"Ma'am-Gate"...Chuck DeVore calls Senator's salutation preference "liberal-military confrontation"

[Amerigo Vespucci]

UPDATE: More fall-out from Sen. Boxer's insistence last week that the military officer she was questioning call her 'senator,' instead of 'ma'am.' Chuck DeVore, a Republican running for Boxer's Senate seat in 2010 called it "the latest liberal-military confrontation." He went on to bring up her participation in Vietnam War protests and ask on his website: "Why do some liberals apparently despise our military?"

Republican Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina was also disturbed by the nomenclature request, calling the Senator "a loose cannon" and an embarrassment to her party. From McClatchy's write up of the kerfuffle:

Republican critics in the blogosphere and elsewhere are excoriating Boxer... "I just can't put up with that kind of thing when people think too much of themselves, and we see a lot of that in Washington," DeMint told Fox News Channel.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/18/barbara-boxer-call-me-sen_n_217564.html

:eyes:

[Eric J in MN]

1. I hope that Chuck DeVore puts his own money into the race.

A lot of money he will never see again as he goes down to defeat.

[Ian David]

2. You call your boss whatever he or she tells you to. Period.

Didn't this douchebag ever see the first episode of Star Trek Voyager anyway?

[Eric J in MN]

5. Why, what happened on Voyager? NT

NT

[Ian David]

7. Her instructions were something like, "Call me Captain, or Ma'am in a pinch, but don't call me Sir"

[dorkulon]

13. Nice reference

but she's not really his boss. The president's his boss.

[Ian David]

15. True. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

11. *

:applause:

[Obamanaut]

20. Of all the senate races I've ever seen, I can't recall ever seeing

one mentioning being "one of one hundred assistant commanders-in-chief". The President is considered the boss of a general, or a member of the joint chiefs of staff, but not s senator.

Ma'am is totally respectful.

Recall how Bush was ridiculed because he insisted on being addressed as Mr. President.

This was simply a case of a public servant (highly paid) posturing for the press/public. Is she starting her campaign for reelection yet?

[Eric J in MN]

21. She had no way of knowing that a 16 second video of that exchange would be made...

...and be seen by the masses.

[Obamanaut]

38. The multitude of cameras in the room should have been a clue. nt

[Eric J in MN]

81. There are usually cameras during hearings.

Barbara Boxer had no way to know that anything she said during the hearing would become a heavily-viewed YouTube clip.

[Raineyb]

95. Why wouldn't she? C-Span is not exactly a secret organization. n/t

[omega minimo]

28. Aside from your projections and misinterpretion, does it ever occur to you to support one our best

Democratic senators because she is one of the best?

[Obamanaut]

36. As the Patrick Swayze character said in the movie "Roadhouse",

"opinions vary."

But taking an opportunity to posture by chastising (my word, not hers) a general in order to attempt to validate her position is tacky. And not necessary.

[omega minimo]

42. Bullshit.

Have you ever been "ma'amed"? Have you ever been a Senator? Get over yourself.

[Obamanaut]

46. No, I have not been "ma'amed". But in my 28 years in the Navy I

did "ma'am" a bunch of women officers, as well as "sir" a bunch of men officers - most of whom during the last half of my career were younger than I was. It's ok. I still "ma'am" women in public places, and now many of them are much younger.

And no, I've not been a senator, and I have no idea why that would enter into it. Have you ever been a general? Have you ever said sir or ma'am to anyone? Were you forced to do it? When (if) you did it, did you do it grudgingly?

[Selatius]

53. You call your commanding officer as "Sir" or "Ma'am" as the default, unless otherwise instructed.

In the US, the military leadership is subordinate to the civilian leadership. That's the American way. A senator, representative, or president is to be treated with as much respect as any officer or general in the military. If instructed to address a higher rank including civilian leadership a certain way, you do as you are instructed, period. For instance, if President Bush wanted you to address him as "Mr. President" instead of "Sir," you do as ordered.

[omega minimo]

54. It's difficult for some males and some military folks to expand their point of view to think

about this from the Senator's aspect -- or at least grant her the respect she well deserves.

[Obamanaut]

65. It is difficult for some people, male, female, military, civilian to

recognize that they are being addressed respectfully even if they are not being addressed by a title of office.

The tone of voice of the speaker, his or her body language, inflection when using such terms as sir or madam - all can convey respect or lack of it. To demand, or request, that a more formal title be used - and to make such demand or request in a public forum rather than quietly and privately - to give the illusion of respect says volumes about the person holding that title.

Here it is, 2009 with 2010 being an election year and the positioning, word-play, camera sound bites - started already. Imagine that.

[omega minimo]

68. His attitude isn't the point. Her preference is. That's it. He dealt with it. So can everybody else.

[Obamanaut]

73. Her attitude is the point. Rather than addressing her 'preference'

quietly and in private, she did it with the camera rolling, in effect saying to the world "watch me put this upstart in HIS place."

