Breaking News: Three People Shot in Office Shooting 5 Miles North of me ...

[TahitiNut]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=1301+W+Long+Lake+Rd,+Troy,+Oakland,+Michigan+48098,+United+States&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&lr=lang_en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=85.736132,110.917969&z=17&ll=42.588936,-83.174787&spn=0.005111,0.00677&t=h&om=1

Troy Police SWAT team has arrived. Report of worker fired last week now holding hostages at accounting firm after shooting three former co-workers.

(Edit: Fixed link ... relevant building is the T-shaped one below and to the left of the arrow.)

[hlthe2b]

1. Doesn't take a prophet to predict more of this... sadly

Given the state of affairs in this RW-dominated society and total lack of respect for employees among the corporatists.... Tragedy all around...

[maggiegault]

5. True, but I feel for the families of those he victimized

Those workers did nothing to him personally. What about their families, their lives?

I agree with you about how workers are treated, but violence is never the answer.

[hlthe2b]

6. Where in my post, did I justify the action?

Give me a break.... Where, pray tell, did I say anything about CONDONING the action?

:eyes:

[maggiegault]

13. No, YOU give ME a break.

I never said that you did. Projection, much?

Jesus Christ.

Violence is never the answer. But you be sure to take the random murders of three innocent people by a madman and make it All. About. You.

[TahitiNut]

14. "Those workers did nothing to him personally"???

How do you know this? Do you work there? Do you know all the people working there personally? Isn't it possible that there was some back-stabbing intra-office 'politics"?? Isn't it possible that there was an atmosphere of long-fermenting hostilities in that office?

While I certainly agree that "going postal" isn't justified, there's a HUGE difference between saying that such behavior is understandable and such behavior is justifiable. A failure to distinguish between the two will condemn us to seeing endless repeats of such scenarios. CLEARLY, the "take no prisoners" intra-personal hostilities in workplaces today are getting worse ... at least from what I've seen over the last 45 years of my own observations.

People need alternatives ... alternatives in gaining a redress for workplace grievances and alternatives in gaining productive employment. We have employers who are increasingly relying on the whip rather than the carrot ... and when people are whipped they tend to react violently.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hlthe2b]

21. From the tone of your post...

I'm guessing you really DO know more about the issue of "melt down...."


Noting you are fairly new to DU, I would normally welcome you, but it appears you may not wish to be associated with the "YOU PEOPLE" of DU. Nonetheless, I hope you stay long enough to expand your mindset...

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[havocmom]

37. Accusing others of taking it as all about them?

:wtf:

Where do you get off with snide remarks to DUers about playing with their handguns and shooting the next person who wrongs them 'like a good little lunatic'?

Pot calling kettle names.

Anybody ever teach you the old trick about honey v vinegar? Seems like perhaps that lesson went unlearned.

Hope tomorrow goes better for you around here, otherwise, you will be lonely and on a lot of ignore lists.

edit: typo

[KittyWampus]

46. Where does the other DU'er get off being a jerk for no reason. And then BLAME the victim.

Unbelievable.

[havocmom]

53. Wow

And buh bye

[KittyWampus]

45. "being fairly new to DU". I've been here since almost the beginning and fucking HATE

when others bother to mention how long someone else has or has not.

:puke:

That poster said nothing untoward and I don't give a hoot why YOU overreacted.

Why not admit you overreacted and apologise. That's what grown ups do.

[TahitiNut]

24. Wow! Project much? Have problems reading?

The wildly immoderate and disproportional tone of your post seems to indicate a very short fuse - and lots of anger. It's probably a Good Thing you (apparently) don't own guns.

:shrug:

[havocmom]

38. Overly aggressive poster sorta makes hlthe2b's point ; ^ )

Come, share the joy of irony with an old woman :toast:

[TahitiNut]

42. I'm with you, m'luv!

:hug: :toast:

Who says irony is dead?

While Gandhi said "we must be the change we wish to see in the world" there are too many who apparently try to "be the problem they say they hate to see in the world."
:evilgrin:

[KittyWampus]

48. You are the one who also overreacted to another DU'er. But go ahead and pat yourself on the båck

You want change than look in a freaking mirror.

You owe that other DU'er an apology.

[distantearlywarning]

50. Actually, they both overreacted.

But the newer poster overreacted A LOT.

