Pop star Kim used to be Tim

[ThirdWorldJohn]

MEET the latest pop sensation. At 16 years old, with blonde good looks and a wholesome appeal, Kim Petras is set to be a superstar.

But this is no ordinary girl - Kim was actually born TIM.

<snip>

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/woman/2528710/Pop-star-Kim-Petras-had-a-sex-change-at-the-age-of-16.html

[Colobo]

1. She's beautiful.

I consider transgendered people to belong to the sex they feel they belong to, and I gotta say there are quite a few beautiful TG females out there, including this girl.

Good luck with her career.

[dem629]

15. lol

Ehh, not really.

[lies and propaganda]

85. FAIL

unless t were a dick challenge, in which you took top honors

[xchrom]

2. recommend -- you go girl. nt

[FarPoint]

3. I'm glad that thing were worked out for her....

She is a beautiful young lady.

[notadmblnd]

4. wishing her all the success in the world.

[Orrex]

5. Can't say that I'm in love with the earrings, but good for her!

I can't imagine the courage that it takes to undergo the surgery in the first place, let alone putting yourself in the public eye as she's done!

Best of luck to her!

[tavalon]

94. Yeah, those earrings are wearing her!

She's clearly a very strong young woman. So much determination at such a young age! Wow!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. Wanna see bigots throw a hissy fit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kim_Petras

All about a pronoun. Wow.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

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[girl gone mad]

8. What a kook.

I'm guessing she gives the pronoun nazi a boner and he's trying to compensate.

My uncle had two X chromosomes and he was extremely masculine, 6'4", played football in college and even some professional baseball. He was infertile, but always dated the most beautiful women. According to the pronoun psycho, my uncle was a female. I'm guessing that this person would never have said so to my uncle's face.

[Posteritatis]

9. Wikipedia's consistently ridiculous about anyone transgendered (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

12. Wikipedia seems to be maintaining good sense in this case, it's the trolls who are the problem. -nt

[Jim Lane]

69. Wikipedia policy is to refer to transgendered people with the appropriate pronoun

Here's the Wikipedia policy, which I think is correct:

A transgender, transsexual or genderqueer person's latest preference of name and pronoun should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (e.g., she fathered her first child). (from )

In a volunteer project with millions of articles and no centralized Editorial Board, I'm sure that transphobic editors sometimes violate that policy and don't get corrected. Overall, though, I think the policy is usually followed.

What's your basis for accusing Wikipedia of being "consistently ridiculous about anyone transgendered"?

[Posteritatis]

83. Wikipedia's policies are often more honoured in breach than observance

Quoting policies is all well and good, but any article about a transgendered person I've seen has had transphobic editors all over it, or trying to be all over it.

If the policy was all that was necessary then every other article on any given topic wouldn't be protected, would it?

[Jim Lane]

93. You're right that policy is secondary. Wikipedia's primary line of defense is....

"Given enough eyeballs, all errors are shallow."

The presence of transphobic editors is no bar to creating a good article as long as there are other editors who'll fix the article.

Wikipedians accept that, sometimes, creating and maintaining the article will be more work than it ought to be, because of the people trying to be all over it -- the transphobics or the rabid anti-Communists or the homeopaths or whoever. Nevertheless, to say that some editors try to introduce a bias, and thereby make more work for the other editors, is a far cry from saying that the resulting articles are consistently ridiculous.

For a bio of someone who's prominent to computer-using Westerners, there will usually be enough editors involved to ensure that policies are largely followed. That applies even to a transperson if the person is prominent, including a pop-culture personality like Kim Petras. By contrast, Wikipedia's biggest problems are with articles about subjects that don't get a lot of attention from editors. An article about, say, an opposition leader in a third-world country might be edited extensively by no one except an ardent supporter or opponent.

[scheming daemons]

10. Great for her...

...

Nevermind... read the article.

[LisaL]

11. She is in Germany.

[BlooInBloo]

13. Rawr.

(except for the 16 yo part, that is)

[Skittles]

14. she's lovely

[Starry Messenger]

16. Good for her!

Her family sounds really great too.

[Sebastian Doyle]

17. Damn, the mods did surgery with a chainsaw on this thread.

That was some of my best freep bashing too. :evilfrown:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sebastian Doyle]

19. What exactly do you think is going to happen?

Do you think Kim is going to reach the age of 18 and magically turn into a boy? When did you know what YOUR gender was? And did that change when you reached some fucking arbitrary age?

