its preamble, which points out that its interpretation requires empathy. Our Constitution is filled with such examples. In Article I the Constitution specifies providing for the “general welfare” as one of the responsibilities of Congress. Here are a few other examples:

The 4th Amendment notes that “the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated.” How can one who lacks empathy understand what it means for another person to “be secure”. Without empathy, one could only understand what it means for himself to be secure.

The 5th Amendment specifies that a person may not “be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.” I’ve described above how people who lack empathy misinterpret the word “liberty”. Similarly, the interpretation of “just compensation”, “justice”, or “fairness” requires empathy. Without empathy, one can understand only what it means to be fair to one’s self. The concept of fairness to other people is not interpretable to one who lacks empathy, because such a person is not capable of imagining what that concept means from another person’s point of view, or from the point of view of other people in general.

The 6th amendment says that “The accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial….” But what is meant by a “speedy” trial? Such a phrase has no meaning outside of the context of the needs of real human beings. There is no specific time frame by which our Constitution defines “speedy trial”. A judge requires empathy in order to put that phrase in the context of human needs.

Our 8th amendment says that “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.” How does one define “excessive” bail? A person without empathy would most likely think that “excessive” refers to a specific monetary amount that has nothing to do with the means available to the imprisoned person. The maximum amount of bail allowed would be identical for billionaires and paupers. And what is “cruel” punishment? The difficulty that a person who lacks empathy would have in interpreting the meaning of “cruel” punishment explains why so many right wingers are so accepting of the torture practiced by our government over the past few years.

Our 14th amendment says “… nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…” Again we have the words “liberty” and “due process” – phrases that cannot be interpreted in the absence of empathy.

An example: Brown v. Board of Education
One of the most important, respected and progressive U.S. Supreme Court decisions ever rendered was Brown v. Board of Education. The importance of this decision is explained here:

By declaring that the discriminatory nature of racial segregation ... "violates the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which guarantees all citizens equal protection of the laws," Brown v. Board of Education laid the foundation for shaping future national and international policies regarding human rights. Brown v. Board of Education was not simply about children and education. The laws and policies struck down by this court decision were products of the human tendencies to prejudge, discriminate against, and stereotype other people by their ethnic, religious, physical, or cultural characteristics. Ending this behavior as a legal practice caused far reaching social and ideological implications, which continue to be felt throughout our country. The Brown decision inspired and galvanized human rights struggles across the country and around the world.

To this day, right wingers claim that this decision was an example of “judicial activism”, in that it created new law. But it did not create new law. It interpreted the 14th Amendment to our Constitution, recognizing that “due process” cannot exist when prejudice and discrimination guide government action. This decision required the recognition that prejudice and discrimination were written into our public educational system – thus making that system unconstitutional according to our 14th Amendment. The recognition of this problem would not have been possible without empathy.


Right wing morality

Right wingers who disparage empathy and are enraged with the idea that our government should consider it a good thing clearly don’t understand what it is, nor its necessary relationship to our Constitution or good government in general. It is probable that their inability to understand what empathy means is due largely to the fact that they have little or no personal experience of it.

George Lakoff discusses what this means in terms of the so-called “culture of life”, which so many right wingers boast about, consider the cornerstone of their morality, and try to impose upon their fellow citizens:

So-called pro-life conservatives are typically in favor of the death penalty… They favor conservative policies that result in America having the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world… These deaths are a result of conservative policies against prenatal and postnatal care, universal child health insurance…, Medicaid…

If they were really pro-life… they would support programs for pre- and postnatal care, health care for all children, programs to feed and house the hungry and homeless, antipollution programs, and safe food programs. Instead, they let strict father morality dominate over issues of life – that the poor are responsible for their own poverty and that they and their innocent children should suffer for it, and that government should not interfere with corporate profits through public health regulations for clean air and water.

Indeed. Right wingers should stop their pathetic whining about empathy in government.
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ashling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great post
mind if I copy this to use in govt. and con. law classes?

:hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
26. Thank you -- That would be great if you did that
:hi:
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47of74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. It'll be interesting to see who is standing where
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 07:07 PM by 47of74
It'll be interesting to see just who is standing where when this part of Matthew 25 comes to pass;

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46)


If the right wingers think they'll be standing on the right as identified above, they might be in for a rather unpleasant surprise on that day.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Great Post
-:)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. One has to wonder how the Christian Right can get away with
never quoting that.

