This whole rec/unrec thing both in theory and in practice is fascinating

[PretzelWarrior]

I am already seeing some conventional wisdom bubble to the surface, and it looks like saner minds will prevail on this.

As someone mentioned before, aside from taking note of which ones end up on the greatest page, it could be interesting to see the stats of which ones are active threads.

There is a whole set of conversations about what it is we as a group want to get out of DU and what we individually want to get out of it.

But bottom line is this: People who talk about "being shut down" by this aren't very realistic about what really happens. Recommends only determine if something goes to greatest.

I RARELY go to the greatest page except by accident. It's not like you have to go cross the street and hop on a new computer to get around this site. You just click on another link.

I'll write more about this, but as someone who was frustrated with this site, I see a glimmer of hope.

[xultar]

1. This is the first post today I'm recommending with the word unrecommend in it today.

BRAVO.

[Mojambo]

2. I still think recs and unrecs should be limited.

3 a day or something like that.

[BurtWorm]

3. Nice and thoughtful post, PW.

:toast:

[SoCalDem]

4. I never go to "Greatest" or "Home"

I have a desktop icon that takes me right to "MyDU"..aaah that makes me a narcissist, doesn't it?

[Gregorian]

8. Haha. I love your logic. But now I'm confused.

You obviously are a narcissist, but obviously not an egotist. Which is it? Make up your mind! Freud is waiting.

[TexasObserver]

5. The new system is much more sane and practical.

Some of the most asinine threads get more than 5 recommendations, because it only takes 5 posters to give it that. Just because 5 posters recommend a thread doesn't mean it's worthy of anything.

There are a lot threads started that are simply bad threads, or the topic line doesn't match the content. The Unrecommend feature allows a quick rebuke of such threads or thread starters, and assures that five posters cannot by themselves send something to the greatest page, or suggest that the thread is worthy of reading.

I am amused that people are offended by a system which is widely used on many blogs now. It is embarrassing that a site with the name DEMOCRATIC Underground would have posters openly opposing the use of the Democratic right of VOTING. I applaud the admins for this change. It's badly needed. Now we can vote UP or DOWN on a thread, and we don't have to post on threads to express displeasure at having wasted our time.

[mopinko]

6. there really needed to be more member input

as hard as the mods work, there is only so much they can do within the rules. this spreads the control of the discussions to the members, which is what we are all about.
i love it.

[rrneck]

7. It generates a lot more accurate

numbers regarding what DUers like and dislike. And who.

[zeemike]

9. But you must understand that a R is a reward.

And that reward can be taken away for any reason silly or not.
That puts power in the hands of those that are contentious on any particular issue.
Now the only ones that will be on the greatest page are those who post something no one disagrees with.,,,Homogenized DU

[scheming daemons]

10. Not really.. if 105 people agree, and 100 disagree, it still gets to the greatest page

[zeemike]

14. Have you ever heard of the tyranny of the majority?

If I recommend something it is giving a reward to the poster for making a good post...why should my reward be taken away by someone that may just be feeling in a shitty mood or had some beef with the poster?

[scheming daemons]

17. Conversely.......

I may UNrecommend something to punish the poster for making an idiotic flamebait post... why should my punishment be taken away by someone that may just like flamebaits or has some affinity for the poster?

[zeemike]

18. And you think punishment is what is called for.

Can't tolerate someone talking in a way you think idiotic, so you punish them by taking the reward that another poster gave them because they liked it?
A reward that can be taken away from you by someone that does not like your name or signature line...or for any reason is not a reward.

[scheming daemons]

20. It's not a "reward"... false dichotomy..... it is a "vote"

yay or nay.


Yay, I like the post

Nay, I don't




before... we were only allowed to vote "Yay".


That's not democratic.

[PretzelWarrior]

24. yeah. back then it was either "yay" or "abstain"

this will provide better models of what is truly accepted and what is greatest and what is below par. Also the current format of displaying <0 won't be too humiliating for some to have their post into quadruple digit negative integers. LOLOL.

[zeemike]

25. Well it is not a reward now.

It is a yea or nay thing.
So democracy has come to free speach...only those things that please the majority will be recognized.

but perhaps we should go one step further and if any post received 5 un recommendation is removed from the board...and if they get 5 in a row unrecommended posts they be kicked off the island.

we must make the DU board safe for democracy, and eliminate those that do not agree with the majority.
Perhaps we should have a vote on subject matter also...and make a list of the approved subjects that are allowed...I know I would vote to eliminate any thread about MJ pro or con.
And I would like to vote on who should be toumbstoned...perhaps have an enemy's list that would track all the enemies posts so we could unrecommended them.

It would m make DU fun again.

[PretzelWarrior]

36. nice strawman. no fears. you could post 20 in a row that got net 100 unrecommends

and you'd still be able to post. Doesn't that just burn your britches your Stalinist dystopia won't come to pass here just because of an unrecommend feature?

[zeemike]

38. Wow Stalinist dystopia

I will have to save that one.
I have always wanted a Stalinist dystopia straw man.

[GreenArrow]

29. so what? Just because something is controversial

doesn't negate its utility or value.

[PretzelWarrior]

22. I know what you're saying. But I like the bar being higher.

Like....if someone posts something that person X likes but 50 person Y's don't like.....that can be registered as a group concensus on what is "greatest" and what isn't.

[zeemike]

27. We can make the bar so high that only the elite can jump it.

Then we would have a sanitized and homogenized board...one in which only the ones who post to the majority's own dogmas get recognized.
I feel this is one step toward making this Democratic Above Ground.

[Ms. Toad]

30. So I take it you only read threads which reach the Greatest

list?

If not, it really doesn't impact your experience here at all. Every thread is still available in the forum in which it was originally posted, and its location there is not impacted by its ranking among the Greatest.

Personally, I don't let majority rule determine what I read (and in the instance of the option to recommend only - clique mentality).

[zeemike]

31. I don't think you understand my point.

When someone posts something here that strikes my fancy, whether it is irreverent immoral or fatting, I have two options to reward that poster for his wit or whatever and that is to K&R.
It is a reward for him because it gets him more attention to his point or just makes him feel better about himself...makes no difference to me whether he is an attention whore or not...a reward is a reward.

Now we have the option to take those rewards away if we don't like the topic, the posters name, his avatar or has had an unpleasant encounter with someone posting in the thread that liked what the OP said.
It makes DU safe for quarreling and revenge.

But no I don't pay much attention to how many Rs a post gets and do not frequent the greats page...I too look for intestinal titles.
But the poster does whether he wants to admit it or not....no one is ambivalent to a pat on the back.

[Ms. Toad]

33. Frankly, I've never looked at how many recs

any thread I've started has gotten. I notice whether something I post generates responses. I notice whether it is on the front page of whatever room I post in, but I couldn't tell you how many recs (if any) any thread I've started has ever gotten.

I do notice, however, lots of people who seem to post really stupid or mean posts solely for the purpose of making it to the top of the greatest page - including some which expressly beg for the most recommendations ever.

All that is being "taken away" is the unopposed option of saying something so important/interesting that it should be the first thing that we read on DU. Given the quality of some of those threads, I am glad to be able to finally express a different opinion.

If is is the subtraction that is your issue, beg Skinner to go back to the original implementation in which the raw numbers were posted - that would meet your needs for the poster to see that XXX people actually liked his/her post as well as mine to be able to do something about being greeted on DU with 5 flavors of "Rec this post if you agree that Obama is the (fill in the blank) president ever"

[zeemike]

34. And you find the "Rec this post" offensive?

Why does that bother you?
But i will not beg Skinner or anyone else for anything to make my agenda more favorable than others.
It does not matter to me that much...but making things better does not require everything to be democratic.
If that is what you want why not vote on whether someone should be kicked off the island?...then we could have a board where there was no dissenting opinion and no offensive posts....a lovely place I am sure.

[Ms. Toad]

35. Don't have a clue what you are saying.

I didn't say a word about whether I fond "Rec this post" offensive. I was responding to the concern you expressed that you felt your right to give someone a pat on the back was somehow jeopardized by this new system.

You seemed disturbed by the fact that the recipient of your pat won't be able to see your "pat" because someone else who doesn't think the story that you liked belonged among the greatest current stories on DU and gave it an "unpat."

If that is your issue there is an easy solution - list both total "pats" and total "unpats," rather than the difference between the two - as originally implemented by Skinner.

My concern has to do with the overall impact of the unopposed recommend function. Whether or not a thread ends up in the "greatest" has nothing to do with whether there are dissenting opinions or offensive posts - that is a red herring. All those dissenting opinions and offensive posts will still be there, right where the author of each post put them (unless they are so offensive the mods delete them). The thread, however, just won't be as easily whisked off to the latest and greatest room (or land on my front page) because those who don't think the thread is really all that hot will have a chance to say, "I don't think so."

I'm happy with the system as it has been implemented - it addresses my concern. It could also easily address the concern you expressed - but it sounds as if you would rather complain than suggest anything that actually addresses that concern. Enjoy your whine.

