The number of us who are dicontented and not afraid to say so is growing.

[Political Heretic]

It isn't our fault that our leaders are betraying the American people in their rush to continue sucking off giant corporations and the wealthy elite, in their relentless concern about their own power and political influence, their elections, their money....

As soon as our leaders start putting working class Americans and their children before privileged interests, I'll be more than happy to sing their praises.

But as it stands I'm flat out disgusted with this administration so far, as well as congressional democrats and democratic party leaders. As far as the administration goes, its not that I was confused about the fact that Obama was a moderate - I wasn't.

It's that there are even moderates who wouldn't do some of the things that this administration has done.

At every turn it has cozyed up to powerful business interests,

it has protected capital criminal traitors from every being held accountable for their crimes,

it has legitimized torture by defending the institutions of torture in court (such as extraordinary rendition and secret cia black-houses around the globe)

it has completely capitulated on health care,

thrown gays under the bus,

substituted real economic reform for wall-street approved theatrics aimed almost solely at pacifying an angry public rather than serious changing the corrupt way business is done in this country,

Extended and ESCALATED wars overseas

Went completely silent on EFCA and allowed it to die after promising to strongly fight for it

....and on.....and on.....and on.....


None of the things I listed, with perhaps the exception of serious financial sector reform, are particularly "radical." Many of the things I listed were things Obama promised to honor on the campaign trail. People can apologize as much as they like - the bottom line is Obama as president looks nothing like the Obama he led people to believe he was while campaigning.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

1. You are very astute

and coorect in your observations. I guess I have to say, 'yeah but it's GOT to be better than the alternative" isn't it? :shrug:

[Lex]

8. the alternative guy is not in the equation any longer

so that's a moot point

[scheming daemons]

9. It's not a moot question...

...because if the "discontented masses" end up tearing down this Presidency (as they are apparently trying to do), then we'll end up with a clone of the "alternative guy".

...or probably, worse. Much worse.

[Lex]

10. while I do *not* think they are the same, I do wish I could see more

difference

[George II]

132. More???

It's been FIVE FREAKING MONTHS!!!!

Obama has been left with about the worst mess any president has ever inherited. And you guys want it straightened out in a matter of months? Unrealistic and LUDICROUS!

[Old Codger]

149. Only 5 months

That is not a realistic assessment of this president, I agree that 5 months is too short a time frame to decide whether he is going to end up as a "good" president or not, but he seems to have given up even the veneer of attempting to do as he promised. Now, I am not naive enough to believe campaign promises, but this is a little more than that, the campaign promises he made go deeper than chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, he has folded on almost every front. They are making a big deal out of the FDA controlling tobacco but that is pretty bland when you look at the overall situation in this country. The Dems and this president are caving in on almost all fronts to pressure from the repugs..."THE REPUGS LOST, WE WON" they do not seem to be capable of grasping this simple fact.

[George II]

153. As I said in a post responding to the OP, how about specifics?

It's easy to just present a blanket "he seems to have given up", and he is "caving in on almost all fronts"....

How has he given up and caved in?

[Old Codger]

260. Well

Let see , I guess it isn't giving in or caving to not show the pix that were promised, or to lock the visitors list ALA cheney/bush, he was going to fight for health care reform but has not done much to push a good plan so far, more transparency seems to have become pretty opaque from where I sit anyway.... I don't know that he has "given up" on anything really , but he has pulled back quite a ways from what he was promising and mostly it looks to me like political expediency. Also I did say he"seems " to have given up, he has the power , the "bully pulpit" as it were, he could and should push harder, believe me it will get harder for him to do so as time passes unless he shows right off that he is willing to fight harder for what he claims to believe in. I personally would like to see more pushing and less backing down.

[George II]

355. WTF?

He NEVER (or very rarely) spoke about the Abu Ghraib pictures during the campaign, and NEVER promised to release them
He NEVER spoke about White House visitors' lists, and NEVER promised to release them
He IS pushing for health care reform, how can you say he isn't????? There's a LONG way to go on that issue.