Progressive Christians talk about it, but never the Christian Right.
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47of74 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. It's been excised from their version of the bible
I think it's been excised from their version of the bible. The only parts of the bible they seem interested in is the old testament and those parts of the new testament that makes it look like Jesus shared their hatred of anyone who does not think, feel, look, or believe as they do.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
56. While this is truth,
millions that claim to live by the word do not. They are of the faux Christian variety.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow. Now THAT'S a DU post!
Excellent!

:kick:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Pubs blew it re empathy.....
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. 6
well done
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. Their propaganda arm, the corporate media, has been instrumental in the attack on empathy since 1980
It was pretty stark to those of us paying attention at the time. K & R, awesome as usual.

To be an excellent writer in these interesting times has to be a blessing. :toast:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
43. Thank you glitch -- It's interesting how they can tiptoe around the idea of
promoting "Christian values" while at the same time disparaging empathy.

I wonder if they take courses in that? :toast:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I think they offer a full degree program at Regent University.
Any major will do :hi:
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. Reagan Years
Interesting,Glitch, that you submit the early '80's as the seminal moment for the anti-empathy conception.

Tellingly, that was when Saint Ronniue Raygun began dismantling unions.

Any wonder it's been an anti American -worker country ever since?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Ain't no wonder at all PainPerdu. And Welcome to DU! nt
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Thank you
I appreciate your welcome,Glitch.

I've admired your contributions here for some time now.
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juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. You say ti so well. K&R n/t
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. they are a psychotic narcissistic cult plain an simple..
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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Great post. Don't republicans see the obvious hypocrisy--calling themselves Christians
while mocking empathy.

To argue that Jesus Christ didn't display empathy is insane.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
67. Thank you -- I really don't know whether they see it or not.
They lie not only to others, but to themselves as well.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. rec 19. the difference between us and them is empathy. nm
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. great post. they think a flawed process that results in death is just peachy.
they think that as long as someone had a fair trial and has been sentenced to death, it's actually immoral to overturn that verdict even when there's prood positive that they're innocent, proof that didn't exist at the time of the trial. they think it's immoral because they think that the process is more important than actual principles that the process was created to address.

only a complete lack of empathy could permit such thinking.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. Fantastic post, I appreciate all of your hard work.
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
14. Repubs know that if the great debate is framed in terms of empathy, they're screwn.
So they have to attack and obfuscate the meaning of that word for their drones, in case a Democrat at work says something like, "Republicans and Republican principles lack so much empathy--and isn't that the core of Christ's teachings?"

They don't stand a chance in that debate, and they're scrambling to get on top of that argument before Democrats notice, and exploit it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
70. That's right
Once empathy is given any credibility, all right wing philosophies go right out the window. That's why they have to lie about everything and preempt any argument that might shine some light on what they're all about.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
:kick:
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. empathy is the heart of the New Testament. it's what made Jesus special.
their morality is morality for "others." not for them -- they're above morality by their own definition.
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Dystopian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. KandR.
Outstanding piece..as always.
Heartfelt thanks for your great efforts and contributions to DU.

peace~
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
71. Thank you
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. I feel sorry for the attack on empathy. They should put themselves in empathy's shoes.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
53. They can't due to not having empathy.
:cry: :)
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. does empathy among democrats extend to immigrants?
I think I've been watching the death of empathy in our party as well.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
58. There's been death of empathy in our entire society.
I think America has become a very harsh place to live. Maybe my youth insulated me, but I don't remember things being so mean spirited when I was a kid. I grew up in a small community & I remember a few skiffs between people & groups. I remember people getting heated & pissed off at each other. I don't recall the mean spirited attitude that I sense today.

Everything seems to be more competitive now. Sportsmanship doesn't appear to exist anymore. We encourage a 'Win at any cost' & 'I've got mine, fuck you!' mentality. Cooperation & community values are looked on with disdain. It's all about the individual & getting ahead.

To the OP, TfC, once again, an excellent commentary!