Positioning for a 2010 campaign. Slogan "tough on generals." Massive fail.

[omega minimo]

75. The senator and the general and the people with common sense are fine with it.

[MrsMatt]

84. I thought she came across a bit too strong

in stating her preference. I felt she was rebuking him for what he would have considered a respecful address.

It seemed to suggest, to me, that she didn't have a complete grasp of what constitutes courtesy in the military culture.

[omega minimo]

85. It is helpful to "have a complete grasp of what constitutes courtesy in the" Congressional culture

It is also helpful to watch the entire hearing, observe the demeanor and the behavior. She did not ""come across a bit too strong." She spoke like she did throughout the rest of the hearing.

IMHO this is one of the stumbling blocks for people not understanding what a senator and committee chair may sound like, no matter what their gender.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=f7893b18-55b2-40f8-a2fc-9a7b905a4756

[MrsMatt]

92. I don't think he was discourteous

and I thought she seemed a bit too thin-skinned. That's just how it came across to me.

YMMV

[omega minimo]

93. Please try to understand IT DOES NOT MATTER if he was "discourteous"

There is protocol in the Senate just as routine as in the military.

If you watch the links, other members, the previous witness (Sen. Landrieu) and the General himself refer to her as "Madame Chair."

He did this during his written testimony. When answering questions, he used "Ma'am." She requested he call her "Senator."

He got the concept. Pretty simple, really.


As for "thin-skinned," as this thread shows, sometimes women don't appreciate being "ma'amed," esp. repetitively. It's distracting and can be annoying.

[subcomhd]

86. If you want to look like a jerk,

insist on being addressed by your title

Works every time.

If he had been calling all of the male senators "senator" and calling her ma'am, that would be one thing. But she was singling herself out to be called senator when they where all being sirred and ma'am-ed.

It's like doctors who introduce themselves in social situations as "Doctor" so-and-so. It's pretentious

[Obamanaut]

89. Not a popular opinion. nt

[subcomhd]

90. Oh, I think it's probably pretty popular.

Most folks at some point have worked for - or had to deal with - people with huge egos. Fact is, I think Boxer is very good senator. She is certainly the better of California's two. But people who insist on being called by their titles look like jerks.

[Obamanaut]

106. Tried to warn you. But I agree with you. nt

[subcomhd]

107. sometimes the outrage is downright Palinesque

is it not?

[omega minimo]

98. From what you're claiming, it's clear you did not watch the hearing. She was called

"Madame Chair" by the witness previous (Sen. Landrieu) and by the general while he read his prepared statement. Then he started calling her "ma'am."

This was before the general addressed any others senators on the committee.



http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=f7893b18-55b2-40f8-a2fc-9a7b905a4756

[subcomhd]

99. and in what universe is ma'am an insult?

I didn't know my parents were teaching me to be rude all those years.

[omega minimo]

100. Hey there dude from redneckistan!! Read the thread, there's lots of good discussion

:thumbsup:

[subcomhd]

101. yes ma'am there sure is

[omega minimo]

102. and yet you still don't get the concept

[subcomhd]

103. I get the concept

that apparently there is a group (though surely small) of English speakers who are under the impression that addressing a woman as ma'am is an insult. This linguistically challenged group seems to overlap to some degree with people who believe that when a powerful member of the ruling class publicly demands to be called by her title she is striking a blow for equality.

[omega minimo]

104. Nope, still don't got it

:shrug:

[subcomhd]

108. Get What? Paleo-Feminist High Dudgeon?

Is David Letterman still oppressing you?

[omega minimo]

109. How's the weather in Redneckistan today? Hot nuff for ya?

[purplecat1]

3. I saw this on HuffPost

and I responded there that this is just a lot of silliness. He was being respectful and she was rude and condescending. I understand she worked hard for her Senate spot, but so did 99 other people. he referred to the other Senators as "Sir". It is a show of respect.

when we complain about how uncivilized our society has become, we can look to this silliness as a contribution.

More people should be using 'Sir' and 'Ma'am'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Or the TITTLE, which is what she asked

based on a history of derision for women in the house and the senate.

But I am sure you knew that.

Enjoy your stay.

By the way, protocol said that using Ma'am or Sir might be correct, but the tittle is just as valid, so you call them what they ask you. After all the General is working for her, and me.

[dorkulon]

10. He was being nice. She wasn't.

It's just that simple and I don't see how gender enters into it. It's never been derisive to call a woman "ma'am".

[Eric J in MN]

22. She didn't say it was derisive to say "ma'am," just that she prefers Senator.

She was nice about it.

[omega minimo]

Thank you. That's it

[EFerrari]

29. If you don't see how gender enters into it, that's already a problem.

If you want to undercut a woman in a public meeting, the first thing you do is bring up her gender.

[omega minimo]

32. Do you know if the general was

calling the males "sir" AND "senator"? That could have been a bit grating, even if the military has that "nice" habit of speech.

