Who Are We?-BOB HERBERT-"Policies that were wrong under Bush-NO less wrong because Obama Is In WH"

[kpete]

Op-Ed Columnist
Who Are We?

Policies that were wrong under George W. Bush are no less wrong because Barack Obama is in the White House.

By BOB HERBERT
Published: June 22, 2009

One of the most disappointing aspects of the early months of the Obama administration has been its unwillingness to end many of the mind-numbing abuses linked to the so-called war on terror and to establish a legal and moral framework designed to prevent those abuses from ever occurring again.

The president deserves credit for unequivocally banning torture and some of the other brutal interrogation techniques that spread like a plague in the Bush administration’s lawless response to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. But other policies that offend the conscience continue.

Americans should recoil as one against the idea of preventive detention, imprisoning people indefinitely, for years and perhaps for life, without charge and without giving them an opportunity to demonstrate their innocence.

.................

Proof of guilt? In 21st-century America, there is no longer any need for such annoyances.

Human rights? Ha-ha. That’s a good one.

more:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/opinion/23herbert.html?_r=1

[SammyWinstonJack]

1. knr

[Mari333]

2. the big guns are out, and Helen Thomas today

I hope someone is listening in DC...
knr

[SammyWinstonJack]

3. No more front row seat for Helen.

:evilgrin:

[Mari333]

4. he wouldnt dare

but I bet he doesnt call on her.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Which amounts to the same thing.

[earth mom]

33. Who'd have thought Obama could possibly treat Helen like * did?

:wow:

The mind boggles.

[kenfrequed]

24. Yes

I seem to recall Anne Coulter and Michelle Malkin also ripping on poor ole Helen Thomas. An attack on her would clearly be in such esteemed company.


I love Helen Thomas. She is one of the only damned White House press corp people not completely enamored of the prestidge of White House and she actually has a tendency to speak truth to power.

[bjobotts]

37. Bob Herbert is Obama's biggest supporter. Simply loves the man but is shocked at this behavior

[pleah]

6. K&R

[polmaven]

7. Can't argue with that!

:thumbsup:

K&R

[Echo In Light]

8. His admin wasn't installed to end phony war on terror "abuses." They're all in on it.

[MarjorieG]

9. There are problem cases because of what we did, didn't do. Now, no one wants the detainees. Maybe a

shout-out or blame to those politicizing closing it down with ridiculous fear-mongering.

Herbert is the ocnscience of the paper, but he, too, doesn't explain how to do things differently. Obama has gotten into the nitty gritty of financial regulation, also needing to make banks survive this havoc they created. The regs have good aspects to them, and Congress will water down whatever he sends. Yet, all we hear is how he isn't doing enough in very superficial ways, but populism feels good.

We also don't have the recommended DoJ people we need. They're still being held up by the GOP.

[MasonJar]

20. Excuse me! We know what to do. If the government damaged evidence,

then it pays the price. If there is no evidence, it pays the price. If, that is, there is tainted evidence or absence of legitimate evidence, the case is closed and the alleged perpetrator goes free. We do not hold people without charge; it is illegal to do so. Our country is at stake here and our rule of law. If Obama had any true reverence for the rule of law, he would stand tall and explain in his famous oratorial style that to let a few supposed terrorists go free is what we must accept for living in a country of laws and for having allowed a government of torturers to continue torturing. Better that 100 men go free than that one innocent one be imprisoned holds true for all if we are the country we claim to be and the country for which innumerable citizens have fought and died. Not honestly trying these prisoners in a fair and unbiased court of law is tantamont to abolishing the whole essense of our society. So a few more bombers end up out there somewhere; there are plenty now made ever more virulent by our obtruse and unsupportable policies. Perhaps if some were released, they might even spread the word that we are not so bad after all. In any case it is the Bushista which is culpable for this dilemma. They are the ones who should be on trial along side the men they captured who may or not be guilty of anything. We know Bush/Cheney are guilty. Cheney has bragged about their guilt on one national television show after another. Obama must now decide if he will join their cabal or expose it! All evidence points so far to the former as his response. THANKS, BOB HERBERT, FOR TELLING LIKE IT IS1111111111

[debunkthelies]

21. And the....

TRUTH shall set you free.

