"...we have an illegal hiring problem in this country."

[SHRED]

Like Thom Hartmann says, "We don't have an illegal immigrant problem in this country, we have an illegal hiring problem in this country".

Leniency towards the companies that hire this way will not work, in my opinion.
Here is the slap-on-the-wrist that a fence company got for hiring illegally to build a section of the Mexico border fence.
No prison time and they keep their company.


Oh the irony.

Fence execs sentenced for illegal hiring

By ELLIOT SPAGAT, Associated Press WriterWed Mar 28, 8:29 PM ET

Two executives at a company that once helped build a fence to keep illegal immigrants from crossing the Mexican border were sentenced Wednesday to six months of home confinement for hiring undocumented workers.

Mel Kay, founder, chairman and president of Golden State Fence Co., and manager Michael McLaughlin had pleaded guilty in federal court to knowingly hiring illegal aliens. U.S. District Judge Barry Ted Moskowitz ordered each to serve 1,040 hours of community service and spend three years on probation.

Kay, 64, was fined $200,000 as part of a plea agreement, and McLaughlin agreed to pay $100,000.

Federal prosecutors took the rare step of seeking prison time after the men acknowledged hiring at least 10 illegal immigrants in 2004 and 2005. The charges carried a maximum possible penalty of five years in prison.

However, prosecutors were unable to find a previous case in which an employer had been sent to jail for knowingly hiring illegal immigrants.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070329/ap_on_re_us/immigration_illegal_hiring_2

[BlooInBloo]

1. Which is just a specific example of the more general problem of: business breaking the law....

... Which is arguably the biggest problem in America. Next to a stupid electorate, perhaps.

[grannylib]

2. Dry up the jobs and you dry up 99% of illegal immigration.

HUGH fines and jail sentences for the people who are profiting from cheap labor is the ticket. Early and often. Start filling our prisons with rich white guys and start paying living wages to everybody else, and the crime problem in this country would take a substantial downward turn, I'd bet.

[Bobbieo]

4. That has been the root of the problem since WW2 when

agri-business and ranchers began hiring workers from Mexico. During the war it was a necessity BUT THEN the employers discovered a cheap source of labor. That did it!!!

[barb162]

5. I think if some of the big employers got some really huge fines and

jail sentences, other employers would start taking notice.

[SHRED]

10. And since the number one employer is...

...average joe citizen then maybe they need to get their homes forfeited and some prison time. No more illegal nannies, housekeepers, and yard workers.
Maybe prison time for contractors who hire illegally and their business and equipment forfeited to the government.

I am sure that it would not be long before word would get around.

[barb162]

11. That would be fine with me.

Maybe just a few of these businesses / employers getting nailed in each state would be enough to get fear in these employers. Most of my neighbors (pugs all the way) hire the yard workers.

[NormanYorkstein]

15. there is no bigger hypocrite than a con

- or a lib for that matter - hiring *servants* and refusing to pay legally and above board, SS taxes, etc. I would have no problem with a heavy fine for "average citizens" who exploit illegals.

As for the CEOs, prison would be a fitting punishment.

[mitchtv]

9. you got it Granny

Change that "huge fines" to "confiscatory fines" if you ask me

[markbark]

13. Surely you must be joking....

this is AMERICA... rich white people don't go to prison in America.
(well.... Bernie Ebbers notwithstanding)

:sarcasm:

--MAB

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. speaking of Thom

starting tomorrow Portland gets his National Show live right after his local am show.

6 straight hours of Thom live every morning! :woohoo:

[Bobbieo]

6. The AZ Republic did a front page spread on 'Viewpoint' today

entitled "Blaming The Boss". Two points of view - one from a member of the legislature "Those Who Hire Must Pay". The other from the Greater Phoenix Chamber of Comerce - "Feds Not Arizona Should Reform Law."

[Morgana LaFey]

7. Molly Ivins wrote a really amazing column when this

immigration thing first reared its ugly head a while back, and she pointed out that there is ONE THING that would end all illegal immigration, and that was to enforce laws against hiring illegals. No jobs, no illegal immigrants. It was a brilliant column.

[MazeRat7]

8. Well thats fine if you have money....

So sure.. force employers to only hire documented workers at the minimum wage. I personally think that is exactly what should happen, but then I happen to have money so the increased cost of goods/services and increases in taxes will be "uncomfortable", but manageable.

Unfortunately, there is a really large segment of the population that can barely scrape by at todays prices. When you remove "cheap" labor from the equation, those peeps will need some help.

So, fine.. stump for solving the "employment" problem, but there needs to be some kind of assistance/plan/program in that conversation to help compensate the masses when price increases are passed directly to them in terms of "cost of goods" sold.

MZr7

[Jonathan50]

12. You have it exactly backwards..

When you eliminate the illegals from employment, employers will be forced to raise wages to attract the now smaller workforce.

Driving illegals out will increase wages.

Prices on some items may go up slightly but that will be more than compensated for by the increase in wages.

[ComerPerro]

16. Well, for one, even with no illegals at all, someone will do it for the chump change they pay

and even if they don't, even if they have to offer an extra fifty cents an hour, they will cite "increased labor costs" and raise prices.

When your choices are working for five bucks an hour or no money, you will work for five bucks an hour.

[NormanYorkstein]

17. with no illegals, US citizens can unionize again

The whole purpose on illegals is to bust unions. With a union workers can demand higher wages.