[EFerrari]

45. I don't but I trust Barbara. She is not a drama queen. She's my best Senator.

:)

[omega minimo]

52. The ONLY one who contested the bogus Ohio vote count that reinstalled Bushco in 2004

She was the ONLY one who supported Stephanie Tubbs-Jones contest the electoral count.

[omega minimo]

30. It doesn't have to be "derisive." She expressed her preference and her reason. Doesn't matter what

his reason was.

The general grasped the concept quicker than all the posters who can't comprehend simple aspects of this.

[dorkulon]

43. I still don't get it.

Why does she deserve her own rules? If a male Senator had similarly insisted on not being called "sir," I think we'd all agree that was weird.

I don't hate Sen. Boxer; I just thought this was unnecessarily... odd.

[omega minimo]

51. They are called both Senator and "Sir." I'll bet that's what the General did that day and on other

occasions. If he called her her title, "Senator" AND "ma'am," and that was consistent with how male senators are treated, her correction may not have been made.

If military types use BOTH honorifics for males, but neglect to switch out and also call females "Senator," that distinction -- as subtle as it may seem -- is inappropriate. Treating women differently because they are women is sexist.

Here's a question: when senators are called by their title by everyone else in their sphere all day long, why should the military be exempt from using the correct honorific, just because THEIR protocol has them parroting "ma'am" and "sir" al the time?

:think:

Senator Boxer is also the Democratic Majority Chairman (word used on the website) of that particular committee.

If you imagine sitting in her position and being "ma'amed" to death, it might help one understand.

Not only should she not be criticized for graciously requesting that her title be used, she never should have had to ask for that courtesy in the first place.

That's the flipside for all those who are trashing her:

Being a woman politician and having reached that level of representation, STILL being subjected to the slights (not assuming that was the general's intention) and reminders that women are not-men, where being a man is 'the norm.'

If I imagine how she felt, it appeared she was trying to concentrate and found the constant "ma'am" distracting.

That's how hard she works for the American people and people of California.

[dorkulon]

60. You may be right.

I'm actually looking at the hearing now. (EDIT: Flash video of hearing if you're interested) He calls Vitter Senator at least once and then reverts to sir. Then speaking to Landrieu he goes right to ma'am. It's subtle, but I can see it. I think in his position I'd start off with Senator and then go with sir or ma'am, going back to Senator every once in a while.

But I don't think sir and ma'am are only okay for military. Even the president's staff calls him sir more often than Mr. President. And had Hillary won, they'd be calling her ma'am. I mean, we're kind of boxed into the language...they couldn't call her "sir."

On the deeper point: I find it sad to think that simply being reminded that one is female can be undermining to a woman's confidence. I don't mean to be insensitive; it's just--man, that's sad. I thought feminists knew they were at least as capable as men. That's always been my belief, and I can't imagine that the merest indication of gender could be construed as a slight. I don't know, it seems like we ought to be past that by now. But really, a Senator of either gender is likely to be a very confident person.

I have to say I think it's a little disingenuous to say she was being pleasant about it. I definitely heard a touch of irritation in her voice. It was technically gracious, but somewhat brusque in execution. Obviously, she's earned her position and can be a total jerk if she wants, and many senators are. But why pretend she wasn't irritated? She clearly was. By the context of the hearing (a disappointing one about N.O. levees), actually, I'd say she was actually just kind of smacking the guy around a bit, just to show him who was boss. Nothing wrong with that, though--military guys so that all the time, and so do angry congressmen at hearings.

[omega minimo]

67. I'm watching it too. Very interesting, inc. that it's Army Corps, regarding delays in NOLA projects

"On the deeper point: I find it sad to think that simply being reminded that one is female can be undermining to a woman's confidence. I don't mean to be insensitive; it's just--man, that's sad. I thought feminists knew they were at least as capable as men. That's always been my belief, and I can't imagine that the merest indication of gender could be construed as a slight. I don't know, it seems like we ought to be past that by now. But really, a Senator of either gender is likely to be a very confident person."

This is kind of funny. Even someone who is trying to relate, has such trouble relating to the POV.

"I thought feminists knew they were at least as capable as men." Yes. And no, it is not "undermining to a woman's confidence." It's not "simply being reminded that one is female," either.

I already said it. It is the reminder and "slight" (even if not conscious or intended) that MALE IS NORMAL, the STANDARD AND WOMEN ARE NOT-MALE, always viewed as compared to or associated with or referenced FROM the male. It doesn't undermine a confident woman. It may be tiresome or irritating or distracting to be reminded that the OTHER person sees a woman first and a senator second.

I hope that makes sense. I'm going to watch the rest of this...... thanks for your comments.

[EFerrari]

12. People don't get it. They don't get that bringing up a women's gender

in such a setting is like bringing up race, and historically used to undercut authority. I won't even argue this any more. It's tone dead and tiresome.