[debunkthelies]

22. And the....

TRUTH shall set you free.

[chill_wind]

26. Here's a perfect example

of what we do in the cases with no evidence:


U.S. Relies on Tortured Evidence in Habeas Case
Government Submits Evidence Tossed in 2008 War Crimes Case
By Daphne Eviatar 6/23/09 1:44 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5907553&mesg_id=5907553

We wash, rinse and repeat the arguments.

[chill_wind]

28. "Superficial"? I'm not sure

where you've been--but I see the many months of DU questions/discussions by many here about human rights, torture, war crimes accountability and the Obama record so far on maintaining many of the same Bush legal arguments in the courts- as framed up by the Bush cabal on matters of executive authority, national security rationales protected by excess secrecy... having been anything but superficial.

I wouldn't characterize a great deal of the dialogue on the bank bailouts, the wars or health care reform as exactly superficial either.

Blanket supporters might not agree with the critics on various views, but superficial's not a word I'd use for those strongly committed to their arguments and POV's.

[Greyhound]

39. With such nonsensical doublespeak you should hold, or at least work in, some political office.

Rarely do I have to re-read a post that many times to verify what hasn't really been said.

Rule of law, or in this case the restoration thereof, is not negotiable. Prosecution of criminality is not negotiable.

Just like this so-called "need" of the banks to survive, you seem to accept the unacceptable as inevitable, when in fact it is not even desirable.

[CrispyQ]

10. Of all the reasons I voted for Obama,

the reasons in this article were at the very top of my list.

k&r

[Jakes Progress]

11. Bob and Helen have just become dead

to so many pom-pomers.

[chimpymustgo]

13. He'll have lots of company - it's a pretty big cemetery.

[Vidar]

12. Obama is all for human rights--in Iran. K&R.

[chill_wind]

14. That had to take some courage. Bob Herbert is right on.

He validates what many, many voices of conscience on the left have been consistently saying.

K & R.

[redqueen]

15. Hah, good ole Bob. At least he's not obsessing about phallic symbols anymore.

And he hasn't stooped to chiding Obama the way he did Gore.

So... I guess he's improving.

[chill_wind]

16. Obama's Right Turn.

POLITICS-US: Obama’s Right Turn
Analysis by William Fisher

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5905780

[Solly Mack]

17. K&R

[winyanstaz]

18. I have to agree. I voted for Obama and I think his wife and children are wonderful,

but I want him to do the right thing. To continue the Bush policies is wrong,..period.

[earth mom]

34. How many people in this country thought * was great until he started pulling the shit he did?

A pretty face only goes so far.

Actions speaks louder than words.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

19. He just said a WHOLE lotta truth!

Obama -- are you listening????

[MissDeeds]

23. K&R

We need to hold our president to Democratic values and ideals. Obama needs to get with the program, the Democratic program, or be prepared for the fall-out in 2012.

[pam4water]

25. K & R

[Butch350]

27. I'm behind you 100% plus Mr President! "FAW"

[LWolf]

29. K & R nt

[Senator]

30. Sorry, there's no credit for oxymoronically "banning torture".

Particularly when the non-prosecution of it is de facto legalization -- and http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">already has damaged our reputation anew.

Herbert's a bit late with the oxymoron label.

---

[pat_k]

31. k&r

[Krashkopf]

32. 75th Rec to this very important OP-ED

[Fiendish Thingy]

35. k&r

damn skippy.

[man4allcats]

36. K&R!

:kick:

[Senator]

38. K&R

[scentopine]

40. 2010 mid-terms and our republican president

Those claiming to be republican turn out in larger numbers than those claiming to be democrats. By not aggressively prosecuting crimes and misdeeds under a right wing government and by not providing a compelling case for historically successful democratic governments, there is no differentiation and literally no reason to vote. We really are becoming one republican party. By keeping things the same and indirectly helping republicans rescue their party by way of Obama's republican outreach program, people will be comfortable voting republican again at local and federal levels.