Kick, rec & bookmarked.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
72. It should
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
20. Empathy is really what life is all about. It is the enemy of the malignant rich.
So they try to destroy it in the USA using their money and power. They have not won. They will not win.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. Empathy conflicts with sociopathic exploitation.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
22. TLDR (nt)
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BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. This makes me think of Carol Gilligan and her theories
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 01:15 AM by BlancheSplanchnik
about the Ethics of Care, moral development hierarchies and the differences between masculine and feminine psychologies.

In the excerpt I snipped here, it talks about relationships and moral decisions made based upon partiality regarding persons with whom we are in relationship, but I'm thinking this spreads out to us all. It applies to the Justice system as we are all human and therefore in relationship.

about Ethics of Care, from Wikipedia (emphasis mine):

Comparing ethics of care with traditional ethical positions

Ethics of care contrasts with more well-known ethical views, such as utilitarianism and deontology or Kantian ethics. This sort of outlook is what feminist critics call a 'justice view' of morality. A morality of care rests on the understanding of relationships as a response to another in their terms. It focuses on the moral value of being partial toward those concrete persons with whom we have special and valuable relationships, and on the moral importance of responding to such persons as particular individuals with characteristics that demand a response to them that we do not extend to others.

Ethics of care and feminist ethics

While some feminists have criticized care-based ethics for reinforcing traditional stereotypes of a “good woman” <1> others have embraced parts of this paradigm under the theoretical concept of care-focused feminism. <2>

Care-focused feminism is a branch of feminist thought, informed primarily by ethics of care as developed by Carol Gilligan and Nel Noddings. <3> This body of theory is critical of how caring is socially engendered to women and consequently devalued. “Care-focused feminists regard women’s capacity for care as a human strength” <4> which can and should be taught to and expected of men as well as women. Noddings proposes that ethical caring has the potential to be a more concrete evaluative model of moral dilemma, than an ethic of justice. <5> Noddings’ care-focused feminism requires practical application of relational ethics, predicated on an ethic of care.


I noticed she has a new book out that looks VERY interesting--should be very illuminating on the "old system" that the Reich Wing loves so much: The Deepening Darkness: Patriarchy, Resistance, & Democracy's Future, Cambridge University Press, (2009) (with co-author David A.J. Richards)

D'OH, I had to edit here to add, Thank You once again, TfC, for you excellent work. You really are one of a kind!
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
64. Reminds me of '70's Stanford Research blueprint for America
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 04:17 PM by PainPerdu
The planned collapse of America
Dec 7, 2007 ... Their final report was released as the Changing Images of Man. ... Changing Images of Man predicts an American economic collapse and a ...
www.onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2715.shtml - Cached - Similar


ITS ALL GOING ACCORDING TO PLAN,FOLKS.....
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
73. Thank you Blanche -- I read some stuff from Carol Gilligan a long time ago
It was pretty good, as I recall. Something about myths I believe.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
24. Kick!
:kick:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
25. Ther Republicans announce that they want Inspector Javert to be named Attorney General
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
27. Lacking empathy is synonymous with having no conscience which is the calling card of Psychopathy.
http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780767915823&view=excerpt"> The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout, Ph.D.
Imagine--if you can--not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.
How will you live your life? What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)? The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people-- whether they have a conscience or not-- favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by bloodlust and those who have no such appetites.

Maybe you are someone who craves money and power, and though you have no vestige of conscience, you do have a magnificent IQ. You have the driving nature and the intellectual capacity to pursue tremendous wealth and influence, and you are in no way moved by the nagging voice of conscience that prevents other people from doing everything and anything they have to do to succeed. You choose business, politics, the law, banking, international development, or any of a broad array of other power professions, and you pursue your career with a cold passion that tolerates none of the usual moral or legal encumbrances. When it is expedient, you doctor the accounting and shred the evidence, you stab your employees and your clients (or your constituency) in the back, marry for money, tell lethal premeditated lies to people who trust you, attempt to ruin colleagues who are powerful or eloquent, and simply steam-roll over groups who are dependent and voiceless. And all of this you do with the exquisite freedom that results from having no conscience whatsoever.
You become unimaginably, unassailably, and maybe even globally successful. Why not? With your big brain, and no conscience to rein in your schemes, you can do anything at all.
<snip>


K&R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Good call.
Thank you.
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AverageJoe5 Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Heads (minds), not hearts (empathy)
Empathy is a worthwhile virtue in many aspects of life, but it should not be a factor in legal proceedings. Judges should use their heads (minds), not their hearts (empathy), to make judicial decisions.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Why do laws exist?
Why do we have a judicial/legal apparatus at all?