[purplecat1]

25. I just think this is silliness

and a lot to do about nothing. calling someone Ma'am is not sexist, it is a sign of respect. I don't think he was being sexist or disrespectful by calling her ma'am. And I don't see a problem with her asking to be called "Senator", I just think she was rather condescending in her tone when she made the request. As if he had done something purposefully offensive.

But whatever, different strokes and all....

[EFerrari]

27. Sexism is mostly a matter of context and you were not in that room.

But, good going, slamming Barbara Boxer for simply asserting her rank. If that Brigadier General can't take it, he's in the wrong business.

[purplecat1]

31. The Brigadier General isn't the one making an issue of this

we are...and the rest of the blogosphere.

[EFerrari]

35. That's right. The RW nutcases are. n/t

[fascisthunter]

58. .

[Obamanaut]

66. I believe the senator from California did. It could have been done

quietly and privately during a break in the proceedings, and I'm sure the general would have complied.

[EFerrari]

122. The senator from California expressed a preference

as is her prerogative.

[omega minimo]

37. He handled it better than all the stufffy sorts who don't get the concept. "Even on DU"

[omega minimo]

33. #1. Please have some respect. #2 She wasn't "condescending." #3 Have some respect.

[LanternWaste]

34. Respect and social mores dictate...

Respect and social mores dictate that we refer to doctors as Doctor Jones, that we refer to judges as Your Honor, that we refer to elected officials by Mr./Ms. Senator/Councilperson/President, etc.

It's a very basic form of civility and courtesy. Although I do understand that for many people, very basic civility and genteel courtesy are old-fashioned, or as you say, "But whatever, different strokes and all....".

[omega minimo]

39. Respectfully and well put

JINX!! :toast:

[Thothmes]

63. Your are correct

I was taugh at an early age that elders and seniors are addressed by title.

[EndersDame]

70. But, it is not totatlly improper to...

address a Reverend as Mr.or sir or a non medical doctor Ma'am or Ms. outside of work.When I would run into the 'Rev that preached at my school at the store I said "hi Mr.Moore."

[Maru Kitteh]

87. Reverends and doctors in particular are never "off work."

Given what M.D.'s go through to get their title, I might be inclined to drop my first name altogether and change it to Doctor. I'll be Dr. Doctor Maru Kitteh.

[Raineyb]

96. The general WAS being respectful. It was Senator Boxer who was being rude in this case.

There was no need to basically scold the man who was not doing anything wrong, in front of the camera the way she did. None whatsoever. She could have easily have chosen a more discreet time or a nicer tone in making her request. She did neither and came across as self important. The exact stereotype that feeds right into the RW's sweaty little hands. Not helpful and unnecessary.

[LanternWaste]

113. I imagine we all interpret to one extent or another...

I imagine we all interpret to one extent or another the subjective actions and intents of others-- whether for good or for ill, if in doing so it better validates our own preconceived opinions.

[omega minimo]

162. Raineyb, she didn't scold him. "Nicer tone"? Come on. If you haven't watched the tape, it really

might show how the snippet may seem more a big deal than it was.

Part of the perception difference may be people don't know what the "tone" in the hearing and her voice sounded like already.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=f7893b18-55b2-40f8-a2fc-9a7b905a4756

[Ian David]

8. It's different when you're one of only HOW MANY women in The Senate? n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Yes, it's uncivilized when someone who blows up stuff for a living has their speech corrected.

I'm sorry, I appreciate the need for *a* military (maybe not one more $$$$$$expensive$$$$$$$ than every other military on the planet COMBINED, but, still..) , but cruise missiles, nuclear weapons, and billion dollar stealth bombers are the true mark of an "uncivilized" society.

Barbara Boxer has the right to be addressed properly in the United States Senate, particularly in light of the fact that she's one of the people who authorizes this dude's half a trillion dollar Military Industrial Complex price tag.

[shanti]

59. so what!

she was hardly rude, and simply asked him to address her in another manner. it appears that you have got a problem with that :eyes:

[bluestateguy]

6. Uh huh

And if Gen. Petraeus was testifying in front of Congress and some Democratic Senator called him "David", I take it that would be fine with Jim DeMint?

[Ian David]

9. What if Gen. Pataeus first winked and said, "You can call me Dave." n/t

[dorkulon]

16. Did anyone call her "Barbara"?

No? Okay then.

[LuvNewcastle]

17. I think this is sort of an age thing, too.

A lot of women don't like being called ma'am because it makes them feel old. Diane Feinstein probably wouldn't mind.:)

[gratuitous]

18. Goodness, but Republican teapots are prone to tempests

Maybe the poor dears shouldn't be allowed out unescorted. They all seem to have gotten the vapors from Sen. Boxer giving some of her "sass" to a military officer; like she doesn't know her place! Mercy! Can you imagine someone talking right to a High Church official and not genuflecting?!

[madmom]

19. If people think that was rude and condescending they really need to get out more.

[omega minimo]

26. I watched it without the sound. She even LOOKED pleasant.

[Obamanaut]

41. Barbara Bush had a pleasant demeanor when she spoke of

her beautiful mind.