So, you're 0 for 3.

What should he push harder for, how should he push harder, and how specifically (again, that word!) has he "pulled back"?

Easy to make sweeping accusations, much more difficult to address them specifically. We still haven't seen that here.

[femrap]

187. Go ahead....

stay in Denial. It's comfortable there. You don't have to face the Truth of Betrayal.

[Grinchie]

94. Thats the whole point. Corporate America cannot exist with an Active Social conscience.

So why not make this phony one fail and make it look like a mandate?

Even though it may look like this Administration is "Tigthening the Screws", under the thin veneer is that same tired thinking that enabled the Corporate Cabal for the last 80 years.

Nothing can be worse that being afraid of speaking your mind and suppressing the pain of being decieved, but thats how many Americans have been raised.

[kayell]

116. Or...If we really push for what we want in a President, we might get a REAL alternative

If now isn't the time to let Obama and the other "Democrats" know that we really mean what we say we want, when is? They have the power now; we need to let them know we expect them to use it for true democratic principles, and that we won't settle to RepublicanLite.

Do you really believe that it is more important to have 8 years of RepublicanLite than to work towards finally achieving what a REAL Democratic party in charge should be capable of?

[RaleighNCDUer]

154. It seems some people have trouble distinguishing between holding his

feet to the fire and burning at the stake.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

176. LOL

Exactly what I've been thinking- but I've never heard it distilled down to such a distinct and pointed contrast but, yeah, that seems to sum it up nicely. Given the exploding discontent of many of the people towards President Obama here at DU, I'm surprised that we haven't already seen mobs with torches and pitchforks already advancing on 1600 Pennsylvania. Doubtless we should be seeing THAT at any moment now.

[JTFrog]

183. Best reply whole thread.

:thumbsup:

[bertman]

192. That oughta be a DUZY, RaleighNCDUer.

[JuniperLea]

209. Sums it up nicely...

I'm convinced very few of us were actually listening to what the man said during the past election season.

[bc3000]

231. He was supposed to solve all our problems in 100 days

I am beginning to suspect he might not be a God after all. Maybe just a demi-god.

[Lilyeye]

243. Best post in the thread.

[humbled_opinion]

267. To me it seems that some won't be happy until

We are back in the bushes... go figure.

[George II]

354. Yes - we finally have an effective pres. and many "democrats" are doing their best to destroy him

[victordrazen]

291. I knew when he came out for the coporate bailout BEFORE

the election who he was working for. And it ain't us. No one who really wants to exact the kind of changes necessary can make it through the system of monopolistic media and out of control campaign spending. We can only choose between the superficial differences of their representatives.

[George II]

361. You are TOTALLY wrong!!

There was one so-called "corporate bailout" proposed and implemented prior to the election - that of AIG. Obama did NOT come out for it, in fact he was skeptical at the time whether or not it would do what it was intended to do.

So, where do you get your notion that he came out for it BEFORE the election?

If you want to make sweeping accusations about our president, you damn sure better know what you're talking about.

I suspect, based on your post above, that NO ONE would be satisfactory to you as President. As to your specious comments about "monopolitic media" and campaign spending, you prove yourself to be an ill-informed person with an agenda contrary to the well-being of America, perhaps a chronic naysayer who would criticize anything for the sake of criticism.

FACTS before you accuse, PLEASE!!!!

[natrat]

323. by the time the uninformed figure it out it will be too late

not that "we" could do anything anyway that would effect how those bastards in congress act.
Amazing , a coup of staggeringly massive proportions without a shot fired.Incredible.

[George II]

130. Obama IS in the equation...and in a mere 5 months he's done a GREAT job undoing bush's mess

As they say, "Rome wasn't built in a day"!

Too bad the OP is laced with vagueries and NO specifics!!!

[stillrockin]

205. Speaking of a dearth of specifics, just exactly what promises has Obama kept?

[George II]

208. Who's talking "promises"?

The man has been in office about 10% of his entire term. Do you want him to do what bush did and rush into everything without thinking, planning, etc.?