It makes no sense to discuss any aspect of the law unless you are willing to discuss the effects of the law upon people.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Respectfully disagree.
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 09:48 AM by H2O Man
The most obvious example of where empathy can play a role in the court system is found at its most basic level. There are good reasons for not having mandatory sentencing for every crime. Giving a judge or justice of the peace sentencing guidelines is a good thing -- it allows for the consideration of mitigating circumstances, and gives the court the option of selecting the most fair and useful sentence. As a retired social worker, who had the opportunity to work with the court system for decades, I found empathy to play an important and positive role in defining justice.

(Edited to note: I also respectfully disagree with your definitions.)
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Empathy is not a virtue you can turn on or off!
It’s an instinct that affects the way you interact with your fellow human beings, and having empathy for a victim of a crime doesn’t mean that you will not do everything in your power to stop and prosecute the criminal. So these criminals infiltrate political and legal system for the purpose of decriminalizing their activities to the point where these systems no longer protect the general welfare of the majority; and when the legal system lacks empathy it has a tendency to blame and or criminalize the victims while embellishing the criminal, especially if the criminal is very wealthy.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. many sociopaths...
pretend to control their empathy. What they do not realize, is they don't have the ability to feel empathy at all. What they will exhibit is a perception of empathy to blend in with others. Every now and then, they will admit to not giving a damn about people or animals at all.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. Psychopaths pretending to control their empathy!
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 04:46 PM by Larry Ogg
It does look like that some times; I’m not a corrupt evil bastard who doesn’t care about anyone who hasn’t been corporately personified, I’m just controlling my empathy so I can do what’s right for my corporate masters -- oops I mean the American People.

What was especially obvious with the Sotomayor hearings; the Republicans were adamant about empathy somehow being detrimental to the process of justice, as if ones conscience would get in the way of our monolithic theological pretend democracy legal system, and we must ensure that judges can check their conscience in at the door, or even better yet, not have a conscience at al, and then that way the judges will be able to sleep at night and always favor the law no mater how corrupt it becomes.

I agree, what ever show of love or empathy that comes from a psychopath is just that; a show. But they do however know what it is in the sense that it gives them the ability to masterfully mimic these feelings externally, so as they can blend in and manipulate their unsuspecting victims; there’s a term called “the mask of sanity” and on occasion the psychopath will show their true colors, but people not knowing the psychology behind it won’t easily pick up on the clues…


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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
49. it is unnatural to separate empathy from human decision making
even Spock was half human... data, not so much, but then again, he was man-made, and artificial.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. Domestic "Shock and Awe"
According to its original theorists, Shock and Awe renders an adversary unwilling to resist through overwhelming displays of power.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Examples of Shock and Awe Doctrine
Haitian example: "imposing shock and awe through a show of force and indeed through deception, misinformation, and disinformation."

The Roman legions: "Achieving shock and awe rests in the ability to deter and overpower an adversary through the adversary’s perception and fear of his vulnerability and our own invincibility."

Decay and default: "The imposition of societal breakdown over a lengthy period, but without the application of massive destruction."

Wikipedia
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
75. Minds & Hearts are BOTH needed, & empathy is ALWAYS part of a judge's
decision, looking at each case from every angle conceivable & then deciding/judgeing.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. Galbraith said it succinctly
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Hi Pain, if you liked what Galbraith had to say about “Moral justification for selfishness”
then you will definitely like what http://www.fluxneo.com/llbarnhart/bastiat.htm"> Frederick Bastiat said about the law.

