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Too Bad our Current Generation of Politicians Doesn’t Remember the Nuremberg Trials

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:00 PM
Original message
Too Bad our Current Generation of Politicians Doesn’t Remember the Nuremberg Trials
Three months ago I met with staff of my Congressperson, Chris Van Hollen, as part of a three-person delegation, to request support for measures to investigate and hold the Bush administration responsible for their crimes. I posted a description of the meeting here. Here are some excerpts from my prepared comments:

Our country has recently suffered through eight years of the most lawless presidential administration in our history. Most important, our president declared that the Geneva Conventions no longer applied to his prisoners. That decision not only went far towards destroying the foundations of international law, but it also led to repeated violations of U.S. law and our Constitution. From that decision, a long series of horrors was unleashed, including torture and the indefinite detention of thousands of men and boys, who were stripped of all their human rights… So, why do we urge the creation of a commission to investigate the Bush administration crimes if we already know about these things?

First of all, too many Americans do not know about them. These crimes have been given way too little attention by our national news media over the past 8 years. The creation of a commission to investigate them would provide much needed attention to some of the worst crimes committed by the U.S. government in our history.

Secondly… We as a nation need to understand how and why this all happened. We owe it to future generations to get to the bottom of this sordid story, so that we can take steps to ensure that it does not happen again.

Finally, it is essential to hold those responsible for these crimes accountable for their actions. If we fail to do that we essentially condone them. That would send a terrible signal to future government leaders and to the American people. Essentially, we would be signaling that such crimes are not very serious and that they may be committed with impunity – as long as the perpetrators are high enough up in the food chain. If we allow this to pass, we should not be surprised to see it happen again in the not distant future. For that reason, we want to make it absolutely clear that in recommending the creation of a commission of inquiry we do not see it as a substitute for prosecutions of the guilty, but rather as an accompaniment to them.

President Obama has spoken of the need to “look towards the future”. I agree with that. But we cannot look towards the future by ignoring the past and by condoning heinous crimes committed by the highest officials in our government. With that kind of attitude we may as well empty our prisons of all their murderers, on the rationalization that their crimes were committed in the past, and we need to look towards the future instead…

Since our meeting, the leader of our group, Paul Grenier, has maintained intermittent follow-up contact with Rep. Van Hollen’s office. Though the response has been generally sympathetic, most recently Van Hollen’s staff noted the “quandary re how you prosecute people for doing things that were authorized by people high up in the Justice Dept.”


The Nuremberg trials

That comment suggests either an ignorance or lack of willingness to acknowledge the leading role that our nation played in the Nuremberg trials of 1945-6. In doing so, it plays right into one of the worst character traits of our country – the arrogant attitude of ‘American Exceptionalism’. That attitude was well summed up when George W. Bush said that “No American soldier should ever face trial in anything but a U.S. court.” In other words, screw international law because Americans are above that.

That is very unfortunate because human civilization currently faces two possibilities: international law or a combination of international tyranny, anarchy, and perpetual war. Following World War II, the creation of the United Nations represented perhaps the most comprehensive effort in world history towards the former. Its stated goals were:

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war… to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person…to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life…

The Nuremberg “Trial of the Major War Criminals” was considered a major part of that effort. Of the 22 Nazi leaders who were tried by the victorious Allies, 12 were sentenced to death, 3 were sentenced to life in prison, 4 were sentenced to smaller prison sentences, and 3 were acquitted. History professor Richard Overy explains the stated purpose of the Nuremberg trials:

What the Allied powers had in mind was a tribunal that would make the waging of aggressive war, the violation of sovereignty and the perpetration of what came to be known in 1945 as 'crimes against humanity' internationally recognized offences…

Justice Robert Jackson, who led the American prosecution team, saw the trial as an opportunity to lay down clear lines of conduct in international affairs and in the acceptable treatment of a population by its own government.