As I said in another post in this discussion, the man has inherited about as bad a situtation as any other president in history (may even INCLUDING FDR, who didn't inherit two wars and world disdain!), he's not going to solve everyone's own personal pet issues in a mere 5 months.

[stillrockin]

213. Pet issues ? How condescending of you.

President Obama has not only not followed through on his campaign promises (yes, promises), but he has backtracked on health care, gay rights, upholding the rule of law, putting an end to renditions, and on ushering in a new era of transparency. Why did FDR follow through on his promises ? It was due to unrelenting public pressure and not because he just happened to get around to it. People did not "keep their powder dry" and hope that he would do the right thing.

No one expects the president to solve all our problems in five months. You are conflating impatience and the realization that our elected leader is showing no signs of living up to his campaign platform. Ignore the fact that our emperor is rapidly shedding his garments if you so choose, but don't denigrate those of us who continue to fight for real change.

[George II]

221. Go back and read his Acceptance Speech of November 4th, okay?

[stillrockin]

226. Empty rhetoric. He has not followed through.

[George II]

242. I followed Obama's campaign very closely, watched as many of his speeches...

....and read many of his press releases. Then after the election I followed his appointments and watched most of his press conferences.

NEVER did he ever say he would have all the ills of our country, our world, our economy, etc. resolved by June 22, 2009.

[stillrockin]

264. OK, now you're just being willfully obtuse.

[George II]

281. Explain please....

...so when was it that he promised to complete all his campaign promises by June 22?

[stillrockin]

294. see previous response

[George II]

307. Hmmmm....

...you make a statement (or inference) and when asked to explain you respond with a misguided insult. I'll take that as an acknowledgement that you mispoke about Obama not fulfilling his campaign promises.

[stillrockin]

327. That would make as much sense as anything else you've written.

[George II]

348. Thanks for the acknowledgement and compliment...

Go back a few posts and see if you can answer the question, ok? Don't come back without a sensible answer.

Thanks again.

[stillrockin]

356. Sensible is ending this back and forth.

You are willfully dense and your stale arguments are mind-numbingly illogical.

And you're welcome. I'll be here all week! Try the veal!

[George II]

367. I'm a vegetarian and a PROUD Democrat (a two-time elected Democrat at that!)...YOU????

[George II]

280. YET! But he still has about 89% of his FOUR YEAR TERM remaining!!!!

This isn't bush we're talking about here, who would welcome having the next 3-years 7-months off, but Obama's different.

[George II]

207. Deleted - responded to wrong post

[kath]

214. "vagueries"??????

wtf?

[Chan790]

263. The OP was rather specific...

and it's not what he can fix in 5 months or 5 years...he's gone about-face on the issues that matter to the people who elected him...we voted for him for greater transparency, for an end to the Bush war crimes, for health care and labor reform...he's abandoned his positions on those issues vocally and repeatedly...it needs no period of time to pass before condemning such galling quislingry. Frankly, if he simply did the things he said he would, I could give a damn about the other 1,000,000 messes the Bush regieme dumped in his lap.

If we have an agreement based on a promise and as soon as you uphold your end of the deal (by electing me), I say "well, I'm not going to do what I promised you I would", do you really mean to suggest that you feel you should wait more than 5 months before calling me a liar? If so, I do mean to imply that like your namesakes King George II Hanover of England and George Walker Bush, that you're a fool.

He's well on his way to being a one-termer. Criminy, I wish he'd find some sack and fight back. He won and the GOP is still eating his motherf^&king lunch. I do wonder if John Boehner and Mitch McConnell ever let him cast his gaze upon the glass case they're clearly keeping his nuts in.

[George II]

282. Tune in to CNN, MSNBC, or read the news...

He HAS ended the bush war crimes - he closed the torture camps, stopped all bush-like "interrogations" and has a date for closing Guantanamo and withdrawing combat troops from Iraq.