The Origin of Law
<snip>
In order to understand the origins of law, it is useful to survey our options when it comes to relating to one another. "Man can live and satisfy his wants only by ceaseless labor; by the ceaseless application of his faculties to natural resources. This process is the origin of property.
"But it is also true that a man may live and satisfy his wants by seizing and consuming the products of the labor of others. This process is the origin of plunder. Now since man is naturally inclined to avoid pain -; and since labor is pain in itself -;it follows that men will resort to plunder whenever plunder is easier than work. History shows this quite clearly. And under these conditions, neither religion nor morality can stop it.
"When, then, does plunder stop? It stops when it becomes more painful and more dangerous than labor."4
In general, a culture or community prospers in proportion to the number of honest workers it has relative to the number of predators in their midst. On the face of it, this concept is quite simple. However, there is no nation or community in the world that does not have legal double standards. In other words, what is illegal for most remains legal for some. When this happens, the predators have, in effect, overtaken the organization that was originally created to control them.
<snip>

And welcome to DU :hi:


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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #69
81. Cuckoo's Nest
Your post reminds me of the phrase referring not only the necessity to adhere to the letter of the law,but to the SPIRIT of the law,when meting out justice.

BTW,Thank you for the welcome,too!
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
48. GREAT BOOK!!!! Read a good portion of it!
read this folks and you will get to see the workings of sociopaths you have come to know throughout your lives and not even know it until after reading this. Yes, those unfeeling manipulative folks are sometimes, sociopaths.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
77. Good point
I remember that from the preface to the Ponerology book.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
91. Yes it was; and listening to those republican senators was textbook Ponerology,
I was just a little shocked that they would be so brazen in public with their assault on empathy, it’s like they were referring to it as some kind of mental weakness or disorder that has no place in political office. It was conversive thinking / reversive blockade and para-moralism all rolled into one. Unfortunately - people who have a conscience and are able to experience empathy might not or don't have the understanding to see the attack for what it is, i.e. someone who lacks empathy condemning it. Again it was textbook Ponerology.

Now how does that saying go? “You just can’t make this stuff up!”

Another kick
Larry


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NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
32. Emailed to friends.
Well done.

NoFederales
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
33. There’s no doubt that empathy and morality to some people is an external concept of words,
unlike the majority of humans who are able to internalize and feel empathy regardless of words; but words do little to describe that experience which is inherent to most of us. It’s like trying to describe to a persons who was born without eye’s what sight looks like so as they can get their automobile drivers license, and once behind the wheel it would soon become obvious that it would be insane to let a blind person drive.

And it is equally insane to let people who lack empathy into positions of political power, as death and destruction grows exponentially with their empathy lacking influence over society, because their own personal gain is paramount to the suffering of others. There for it is only natural for them to dispose of the laws that restrict their empathy lacking influence, while imposing iron fisted laws on those who are harmed by and therefore resist their influence…

Great OP Dr. Dale, I’m glad you brought it up.
Larry

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
78. Thank you Larry -- As you point out,
we will be a lot better off once we learn to keep people like that out of power. When will be ever learn?
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srf Rantz Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
34. great post
I remember a few years back in the depths of the Cheney/Busy era trying to understand the deep divide between left and right, progressive and conservative/regressive. trying to boil it all down to a single factor at the root of the division. I clearly remember the night I was laying in bed, tossing and turning, when the word "empathy" popped into my head. one of those eureka moments.

"they don't or can't experience empathy!"

so glad to see TfC elucidate and reaffirm what I was wanting to express.

thank you!

btw, there is also a great piece awhile back by one of the Crisis Papers guys on empathy-challenged rw-ers.
maybe someone else can dig up the link, have to go right now...
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
79. Thank you -- You'd probably be very interested in George Lakoff's book,
"Whose Freedom" -- noted in the OP.
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surfinshell Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
36. the only people I don't have empathy for
are conservatives.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
38. The only "freedoms" or "rights" Conservatives have ever given a shit about are...
1. The freedom to get obscenely rich; and

2. The right to be an asshole.


After all, what good is 'democracy' if it doesn't allow me to pile up massive wealth? What good is 'liberty' if it doesn't let me ignore and/or pile onto the suffering of poor people and brown people and other people who aren't like me?

That's it, in a nutshell.

Whenever they wave the flag and dribble on about 'the Founders' and 'rights' and 'preserving the Constitution' and other jingoist ya-ya, rah-rah, blather, that's what they are talking about. 'MY right to get rich. MY freedom to be a shitheel. And fuck you and anyone else who would threaten that.'

Of course they despise empathy.

disgustedly,
Bright
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. At their core, they hate humanity
Ergo they hate themselves. And they want to destroy anything that doesn't fit their narrow world view.