In Tahiti's shoes, I probably would be pretty offended now too, because the other poster is really going off the deep end (see farther down this thread). And I don't think she owes the other person an apology, but might want to think more carefully next time before she posts. Just my opinion.

On edit: sorry, on a re-read, it was hlt2b who overreacted to start with. Tahiti didn't do anything except respond to the newer poster's overreaction.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[havocmom]

52. LOL

Ah, I don't suggest ya put that to a vote. ;)

[Strawman]

22. I think the right word is "predictable."

I think it is, sadly, predictable. I wouldn't say "understandable." But in a harsh economy where there people are constantly rubbing up against feelings of hopelessness, I'm not shocked when a borderline psychotic individual snaps like this.

I've seen evidence of correlations between unemployment rates and suicide rates and I would hypothesize a similar association between that and workplace violence. I might not be able to prove it, but it's a reasonable hypothesis. I'm surprised we don't see more of it around here to be honest.

[malaise]

2. On CNN now n/t

[Tyler Durden]

3. Story just ran on NPR...Didn't hear the details.

I'll let you know if I hear anything.

[madokie]

4. The fault lies with the system that takes away hope such as in bush* world

[Strawman]

7. Right up the road from my office

They just carried three people out of the building and they think the suspect has fled.

[maxsolomon]

8. Factual Observations:

Firearms were used to commit a crime.

Perpetrator was not a member of a Well-Regulated Militia.

[TahitiNut]

9. You know the perpetrator?

Perhaps you should let the police know. :shrug:

[maxsolomon]

30. Since there are no Well-Regulated Militias

it follows.

[distantearlywarning]

12. What would you say if

the headline read, "Perpetrator stabbed 3 co-workers to death with a table knife"?

Just curious...

[maxsolomon]

31. What would you say if my aunt had Balls?

Just curious.

It didn't. They didn't.

[distantearlywarning]

41. Well, I don't know anything about your aunt...

But I hope your uncle doesn't mind.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Since you seem to be having trouble formulating a real response, let me help you with your answer to my question:

"A table knife was used in the commission of a crime."

(Subtext: This incident can be advantageous to me on the internet message board I frequent, because I can use it to subtly insert my own personal beliefs about the evil nature of table knives into the conversation. In fact, with the right "spin", I can even make it sound like a table knife committed this heinous crime all on its own, without the help of any "crazy" wielder. I hope that this will convince all of the pro-table knife assholes out there that I am right in my assertion that table knives are evil, evil, evil, and should be banned forever and ever, AMEN! (That goes for forks too, and possibly chopsticks.)"

[havocmom]

43. that's a gem. Please consider posting to your journal so we can refer others to it

A keeper, it is! :thumbsup:

[distantearlywarning]

49. I don't have a journal.

But thanks! I'm glad I amused somebody this afternoon (it probably won't be the OP, when he/she comes back to read this)! :-)

[maxsolomon]

64. oh i'm amused

in fact, you're SO funny, and you're viewpoint so cogent, you've changed my opinion about gun access for insane americans!

[distantearlywarning]

66. Glad to hear that you're on board!

There's nothing I feel more strongly about than making sure that disgruntled employees and other mentally unstable individuals are able to get the firearms they need. Now...how do you feel about giving out free assault rifles at elementary schools?

Ok, just kidding.

In case you didn't notice, the above is :sarcasm: Nobody except you said anything about promoting gun access for insane Americans. Actually, I believe we were discussing the oft-quoted mantra that 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people'. I used humor and an analogy to provide you with an argument about that idea. Predictably, you didn't find that amusing, but you also couldn't think of a good response. So instead you replied with a post implying that I wanted to provide firearms to the mentally ill, and suggested that I don't think clearly (but without describing HOW I don't think clearly). Nice red herring, but sorry, no prize. So, let's start over: why don't we ban the manufacture, sale, and possession of table knives, forks, and chopsticks?

[maxsolomon]

67. ok lets ban it

welcome to ignore

[piedmont]

68. That's really all you've got in response?

[distantearlywarning]

69. My first ignore.

It's a milestone, because I've been here 3 years, and haven't managed to piss anybody off that much until now. Now I feel like I've truly arrived at DU. (I'm totally serious, by the way, not sarcastic.) If you're still reading this, thanks!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

73. I'd call her your Uncle

:evilgrin:

[FyurFly]

29. Sorry that's only half the 2A

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The second half is what guarantees our rights as INDIVIDUALS to keep and bear arms.