Senator Christopher Dodd, in his book, “Letters from Nuremburg – My Father’s Narrative of a Quest for Justice”, says it even more eloquently:

The argument that eventually prevailed was based on two powerful ideas. By trying those who carried out a criminal war, a complete record of their actions could be shown to the world, therefore announcing once and for all that such behavior would not be tolerated by the community of civilized nations. And, in giving the defendants a chance to hear the evidence against them and to defend themselves, the Allies would take the moral high ground…


“Victor’s Justice”

With a proper understanding of the principles that underlay the Nuremberg trials, the “quandary re how you prosecute people for doing things that were authorized by people high up in the Justice Dept.” noted by Rep. Van Hollen’s staff is really no quandary at all. Indeed, the fact that these things were authorized by people high up in the Justice Department (and even higher) is all the more reason for us to undertake a repeat of the Nuremberg trials. In fact, if we don’t we are virtually admitting that our role in them was a hypocritical sham.

One of the major criticisms of the Nuremberg trials at the time was the argument of victor’s justice”. That is the argument that the Nuremberg trials were not undertaken for the noble reasons that were claimed by the victorious powers, but rather that they were merely a manifestation of the victors taking vengeance upon the losers.

I have always rejected that (and other) argument against the Nuremberg trials. I have always believed that they were not only legitimate but essential. Anyone who commits serious crimes should be held accountable. The fact that some people are able to avoid accountability because they hold positions of power is very regrettable, but that is no reason why we shouldn’t hold anyone accountable for their crimes. With that attitude, nobody would ever be tried for any crime.

And as long as those who mete out justice do so out of a sincere respect for justice and the rule of law, justice and the rule of law have a chance to prevail. But when the powerful develop the attitude that the laws that they preside over apply to everyone else but not to them, that’s when the foundation and respect for law collapses. That’s when law becomes nothing but “victor’s justice” – which is no justice at all.


The hypocrisy and arrogance of American Exceptionalism

Senator Dodd makes the point in his book that our lead in developing a framework for international law was rooted primarily in our moral example. Speaking of the rest of the world, he writes:

They understood that the ability of the United States to help bring about a world of peace and justice was rooted not in our military might alone but our moral authority… Our ability to succeed in spreading values of freedom and democracy and human rights would only be as effective as our own willingness to uphold them…

But seeing how our own country repeatedly showed nothing but contempt for the rule of law during the Bush administration, Dodd asks:

How can we expect developing nations around the world to give credence to the rule of law when our own leaders choose to ignore it? On what moral authority can we tell other countries not to detain unlawfully and torture American citizens when we fail to abide by the same rules? ….

Increasingly, our country is abandoning the moral high ground and the putting aside of weapons that inspire people… Thus I fear that each step we take from presenting ourselves as unambiguously dedicated to preserving the rule of law is a step in the direction of a less secure United States. What good is the information gained from torturing one Iraqi insurgent if doing so causes us to be despised by a million Iraqi children?

Benjamin Ferencz, a member of the prosecution at Nuremberg, makes a similar point. Referring to the Bush administration’s contempt for the rule of law, Ferencz says:

What the United States is saying is that we don't want the rule of law. I think that is dangerous, very dangerous, because we cannot lay down a law for the United States and not for the rest of the world. That doesn't fly. Justice Jackson made that clear at Nuremberg. Law must apply to everyone equally or it's not law at all. Those who are pushing the other view have a misguided idea of what law is all about.


The legacy of Nuremberg

Despite the high hopes and the sincere intentions of many of those involved, neither the United Nations nor the Nuremberg trials that accompanied its creation worked out quite as planned. As Professor Overy notes:

The legacy of the trials was nevertheless ambiguous. None of the new legal instruments has prevented the abuse of human rights, racial killing or aggressive war since 1945… Many perpetrators evaded justice entirely…

To a significant extent, the effort was hampered from the beginning by the refusal to address the crimes committed by our own side. And then in the years that followed, prior to the Bush administration, our own country repeatedly engaged in regime changes of democratically elected governments in the cause of keeping the world safe for corporate capitalism; and we engaged in a catastrophic war in Vietnam that was punctuated by numerous atrocities and caused the deaths of some two million Vietnamese civilians. That is not the kind of record that facilitates respect for the rule of law.

Our nation’s contempt for the rule of law reached an all time low under the eight years of the presidency of George W. Bush – which explains why historians consistently rate him as the worst president in U.S. history.