I think the more greedy conservatives are driven by the drive to be obscenely rich -- the less fortunate be damned. But many of those who follow conservative ideology seem to be powered by an intense self loathing more than greed. And this is the most frightening part of conservative though to me.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
59. What happened to Commonwealth?
Is a civilized society built and maintained ONLY on the backs and burdens of the underpriviliged and the intentionally disenfranchised?

Perfect example-healthcare.

It really should be named wealthcare...for insurance companies and Big Pharma.
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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
39. Stripping people of their humanity describes conservative ideology in a nutshell
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 10:14 AM by Politicub
It's very scary when you think conservatives could get back in power and implement their agenda. And their followers will go along in lockstep, abandoning any shred of history, humanity and centuries of discovery and education that get in their way.

Once you begin to think of people as something other than human, you can treat them as objects to be manipulated. There is so much complexity to being a conscious human being. This is why I believe the conservative/GOP way of always looking at issues in a black or white context sells the human experience short and needs brutal enforcement to sustain.

Someone else posted a thread today about the death of critical thought. Reading most comment fields attached to articles in the mainstream media and on blogs, as well as watching the national news, proves out how far gone we are as a society. The sheer number (millions or billions) of those would would willingly support the implementation of extremist conservative ideology boggles the mind. IMHO, most conservatives hate humanity and progress, and want nothing more to see it extinguished along with themselves. So much hatred for self and society is clearly caustic to the mind.

In this regard, the "pro life" stance of most republicans is nothing more than a fig leaf to cover their outright disdain for their fellow man. I can't relate to those who devote their life to controlling what women do with their bodies. When I started writing this post, I didn't intend to put anything about abortion since it can go down a one track path with replies just about abortion. I used it to provide one example of the absurdity of conservatives' acceptance of cognitive dissonance.

Let's all hope that the American body politic isn't too far gone to achieve enough momentum to turn around the boiling conservative hatred for mankind.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
42. K&R. That lack of empathy made it easier for the Republicans to pretend
that the privileged white men who have dominated the court and our legislature for years had not let their identities influence their rulings.

Their lack of empathy allowed them to keep harping on a few of Sotomayor's speeches while unable to cite any of her many cases and rulings which had shown any bias.

It was so frustrating to watch that-- their repeated condemnations of her admitting that her identity could bring some valuable diversity to the court, pretending that white male dominance has had no effect on the court's rulings. Pretending that privileged white males were somehow exempt from being influenced by their identities. It felt like the proverbial elephant in the living room.

I wonder what those self-righteous white Republican senators would say when asked in a different setting whether their identity as Christians influenced the way they legislate. They'd probably brag about consulting The (Christian) Lord about their decisions.

Heck, the C-Street group live in premises owned by a Christian church.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
82. They're making themselves look like idiots -- for anyone who cares to watch
They're a bunch of hypocritical self-righteous jerks. They would never admit to letting their Christian fundamentalism influence their decisions -- unless talking to a bunch of right wingers.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-21-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. It is a great pity that right wingers own so much of our mass media.
We see right wingers' hypocrisy every day and hope lots of other people get to see their ridiculous comments.

But far too much of the broadcast news edits out the most ridiculous points and presents the opposition as though it were credible. As though the very same arguments hadn't been trotted out over 15 years ago and been proven false through our bitter experience.

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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
47. Republican Class Warfare
May I suggest this piece by Joe Palermo.

It is superb,and much in line with your OT.

Joseph A. Palermo: Republican "Class Warfare"
Jan 23, 2008 ... With the current economic meltdown millions of Americans might be starting to wake up to the new reality brought on by years of unbridled ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../republican-class-warfare_b_82904.html - Cached - Similar
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. America's White Underclass
July 17, 2009
America's White Underclass
When seeing ain't believing, somebody's blind

By Joe Bageant

"White underclass" is a term I've used often in my writing, and most American readers seem to know what I mean. They've got eyes and live in the same nation I do. But in a sudden burst of journalistic responsibility, I decided that if I am going to throw around the word underclass, then I should offer some clearer, perhaps more scientific definition.