He HAS addressed health care and labor reform and has presented his proposals. He has NOT "abandoned his positions" on them.

Yes, you're right - to you and other DUers it did not need any period of time to pass before condemning such "galling quislingry", you guys started on January 21.

WHEN did Obama say "I'm not going to do what I promised", and how did he say that?

If the GOP is "eating his motherfucking lunch" (you can say that here, and you're talking about Obama standing up? Hah!) they're going to dry up and blow away since they're not eating very much.

[HughMoran]

298. no, he has NOT done an about-face

fucking liars belong on ignore - bye.

[Chan790]

353. mutual. n/m

[George II]

362. Disgusting how negative people can be at times about the best person we've had....

...as President in a LONG time, isn't it?

Amazing how the negativity reeks around here sometimes, belying their claims to being "democrats"!

[Cherchez la Femme]

319. You've provided not one single instance of Obama's doing "a GREAT job

undoing bush's mess"
Not one.
Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Color me surprised.
Not. :eyes:

The only proof you proffer is to state the shortish time he's been in office!
That, somehow, is "undoing bush's mess"?!

Yer kidding us, right?


Not enough time in office eh? I'll grant you that, he's not been in office an awfully long time, but what "undoing" has he actually done? Instead of 180 degree reversals of the immoral, unlawful Republican/Conservative/Bush/Cheney horrors mentioned below (same goes for others I've not had room to mention), our Democratic president and his hand-picked people have had plenty time enough to 'brainstorm'. as it were, and put together virtually the same (if not worse!) arguments and advocation for the continuation of the legion foul, dishonorable and unlawful Republican iniquities


So, what did Progressives and even moderate Democrats vociferously protest against these past long eight years that are still being advocated by the O'DOMA administration?
For a good old start, all the way back to the Magna Carta (until of late) let's look at Habeas Corpus under President Obama as Greenwald documents
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/11/bagram/

I'll put this info in a lower post -- this is too long as it is. However, seeing how O'DOMA is actually edging out Bush hisasholeself on destroying Habeas Corpus, it's worth a read -- and the entire Greenwald post is a definite bookmark!

Change? Hope?
The only Change I've truly wondered if I've seen --and I surely Hope I'm wrong-- in these past (at least) 8+ years is the change in ideology that, perhaps by being the 'sole superpower', our presidents perhaps are more acting like World Police (or worse: Dictators!) instead of helpful, wise, beneficent, peace-loving, live-and-let-live ideologues
which is what they seem to prefer to actually think of themselves as, their behavior (bombing, wars, bases in just about every country, warheads pointed everywhere, etc.) belies this.


Let's talk some more Change and Hope -- actual examples, not pathetic, empty excuses:

How's about that FISA vote? Or the continuation of corporate bail-outs and on top of it now cutting programs for the needy? Bush didn't dare cut that much in Federal programs (that I can recall, although he and his compadres sure stuck it to the Veterans & their benefits *Support the Troops, yay!), although I'm sure if he had more time in office he would have... the way he hemorrhaged money he would have had to.

Is robbing from the poor and giving to the rich the New, American, Bipartisan Way?
ZOMG, FSM help us ...with extra helpings!
RAmen!

It may indeed be Change, albeit in the wrong direction; but it sure doesn't foster Hope, bub-ula.

What about "Transparency": for just a few examples refusing to release additional Abu Ghraib et. al. torture documents, photos, audiotapes & videos (Some evidence illegally destroyed --I'm not saying Obama did it but still, it is undeniable that some disappeared under his watch and under jurisdiction of his political picks)

Evidence which most of the rest of the world BTW, have already seen.
And how about these secret visitors 'a la the Bush/Cheney era to the White House? Strangely enough, when the Bush/Cheney secretiveness came out Progressive/Democratic sites, including DU, went ballistic; rightfully so)
--you know, the big columned place built, maintained, redecorated/improved upon and altogether paid for with pride by the populace? The place to house their their own elected employee, their president and his --not yet her-- family? That house isn't HIS house but OUR house, yet we are prohibited to know who visits it.
Crazy.