Now that Bush and Cheney are out of office we have a chance to get back on the right track. But refusing to prosecute the high officials who are responsible for the kinds of crimes that we prosecuted at Nuremberg will do nothing to restore our reputation, our former leadership role, or respect for the rule of law in the world.

Attorney General Holder is now reported to be considering a criminal investigation of U.S. officials who engaged in or promoted torture. The American people could help sway his opinion on this by letting him know (AskDOJ@usdoj.gov) that prosecuting war crimes is not a matter of “looking backwards”, but rather is a matter of looking forward to a world where war crimes and crimes against humanity will no longer be tolerated – by anyone. Contacting our Congresspersons about this issue could also be very helpful, in generating support to help Holder withstand the intense pressure we will undoubtedly have to face should he decide to do the right thing.

The world is too small today for us to realistically hope to live in peace without a solid framework of international law. That is the equivalent of living in our country without a solid framework of domestic law. The type of American Exceptionalism that says that Americans shouldn’t have to follow the international laws that the rest of the world is obliged to follow is a repugnant idea. That kind of thinking has led in the past and will continue to lead in the future to American imperialism, crimes against humanity, genocide, and an unsustainable world in the long run.
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katty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. don't remember or won't? denial is a handy tool in these times
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Probably more like WON'T
It is the issue of American Exceptionalism that I mentioned briefly in the OP. Our culture bombards us with the idea that we are better than other peoples in every way. That attitude has led to a militaristic habit that will be the death of us and the world too if we don't reverse course. But you can't correct a problem if you refuse to see it as a problem.

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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R. I Hope This Withstands The Echo Chamber Feature
a.k.a. unrecommend.

The Nuremberg judges and lawyers are spinning in their graves with energy sufficient to light the eastern seaboard.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
26. Thank you -- Not many people are able to directly come out against the principles enunciated at the
Nuremburg trials. They bear a strong resemblence to long held American values.

Instead, when the shoe is on the other foot, as it now is, they simply wish to ignore the lessons of Nuremberg, in which we attempted to seek justice and set an example for all the world to follow.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Don't you get it? The Twiitter/Facebook Crowd doesn't remember...why would you burden them with that
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 07:14 PM by KoKo
They know what they are doing. Why "Piss in the winds of change." Old...Old...Old.

This is the NEW PARADIGM.. And, don't ever forget it.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Some of Today's Perpetrators are Older Than 60
They should know better.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. That's true what you say...in Banking Industry, for one....
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 08:33 PM by KoKo
Old enough to know better but look at the young ones? Then Military: Rumsfeld, Cheney and many of the NeoCons and others who "LIVE" and are old enough to know better.
Maybe it's just a complete rot. But, there were many who were "old" who did try to stop it...along with some savvy "young." We gotta keep the alliance going.

Yet...the memories are mostly with those considered "Old" now. Like not "internet savvy" and ready for the nursing home.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. And...BTW...Nuremburg is as "OLD" to them as the Pyramids in Egypt!
Edited on Fri Jul-17-09 07:18 PM by KoKo
So much has changed in our "TECHNO USA" and so much Psychological Studies to Bend our Minds...why would you think anyone would care about our past. Most kids I know, eyes glaze over at mention of Constitution. They say to me: "Bunch of old White Guys who made law for everyone else."

This is what is new. We are going to, one day soon, not live by those "Old White Guy Rules." Our kids don't want it...and who is to say they are WRONG? Who is to say? :shrug:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. When I was young I thought that the lessons of the Holocaust
were some of the most important things that we needed to learn.

But like so many other things, it turns out that those are lessons that so many Americans believe apply to other people, but not us.
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lexanman Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. They do remember.
Its the people who may not remember or care, which is a shame. They also held people responsible for propaganda criminally liable as well.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. another 10-20 yrs and the greatest generation will be a footnote in history
the greatest generation fought to rid the world of the very thing that our country has done.have they died in vain? our country will have no moral standing in the world until our country decides to bring those responsible to justice.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
20. It is definitely a moral and an ethical responsibility that we owe the world. War criminals... n/t
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 12:27 AM by Mnemosyne
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Shireling Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. Kurt Vonnegut
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 02:42 PM by Shireling
says that same thing in "A Man Without A Country"...