So I started writing this with a pile of published research papers before me. Now they are in the trash can by my side. Looking down on them, I can see the gobbledygook titles, the stuff of which government policy and political platforms are made. They run together in slurry of the language of our society's commissars: Concerning-Prevalence-Growth-and-Dynamics-Concentrated Urban Poverty Areas- block-level vs. tract-level segregation-800-tract-tables-urban abstracts-Defining-and-Measuring-the-Underclass-from-The Journal of Policy Analysis and Management-statistical-summary-of …

Continue reading "America's White Underclass" »
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Blog link
Joe Bageant // BlogCatalog Topic // BlogCatalog
For everyone who enjoyed that contest, I hope you'll enjoy this different-but-same kind of exploration. Joe Bageant's blog, Deer Hunting with Jesus (he's ...
www.blogcatalog.com/topic/joe+bageant/ - Cached - Similar
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. Thank you -- I think he's got it right
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 07:44 PM by Time for change
Class warfare. Keep the working person down in order to keep themselves on top.

Thank you for all the links.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #83
95. Are you familiar with the pieces by Chris Floyd?
PLEASE check out some of the most thoughful pieces,truly superior commentaries on the web,imho,(besides yours,ofcourse.)
One of my favorites:

Welcome to Chris Floyd's Empire Burlesque
Jul 12, 2009 ... Chris Floyd - Empire Burlesque - High Crimes and Low Comedy in the American Imperium.
www.chris-floyd.com/ - Cached - Similar
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
55. All well and good,
Edited on Sun Jul-19-09 02:13 PM by Enthusiast
the Republicans and their whining about empathy are utterly ridiculous.

But even more ridiculous is the fact that the media places so much emphasis (same root as empathy) on the proclamations of Republicans. Ask yourself, why is it everything stops and the MSM says "A Republican has spoken! Everyone listen! This must be very important!"? I mean the assholes rightfully lost the elections.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Right -- To a very large extent, our corporate news media is the communications arm of the
Republican Party -- plus assorted Democrats whom they've managed to gain control over.
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DallasNE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
57. More Missing Empathy
No empathy was shown for their families by Sen. Vitter and Ensign or Gov. Sanford. If that is the way they feel about their families it certainly comes as no surprise about their lack of empathy of the general public. In fact, it is this carry-over factor that contributes to the notion that sleeze is just fine.
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SalviaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
61. k and r
thanks for the great post
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
68. When you don't have a heart
you can't fathom how those who do are of any use to humanity.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
74. This is a beautiful, articulate and
well thought out post. Thank you for sharing it with us. I agree with all of your points, and I have noticed that even in one on one interactions with extreme conservatives something is missing from their ability to identify with the pain and misfortune of others.

There is a bright shiny hardness as hard to cut through as a diamond that keeps them enclosed in their little metal bubbles of isolation and blindness to people in need or the needs of society at large.

You laid it all out, logically and truthfully. Without empathy and feelings for the plight of others we are something less than human.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Where's the empathy in Israel?
The US is the BIGGEST fan and underwriter of Israel- who has been systemically and brutally exterminating and disenfranchizing the people of Gaza for YEARS now.

Birds of a feather flock together,now don't they?



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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Not all of us...
support the actions being taken in Gaza by Israel. Neither do many Israelis. Bush and his supporters were big cheerleaders for the extreme militarism in Israel because they could use it to help justify their own actions.

I think it is a mistake to treat people as interchangeable widgets and assume that we all share the same ideas and sentiments. We are all different with different ideas and feelings. By sharing them with each other we are sharing part of a larger truth that we would not be able to see alone. That is the purpose of discussion.

Out of curiosity how did you find a pro militaristic stance in what I wrote. I was expressing admiration for someone else's post not taking a stand on Gaza. If you want to know my stand on anything, just ask. I am not shy about saying what I think. On this one though,I'll give you my thoughts without a formal question. I am a Quaker. I believe, as do most other Quakers, in peace. I don't believe in violence or force between people or nations. I do not believe in greed or taking from your neighbors. I think conflict resolution which empowers both sides of a dispute may by slower to achieve, but provides a more lasting solution. Does that clarify my views for you? Oh, and I do not believe in Bush or any other politician who can only govern by having his foot on someone else's neck.
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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Shadow boxing
I found nothing militaristic in your post whatsoever.

Your defensiveness is unwarranted.

I had been reading ANOTHER OT by time for Change about Goldman Sachs and the proliferation of GS appointees to Obama adminstration.