[omega minimo]

44. Your snide lack of support for one of the best reps Democrats have is = your credibility.

[Obamanaut]

49. See post 36 - "As the Patrick Swayze character..." nt

[NeedleCast]

23. Sucks when we make it this easy for the right to attack us

Pick your fights, and all that.

[omega minimo]

24. Sucks when people can't support a simple, rightful request. The RW will attack ANYTHING &you know it

:thumbsdown:

[EFerrari]

40. LOL. Like the right ever needs an occasion. n/t

[WeDidIt]

64. The general referred to Male Senators as "Senator" and to Senator Boxer as "Ma'am"

He was a sexist mysoginistic bastard. She stood up to him and stared the fucker down.

[dorkulon]

97. "He was a sexist mysoginistic bastard"

You are out of your mind. He called Vitter "sir" about a hundred times.

[bluedawg12]

47. In the military it seems like "sir/ma'am" is fine in reply to an order

on the other hand, it does not take the place of a first person salutation by rank.

It would seem Ok to say, " Yes, ma'am/sir, you did sing bomb-bomb Iran" to a question by McLame.

But, one would not address a ranking officer like that, out of respect one might say, " Senator, you sang bomb Iran off key - just as your did your other policy ideas, sir!"


:evilgrin:

[bluedawg12]

48. In the military it seems like "sir/ma'am" is fine in reply to an order

on the other hand, it does not take the place of a first person salutation by rank.

It would seem Ok to say, " Yes, ma'am/sir, you did sing bomb-bomb Iran" to a question by McLame.

But, one would not address a ranking officer like that, out of respect one might say, " Senator, you sang bomb Iran off key - just as you did your other policy ideas, sir!"


:evilgrin:

[subcomhd]

88. In the marine corps

sir or ma'am is reserved for officers and lower ranked non-coms are answered "yes Sargent" "no sargent", etc.

"Don't call me sir/ma'am, I work for a living," is the wonderfully class-conscious reply of a drill Sargent to new recruits in boot camp when they mis-apply the titles.

[wroberts189]

50. When I was in the Army it was a mortal sin not to salute a passing officer.

And dealing with a General was something to be avoided.


Our military is under the command of a civilian government. Proper respect is due to the Good Senator.

[Obamanaut]

57. Ma'am or Sir, if delivered without an eye roll, is proper respect.

To make a point of requesting to be called by a title instead, in a public forum, with cameras rolling, reporters taking notes, etc - is simply posturing in an attempt to "put the upstart in his place."

She knows she's a senator, he knows it, the whole nation knows it. The point was to belittle the general.

[wroberts189]

61. I doubt she bruised the General's ego. nt

[omega minimo]

69. "The point was to belittle the general." That's completely false. SHE HAS THE RIGHT

Deal with it.

[Obamanaut]

74. She has the right. OK. But she didn't have the common courtesy

one might expect from a senator to make the request privately. Inasmuch as he was in fact speaking with respect (sir and ma'am are not rude or disrespectful), but not using a term she "prefers", she returned his courtesy with discourtesy. Fail.

Deal with it.

[omega minimo]

76. That's not up to you.

Deal with it.

[Obamanaut]

77. Nor you. nt

[omega minimo]

78. You're the one making demands of her! Gotta be "right" even tho you're wrong!!

That post didn't even make SENSE :rofl:

[Obamanaut]

79. You said "That's not up to you" Response "Nor you" Not that hard

to understand. It means it's not up to either one of us. We will not be able to modify the behavior of a power hungry attention seeker who is maneuvering into position for reelection next year. We will not be able to make that person, or any person, able to discern what is respectful discourse.

And now, I bid you a respectful good night ma'am.

[omega minimo]

80. I never said it was up to me or demanded as you did. How fucking bizarre.

[joeybee12]

55. And if a male senator asked to be referred to as Senator...

...we would be hearing nothing of this. A**ho*es.

[Hello_Kitty]

72. No, if it were a Democrat we would

If a REPUBLICAN male or female did it, it would be A-OK.

[alfredo]

56. did the general address the male senators as Senator or Sir?

[dorkulon]

62. Both (nt)

[trumad]

71. Yes he did...

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.LiveStream&Hearing_id=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074

[hayu_lol]

82. The only correct way to address a Senator...

is to call them Senator. Generals know this. Barbara was correct in her correction.