[maxsolomon]

34. Its just the INCONVENIENT half, isn't it?

its the REASON why INDIVIDUALS get to keep arms.

lets organize all these crazies with guns into crazies-with-guns militias, so they're trained to do the suicide part BEFORE they do the homicide part.

[havocmom]

44. OK how many injuries & deaths

from cars? Swimming pools? Semi-automatic fists fueled by booze?

Sorry, but if you insist on using straw-man platitudes, you get them back.

Oh, and there is NO guarantee of any right to drive.

[maxsolomon]

63. i didn't make one comment about the legality of handguns in my OP

i stated 2 facts: gun used, not in a well-regulated militia.

if you know the statistics on those 3 items, 2 of which are not primarily intended to inflict bodily harm, i would like to know.

[havocmom]

75. Just curious if your passion to protect people included exercises against real big killers

Guess not.

Tells me a lot about motives.

[benEzra]

76. Alcohol, 100,000/yr; fists/feet, 1000/yr; all rifles combined, 400/yr.

Which is why it's SO DAMN IMPORTANT to outlaw rifles with handgrips that stick out... :eyes:

[Irreverend IX]

77. Do you know what the militia is?

The United States Code defines it as all males aged 17-45.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

Hopefully it will be updated at some point to include women as well.

Also, do you know what the term "well-regulated" meant in the 18th century when the BoR was written? It meant well-trained and competent. So the 2nd Amendment's meaning is that the people should have the right to bear arms so members of the militia (most adult males) will known how to use them effectively.

[NickB79]

56. He wasn't? According to Title 10 of the US code he was

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

"§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

That doesn't absolve him of his crimes, obviously.

[maxsolomon]

65. now THAT'S information i can use

thanks, nickb.

an "unorganized militia" = a "well-regulated militia".

and, apparently, if a woman isn't in the National Guard, she can't be in a militia.

[noonwitch]

10. We get too many of these cases in Metro Detroit

We had two postal shootings a while back (Dearborn and Royal Oak), there was the guy at the Ford plant in Wixom, the guy at Johnson Controls in Plymouth, the guy who killed a bunch of people (including one of my coworkers) at his shrink's office and who knows how many other cases like this over the past 15-20 years. Although the one with the shrink's office was one of a series of shootings, nationwide, that started off with Columbine. That was an ugly, bloody summer, with incident after incident.

Stay in for lunch today is my advice.

[TahitiNut]

19. The predations on working people in this area are among the worst in the nation, imho.

It's really quite noteworthy from my perspective after being fairly familiar with a number of job markets across the country.

[Strawman]

11. Just looked out my window

I can see the choppers hovering up the street. Crazy.

[maggiegault]

16. The SWAT Team Must Be Out There...Are There Hostages?

They are saying on the "breaking news" here in Phoenix that there may be hostages.

[Strawman]

17. I think they're saying he has fled

And police were letting people leave the building. Unless he took hostages with him I don't think so, but the details I have are still kinda sketchy. I think they are news helicopters

[TahitiNut]

32. Apparently he's been spotted on northbound I-75 at M-81 (near Saginaw)

They're talking about putting "stop strips" on the road.

[cal04]

15. 3 shot in Detroit-area office building

A gunman shot three people at a suburban Detroit office building Monday morning, and officers were searching for the shooter, police said.

The victims' conditions weren't immediately known, said Troy police Lt. Gerry Scherlinck. A spokeswoman for Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak said the three victims were taken to the hospital but could not provide more details.

Witnesses told Detroit broadcast stations that the shooter was a former employee of an accounting firm inside the building.

The 170,000-square-foot building houses a number of businesses, including law offices and the accounting firm where the shooting was believed to have occurred. Police at first told workers to stay in their offices but a short time later evacuated the building

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070409/ap_on_re_us/office_shooting

[TahitiNut]

18. Suspect: Anthony Lacalamita ... 39 years old, 5'8" tall 180 lbs..

"Police are looking for" him. Apparently driving a 2007 silver Ford Fusion.

[Strawman]

23. One person has been killed, two being treated

[maggiegault]

26. They are saying on the news here that he was fired for "misappropriating" funds

And that there had been a lengthy investigation beforehand, of which he was apparently part.