[zeemike]

37. I could suggest something but would not like it.

And that is to get over your need to control others.
So what if an attention whore posts a rec this thread...what is it to you?
Does that post jump off the page and slap you in the face? Does it cause you distress in any way and more importantly why?
And why do you hate it when 5 people like something and it goes to the greatest page? Is that something to you?
Or is it just that you want the power to stop these imagined affronts to you?

Now had some here taken that suggestion we would not have the Un rec and would not be having this disagreement.

[Ms. Toad]

42. you are really imagining feelings and motives

that never would have crossed my mind.

I proposed a solution that addressed what you SAID was your issue, and all you did was whine about things completely unrelated to anything I actually said. Since you appear really not to be paying any attention to anything I have said, have fun continuing to bat at an imaginary adversary. I don't particularly feel like defending things I never said or thought.

[zeemike]

43. Well sorry I can't make you understand my POV

Perhaps we will have better luck next time.

[Control-Z]

11. The thing is,

posts on the greatest page are often overlooked once they get there (at least by me). Unless they are truly compelling posts, once they fall below the fold they stay there for the duration. There is far more exposure on the discussion pages where one can see how active the post really is.

What I would actually like to see changed, or addressed, is the group (and there is a group, but I can't name names) who regularly drop in on every thread they don't like, or on the issues they are republican about, just to crap all over them. These people always specifically, and without fail, show up on women's rights, abortion rights, rape, and abuse threads, and go to town. They shit on anything warm and fuzzy, or that requires compassion. They are not the bleeding heart liberals that I associate with DU, which would be ok if they didn't ridicule and degrade anyone who is.

It is sickening that these guys have fallen through the cracks and continue to have posting privileges. They are so obviously not progressives, or even democrats, but they have learned the language and are masters at getting away with destroying some of the most important threads here on DU.

Would love to see a system that could rid the site of them.

[DCKit]

12. Where do you go? I always hit Greatest first, then Latest.

Oh, and I'm gettin' a kick out of the complainers. However, I do think the mods/admins need to keep an eye of anyone with an out of control unrec urge. They could really clean up the haters and asshats that we've been suffering with for the past two years.

[scubadude]

13. Herd mentality rules! nt

[omega minimo]

15. What you said.

Moo

[WillyT]

21. Moo !!!

Or, Baah...

Whatever...

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Oink. Shit, I mean... Mooo!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

16. I proudly unrecommend this thread

off to the obscurist

[MadHound]

19. I thought I saw a "goodbye cruel chatroom" post of yours the other day,

What, a new feature bring you back into the mix:rofl:

[PretzelWarrior]

23. this isn't a chatroom....but yes. On June 23 I had had it after weeks of negativity

and horrible posts from so many who want to destroy what DU was. On top of that, I was feeling frustrated and discouraged by GOP finding their voice and all that.

Now the Sanford/Palin/Ensign/? things are in full flower, Obama is making a splash across the world stage again, Democrats are working on actual stuff we care about, Franken is seated....and I thought about what I really want to do about this board.

So I thought I'd come back again and try to make it better.

[Deja Q]

26. Nice to know we're mere subjects of an experiment.

[charlie]

28. I commented in this thread

about Japan's wholesale prices, a subject duller than peeling paint:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6030625

I just noticed it was in negative recommend territory. Go figure.

[bbgrunt]

32. I see it as making du more of an echo chamber. It

certainly guarantees that strongly held differences will be whitewashed out of discussion here.

[Odin2005]

39. IMO it keeps flamebait threads, from BOTH sides, off the Greatest Page.

In my experience I don't think it will have the effect of making the Greatest page all uncontroversial fluff simply because supporters of a POV will be more enthusiastic at recommending a thread the critics are at un-recommending them.

[Canuckistanian]

40. It's certainly adds a new dynamic to recommending

And I think some don't like that dynamic. It's threatening to them somehow.

There have been a FEW times that a post has made it to the top that I've HATED. And some that I disagreed with becuase of the sentiment, logic or sensibility of the message. But a popular thread is sometimes hard to criticize.

And all I could do was post my own thread or rec up another dissenters thread.

Now, I know that at least I can make a symbolic protest against a post, even if I can't make a dent in it's popular appeal.

[PretzelWarrior]

44. excellent points. thanks.

I do like that we have a "YAY" or "NAY" position we can take and not merely abstain if we find a post not worthy of our consideration

[hileeopnyn8d]

45. In that respect

maybe (hopefully) it will curb the ridiculous dueling threads, that lacked substance, were usually flamebait, and almost always get locked, but not before they hit the Greatest Page.

I'm not saying you started threads like that, your post just made me think of that situation.