It brought to mind how the AIPAC interests in the highest echelons of our government seems to have trumped the moral and ethical obligation that we should be demanding of Israel ---to stop violating the human rughts of the Gaza residents,or we cut back on giving Israel any more money.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. What makes you assume I am defensive?
Again I would prefer if you ask what I felt instead of telling me. In order to have been defensive I would have had to have promulgated the same views as the post you disliked when you confused one the other. I did not see the same post you did, so the confusion is yours.

Can we agree that instead of telling me how I feel you should ask me first? I don't know if you are a man or not but ( she ducks) men do have a tendency to tell women what they are thinking instead of asking us. Really, women are capable beings of free will and lucid thought who are willing and able to formulate our own ideas and responses. Sometimes it takes us awhile to get people to listen, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.

Expressing strong ideas in a forum which accommodates the expression of strong ideas does not render the person doing the expression defensive. That is what we are all here for. Self expression of ideas which are important to us, hoping that others will hear us. We lay ourselves open to a greater or lesser degree when we do so. We make ourselves in some way vulnerable. Vulnerability is the opposite of defensiveness. Being defensive makes you close yourself off and not say what you think unless you are sure that your listeners either do or will agree with you.

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PainPerdu Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. Subjective opinions
ALL opinions are subjective-even yours,Ms. Quacker.

Interestiing that Nixon was a Quaker,btw.

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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
96. Yes, opinions are subjective.....
to the people who have them. That is why subjective opinions should not be imposed on others. They may not be valid. Subjective does not have the same meaning as objective. Objective carries with it the meaning of approaching a person or situation without any judgments formed beforehand. It gives two people the chance to share thoughts and ideas without one of them trying to impose their "subjective" opinions formed without real knowledge of another person on them. I do have subjective opinions but I try not to let them dictate how I relate to other people or how I approach them. They belong to me, and often change as I get more information and find out things I had not known before. When I write or speak I try to keep my opinions on the topic, disagree politely with the ideas put forth and keep myself as honest as I can. It's better that way, don't you think?

Everyone brings up Nixon as a Quaker.:rofl: He wasn't, anymore than anyone else who falls away from a religion and does not practice it, is is a Catholic, Buddhist, Presbyterian or Methodist or anything else. Nixon's mother was a Quaker, and I believe she lived her values well. Nixon didn't. I think Nixon was a thug. Those values seemed to be what he lived and put forth to the world at large and his family as well. He conducted not only his business like a criminal, but the business of this country as well. I can't think of any other president who felt impelled to say in a public speech, "I am not a crook," even when they were crooks. Nixon holds the honors for that one.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #74
84. Thank you -- I guess that explains why when talking to some of these people
it feels as if we're talking to a wall.
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gleaner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. You're entirely welcome....
Sometimes it does seem hard to touch other people with our ideas, but you are doing a great job. Keep it up, and don't get discouraged.:toast:
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
76. "Bleeding Heart Liberals"
How many times have I heard that saying in the last decades? To me, the image comes directly from religion. One of the most ancient symbols of Jesus is the flaming, bleeding heart. When conservatives use this hackneyed phrase to describe anyone with a moral, social cause, they're mocking the very religion they claim to value. They're all hypocrites.

And many, many Supreme Court cases have required the Justices to balance the interests on either side. If they have to balance the various interests involved in a case, they have to put themselves in the place of the parties involved. But I would suspect that guys like Scalia are incapable of balancing the interests of the parties before them. They prejudge the case and already know which interest they wish to protect, to whatever detriment to the other party their decision will involve.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #76
85. Great point
"Bleeding heart" is the term they use to disparage liberals, and then they complain about our lack of "morals" because we don't believe in their fundamentalist conception of God.

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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
88. Makes sense. They'd rather LEGISLATE "morality"...
... which wouldn't require empathy at all.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
93. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
94. LOL, I posted this to my facebook page. FIREWORKS!
I posted it, and then I made dinner and spent the evening with my husband and son. While I was away from the computer, my FB link turned into a 40-post pissing match with one lone "libertarian" friend telling my other FB friends how stupid/victimized they are for supporting universal health care. He did not win the fight.

I sent him a well-intended and good-humored note, and then he started it up with me, and got soundly drubbed AGAIN.


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