How about DADT, which he decried and swore to abolish? The same with DOMA in which he and his hand-me-down "loyal Bushie" attorneys from such illustrious academies as Liberty U and BYU
which he strangely was glad to get!
--This from the self-appellated gay people's 'most fierce advocate'!-- :puke:

No matter what he says or what he does about DOMA in future, this brief has ruined any chance of DOMA geting repealed while he's in office. All the Repukes need do is point to that brief and what argument can be made?

With such fierce, advocating best friends; really, who needs enemies?


Not enough?
How about Rendition? Still, secret, black-ops prisons; still continued from the last regime? Out of control CIA who seem to write their own rules (such as they are) and are immune to the consequences of their actions?
Advocacy of women's rights and equality has fallen by the wayside, compared to his campaign promises.
Or his cabinet/post/etc. picks, hardly a Progressive Democrat or LGBTQ choice is to be seen. Indeed, they are conspicuous by their extreme rarity if not absence.
If you like DLC and a smattering of Repukes however... this place is for you!
Speaking of which, what of the many Bushie/Republican hires and appointments, not to mention those who were primary actors and decision makers who created many of the travesties we're presently embroiled in? Were they hired because they've 'done their worst' so the only way they can go is up? (I wouldn't bet on that.)
All while quite a few dedicated, honest, educated (especially in their field), hard working and knowledgeable of their pertinent position, although less well-connected (i.e. UnRepublican and non-corporatist) civil servants and civilians --or even *Gasp!* teh Gay!-- are available and willing but utterly ignored.

Strictly on the home front, what about mountain top mining or even, amazingly, legislating that those in custody can still be questioned even when they have requested an attorney
...and who's to say how long it will 'just happen' to take for that called-for attorney to get to their client? Heh heh, ain't the justus system great? :evil:

Here's a good one: Withdrawal, as he campaigned, from these incredibly expensive preemptive wars. The wars he professed to be against, but that was then. If he still felt that way, logically then follows their de-funding, in whole or in part, and of course the pulling out of our troops. At least from Iraq, especially when our troops mainly cower in the Green Zone; their only duties seem to consist mainly of convoy protection and pulling midnight home invasions based on "intelligence" that appears to be quite often faulty.
Hell, is it any wonder the vast majority of Iraqis don't freaking WANT us there?
Yet there seems to be a major problem regarding withdrawing our troops, perhaps due to the overdosed testosterone ("These colors don't run" Hoo-ya!), fantasy based old never-seen-combat-before generals over there helped mightily along by their neonazi enlistees and with the bombastic brown-nosing of t he patriotic propaganda instilling, talking points providing, corporately owned American Conservative talking-heads.
Hoo-boy.

List is SO long, but I gotta ask; how's about the non-abolition of torture, reserving for himself to use as he wills in future, violating the many signed accords & treaties which should be Constitutionally up holdable (sic?).
Where, one might legitimately ask, is the rule of law? Not a mere, breakable political promise, but he swearing an oath (on Abe Lincoln's own bible no less) to uphold the Constitution
But if those were actually held to (Oaths, bah!) he would have to actually prosecute those who themselves didn't protect and defend the Constitution and on top of that, serially broke U.S. laws no matter how 'elite' these law-breaking U.S. citizens happen to be. Well, he'd have to, that is, if this truly were a bona fide, not a purported and promoted classless society. :rofl:
However, due to recent precedents which the Pres just happened to create, Why O'DOMA might think to himself, should I worry about not defending and protecting this Constitution? I'm a lawyer, and a president and I just created a precedent! Yay!
Unfortunate answer: Republicans will still try to destroy him, no matter how hard he tries to please and appease them. But SHHH... it seems to be a big, well-kept super secret!)