Now, you must remember, in times like this, specualtion is rampant, but, if it is true...

...in other words, he was fired for cause, not because of any "office politics."

I cannot feel much compassion for someone who ends a human life for their own selfish agenda. HE TOOK A HUMAN LIFE. No amount of "office politics" or "corporate bullshit" justifies that. EVER.

Those poor families.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Strawman]

35. Nobody on this thread thinks that

When something like this happens, people speculate. They attempt to understand why something like this happens. Perhaps that speculation is premature, it could be a termination rather than a layoff as you point out. But here we have this horrible situation that we're attempting to think through and understand in real time. There's a distinction between attempting to understand why and justifying something.

If you lived here, maybe you'd have a sense of the economic desperation that informs TahitiNut's explanation and my belief that an increase in these types of incidents is probably statistically predictable. It's perfectly reasonable speculation. It might or might not be correct in this instance. But nobody is offering that as a "justification" or sympathizing with the killer.

[TahitiNut]

36. Well-said.

:thumbsup:

[maggiegault]

40. BANGING HEAD AGAINST THE KEYBOARD

I AGREE WITH YOU.

I DO understand why people snap. I am writing a book about the Columbine slayings, for Christ's sake.

But, of course, you didn't know that. And really, why would you?

I heard...and still hear... a whole lot of sympathy for the shooter here, and nary a mention of the victims, especially by those who apparently have to make it All About Them, and ALL ABOUT THEIR OWN VIEWPOINT.

I don't care if his actions are understandable, or justifiable, or whatever...violence is never the answer to any situation. Making excuses for violence is just lame. People have terrible situations with which they are faced every single day and they don't "solve" their problems with a shotgun.

No one has the right to deprive anyone of their life, no matter how shitty their situation may be, no matter how tragic their history.

And as for economic desperation, I live in Phoenix. Do your homework and then come back and tell me if you can lecture me about economic desperation in this Land Of Haves And Have Nots. If you cannot get the information, we'll drive from Scottsdale all the way down into the barrio sometime, and you tell me about economic desperation and terrible living and working conditions.

You may not hear sympathy. I do. Killers like this do not deserve an ounce of sympathy. You take a life, all bets are off. You can feel sorry for their circumstances, feel sorry for their histories. But feel sorry for them? Never. Getting a gun is never the option you go for. Getting a gun never solves a problem. Instead, we have one person lying dead in his office building for the crime of getting up on a Monday morning and going to work.

Then again, I guess I should consider the source, taking my well-known bipolar disorder (I have written about it at length, many times, on this site and elsewhere) and using it against me in a particularly cruel way. Voices in my head, indeed. Tell me, do you make fun of all disabled people, or just the mentally ill? Because I know some homeless guys in downtown Phoenix who really DO hear voices in their head, and they actually talk to them. Could be rollicking good fun for you, that's a bona fide offer.

[distantearlywarning]

47. Um, wow.

No offense, but this seems like just a bit of overreaction here. I haven't read any post yet on this thread (except for possibly this one - how ironic...) that seems to be all about the poster. And I don't see anyone expressing excessive sympathy for the shooter. I think it's possible to think a crime is wrong and still have some understanding about social factors that contributed to its commission without being a horrible, bad victim-basher or whatever.

Anyway, it's not worth getting this riled up about, if you ask me - it's not personal or about you, it's just people talking. And I seriously doubt that any of the above posters even knew you had bipolar disorder. It's not a conspiracy to insult you personally or cause great harm in the world - it's just another dumb internet discussion. Simmer down a little, before yet another massive flame war erupts.

[maggiegault]

55. Um, nothing. It was a callous and horrible comment about mental illness.

I don't have a problem with discussion when it doesn't involve hitting below the belt. This all started when I opined that violence is never the answer. Nothing more, nothing less.

Disgusting, and I have an absolute right to get DAMN angry when someone makes some rotten comment about mental illness. It is as ignorant as it is callous.

You know, because it's FUNNY to make fun of those who suffer from disabilities. I deserve an apology here for being subjected to a mean-spirited stereotype.

[blonndee]

59. A point of order: above you objected to someone writing "going off the deep end"

and here you write:

"I have an absolute right to get DAMN angry when someone makes some rotten comment about mental illness. It is as ignorant as it is callous.