[Obamanaut]

118. Actually, that is not the only correct way to address a senator. On

the other very long DU thread on this topic there is a post that even gives a reference (link) to accepted forms of address, and here it is (with my thanks to the other DUer)

The guy wasn't doing anything improper. She was perfectly free to tell the guy that she preferred another form of address, but she didn't need to scold him--and that's why she's taking heat. Perhaps she would have been better off to have one of her staffers tell his people (and anyone else who testifies before a committee she sits on) of her preference BEFORE the cameras start rolling. The whole preparation for testimony process is a long one--there was time and enough back-n-forth emails to make that happen.

http://www.tradoc.army.mil/cong/faqs.htm#11

11. How do I verbally address a Senator or Congressman or a Congressional staff member?

“Sir” or “Ma’am” works for most everyone, but more specifically --

House: Congressman or Congresswoman; Representative;

Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am

Senate: Senator, Sir, or Ma’am

Committee Chair: Mr. Chairman or Madam Chairman, Sir or Ma’am

Ranking Member: House: Congressman or Congresswoman;

Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am

Senate: Senator, Sir or Ma’am

Staff Member: Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am




http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5880701&mesg_id=5881342

[Arkana]

83. Jim DeMint is a fool.

[Beacool]

91. I stand by my position on a previous post.

I think that Boxer was rude and petty. She interrupted the general and wasn't even very polite about it.

If she were not one of "our" senators we would be smacking her down mercilessly.

:shrug:

[omega minimo]

94. .

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=f7893b18-55b2-40f8-a2fc-9a7b905a4756

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

110. Aside from your intentionally disgusting term, the gen. called her "Madame Chair" throughout his

reading of his written statement into the record. He followed Sen. Landrieu who repeatedly and consistently called Senator Boxer "Madame Chair" during her testimony. The gen. was seated directly behind her and couldn't have missed that.

Whatever the gen.'s habits, customs or intentions, the Senator would rather be called "Senator" than "ma'am" and politely advised him of that. He politely complied.

If only you could show some courtesy and drop your repellent "crotch" routine.

The gen. has returned from serving Petreus in Iraq. Here's hoping he can survive in the Army Corps of Engineers.

Let's also hope that New Orleans can survive this new round of delays on restoring wetlands and storm protection for the people of LA. Senator Boxer pointed out that the body passed a LAW in 2007, requiring certain milestones be in place, which have not been met. One of those was a task force, which has not been formed yet, two years later.

She is one of our best Democratic senators, who chairs this committee and is very concerned about the safety of the America people affected by the Corps ponderous process.

She was asking, "Why has this (a "critical report") been delayed" when she felt it necessary to point out IN THE SENATE IN A HEARING, AS CHAIR, that it is appropriate and her preference to be called Senator.

This whole pretense of basing an opinion on what's right for the military or whether the gen. meant whatever, is totally IRRELEVANT.

As is your suggestion somehow that she was "demanding respect" -- which is only "freely given" -- by asking him to use her correct title. It seemed the general understood where he was and honored the protocol of the senate, after being reminded of it.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subcomhd]

112. Yeah, that's logical.

So, having heard Landrieu call her "Madame Chair" the general should have known not to call her "ma'am" because she preferred "Senator."

Well, all right then.

[omega minimo]

114. Didn't say that.

[subcomhd]

116. yes you did and you contradict yourself

"He followed Sen. Landrieu who repeatedly and consistently called Senator Boxer "Madame Chair" during her testimony. The gen. was seated directly behind her and couldn't have missed that."

So whatwas that supposed to mean?

Also. You said he switched back and forth between "Senator" and "Sir" for the male senators but stuck to "ma'am" with Boxer - and that was offensive. But then you undermine your own argument by pointing out he called her "Madame Chair" in his statement. So it turns out he did, in fact, call her the same thing Landrieu had. He used two words for the men and two for the woman.

.

[omega minimo]

151. Fighting is stupid, esp. when you're wrong

I did not say "having heard Landrieu call her "Madame Chair" the general should have known not to call her "ma'am" because she preferred "Senator." "

"You said he switched back and forth between "Senator" and "Sir" for the male senators but stuck to "ma'am" with Boxer - and that was offensive."

I asked several times if he had done that. There was no definitive answer. I have since looked at the video up through his testimony, which followed Senator Landrieu. That is what I am referring to today, since watching up to a certain point. The male senator's questions are later in the video.

Yes, he did refer to her as Madame Chair from his written statement. While answering her questions he did not. He called her "Ma'am," until she asked him to call her Senator.


Here are the links if you would like to watch it

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=c7026be1-802a-23ad-4fa3-4c8ed0b6d074


http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=f7893b18-55b2-40f8-a2fc-9a7b905a4756

[EFerrari]

119. This exchange took place in the Senate, not in combat

and he brought up her crotch, she didn't. That's really her point.

There was no need to invoke her gender when there was a perfectly good neutral title sitting there waiting to be used.

Maybe the good general has spent too much time in combat.

[subcomhd]

120. He brought up her crotch?

WTF are you talking about?

[EFerrari]

123. I'm saying that bringing up a woman's gender in a public setting

isn't a good idea. It's mostly done to undercut her authority. Maybe this officer wasn't thinking about that at the time but in effect, that's what happens.

[subcomhd]

125. he didn't bring up her gender, again

WTF are you talking about? Are you saying the use of "sir" or "ma'am" is to "bring up that person's gender."

Please don't tell me that is what you are saying. Because if it is, I hope you are never exposed to Spanish or a lot of other languages. Your head will explode.