"But I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened instead is that it was taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d'`etat imaginable."
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. So much easier to just look the other way,,,,,
...or "Look Forward", or something like that.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
:kick:
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newfie11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
10. I am sure they remember them
They just don't think it applies to America.
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ControlledDemolition Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R. n/t
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Just following orders was the defense then
And it was soundly rejected by the court and the American people then...but not now.
They say that 911 changed everything and I guess that means to them the law as well.

We need to reflect on how we got to this point and what process led us to this state of affairs.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. That is their plan
Say it loud enough and frequently enough that 9/11 changed everything, and they hoep to get the American people to agree to the wholesale destruction of our Constitution.

We certainly do need to reflect on how we got to this point.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Something i would like to see you cover sometime
Is why the last anti war movement failed. And perhaps it could lend some insight to why this one will fail also.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. That's an important one
In referring to the last anti-war movement, which one are you talking about -- the Iraq War?

It seems to me that anti-war movements need not be simply considered successes or failures, but rather that most of them would be categorized as something in between. The anti-war movement against the Iraq War failed to prevent that war, and catastrophic damage then ensued. But at the same time, it also seems that the war will probably end much sooner than it would have without the anti-War movement. Same thing with the anti-war movement against the Vietnam War. We ended up killing about two million innocent civilians in Vietnam. But eventually the anti-war movement forced it to end. It could easily have been twice as bad. It could still be going on now. And public opposition to war against Iran may have been responsible for preventing that war.

It seems to me that we have an ongoing battle between militant nationalists in this country and those who favor peace. I believe that what we most need is a permanent change of our cultural attitudes, along with a permanent and better way of holding our government accountable to the desires of the American people. That could prevent war permanently. We'd better get there soon.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. permanent change of our cultural attitudes
you are right of course but I would say it a little diferent...fundamental change of our cultural attitudes. And with it must also be fundamental change in our political system. And i think the later of these two must come first.

All of our problems concerning getting government to do what is in the best interests of it's people are related to money in politics...that should be clear to all of us by now. As long as money can have free speech and be allowed to buy influence in our political system nothing much will change and certainly not fundamentally.

And yes all anti war protests are a little bit successful. At least in the short run...but what I was talking about is how we got from stopping the Viet Nam war to 6 years later to Regan and the turning over of government to private internists. Surly we can see that in the long run it failed to bring peace to this country. And we found ourselves in a much worse situation than Reagan.

And our protests are non-events as far as the media and the politicians are concerned, no matter how many show up...we get our permits to march, they cordon off the streets where we will be kept, and we march and carry signs,make a little noise and the media ho hums the whole affair.
Our protest are nothing more than a weekend outing.
There must be better ways to make it count to them.... there has to be some down side to ignoring the reasons for the protest and right now there is none.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. "There must be better ways to make it count to them"
Yes, probably so. I wish I knew what they were.

I agree with what you say here. I have posted several times about the problem of there being too much money in politics.

The Reagan presidency was a big turning point in our country, I believe. How did we get from 1974 to 1980? There was the "October Surprise", engineered by Bush and Reagon, but certainly Bush had a much bigger role in it. I wonder where we'd be today had Carter won a second term. Or Kennedy before him?

We certainly didn't learn much of a lesson from Vietnam. Our children are not taught history well. Too much emphasis on congratulating ourselves about what a great country we are. No enough emphasis on our mistakes, and what we need to do to correct them. I wish I knew what it will take.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Well I am no expert on anything but.
I have this idea that noting short of a national strike and a march on DC where the protesters stay until the demands are met.
And those demands must be clear and simple...a fundamental change in how we elect congress that takes the money out of the mix.
The reason I say this is that we the people cannot compete with the moneyed class and they will always win in a game of money as speech.

What we are doing now is not working...we fight for scraps that fall off the table, and usually wind up fighting among ourselves over who gets the scraps.
At some point we must draw a line in the sand and not be bluffing. And we must be focused on one thing only...laws that make it illegal to accept money from lobbyist and transparent and verifiable elections results with public financing of elections. Until we have elected officials that are not bought and paid for by special interests we will always come up on the short end of the stick.