You know, because it's FUNNY to make fun of those who suffer from disabilities. I deserve an apology here for being subjected to a mean-spirited stereotype."

But in another post you wrote: "Making excuses for violence is just lame."

Just thought I would point out that you did the same thing to which you're objecting so strenuously.

[maggiegault]

71. That Is So Assinine, It Merits No Further Comment, Or Even Keyboard Effort

I mean, are you serious with that?

I guess if that makes your prejudices against the disabled more palatable to you, so be it, and good luck with that attitude.

This has been VERY enlightening, all of this. So...you do think that violence against innocent people is justified?

[blonndee]

72. LOL so it's okay when YOU insult disabled people, so long as you're not among them?

And where you got the idea that I've ever said anything remotely predjudiced against the disabled, I don't know. Unless you pulled it out of your own ass, like most of the other tripe you've been spouting all over this thread. I'm not the one who used the word "lame" as a pejorative, now am I? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[maggiegault]

74. If You Say So. There. Feel better?

It's obvious that you need to win here, so I'll give you that.

You're right. You're entirely right. Every single thing that I have been saying on this thread is "tripe," you know, like "violence is never the answer" and "I feel so bad for the families."

But no. You're right. You win.

Okay?

[havocmom]

51. Understand and discussing the FACT that in bad times, more bad shit goes down is not sympathy

for shooters.

It is a FACT that there was more violence when Bush 41 was in the Oval Office than when Clinton got settled in and the economy improved. It is PREDICTABLE that violence would increase with bush 43 gets in and his people set the stage for economic disasters for the average citizen.

It is likely that, in a time when it seems money matters more than lives, and people see the guys at the top helping steal BILLIONS, that some folks might decide they can get their piece of the cake too.

But unlike the guys at the top, Joe Blow generally gets caught. Sometimes a fight ensues.

Then there is the problem of untreated mental illness added to the societal and economic ills.


Addressing these real world situations, cause and effect, is NOT the same as having sympathy for killers. :eyes:

Sometimes, it is best to hide a thread which upsets one to a sever degree.

[Strawman]

54. I'm sorry if the tone of my last post seemed hostile or lecturing

I do not presume to know anything about the area you come from. I can assure you that laughing at the the mentally ill would not be my idea of a good time. Also, I don't know you and I didn't know anything about your previous posts on bipolar disorder. And I don't think I made any references to your mental condition in any of my posts, although I did see some up thread by other posters about "anger management." That wasn't me. I entered the fray with the intention to try to facilitate some kind of understanding. It appears that I have failed miserably. I have no desire to gang up on you or to keep a flamewar going over the interpretation of an event that I think we mostly agree on. If my tone was hostile, I apologize.

And for the record, for whatever it's worth, as far as my emotional reaction to this incident, I personally have no sympathy for the perp here. I am opposed to the death penalty, but I could probably accept the moral proposition that this individual who has taken a life and injured two others so selfishly does not deserve to live.

Peace.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

70. Will you be doing a book tour? n/t

MKJ

[Strawman]

33. They've located his vehicle around I-75 Saginaw

and believe they are going to have him in custody shortly.

[davsand]

39. My heart goes out to everyone impacted by this.

This entire community will be deeply impacted, I am sure. I am sorry to hear of it, and I do hope there is no further loss of life.

Too much sadness.


Laura

[maggiegault]

58. I'm Actually Surprised That The Shooter Is Still Alive

Usually situations like this one compound tragedy with more tragedy by the shooter committing suicide.

What level of desperation and sadness would cause someone to think that grabbing a gun is the answer to his or her problems?

[davsand]

62. There is not rational behavior at work, I don't think.

I think we all look at this kind of stuff with eyes that do not and cannot see it the same way the shooters do. I have no doubt there is some sort of pathology at work for these folks and to me that is just one more aspect of the tragedy.

Maybe if somebody HAD recognized it sooner it could have been headed off. Maybe if we did a better job of looking out for each other or looking out for our employees it could have been headed off before it got to this point--we'll never know.

We live in a world where you can only take action AFTER the fact, rather than before. If I'm being straight up about it--I have NO idea how we can change that either. If we are to protect individual liberties and freedoms how do we stop somebody from doing something they MIGHT do?? At what point can or should somebody step in prior to the day when they walk in with a gun?

Too much sadness.


Laura

[ellie]

60. I used to

work right around the corner from there. Terrible.