[zagging]

23. I don't have a clue what was going to happen

Neither do you or anyone else in the big wide universe.

[Mrs. Overall]

31. Why are you so upset about this? It was an unusual situation--she was very mature

and this was a well thought out decision. She was 16 when she had the surgery, only two years shy of being 18.

It's not like there's an epidemic of young teens opting for this surgery (or being forced into it, as you seem to imply).

How does this effect you? Why the vehemence?

[noamnety]

104. TOMBSTONED

Thank you mods.

[Posteritatis]

21. News flash: people occasionally challenge other peoples' positions on public message boards. (nt)

[zagging]

27. I get it

But about a dozen of my posts were deleted for challenging the effluvium. I was wondering why.

[Bjorn Against]

29. Maybe it is because the rules of this site prohibit bigoted remarks

[zagging]

I haven't made a single bigoted remark

I don't have a problem with the kid. I have a problem with the authority.

[Starry Messenger]

34. Oh yes "cutting off the kid's wang" was so erudite.

Not that you care, but this medical intervention is very necessary for her well-being.

[zagging]

45. I didn't know I had to be erudite

In effect, that's what they did.

[Bjorn Against]

22. So you believe helping transgendered teens should be a criminal act

This wasn't a decision they made over night, it was a long and no doubt very emotionally difficult decision for them to make. They don't need people like you pushing your "morals" on them because they already have a lot more love and compassion for this girl than you ever will.

[zagging]

25. It's only a moral position

insofar as incompetents are allow to make medical decisions for 16 years olds. And if it was such a long drawn out process, they probably knew a few years ago what they had planned for the kid.

[Bjorn Against]

28. Her parents are not "incompetent", but you clearly know nothing about this issue

You can not just walk into the doctors office and get a sex change the next day, it is a process that takes a few years to complete and this girl was no doubt receiving counseling that entire time. They put a hell of a lot more thought into this than you did, you simply post transphobic attacks.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Toad]

36. I believe you were asked earlier - when did you know

what gender you were? I'll bet it was well before age 16.

[zagging]

39. I'm not sure

I think fifth grade is when I started to dig chicks.

[Ms. Toad]

46. That's actually a diffferent issue -

although parents often react the same way when their kids are attracted to other kids of the same (rather than opposite) gender.

The issue Kim faced was that her physical body didn't match the knowledge that she has had since she was two (according to the article) that she was a girl. The issue Kim's parents faced was whether to insist that their daughter allow her physically male body to go through puberty (after which point many physical changes - hair growth as an example - are either irreversible or are significantly much harder to reverse) or to support her decision that she wanted to have the surgery before those changes took place.

[zagging]

They supported the decision of a 16 year old

to change sex. That doesn't sound a bit off to you?

[Ms. Toad]

60. Unusual - yes, "Off" no. Most parents don't react that well

Some lock their children in mental institutions that have at times involved electroshock therapy, send them "camps" to straighten them out, insist they go through counseling that is not focused on helping their child sort out and be clear about what is going on - but on emotionally "correcting" their child. If the child survives, not only is her psyche seriously damaged, but her relationship with her parents is also often damaged beyond repair. A lot don't survive the teenage years - although none of my students identified themselves to me as transgendered, I lost a couple of students who identified as gay or lesbian to suicide.

What these parents did was listen to and support their child's knowledge of who she was. The surgery was the final step in a process that started when she was 2 years old. That is 14 years of processing the decision. Since the law was changed to permit her to have the surgery before she reached adulthood it is pretty clear that there was even more forethought in this case than typical since the legislative body would have had to be convinced that it was reasonable to allow the decision to be made before adulthood.

[Th1onein]

95. I think you need to educate yourself on this topic.

I'm not attacking you, and I understand that you feel that you should be able to post your feelings about this issue, but sometimes you also need to get more information before posting.

I'm by no means an expert, but I do understand a few things about this process. There is a gut, visceral reaction to the idea that any part of our body is going to be removed. I think that is what is bothering you. And it's quite normal.

But you need to understand what these people go through. They really do feel that they are born into a wrong-sexed body. When they go through puberty, it is like a horror show to them. And they're the monster.

Gender identity takes place before 3 years of age. Did you know that? So this means that these people are aware that they are in the wrong bodies as toddlers. Combine that with the fact that puberty brings on secondary sexual characteristics that are abhorrent to them (this is to say NOTHING of the social problems they encounter during this time), and that some of these characteristics are permanent (such as facial characteristics) and take a lot of surgery to overcome, and you've got a recipe for disaster if you wait too long for the hormones and sex change.