[EFerrari]

126. Yes, he brought up her gender when he called her "Ma'am".

And that's why she was so irritated.

Btw, my first language was Spanish y no aprendi Ingles hasta que fui a la escuela. :)

This gendering in public thing is something the military is clueless about. In most arenas of public life, like say, corporate meetings, the thing to do if you want to undercut a woman is to find a way to point to her gender.

That's what Boxer was reacting to.

[subcomhd]

130. entonces

would it be wrong for the general to have referred to Sen. Boxer with the gender specifc personal pronoun "she" if talking to another Senator about a comment or request of Boxer? what about a possessive pronoun? Could he make reference to "her" request. Doing either would by your interestingly broad definition "bring up" her "gender."

[EFerrari]

133. You know, it's just like someone calling you "Sweetie" too many times

in a conversation. The first one may be genuine but the third one is a put down.

And I don't make the rules, I'm just describing them to you. That is what she was reacting to. :)

[subcomhd]

139. Sweety = Ma'am?

I fhe had called her "sweety" even once, well THAT would be a news story!

[EFerrari]

142. LOL. They would have had to carry him out, I think.

But as a speech act, it's about the same thing. It may well be that this officer wasn't remembering his briefing or maybe, he's genuinely unaware of this dynamic. I don't know him.

[Obamanaut]

132. If you didn't learn English until school, you write it extremely well.

This was intended to be a genuine compliment.

[EFerrari]

134. I dropped out at Cal before I finished my English dissertation because the money

ran out. Stuff happens, whatcha gonna do. :)

[Obamanaut]

140. My 40 yr old daughter just earned her master's this year - one class

at a time. Stuff does happen.

[EFerrari]

143. Good for her! Congratulations!

[Obamanaut]

121. Being addressed previously as 'Madame Chair' is fairly gender specific,

and seemed to be acceptable. If not, it did not generate a public rebuke.

[EFerrari]

124. Did she rebuke him? She asked him to call her "Senator".

She didn't say he was derelict for calling her otherwise but expressed her preference.

[subcomhd]

127. yes, it was a rebuke

the I worked hard for it I earned it part made it clear that she didn't believe he was being respectful - therefore it was a rebuke.

[EFerrari]

128. That's probably right. n/t

[Obamanaut]

129. Well, gee. Here we have a general calling a woman "ma'am" and

it has progressed into him bringing her crotch into the conversation. I used "rebuke", and this writer used "hector" which is not a euphemism for penis, but I imagine several of the posters here would think "sir" is (if "ma'am" = "crotch".)

<snip>Few Americans are under the illusion that statesmanship is alive and well in this edition of the Senate, but Boxer's shameful and arrogant display demeans her and the Senate far more than it does the General whom she hectored. Furthermore, it could reinforce many negative stereotypes of feminists as angry and insecure, liberals as imperious elitists, and San Francisco Bay Area residents as anti-military.

By being selfish and unnecessarily antagonistic, Boxer has further poisoned the atmosphere in the Senate and has greatly diminished her own stature and credibility. She should immediately apologize to General Walsh, to her colleagues in the Senate, and to her constituents for her gross disrespect of military personnel and protocol. Only by apologizing - and soon - can the Senator hope to regain respect and avoid being seen as an irrelevant and petty clown.
<link http://tombombadil.newsvine.com/_news/2009/06/18/2944243-shame-on-you-maam-senator-boxer-must-apologize?commentId=7737672

[EFerrari]

131. What a pantload. LOL! The great part of this over the top crap

is that exactly proves Boxer's point. There is a double standard and even in a Senate hearing. She said two sentences that included no personal attack on this poor victim at all and now she has to apologize to the world.

I had no idea that a general officer could be so fragile.

lol

[subcomhd]

135. ok

I don't think she needs to apologize. It probably would be classy if she did so privately to the guy. I think he meant no disrespect - because frankly, in the English Language, the word ma'am is actually a sign of RESPECT.

Yes- she has the right to be called Senator. She should have mentioned it to him privately or had an aid send a little not down there to him while he was testifying.

She looked like a jerk. I don't think she is. I like her and her politics are much better than the state's other Senator or the Bay Area's other "ma'am" DF.

Don't you understand that SHE was the person in authority here? He was the subordinate. Therefore she looked like a bully.

[EFerrari]

141. Women = bullies, Men = Commanding

Titles of respect like "ma'am" and "sir" are also routinely turned inside out as insults -- cf all those movie scenes where big white rednecks call black men "Sir" as a way to humiliate them.

And women and people of color and etc. have to deal with that layer of interaction all the time.

Barbara Boxer got testy with this officer. She didn't call him out. She didn't dress him down. She didn't raise her voice. I submit that the reaction to what she actually did would have been cut in at least half had it been a male Senator. The rest of our crazy uncles do this all the time. When a woman gets irritated and expresses a preference, Katie bar the door. :)

[subcomhd]

144. en realidad

si un Senador (hombre) habia dicho eso a un mujer? I mean really. And I have never heard a racist use "sir" as a way to humiliate blacks. Exactly where are these ironic rednecks? LOL.