But of course there is more to the story than the October suprise...there was the neutralizing of the peace movement with the carrot and stick. Some of the leadership in the peace movement sold out and became money market managers on wall street, and others went to jail because they were encouraged to commit crimes. And by 1980 they had been marginalized and silenced effectively.

So we are set up for some disapointments...the health care bill will not be what we need, it will be what they are willing to give us. and so it will be with all legislation that comes out of a congress that is in the pockets of the corporate interests. There may be some change, but not in the fundamental way that is necessary to bring peace and justice in the world.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. You speak of the neutralizing of the peace movement
I'm not very familiar with that. Do you have any good references?

The way I see it, we have 3 major problems that tend to re-enforce each other: Money in politics; corporate owned news media; non-transparent elections. Unfortunately, it appears to be a vicious cycle. We need to change our laws, but how is that to be done when, as you note, so many politicians are in the pockets of the corporatocracy?

Bill Moyers had some great things to say about money in politics, which I discuss in this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3650657

But there are some good trends too. The Internet is rapidly changing the way in which Americans receive information, and that is making a big dent. The 2006 and 08 elections are a case in point. But those elections have been offset to a large degree by the corporatocracy switching their money from Republicans to Democrats.

And then there is the issue of our shadow government, which IMO most made itself known through the assassination of JFK. Cheney's assassination program is another case in point. To what extent is that still operating. This is an area that we know so little about -- for pretty obvious reasons.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Sorry to reply so late but you may see it.
Most of what I post here is off the top of my head and I needed to refresh my memory of events 40 years ago.

And I guess the best example of what I am talking about comes from the dissolution of the Students For A Democratic Society…the SDS

Here is a link to documents including an FBI agent about the meeting in 1969


http://martinrealm.org/documents/radical/sixties1.html

And this Agents report is interesting because he was looking at for it’s negative value…
And there were agents among the convention who clearly turned it into a free for all.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Thank you zeemike
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Excellent post. K&R
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gimama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. thank YOU for Your ACTION & OP.. (eom)
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Krashkopf Donating Member (965 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-17-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. War Crimes MUST be prosecuted . . .
from the lowliest government (and contract) interrogators, all the way up the chain of command to the architects of the war crime policies in the White House and the Vice President’s office.

To only prosecute those war criminals who flagrantly violated the Bush administration’s illegal, immoral, policies, but not those who devised the plans, or those who were “only following orders” can mean only one of two things: Either the Nuremberg trials following WWII were nothing more than a cynical exercise in “victor’s justice;” or, the United States no longer adheres to the rule of law.

This is not hyperbole. It is the simple, God’s-honest-truth. The whole world is watching.

Krashkopf, Esq.
CPT, USAR, JAGC (1986 - 1992)
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Word Krashkopf. n/t
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. Justice Jackson was from my area of NW PA, born approx. 7 miles from my house and is buried
in Jamestown, NY, approx. 25 miles from his birthplace. Now I know what that whirling noise is when I go over there.

I started posting here on the Geneva and Nuremberg violations in 2004/05 and had many threads deleted rather quickly. I am so pleased this knowledge is growing now.

Fantastic post and thread, Time. Thank you.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Thank you -- They deleted posts on Geneva a Nuremberg violations?
On what grounds?
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Considered tinfoil then apparently.
I lost a newspaper job around then also, for the same reason. People were scared and my mouth was too large. :)
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jcarterhero Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Can't believe Obama isn't charging Bush and his cronies for their crimes
Really bad move on his part IMO.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. They Will Be Remembered -- As Our Lamest Generation
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 05:01 AM by Senator
Unwilling to abide by and enforce the laws and treaty obligations our greater generations fought and died to forge.

We need to draft Justice Souter to be our http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Jackson#Feud_with_Black">Justice Jackson.

But torture is too much drama for Obama.