I hope that, someday, we will use our science to help these people early on. There are studies out there that show that certain structures in these people's brains are different--some males are born with female brain structures, and these males identify as females all of their lives. And vice versa. As abhorrent as it may seem to the rest of us, "cutting off a wang," etc., the longer these people have to stay in a body that is the wrong one, the more damage done to them, both physically and socially.

It's difficult to understand, but try to wrap your mind around it. Not everyone is as fortunate as those of us who consider ourselves "normal."

[LisaL]

49. If the surgery wasn't done before puberty, presumably her voice would

break. In which case her career as a pop singer could have gone down the drain.

[noamnety]

73. This response makes you sound ignorant.

They asked when you knew your own gender, not when you knew if you were straight or gay or when you started to get romantic ideas in your head.

[Maru Kitteh]

100. Sexual orientation and gender identity are separate issues. Did you know you were a boy before you

"dug" chicks? In other words, were you confused about whether you were a boy or a girl up until the time you had your first crush on a girl?

According to the article Kim has never been confused about the fact that she is a girl.


Will you answer or chicken out?


Oh wait. I guess you can't do that, can you?
:rofl:

[Mrs. Overall]

33. Ah, it offends your sense of morality. Got it.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Withywindle]

30. Oh right, the ADULTS "made the decision for them."

That's what you think of parents who are supportive of their TG children? Who probably educated themselves extensively about it? Which is something you clearly have not done. Do you think the parents forced this AGAINST HER WILL? Yeah, right.

[zagging]

35. They passed a law specifically for this kid.

The ADULTS passed a LAW specifically so the ADULTS could let a KID give them the go-ahead.

[Starry Messenger]

38. Oh uh huh.

So I guess we should just wait for all kids to turn 18 until we treat their medical conditions. That makes total sense.

[zagging]

42. What medical condition?

[Starry Messenger]

44. gender identity disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Mental_healthcare

[zagging]

47. interesting

I don't know if the professionals who cut the kid even know what the hell is going on.

"People seeking help from these professionals often end up educating the professional rather than receiving help."

How is a 16 year old supposed to know what to do?

[Starry Messenger]

48. Nice selective reading.

So you admit it's a medical condition, I mean if you read it you see that it's listed in the DSM and everything right? I guess if the 16 year old had cancer she'd know about how that all worked and stuff too. But as you've been amply informed, this is a treatment that is developed with doctors.

[zagging]

50. It's not cancer

[Starry Messenger]

51. weak n/t

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

54. What is it with bigots and reading comprehension?

Too bad medical science hasn't figured that one out yet.

[Bjorn Against]

55. That is one of the lamest strawmen I have ever seen dragged out on this site.

[Starry Messenger]

57. Seriously.

I had the same thought...we need some kind of strawman trophy or something.

[Withywindle]

63. It's got a great big straw dick.

It's a straw fertility cult statue.




(Can't cut it off, but it's OK to set it on fire.)

[Starry Messenger]

80. ^^^^^Thank you Mods!!!!^^^^^

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=202511

[Iggo]

97. He should have zigged.

:P

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

98. Heh. Maybe I should cite Wikipedia trolls more often. It has... desirable effects. -nt

[Starry Messenger]

99. Nice shooting!

:thumbsup:

[Withywindle]

40. And the problem is....

what, exactly? Sounds like that law needed fixing.

If a kid was born with a birth defect that wasn't life-threatening but strongly negatively affected their well-being, would you make them wait until they were 18 to fix it? That's what being born in the wrong kind of body IS, for a trans person.

[zagging]

41. What birth defect?

[Withywindle]

43. I explained it to you already. Read my last post real slow and think about it. n/t

[MadMaddie]

62. It is apparant that Tim exhibited female behaviors at very

young age. Forcing Tim to man up and act like a man when in fact it wasn't possible would have been dangerous to the Tim's state of mind and self worth.

The parents in this case knew that Tim was never going to be Tim. They acted like loving parents and helped Tim become who he was always meant to be.

In America we have far too long allowed the Neo Facists to push each of us into pre-defined catagories. Mother nature is not inhibited by fear or by simple minds. Mother nature is what it is...we see examples every day in the animal kingdom.

Over the last 30 years in the US we could barely talk about science and the human body because of fearful people who are so hung up on their failures and inadequecies we have fallen behind most of the world.