[ComerPerro]

25. right, because there were no scabs back in the days of organized labor

someone will always work for less.

[NormanYorkstein]

27. "back in the days of organized labor"

Of course there were scabs, and many fights over them. Someone WILL always work for less, especially when you allow the bosses to exploit the poor. That's what unions are for.

[ComerPerro]

29. you really believe all this, don't you? Wow. Stunning

[NormanYorkstein]

31. wow, not much of an argument you have there, huh?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NormanYorkstein]

33. strawmen and insults, that's all you got huh?

[ComerPerro]

34. don't want to interrupt your racist fairy tale any further

[NormanYorkstein]

39. again, just name calling

because you don't have an argument. As is typical for your anti-union, anti-worker screed, the best you can do is cry "racist" while you side with the bosses against workers of color. Are you a boss yourself?

[Jonathan50]

20. The minimum wage is being raised.

Citizens have the protection of the government which enforces the minimum wage law.

Raising the minimum wage has been shown to have little to no effect on the number of jobs available.

[ComerPerro]

26. Still, there is someone out there who will do it for less

[Greyhound]

38. No, there isn't that's the point. The only reason there is always "someone who will do it for less"

is that we have an endless supply of workers competing for a limited number of jobs. Eliminating the illegal immigration limits the supply of workers and drives wages up, especially the wages of the less desirable jobs.

Do you remember when idiot McCain said that Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for $50 an hour? Did you read what happened right after that?

There are plenty of people that will pick lettuce, clean houses and hotel rooms, do yard-work, be nannies, etc. if they can make a living doing it. Very few people actually want to get a handout that barely lets them exist, they would much prefer the dignity of working for their living.

[IChing]

19. You believe that employers will be forced to raise wages

and Driving illegals out will increase wages.

I like how you battle class warfare.

[IChing]

21. soon to be illustrated like this

[Jonathan50]

23. The law of supply and demand is what drives wages.

If the supply of labor decreases and the demand continues then the price of labor increases.

[IChing]

24. Simplistic and is merely a Ricardian general equilibrium system

which leaves the concept of Value out of your equation in which
the society itself is that limits, shapes, and sets the context for
the operations of individuals and markets.

[Jonathan50]

37. Perhaps you could expain further in terms the layman can understand?

[Jonathan50]

30. Nobody is "driving illegals out"

They can still stay, they just can't work.

I am strongly in favor of the US helping and pressuring Mexico to improve conditions for its citizens so that they will not be desperate enough to come the US illegally in search of jobs.

[MazeRat7]

22. No employers want margins to remain constant...

So if you increase OPEX and hold prices, you decrease margin. BUT if you increase OPEX and increase prices, margins remain constant.
Now which do you think is going to happen ? Duh. :think:

No its not backwards, increased pay (OPEX) will increase prices. Which like I said.. is fine be me. I'm willing to pay the extra $$$ to insure every worker has a fair wage, but I doubt everyone is.

MZr7

[Jonathan50]

40. Wages are only a minor portion of the cost of producing most goods.

Certainly there are some exceptions but not many of those exceptions use illegal labor anyway.

I'm familiar with the construction business and there a lot of the use of illegal labor is driven by workmen's comp insurance. If you hire a legal employee you must insure him for workmen's comp, which can be a major portion of your business expenses.

Illegal labor is just fired when they get hurt on the job so you do not need workmen's comp insurance on them. What are they going to do, sue you?

[Greyhound]

35. You've swallowed the lie that's delivered daily by the reich-wing.

Study after study has shown that significantly (as dollars per hour increases, not quarters) increasing wages results in no significant increase in consumer prices because competition simply forces the all the businesses from the supplier through the retailer to accept less profit. Of course Wall Street hates this, but they've had it way too good for far too long, time for them to adjust their lifestyles for a change.

It is also a boon to the really small businesses (the true entrepreneurs) that have to compete with the larger businesses that squeeze them through their suppliers, advertising, etc.

The stock market is not the economy, it is simply a low-risk casino for rich people and a cash cow for the financial industry.

[ComerPerro]

14. I personally find it hilarious that the company contracted to build the fence hired illegals

shows how empty and stupid the whole fence idea was

[ReadTomPaine]

18. No one can "steal" a job - it's a concept without rationality.

A job can only be given to someone by an employer, it cannot be stolen. When a business owner makes a conscious decision to exploit a group of people for cheap labor, those being exploited aren't stealing jobs. They are being selected by employers in lieu of other applicants. To see this any other way places the blame on the victims and not those responsible for the abuse.

As has been mentioned in this thread and elsewhere, we could end serious illegal hiring practices almost overnight if the emphasis were placed on those who did the hiring rather than the people accepting the offer.

[sendero]

28. This is so obvious...

.. it shouldn't have to be said. But in America, if some MSM talking head isn't saying it, it's not true.

The "illegal immigration" problem could be STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS with a few high-profile prosecutions and PRISON TIME for people who hire illegals.

The fact that this simple truth is so studiously avoided by our politicians and media is proof that their handwringing over illegal immigration is nothing more than lip service.

[Greyhound]

36. Exactly, and it doesn't cost anything (in government budget terms).

No walls, no motes, no massive round-ups and deportations, no "border security" or huge prison camps, nothing.