--
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. The worst criminals at Nuremberg were hanged
As were War Criminals tried in Tokyo. Should that still be an acceptable form of punishment for War Crimes?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. I think it's best to give them life imprisonment
I don't really believe in the death penalty -- though I'm tempted to make an exception for certain war criminals. On the other hand, I'm sure that some of them would rather be sentenced to death rather than undergo life imprisonment under such humiliating circumstances.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. Unfortunately some of our worst 20th century monsters actually attended the trials.
Many of the early CIA mind experimentation doctors, most notably Dr. Ewen Cameron, were present at the trials. They decided that what happened was so despicable that they would prevent such atrocities from happening again at all cost. Their prevention plan including rooting out "weak-minded people" who might fall pray to such diabolical ideas and breaking their psyches to rebuild them. Their findings are used at Bagram to this very day.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. That is so sad
I have a very cynical attitude towards people who say that they would do anything to prevent more atrocities from happening again, and then commit atrocities to prevent atrocities from happening.
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ScottLand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Great piece, Time For Change!
I've always thought the Nuremberg trial stance is what we need on this. It's clichéd but the phrase "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" really applies here. Much of the things that happened under Bush were repeats of what has happened in our history since WW2. It's so very important now if we are to be respectable and decent in the future.:yourock:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Thank you ScottlLand
Edited on Sat Jul-18-09 06:19 PM by Time for change
I agree with you absolutely. Welcome to DU :toast:
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ScottLand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Thanks, Time For Change.
Great to be here!
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. Thank you for going to see your rep. How did it turn out? Is he being
responsive and is anything happening? I know my rep John Yarmuth would help. However, my two senators, McConnell and Bunning, are useless wastes of space and so there is no use even approaching either of them. My may hope now is that Bunning will run in 2010 and subsequently be defeated.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. I discuss our initial meeting here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5509181

Since then, we've had follow-up by e-mail and letter and phone -- to his staff, not to Van Hollen himself. Karen Robb has expressed sympathy with our cause, but nothing with regard to commitment on van Hollen's part. Mostly, a wait and see type of attitude.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-18-09 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
44. Recommended earlier because it has been tolling in my mind since the beginning of these gruesome
revelations of overt torture---

but what about the Nuremberg Trials?
but what about the Nuremberg Trials?

Don't they study those in school anymore? Doesn't the movie roll around on the classic channels?

Perhaps if subsequent violations of the Geneva Conventions had been prosecuted more vigorously, or the ethics of warfare didn't permit deliberate destabilization campaigns, and the training of ruthless enemy combatants on our soil had been outlawed -- military campaigns in support of business objectives--

that's no definition of a free market I can see-- one that relies on our military to engineer local conditions in their supply source countries-- that's not free; it has been far to expensive.

I do so look forward to a much broader and logical definition of our national security. Funds should be rapidly redirected to public health,energy source decentralization and mass transit networks nationwide.

So, yes indeed, I just couldn't understand how things could get past the release of those first Abu Ghraib photos-- Hello, Folks-- what about those Nuremberg Trials? The fact that the Cheeneey gang are not in prison with Bernie Madoff is strong pevidence that we have a tightly controlled mass media in the USA, giving far too much air time to the right wing to distort and attempt to defend its unsustainable practices.

Their brutal warfare and robber baron capitalism is outdated and obstructive in these environmentally challenged times. A profound waste of resources. The costs of military or police bullying to sustain those cheap wages for outsourced manufacturing should be figured into the price of the goods shipped back to us. Costs a lot in cash and hope.

The expensive, brutal capitalism has got to go. Any business that needs expensive overt and covert military campaigns in foreign countries to engineer its success is not operating under a free market system. It is vamipiric-- sucking the life out of others to feed us ghouls.

I'd love to see a much freer market-- not dominated by military might, but negotiated through trade treaties with whatever forms of government other nations chose to have. Yes, strategic raw materials would cost a great deal more.

But wouldn't it be interesting to see how things might shift in a market free from militaristic bullying? We might even want to preferentially purchase material from companies who treat their workers best.

So how about those Nuremberg Trials-- wasn't there a refrain?-- Nevermore ?

And has that now become-- Good Morning Heartache, here we are again?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
45. Thank you for the reminder and the link to Justice, Time for change. I just penned an
email to DOJ. Senators and Congresscritter to follow.

Too late to rec, but here's a kick for justice.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
46. Thank you agaim foryour ability to put "what should be obvious but is always hidden"
by the Korporatist media out in the open, with a well written and documented reality check.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-19-09 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
47. "He who does not punish evil commands it to be done"
Leonardo DaVinci.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-20-09 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
51. kick
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