[myrna minx]

77. FIrst of all it would help if you've actually known a transgendered person.

I do. You can tear up an entire box of tissues not understanding, but it doesn't change the act that there are transgendered people out there who can make their own decisions along with their parents. Do you think this is easy? Do you think this is a capricious decision? Tra-la-la I'm going to have gender reassignment surgery after I go shopping? No, it isn't. Especially because there are people out there who have online MELTDOWNS because it, insurance who doesn't cover it and a lifelong stigma attached to it, by those who haven't taken the time, nor care to understand.

[Divine Discontent]

78. no, I believe that you're just ignorant on the subject, let me inform you

when you first sprang wood, you knew what you were, but before that even, you knew what you liked as a little boy - you might have loved cars, sports, playing in trees, fishing, sports cards, comic books, whatev... well, the point is you know what you feel like when you're not even a preteen - you just haven't put it into a box yet, to say this is me. She is 16, that's not a little kid, I'm pretty sure she's glad and happy and we should be for her. It wasn't an easy decision and certainly those around questioned it repeatedly and eventually agreed. You just don't say 'yes' the moment you hear a child say they want a sex change, I'm sure it was a serious discussion, and they came to the one that makes her feel the happiest.

best to you...
DD

[Iggo]

20. Aw. Cute.

I'm human. We judge. (Or maybe it's "I'm American. We judge." Anyway...)

I'll judge her first on how she presents herself.

First off, that's a girl. And so far, that's what I got: "Aw. Cute."

[WCGreen]

24. OMG, did Obama check out her ass....

[wroberts189]

26. fascinating article...

Last October, just days after turning 16, she had a sex change operation to fulfill her dream of becoming a woman.

She is the youngest person in the world ever to have the dramatic surgery.

[Feron]

56. She's beautiful.

Her song "Time" is the best one of the ones available on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRrbxE_b3Cc&feature=channel

[alfredo]

58. Here's a song by her on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASv0QwqtXZY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4fnC09nTeE&feature=related

[hunter]

59. I always knew I was a guy, and at 13 the understanding was very clear.

Lucky me, I was born with guy parts. Some people born with guy parts have always known they were a girl.

This isn't rocket science, it's pretty damned obvious that the sexual identity of humans isn't tightly coupled to the shape of their body or their genetics. Sometimes the two don't match. Big deal. It's a miracle of modern medicine that we can fix that. Better to fix it before all the secondary guy characteristics kick in rather than later.

[johnaries]

61. Wow, Only 16? What kind of a trap is this?

If I admit the truth, that I am sexually atrracted to her, then I am a pedophile. If I lie and say I am not attracted, then I am a homophobe.

I am a prisoner to marketing and air-brushing.

SAVE ME!

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noamnety]

72. I know this will come as a shock

but when photos of women are posted here, nobody is forcing you to announce one way or another if you find them fuckable.

It's okay to see a photo of a girl and not publicly rate them.

[Divine Discontent]

81. no one forced you to announce you're sexually attracted to her, and where are the bashing comments

where others call people a 'homophobe' for not saying she's attractive?

How about instead just saying she's pretty, and if you were age appropriate, you would certainly pursue her? (whatever that age is, I've seen 32 year old men with 16 year olds and no one says a word within the family, that's about the oldest I've seen though).

Adults can find older teens attractive, you just have to respect their not emotionally developed yet and it's hands off, but since she's 16, that's an age where it's acceptable in many countries for an adult who has the parents' approval to date their child.

I wish the girl the best, she won't be a hit here with the kids, but it's nice to see other countries be more accepting.

[ConsAreLiars]

64. surprisingly well written and informed article!

I know The Sun tends toward tabloid sensationalism to get its readers, and thois subject works for them that way, but the article itself should be very helpful reading for most people who know very little about this. It won't cure Howling Monkey Syndrome, but for normal people it should strip away afew of the more common misunderstandings.

I want to mention that one of my kids is TG and so a special thanks to Kim and The Sun for helping others gain a better understanding.

(edit tiny typo)

[Withywindle]

66. And thank you too!

For being supportive of your TG child.

:hug: because of all the Howling Monkey Syndrome in evidence on this very thread. You're awesome and your child is very lucky. I wish the best to both of you.

[ConsAreLiars]

68. This kid went through the gender reassignmnet process while working as a Teaching Assistant in

Grad school and supplementing his fellowship with tutoring work with undergrads. I am in totally in awe. Grad school alone is stressy enough, but to go through all that and maintain a long term relationship with his partner, get married and raise a now 2-year-old while still meeting all the requirements of a PhD program at a very high end university.... Well, that brief history and many others and Kim's story totally contradict the ignorant prejudice that argues that this is only some "news of the weird" thing.

[Withywindle]

71. No "news of the weird" at all, I agree.

I'm cisgendered myself, but I have quite a few TG friends. Most of whom were only able to take hold of their lives -- financially, professionally,romantically, etc.--to the extent needed to heal and become who they are when they were in their 30s and 40s. (And at least one of these is someone I've been friends with for 20 years, and I find the idea that he was ever stuck in a "female" body absolutely unbelievable now, even though that's where he was when we met--he is so, SO male!)

Best wishes to your son. I admire TG people, because they've had to work to understand so much more about gender than those of us who can take it for granted.

[myrna minx]

82. *hugs* to you and your TG child.

:hug: It is a tough road (I have TG friends) but loving parents make all the difference.

[ConsAreLiars]

87. Thanks and *hugs* back at you, but this kid was self-determining from day one.

(As was the other - who took a very different path that some might not admire as much as ewe do.) The fact that we parents never were neurotic fucked-up control freaks or insane fundie haters certainly helped, but some of my early photos document him-then-her grabbing a spoon from mom to self-feed, later getting out of a stroller to then push it and righting it when it tipped over. A very self-determining individual from the start, and because of our own histories as lefties, not that hard to embrace.

As I said. I'm totally in awe of my kid and Kim in the OP because of their ability to make this transition so honestly, openly, competently and even almost easily.

[Iggo]

67. Okay.

Now I've heard a couple of songs (not my kind of music) and I saw tiny pieces of an interview interspersed with explosive graphics (ET).

That right there is a teenage girl.

[Scarsdale Vibe]

70. Her parents should be ashamed to let her make such a life-changing decision at that age

She will never be able to live down the blatant auto-tune usage in her music. For shame.

[Sebastian Doyle]

74. Yeah, The music - especially the auto tune- doesn't do much for me.

One of the songs had a more natural voice though. It was OK for top 40 pop stuff. Not my musical cup of tea, but no worse than anything else on commercial radio. I hope she does well in her musical career, though I imagine the bigots will try to keep her off the radio in the US :evilfrown:

[mitchum]

76. LOL!

nicely done

[BreweryYardRat]

91. Well played. n/t

[Jennicut]

75. She is beautiful. And at 16 you pretty much know if you are meant to be a girl or a boy.

I have two daughters and if they said to me they were meant to be boys...well I wouldn't stand in their way. This girl did not want to develop into a boy during puberty and would have been miserable.

[armyowalgreens]

79. She's hot.

Very hot.

[Solly Mack]

84. K&R

[DrCory]

86. A Simply Gorgeous Young Woman!

I desperately hope she is able to ignore the slings and arrows cast her way.

[cali]

88. what a remarkable kid. good for her, her parents and family and the docs

who helped her. she has a maturity far beyond her years.

[ecstatic]

89. How did her personal business get released?

Isn't the entire point to live life as the new gender without people knowing about the past?

[cali]

92. how on earth is that even possible in this day and age?

and why should she hide her past. furthermore, her surgery doesn't draw some bright line between her being a "boy" and a "girl". She's always identified as a girl.

[Iggo]

96. She's not living life as a new gender.

She's lived as a girl her whole life.

She just recently took care of things surgically, is all.

[BreweryYardRat]

90. She is an EXTREMELY lucky young woman to have such supportive parents.

Her parents ought to get some sort of award for handling this so well -- they not only supported her achieving her own identity, they also got her on the necessary hormones/surgery in time.

And it did need to be done early. Going through puberty with all the male hormones firing would have made her life much more difficult.

I'd much rather have her be a healthy and happy young woman (in both the mental and physical senses of the term) than have her be miserable but physically male. Just look at her expression -- yeah, it's a publicity photo, but she's practically glowing. Nobody looks that happy unless they actually are.

[HamdenRice]

101. She's very beautiful -- Best wishes to her on success nt

[glinda]

102. I hope that she can help people understand..... wishing her lots of success.

[cbdo2007]

103. well I wouldn't exactly call her a "pop star"

considering she's not famous, has no songs on the radio, and apparently is just on youtube with thousands of other hopefulls.