Obama is instead playing kissy face, preferring to accommodate his enemies at the table rather than working for change. Its as if republicans are equals. They aren't. Some would say republicans are more equal. For those of us who worked at the grass roots level to end this inequality, the door has been slammed shut.

I claim this is going to be a factor 2010. With so little change being seen in the whitehouse there is nothing for democrats/progressives to celebrate (besides a cute family and cute dog). Oops, outsourcing and big bonuses and salaries on wall street are reasons for some to celebrate. No torture prosecutions give some a reason to celebrate. Meanwhile middle class America is slowly suffocating.

Obama will not be relying on the traditional grass roots support since we worked hard and got almost nothing in return. Granted, we didn't get another Alito, but we did get a mushy centrist who looks only slightly left of Sandra Day. With -10 as max conservative and +10 as max liberal, SCOTUS today is at about -6. Sotomayor makes it about -4. No happy dance from me.

Unemployment continues to climb, corp. America is writing health plans, wall street continues to self regulate and use our taxes and pension funds to pay for their outrageous lifestyles. John Yoo is enjoying the spoils of torture. So, 2010 grass roots support will be limited. Bush achieved his objectives because republicans rubber stamped and democrats in congress were impotent. Bush is still achieving his objectives because Obama is afraid of a fighting for change and democrats in congress are still impotent.

Obama can move fast when he wants to, He is quickly moving forward with Bush's Cyber-Security Agency. Yet another agency designed to spy on Americans.

Too bad we can't move so quickly on jobs creation, environmental issues, ending outsourcing, wall street regulation and shutting down corrupt wall street banks, prosecuting torture, real health care reform, etc, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Yes, when Dems cave in to Republican policies

they LOSE.

All those screaming crowds were not voting for "more of the same."

I fear that in 2010, the Dems will learn that there are alternatives to voting for Dems who continue voting for Bush Lite policies ("Cuz where can disaffected Dem voters go?" sneer the blind loyalists."Will they vote Republican?")

Well, there are three options:

1) Supporting primary challengers

2) Voting third party

3) Not voting

My Congressman (Keith Ellison) is one of the good guys, so I'll have no trouble voting for him, but it looks as if Senator Amy Klobuchar needs a primary challengers to inspire her to actually take a stand on something instead of making long, weasel-word answers to direct questions.

[scentopine]

43. As a party we are anesthetized. We wimper about republicans.

We should be in the streets marching and angry as hell because wall street continues to rape and plunder the treasury. They claim they need to pay to keep the best. And then they outsource to India. We are passing billions in school taxes and bonds to outfit schools with computers. Wall street is sending work to someone in India who didn't see a computer till he was 18. But he'll work for less than $7/hr. Is this really the best?

Between this and insurance business and hospitals and spying and torture and Fox news telling their viewers to get guns - there should be massive protests. But we sit quietly and hope for change and listen to soaring oratory. Completely tragic.

You are correct. We need strong leadership and a new political party. Today's democrat is simply day-old republican. Now, I understand the anger that drove several million people to vote for Nader. Wasted vote? No.

Ripping off the treasury and torture won't get you arrested. Peacefully holding a protest sign in the wrong part of the side walk will get you arrested. So, we have no other way to protest. Vote third party is it. Have been a straight ticket dem for over 30 years. Thousands of dollars and hours in campaigning and funding. That stops next election. I've had it with the corruption and corporate ownership of our military and treasury. Third party is the only alternative. I can't be honest with myself voting democratic any longer.

Let's see Obama lead a march down wall street. Then, maybe I'll reconsider.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

41. K&R big time

The Obama guard dogs aren't goint to like it but it is very obvious they have a hard time with the truth these days. Today I was called "anti-Democratic" for daring to question some of the same practices in Herbert's op-ed. The natives are getting restless aren't they?