Francamente espero que hubiese sido Feinstein.

[EFerrari]

146. I'm trying to think of a movie scene. But they do it all the time.

Not only to humiliate black men but also, younger men. Maybe an example you'd be more familiar with is a movie teacher calling an alumno "Sir" or an officer calling an enlisted man "Sir". It's the same thing.

And I wonder if the Anita Hill testimony is on line somewhere. I betcha we'd find more similar material. Or the Bunnatine Greenhouse testimony where she was outing Haliburton's contracts? Iirc, Pat Tillman's mother was treated less than respectfully by some of the Republicans when she was testifying. You asked. :)

And favor de not get me started on Feinstein.

[subcomhd]

147. OK

I'm guessing that in movies they do that because they can't say what a racist would really say. Calling a black man sir as to humiliate him- while on the surface seeming crude - actually requires at least a minimal understanding of irony.

[EFerrari]

148. My racist brother in law used to call me "our little interpreter"

because he knew the family wouldn't allow him to call me a wetback. Which he would have done although my family is from El Salvador and I was born in Oakland, CA. lol

[Obamanaut]

136. One would think that a senator would be less fragile as well. Surely,

if four simple letters are so offensive, she might have called for a break and quietly, privately suggested a different form of address. But no, it was done with all the cameras rolling.

Here is an excerpt from a post on a similar thread (very long), made by another DUer. Folks going to hearings have this available to them. If the members of congress don't like the content, they should suggest a change.


http://www.tradoc.army.mil/cong/faqs.htm#11

11. How do I verbally address a Senator or Congressman or a Congressional staff member?

“Sir” or “Ma’am” works for most everyone, but more specifically --

House: Congressman or Congresswoman; Representative;

Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am

Senate: Senator, Sir, or Ma’am

Committee Chair: Mr. Chairman or Madam Chairman, Sir or Ma’am

Ranking Member: House: Congressman or Congresswoman;

Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am

Senate: Senator, Sir or Ma’am

Staff Member: Mr. or Ms., Sir or Ma’am

The DU link is posted upthread somewhere.

[EFerrari]

137. 'Way too much drama.

[Obamanaut]

149. Thanks to you and subcomhd, I really enjoyed the last part of this

thread topic. Some disagreement, some pleasantries. Thank you both.

[EFerrari]

150. It is refreshing to be able to just talk to other DUers.

:)

[subcomhd]

156. I just noticed your Galeano quote.

Right on.

[EFerrari]

158. If you like him, here is a great interview he just did on BookTv:

http://www.booktv.org/Program/10604/After+Words+Eduardo+Galeano+author+of+Mirrors+interviewed+by+John+Dinges.aspx

[subcomhd]

160. Gracias EF!

Yeah, I like Galeano. I have to confess that all I have read is Venas Abiertas. That was about three years ago and I have been meaning to get Memoria del Fuego ever since. But now that Espejos is out, I may go get it instead. Thanks again for the vid - now i have something to watch after work.

Que tenga buen dia.

[EFerrari]

161. Placer es mio. Come by the Latin America forum sometime.

We're mostly pinkos in there so, enter at your own risk, lol:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=405

[subcomhd]

157. you are welcome

and thank you

[Liquorice]

117. Let's see... How dare she? Who does this woman think she is? Is she trying to

undermine that guy's manhood? Maybe she is trying to verbally castrate the poor man! She should just accept "ma'am" because that's what this military man wanted to call her! I think this woman is getting a little too big for her britches! She should just be grateful that they let her be a senator at all! :sarcasm:, in case it's not obvious.

[Fleshdancer]

138. bingo. n/t

[subcomhd]

145. Why do old school feminists love that word?

Castrate. Seriously, some strawMAN always ends up being accused of feeling castrated by some woman in these things. Is it meant to be shocking? Does the genital mutilation metaphor work the other way around? Did she perceive him to be performing clitoral circumcision with the word "ma'am"?

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subcomhd]

154. And from a Palin apologist! LOL

That was quite progressive of you to stand up for Sarah Palin and her child-exploiting intimidation campaign against David friggin' Letterman of all people. I saw the pictures from that fire Dave protest. Which one of those progressives were you?

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liquorice]

159. Well, I don't know anything about "old school feminists." The reason

a person would use the word "castration" in this case has more to do with education than age. Educated people understand the Freudian implications of this story... And the hundreds of posts about this subject proves the point.

[subcomhd]

163. Old School wasn't a reference to your age.

It was a reference to your archaic phrasing. I suppose in the early days of the feminist movement it was meant to take people aback? I just thought the 'castration' talk had gone the way of bra burning and that using Freudian imagery went out about the time Henry James passed away.

[omega minimo]

153. Good thing you used the :sarcasm:

:sarcasm: