When Partner Abuse Isn't a Bruise But a Pregnant Belly

[ccharles000]

Intimate partner violence doesn't always show up in police photos as swollen bruises. Instead, the evidence might be the victim's pregnant belly.

Janey (not her real name) was 19 when she fell "head over heels" for a guy six years her senior.

He moved in just weeks after their first date, which was before she learned about the cheating. When she confronted him, repeatedly, he raped her, repeatedly. When she told him to move out, he threatened her with more violence. Meanwhile, condoms: not happening. Hormonal birth control like the Pill, she says, made her sick.

"The first time I got pregnant against my will, I had the baby," she says. Along with several STDs. (He'd been her only partner.) After a stint in jail for violating an ex's order of protection, he was back, promising never to hurt her, gushing about family happiness.

The -- yes -- second pregnancy occurred when she'd run out of money for emergency contraception, having purchased it more than 10 times before from her college nurse. He refused to help her pay for an abortion. "He thought another baby would keep me in his life forever," Janey says.

http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/140887/%2527he_thought_a_baby_would_keep_me_in_his_life_forever%2527%253A_when_partner_abuse_isn%2527t_a_bruise_but_a_pregnant_belly/

[Triana]

1. I was JUST reading that. Thanks for posting it!

:hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

2. The MRAs should be along shortly.

:popcorn:

Seriously though, why anyone should be surprised that this happens is beyond me. Anti-choicers are anti-choicers because there's no better way to maintain the patriarchy than to make sure that women are barefoot and pregnant.

[TheDebbieDee]

3. Sorry, but what is an MRA?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Men's Rights Activists. Some Here Are Twisted Enough To Resent The Concept Of Men Having Any Rights.

Ironically, they tend to also be firm women's rights supporters. How odd is that?

[Arkana]

73. Wait...what?

[Hello_Kitty]

8. What OMC said, or Moronic Reactionary Assholes, if you prefer.

:)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Two Big Differences There.

I'm a member of the former while you appear to be guilty of being a member of the latter. We are nothing alike. The poster asked for clarity, yet you now confuse the poster more by offering two completely unrelated definitions. Pick one. :hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

25. You think that I oppose men having any rights.

Hence, you are a moron.

[Odin2005]

19. Yep, the idiots who think they should be given a say in a woman's reproductive choices. Freaks.

I ran into one on another message board, the guy was a fucking ANARCHIST of all people, and he ranted and raved about how guys shouldn't have to pay child support if they don't want the child but the woman refuses to have an abortion. Absolute misogynistic fuckwit!!!

[Hello_Kitty]

26. It's very common. So-called libertarians and similar types are the biggest misogynists around.

Libertarian males are particularly noxious. Their concept of liberty extends only to the rights of white guys to own property. Naturally women and children are part of that property so of course they don't approve of a woman getting rid of a fetus without her owner's permission.

[pipi_k]

45. And judging from one I knew, they also don't approve of

a woman's right NOT to breast feed if she doesn't want to.

This one particular guy believed that all women should breast feed...or at least TRY to...because it's "better for the baby".

any discussions involving a woman's right to choose whether or not to breastfeed...or even TRY it...were met with disdain and high-horse tactics. He had a real high opinion of himself, that's for sure. This guy also described himself as an "intellectual" with a "near genius" IQ, which always sort of made me roll my eyes and laugh. People who really are what they are don't need to advertise it.

ick

spare us all from the smug assholes who think they're God's gifts to the world (and women).

[Hello_Kitty]

68. They read too much Ayn Rand and over-identify with the heroes.

I just want to grab every one of them by the collar, shake them, and scream, "You are NOT John Galt! And he's a FICTIONAL CHARACTER ANYWAY!!!"

[One_Life_To_Give]

90. I would be disappointed if not given any say

Not that I expect any legal standing in such a decision. But not being consulted means there are other serious issues with the relationship.

[Scout]

91. it could also mean that she knows exactly how you feel, and does not want to

do whatever it is you would want her to do.

so why bother getting into a discussion/argument over it? if, ultimately the decision is hers, what is the point?

[One_Life_To_Give]

92. It's about "US"

If she is going to Lye by Ommission, in not telling me. Then where is this relationship going?

[Scout]

101. fine

you want her to carry the pregnancy to term

she does not want to carry the pregnancy to term, for any reason.

now what? you try to badger her to your point of view?

ETA: NO, it really isn't about anyone but the pregnant woman.

[One_Life_To_Give]

108. What else would she lye about?

Loss of Job? Cancer?

Granted if I badgered her into carrying to term there wasn't a relationship worth having in the first place. If she can't tell me straight what is happening and how she feels about something like this and give me the respect of atleast hearing my point of view. Knowing all the while that I will stand beside her regardless. Then I have already wasted far too much time with such an individual.

And I can't imagine the damage that would be done should the Secret come out years later. Or just the effort she might have to make to perpetuate the lye.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Rape is rape. He should be prosecuted, and the allegation proven in court.

Because if the allegations are true, he's going to rape other women.

Until that point, this is just another run of the mill bad relationship with people making shitty choices.

I don't agree that declining to pay for someone else's abortion = abuse.

[Just Saying]

75. Oh, so only YOU get to decide when it's rape?

Sorry, but this OP was about way more than just failing to pay for "someone else's abortion". Did you read the article?

Rape is incredibly difficult to prove particularly when it's done by someone with whom you're in a relationship/married. Not to mention that if this woman was ready/able to involve law enforcement, she'd have been out of there and had him arrested for assault at the very least. Please stop blaming the victim and try to have some compassion for woman trapped in abusive relationships.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. No, only a jury does. n/t

[Just Saying]

110. WRONG!

rape1  /reɪp/ Show Spelled Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap⋅ing.
Use rape in a Sentence
–noun
1.the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3. statutory rape.
4.an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
–verb (used with object)
6.to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.to seize, take, or carry off by force

Hmmmm...the dictionary doesn't say that it's only when a jury or a lumberjack says so. Guess you have no clue!

[tammywammy]

4. Good article, recommended. n/t

[ccharles000]

5. kick

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

6. The Thing Is, For Every Story Like That There's 100 Where The Woman Duped The Man Into Having A

child for the same twisted hope that it would keep them together somehow.

In this case though, since the first pregnancy was due to alleged rape, it would be far worse than the other scenarios.

The second pregnancy is in no way abuse though. A man's refusal to pay for an abortion, regardless of the reasons, does not abuse make.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. But refusing to use condoms when she can't take the pill and doesn't want another baby

Makes him a World Class scumbucket, no?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Nope.

He has that choice same as she does.

I also like how you made up the fact that he refused to use condoms during the second episode. Bravo there!

The second time wasn't rape. She simply got pregnant, wanted an abortion, couldn't afford it, and he chose to not help. He's a scumbucket for sure (for other reasons), but that's still irrelevant as it relates to the context of my post.

[Just Saying]

20. That's unreasonable.

She can't take birth control without being sick so too bad for her? You need to read the whole article and start again.

[LeftyMom]

28. She's not taking responsibility for her own role in not getting pregnant.

I can't use hormonal birth control either (not just because it "makes me sick," I have a strict contraindication due to risk of blood clots) AND I'm allergic to latex and spermicide, so I went on down to the family planning clinic, talked to somebody, and got an IUD.

I don't know if there was an abuse scenario here, an accidental pregnancy when neither partner is doing their due diligence to prevent one isn't abuse, it's an expected outcome of unprotected sex.

[Hello_Kitty]

29. If you "don't know if there's an abuse scenario here" I don't know what to tell you.

Read the article. And if you still don't get it, read it again.

[LeftyMom]

31. Of course I don't know if this was an abuse case, I don't know either of the people involved.

The stated situation doesn't even make sense, so I certainly can't assign too much credibility to the article's claims.

[Hello_Kitty]

34. Yet you make definitive statements about the 'responsibility' of the woman

And you extrapolated your own situation to hers and made assumptions about the options she had available to her. You did all that based on the information (as unverified as it is) in the article so what part of "he raped her repeatedly" is making you hesitant to call it an abuse case? Furthermore, since the article goes on to state that the woman did leave the man and is now raising her children on her own, where do you get off calling her "irresponsible"?

[LeftyMom]

40. Generally, if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she should take measures?

No matter who they guy involved is, she's the one who's going to have to deal with a pregnancy, so that's just commmon sense.

The scenario communicated in the article makes no sense. For example, if this woman can't take hormonal birth control because it makes her ill, how did she take Plan B ten times? That shit will fuck up a person who isn't normally sensitive to the pill. If she had access to a clinic (since one prescribed Plan B ten times) why didn't she pursue another birth control option? If that actually happened (and it makes so little sense I'm not at all sure it did) then yes, just leaving pregnancy to chance in that situation, especially knowing this wasn't a situation to bring kids into, was completely irresponsible.

[Hello_Kitty]

41. But the supposed implausibility of the situation is still no impediment to you making judgments.

And hey, lots of people irresponsibly bring kids into fucked-up situations. That probably describes a good 80% of the kids born in the world today.

[Just Saying]

53. The article states that he raped her - that's abuse.

Just because they're in a relationship, doesn't mean it's not rape. In an abuse situation, the woman often doesn't have the ability to use birth control. Maybe she couldn't afford an IUD since she couldn't afford an abortion. Or maybe there was no way her abusive partner was going to let that happen.

We're debating this, but the article in the OP is long and it gets into a number of different scenerios where abusive partners forced women to get pregnant and then forced them to have the baby...or forced them to abort. It's a control thing and part of the abuse.

[lies and propaganda]

58. a WOMAN is saying this?

Are you fucking kidding me?!

shes not being responsible while BEING RAPED?! what a fucking bitch man! I love the women i rape to try to clean up after me!

absolutely batshit crazy, wrong, beyond fucked up. I hope these words stick with you. ring in your head that you said a victim of rape wasnt playing a responsible role in it. Shame on you.

[Gormy Cuss]

86. Actually, it sounds like she did, as soon as she was free from the abusive situation.

The only basis we have for information is the description of it as an abusive relationship so in the context of that she wasn't in control of the situation. There's far too little information to answer some of your other questions such as why she wasn't able to avoid pregnancy by using an IUD.

[Control-Z]

99. I'm surprised to read this post from you.

We all know that what is good or easy for one woman is not necessarily the same for the next. Because I overcome a problem doesn't ever mean that the next woman can or will. I can only be grateful for myself and offer more understanding of others.

Abuse comes in many forms. Psychological being the most dangerous, imo. The fear that goes with it. The bad decision making. The isolation. The helplessness.

But you know all that. :)

[EndersDame]

35. She can wear a female condom or just get out of the relationship all together

[Hello_Kitty]

37. She did get out of the relationship. eom

[EndersDame]

39. That is good! More women should be aware of how to take charge of their bodies

[Hello_Kitty]

23. No Ace, you ignored the very clear statement that condoms were 'not happening'

"He has that choice same as she does."

Then please STFU from now until the end of time about how unfaaaaair it is for men to have to pay child support for the children they father.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

61. First Of All, That Was In Regards To The First Example When They Were Young, Not The Second Example.

Second of all, I've never argued such in regards to child support, so your final line makes absolutely no sense.

[Hello_Kitty]

69. Why do you feel the need to capitalize every word in your post title? eom

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

81. I Do It Specifically To Give You A Way Out When You Have Nothing Left Of Intellect To Say.

:spray:

[alarimer]

103. Yes, a complete fucking piece of shit.

If he wasn't an abusive shit, she could refuse to have sex with him unless he wore a condom. I would refuse to have sex with someone who refused to wear a condom. But then my partners have not been abusive assholes.

She would be totally justified in killing that piece of shit.

[ohheckyeah]

11. I doubt that number is accurate.

Things have definitely changed.

I think the second pregnancy probably was abuse...he must have known she didn't want to get pregnant since she had bought emergency contraception until she ran out of money.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. I Don't. And That Still Wouldn't Be Abuse.

He didn't force the pregnancy on her. He simply chose to not intervene afterwards.

[ohheckyeah]

14. It sounded like he refused to use

a condom and obviously wouldn't help her with the money for birth control.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Do You Enjoy Making Things Up?

He sounded like that how now?

Wow. Hope I never get you on a jury, if I'm in need of one...

[Hello_Kitty]

24. From the fucking article:

Meanwhile, condoms: not happening.

I know you are a bit obtuse and perhaps need things spelled out to you in specific, excruciating detail but the rest of us seem to have this one all figured out. :eyes:

[ohheckyeah]

70. First of all, this isn't a trial, it's a message board.

Secondly, the article talked about men who refused to use condoms and the woman was buying emergency birth control until she ran out of money. If the guy knew she didn't want a child he should have used a condom.

The article didn't give a lot of information about the second pregnancy except to tell us she wanted birth control but could no longer afford it. The lack of information means that your conclusion that it was not abusive is speculative as well so you might want to come down off your high horse.

[Forkboy]

105. Oh, I so hope you need one some day.

:rofl:

[Just Saying]

18. He raped her.

Repeatedly. Stop blaming the abuse victim for feeling trapped in her situation. Rape=forcing the pregnancy on her. Not paying for an abortion if she has no money because he controls her, is indeed abuse. It's also abuse if she can't get birth control because he beats the crap out of her.

I know, she should just leave, right? Or she shouldn't have taken him back? Of course, and that's easy to say, but women that live with abuse are terrified and trapped. Their abuse doesn't just happen, but it develops over time and they often are alone and feel trapped as in - she was poor, had a kid alone, etc. There's also the fact that breaking it off and getting away is THE MOST DANGEROUS TIME FOR A WOMAN.

[Odin2005]

21. +1

[ccharles000]

22. ...

:thumbsup:

[blueamy66]

55. correct

:thumbsup:

[lukasahero]

93. +1

:thumbsup:

Thank you.

[MADem]

27. If you don't stick yo' dick in, you can't be "duped." So that shit doesn't even fly.

No glove, no love--isn't that what the kids say?

And I think the one with the womb is the decisionmaker. No womb, no vote.

Some day, they'll develop a methodology for men to carry babies to term--a simple and quick procedure to transfer the foetus and placenta from the woman to an artificial womb placed inside the man.

I'll bet there won't be lines round the block for that procedure....

[EndersDame]

33. I believe this case is total abuse but I actually know a girl who lied about being on the pill

She told me so her self because she felt that her guy (a complete and total dumb fuck just like her) was cheating on her (he was)and wanted to "save the relationship." This is part of the reasons I dont do drugs anymore so I dont hang out with trashy dumb folk.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. A shitty thing for her to do, no doubt.

But the OP is about rape and abuse. That girl you knew, as trashy and dumb as she may be, (most likely) neither raped her boyfriend nor prevented him from using his own protection.

[EndersDame]

38. Oh yeah I agree totally I was commenting on the sub thread

Although I do believe that in this case he was not as culpable because he believed her to be on reliable contraceptives

[PeaceNikki]

42. A) Bullshit. B) Whatever you THINK, it doesn't excuse RAPE, ffs!

[noiretextatique]

43. men who don't wear condoms are dopes

:nopity: not duped

[JerseygirlCT]

47. And you know it wasn't abuse because?

The refusal is what comes after the abuse. She was abused throughout the relationship. Why assume the second pregancy wasn't also the result of rape?

ETA he shouldn't have been in a position to refuse the abortion, because the scum should still have been serving a very, very, very long sentence. Close to life, I'd think, for the rape.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

60. Wasn't Abuse For The Reasons Stated.

In the second example, there was no abuse based on what was stated. That doesn't mean there wasn't any overall, just that the minimal details given about the 2nd episode don't warrant an abuse accusation. I also don't assume it was the result of rape, cause that's a hell of an assumption to make. If it was, based on the article it is quite likely that she would've said so.

I agree that if the allegations of rape are true that he should've been serving a very long sentence.

The first scenario alone, if factual, would warrant him to be beyond abusive and worthy of being locked up for a damn long time. That's obvious.

But as far as just the point made in the article about abuse occurring through use of deceit tactics in order to ensure pregnancy, well, that probably happens 100 times more often on the other side of the gender pool than the one stated.

The overall article, though touching upon it, was more about pregnancy being used as a tool of abuse than it was about rape. That's why I responded in the way I did. Women use that tactic exponentially more than men do.

[Just Saying]

76. It's called logic.

If a man abused and raped his SO/wife before, he's probably still raping and abusing her. Do you think he suddenly became a decent human being? Why do you continue to defend him? You're doing your cause a disservice defending an abuser and rapist.

Again you repeat your assertion that women get pregnant to trap men 100 times more often. Bull. Got any stats on that? Any proof? More and more you just sound like a woman-hater.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. ROFLMAO

You so silly.

:rofl:

[Control-Z]

98. He said as much

in another thread, not all that long ago. There has been no love lost between said poster and women on this board. Why anyone still responds to his arguments is baffling. We all know better. But, I have to admit, regrettably, I do get sucked in every now and then.

[Just Saying]

111. Guess I'm just too new to realize I shouldn't bother.

This type of thing just irritates me though and I can't believe I'm seeing it on a progressive message board. I thought all the guys with the attitude that white males are always the victims were on the right. LOL

Thanks for the info! :hi:

[Control-Z]

112. One would think (that they're not really progressives)

And I am constantly amazed that these particular guys (and there are more than a handful of them) are allowed to remain on this board. I guess it's all in the language they use. They're pros at manipulation.

[NashVegas]

50. "Alleged Rape"

Just can't take the bitch's word for it, can we?

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. We sure took Crystal Gayle Mangum's word for it.

Some of us even after it was proven in court that she was lying.

One person's word is an allegation.

[me b zola]

72. If your home is burglarized

...would you like for the police to refer to it as a 'alleged burglary'? How about you have to prove your case with strong evidence before the police & prosecutor takes you 'alleged' case serious enough to investigate?


:grr:

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. If I lived with the burglar for years afterwards...

... the police might be justifiably confused about my story.

But that's beside the point. The police have never been involved in this "case", only a freelance author. In fact, except for blind faith and appeals to the conventional wisdom, there is no reason given to believe that "Jane" even exists.

I find it silly that people are having to defend themselves from claims that they are revictimizing the subject of an entirely apocryphal story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

85. +1

:thumbsup:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. Of Course You Can't.

Can't tell you how many times women will throw an accusation of rape out that isn't factual. That's why we have like, ya know, courts and stuff. Taking someone's word for it is not exactly the smartest legal process I've heard.

[NashVegas]

66. Of Course. Silly Me. Rape Is Never Rape If It Wasn't Voted on By 12 Bored People On McD's Wages

[musette_sf]

100. +1

[Just Saying]

77. You can't tell us how many times because it's bullshit.

Does it happen? Yes, of course, but there are lots of cases of rape that are never reported for a wide variety of reasons including women blaming themselves because they were drunk, knew the guy, don't feel like the fought hard enough, etc. Rape is very hard to prove since there are normally only the victim and the rapist there and they often know each other.

Here's some information about rape: http://www.rainn.org/statistics
You clearly need some influence in your life besides blame women sites.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. Ummm, Did I Say Otherwise?

Obviously rapes happen more often than false accusations of it. But it's not wise to just judge someone as a rapist just because someone 'said so'.

Women definitely have it rough in that sense. Is it hard to prosecute? Sure. Do many women suffer due to that? Of course. But do we alleviate that by then just automatically judging someone of rape just because someone said so? No, cause that would just be stupid.

[Odin2005]

87. Calling rape victims liars traumatizes them again.

My friend went though that BS after she was raped, especially because she has psychiatric issues that gets her accused of "attention-seeking behavior".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. Calling Innocent People Rapists Can Cause Trauma Too Ya Know...

Just sayin...

[Odin2005]

106. Criricizing misogynistic prejudices when it comes to rape trials isn't calling innocent people...

...rapists. What I am saying is that "she was asking for it" and "she really wanted it" sentiment leads to victims getting called liars.

[noiretextatique]

89. which rape accusations aren't factual?

if you aren't talking out of your ass, please list all the many times rape accusations haven't been factual. thanks.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

94. ?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. ROFLMAO

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[ismnotwasm]

57. 100 to 1?

Wow. Intense dude

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

63. Ok I Yield. 50-1. That Better?

[Just Saying]

74. No. Any proof to back up your assertions?

Even this number is just something you pulled out of thin air.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

84. Not Exactly A Poll Goin Around On The Subject. But Life Experience Can Be Valuable Here.

What I do know, is that over the course of my life I've known quite a few women who have done exactly that, have heard of dozens more (still within the semi-immediate life circle), and have also throughout life talked with many others who also have shared quite similar experiences of knowing those (usually in the late teen years) who desperately attempted to keep their man the same way. So all in all, I've known of quite a few actual instances and actual attempts at just that.

Have I ever, ever heard a real story of when a man lied about things in order to get the woman pregnant in hopes of keeping her? Nope. Not ever.

And regardless of what your mind will allow you to believe, I know most normal people reading this would also be aware that in their younger days they knew women or heard of women who tried such a thing in an attempt to keep their man, while not really of having ever heard the reverse. So I feel pretty good about the 50-1. The 100-1 may have been a bit much.

[Just Saying]

109. Your personal experience doesn't prove the numbers you keep posting.

"Have I ever, ever heard a real story of when a man lied about things in order to get the woman pregnant in hopes of keeping her? Nope. Not ever."

I actually do know men who lied or manipulated in order to keep a woman. Not to mention, as is the supject of this thread, men who beat, threaten, rape, etc. for just that purpose. The article posted talked specifically about men using pregnancy and children to try to trap the women they abuse.

Of course there are women that try to trap men by having his child, but the men are perfectly capable of not having sex or using a condom to not get her pregnant.

WAKE UP! You are playing the victim and clearly have issues with women.

[elleng]

10. Its an unhealthy relationship,

and she needs help getting out of it, children or not.

[Odin2005]

17. I saw this so often in the little rural town I grew up in, it's horrific.

:cry:

[Unrepentant Fenian]

32. If it were my body...

If it were my body, I'd be more intelligent about birth control.

[Greyhound]

30. Lynn Harris needs to go back to the community college she obviously dropped out of.

That aside for the moment; This is a tragic story in several aspects, but the single thread throughout is rampant stupidity.

Oh never mind...

[cbdo2007]

44. How can this guy even get a date to begin with?

Really, you know how many problems we'd solve if people would teach girls how to actually pick a good, respectable guy than an asshole?

I'm sure the warning signs were there for this girl, even on their first or second date, but she overlooked them for whatever reason. Never ignore the warning signs. An asshole is an asshole and isn't going to change.

[Laelth]

46. Welcome to DU.

You pose an interesting question. I have a theory, in response to your question, but many will find it inadequate or troubling. Women, it seems, are driven by their genetic code to choose the most vicious barbarians possible as mates. Testosterone is an immuno-suppressant. Thus, if the barbarian with high testosterone survived out of childhood, he must have a killer immune system. Women want to give that immunity to their children. The problem is, it's very hard to live with a vicious barbarian (and many other women want his genetic code too). So, the woman is caught in a bind. Follow her instincts or her brain? She knows she'll be happier with a civilized, less-testosterone-driven man, but she wants to sleep with the barbarian. Usually, from what I have seen, most women try a barbarian or two first and then "settle" for someone who is more likely to make their lives stable and happy.

But it's a tough call. I feel quite sorry for women on this issue.

:dem:

-Laelth

Edit:Laelth--darned prepositions.

[lukasahero]

95. Actually, you might want to pick up last week's Newsweek

That "most vicious barbarians possible as mates" is well-disputed. Oh, never mind, here's the link: http://www.newsweek.com/id/202789/page/2

"Even the notion that being a brave warrior helps a man get the girls and leave many offspring has been toppled. Until missionaries moved in in 1958, the Waorani tribe of the Ecuadoran Amazon had the highest rates of homicide known to science: 39 percent of women and 54 percent of men were killed by other Waorani, often in blood feuds that lasted generations. "The conventional wisdom had been that the more raids a man participated in, the more wives he would have and the more descendants he would leave," says anthropologist Stephen Beckerman of Pennsylvania State University. But after painstakingly constructing family histories and the raiding and killing records of 95 warriors, he and his colleagues reported last month in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, they turned that belief on its head. "The badass guys make terrible husband material," says Beckerman. "Women don't prefer them as husbands and they become the targets of counterraids, which tend to kill their wives and children, too." As a result, the über-warriors leave fewer descendants—the currency of evolutionary fitness—than less aggressive men. Tough-guy behavior may have conferred fitness in some environments, but not in others. It depends. "The message for the evolutionary-psychology guys," says Beckerman, "is that there was no single environment in which humans evolved" and therefore no single human nature."

[Laelth]

104. Very interesting. Thanks for the link.

The theory I described is based upon genetics (and the obvious signs of high testosterone) as opposed to behavior, like the study you cite. And I wasn't suggesting that the offspring of high-testosterone males were more likely to succeed in civilized society. Quite the opposite. High testosterone males have a very hard time dealing with civilization (as did the guy in the OP--heavily ridiculed and ostracized here). I just suggested that, in my experience, women prefer to mate with high testosterone males (for some reason that is probably genetic and probably related to their superior immune systems).

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[pipi_k]

49. There are some things I think should be taught in school...

along with the usual curriculum, and one of them is, as you mentioned, how to pick partners who aren't going to be abusive. Teaching girls the "red flag" signals, so to speak.

Unfortunately, the reasons why girls pick assholes probably goes way beyond just learning how not to do it. Their partner choices have been programmed into them probably by the age of five or so. Given my own background, I doubt any amount of teaching would have been able to overcome my almost uncanny ability to choose guys who were just like my (alcoholic) father...even if these guys didn't drink. For me, one guy was very much like another, except for the names and faces. It took literally years before I could break free of that.

It's a sad family legacy and girls see the way their moms were treated and how their parents' marriage went, and either did, or didn't, have a Daddy who taught them that men are supposed to cherish them...not abuse them.

It starts with the dads, way back in the girls' childhood...and so many men don't even realize how their behavior negatively affects their daughters and sets them up for failure in adulthood. :(

[Just Saying]

51. Because we all just want to be loved.

And many people are blinded by love or the person doesn't show their true colors until they're in deep. There's also the issue that so many women grow up seeing abuse and think it's normal. And finally, some of us girls think we can "fix" a man that has problems.

Often, abuse is systematic. The abusers often find women who already have problems, then they alienate them from their friends and family so they don't have support, they threaten and hurt and then apologize and promise to change.

We have to be careful not to blame the victims of abuse, but I agree with you that teaching girls to value themselves could help. Sadly, it's a societal problem.

[cbdo2007]

54. That's true, thanks for all the responses.

I especially understand about women picking guys who resemble their abusive fathers. My Mom ruined the one good relationship she's ever had, with my Dad, by divorcing him so she can now run around with a bunch of alcoholic, drug addicts just like her dad was. Even for me, her son, there is no convincing her NOT to date alcoholics.

[NashVegas]

65. When Do We Teach Them That?

If you listen to *some* DUers, kids of all ages should be left alone to fuck their brains out and explore their bodies.

So when do you think we should start teaching girls how to pick a good, respectable guy? Age 8?

Hey! How about this? When do we start teaching boys and girls, both, that sex is not supposed to be a tool for dominating someone?

[cbdo2007]

67. You should always be teaching them, with advice and by example.

Same with teaching both boys and girls that sex is not supposed to be a tool for dominating someone. You should always be teaching them with advice and by example.

BUT since you can't count on other people to teach their children that sex is not supposed to be a tool for dominating someone, so there's going to be a bunch of idiots out there hoping to take advantage of people, we CAN try to help the women in our lives not date these guys so they have less people to prey on.

[NeedleCast]

48. This Relationship Had at Least Two Idiots

Not condoning the actions of the dude, which were obviously abuse and unquestionably criminal if he was raping her. Sounds like both persons in this relationship made terrible choices. It's so hard for me to wrap my brain around why a woman would stay in a relationship (and I use that word loosely) with someone like this. There's a world full of nice guys who don't do this shit but some women seem to gravitate toward the assholes who do.

[FirstLight]

59. Without reading all the posts above I want to reply -

I was in an abusive martriage and duped into a whirlwind romance, etc. My ex KNEW that I had been abandoned while pregnant with my first child, and used that against me...

I cannot take birth control because it causes ovarian cysts and other complications. I had been using different methods with my previous boyfriend for a year and had no "accidents"...and since I had already lost most of one ovary with a earlier cyst, I thought my fertility was compromised too...
He said openly when I got my period in the first coupe months of our relationship "didn't get ya this time, have to get you next time"
I thought he was joking, and though it wasn't rape...he made it a point to have sex with me at odd hours when my birth control was not nearby, and if he used a condom, he'd say "oops" after taking it off incorrectly or breaking it...
yes, the bad choices of insecurity and lessons unlearned were my fault for being with him...but the rest of it was something darker, he was setting himself up to move in, start a life and have me be his house-bitch...hindsight is 20-20

the first pregnancy was really healthy, and I was actually suckered into thinking this was a happily ever after scenario, we got married, and he seemed to be really excited about the prospect... then something happened... dunno if it was drugs, or just that sometimes a person's deeper wounds don't come forth until they have a child of their own, but it trigered something in him.
I was unable to get to a dr appt without him with me (and he told them we had birth control, but I needed anti-depressants), only one car, and a nursing baby kept me pretty overwhelmed, I tried to go back to work but eventually got fired for falling asleep at my desk because I was constantly up all night with the baby (he refused to do the 'woman's job'..and was staying up late w.online porn because I had gotten "fat & ugly")
his sexual appeities got freakier nd I was essentially raped repeatedly...he made me do things that I woiuld never consider part of a loving relationship, but he was my husband and I was in a very dependent place...
the second pregnancy was where it got REALLY ugly
I was pregant by the time our daughtr was 8 mos old, so they kids are about 15 mos apart...he threw me across the room in my 7th month and I went into premature labor
when the nurses and dr asked me in the hospital those "questions" they are supposed to ask... "have you been a victim of domestic violence in the past 24 hours...?"
he was standing right next to the bed, I HAD to say no, even though their eyes told me they knew differently... I was sent home on bedrest for 6 weeks... with the monster being my only caretaker...

It's a wonder the kids a re normal nd healthy, even my oldest after all this time - 6 yrs of fredom...
I finally left him when my baby was 7 mos old and my daughter wasn't even 2...he had alredy possboy molested her at that time, tests were "inconclusive" my oldest was avery disturbe tween, but has grown into a sensitive and funy young man
we are open about what happened, my kids know tht we left 'because daddy hurt mommy' (and that's all the details they know)
and thank god the bastard is now in prison for a long time...unrelated charges, but hey, at least we're safe

Martial rape and pregnancy as a weapon to keep you from running is reality
it's not about birth control or abortion...it's about a situation where you are kept beaten down in your mentality because of another's need to CONTROL you.
It's about using the mothering instinct against you...a woman is more likely to stay in one place than run off with kids in tow...

I am lucky I had the nerve to get out when i did
I don't want to think about what "could have" happened if I had stayed or how many more babies he'd have forced on me, my body suffered greatly from those two pregnancies back to back...and I will always regret that those pregnancies births were not as sweet as they should have been... (no baby showers, no baby books, no joy)

but the kids are a joy now, and that's what matters

[JerseygirlCT]

64. Thank you for sharing that

And I'm so glad to hear you got out and that you and your kids are safe.

[meow2u3]

71. She ought to do what I did

This happened to me 26 years ago. I wouldn't even think of having an abortion--I know a little more than most about the side effects of an abortion on a woman. I gave my kid up for adoption, against the will of my kid's dad, who was an abusive alcoholic I dumped when he hit me in the belly, endangering the kid's life.

I put up with his shit for 2 years--including his taking a gun to me and threatening to kill me if I left him--largely because I was ignorant, naive, and deathly afraid of him, but when my unborn kid was the target, that's when I mustered up the courage to stand up to him and tell him it's over! I kicked his sorry ass to the curb and then went to an adoption agency to give my son to a family who couldn't have children of their own. I even swore--and it was the truth--that I didn't know where the dad was. To tell you the truth, I didn't care where this asshole was, and even if I could raise him, I'd have turned my son against his father, telling him his dad was a no-good bum with nothing better to do than to bully women.

[ellie]

79. I'm curious,

what are the side effects of abortion on a woman?

[LisaL]

107. I am not the person who posted that, but here goes.

"Complications of spontaneous and therapeutic abortions include (1) complications of anesthesia, (2) postabortion triad (ie, pain, bleeding, low-grade fever), (3) hematometra, (4) retained products of conception, (5) uterine perforation, (6) bowel and bladder injury, (7) failed abortion, (8) septic abortion, (9) cervical shock, (10) cervical laceration, and (11) disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC)"

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/795001-overview

[Control-Z]

102. I'd also like to know

what the side effects of an abortion are.

And no one should be advised to do what you did, unless that is what fits their needs. I'm glad it worked out for you. But there are some women who would not fair well with carrying a pregnancy to term. And some who could not live with giving up a child. And those who could be putting their life in danger.

There are also many women whose situations are far more difficult than yours was.

We're all different. No fix works for all.