How hopeful is it that O'DOMA is too cowardly to, as every other president (at least in modern times has done), to hire his own states DA's (USA's, for you sticklers), instead keeping the 'loyal Bushies' Liberty U all-stars -- strange, but Obama appears to have put himself on the wrong side:
Must be this 3D, multi-level chess!
That, or masochism.
I guess it's no matter that those state DA's (USA'S) focused on ignoring if not outright letting Republican criminals off scot-free and targeting, however unfairly, Democrats.
...but I guess that depends on your Party and your morals, eh??
See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5804862
Note the date and kindly note where this was posted, too.
In a sane world it would be very difficult comprehending why Don Siegelman is in even worse off than he was before the election.

Where's the Change? How does this all evoke Hope?
So please, George II, give us your examples of all Obama has done. Please give us your proofs of actual Change in a clear, positive, progressive, democratic difference

sans the sleight of hand swap of "not enough time!"

Cause, other than a couple minor things, I just don't see it!



If one vilifies one certain group of people then praises a different one when they do the same things,
there is only one fitting word for that:

Hypocrisy.

News flash: That is the reason for so much discontent, and while Obama et. al. spend much of their
time actively following in the Bush/Cheney footsteps, no matter if it's been 5 months or 4 years, there
will be much discontent.

Whether you like it or not, you best get used to it because it's not going to stop until things improve. Markedly.
Better yet, get back to principles instead of a cult of personality



Edited for spelling, it's way late, grammar sux. Scuse me.

[Cherchez la Femme]

322. Greenwald article I mentioned

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/11/bagram/


Saturday April 11, 2009 08:41 EDT
Obama and habeas corpus -- then and now


"Back in February, the Obama administration shocked many civil libertarians by filing a brief in federal

court that, in two sentences, declared that it embraced the most extremist Bush theory on this issue --

the Obama DOJ argued, as The New York Times's Charlie Savage put it, "that military detainees in

Afghanistan have no legal right to challenge their imprisonment there, embracing a key argument of

former President Bush’s legal team...the Obama DOJ filed its brief were Yemenis and Tunisians

captured outside of Afghanistan ... and then flown to Bagram and locked away there as much as six

years without any charges. That is what the Obama DOJ defended, and they argued that those

individuals can be imprisoned indefinitely with no rights of any kind -- as long as they are kept in

Bagram rather than Guantanamo."
*clip*
"Judge Bates made clear how identical are the constitutional rights of detainees flown to Guantanamo

and Bagram and underscored how dangerous is the Bush/Obama claim that the President has the

right to abduct people from around the world and imprison them at Bagram with no due process of any

kind"
*clip*
"As Judge Bates noted, the prisoners shipped to Bagram actually have even fewer rights than the

Guantanamo detainees did prior to Boudemiene, because at least the latter were given a sham

Pentagon review (the CSRT tribunal), whereas the U.S. Government -- under both Bush and Obama --

maintain that Bagram prisoners have no rights of any kind.
In the wake of Judge Bates' ruling that foreign detainees shipped to Bagram at least have the right to a

hearing to determine their guilt, what is the Obama DOJ doing? This:
The Obama administration said Friday that it would appeal a district court ruling that granted some

military prisoners in Afghanistan the right to file lawsuits seeking their release. The decision signaled

that the administration was not backing down in its effort to maintain the power to imprison terrorism

suspects for extended periods without judicial oversight. . . .
...Tina Foster, the executive director of the International Justice Network, which is representing the

detainees, condemned the decision in a statement.
“Though he has made many promises regarding the need for our country to rejoin the world

community of nations, by filing this appeal, President Obama has taken on the defense of one of the

Bush administration’s unlawful policies founded on nothing more than the idea that might makes right,”

she said."
*clip*
"ACLU's Jonathan Hafetz (said) Bagram's population has shot up, and it's become in some sense

"the new Guantanamo". . . . And so what you have is you have a situation where the Bush

administration, was free to, and the Obama administration will continue to be free to, create a prison

outside the law." *end quote*
"The Obama DOJ is now squarely to the Right of an extremely conservative, pro-executive-power,

Bush 43-appointed judge on issues of executive power and due-process-less detentions. Leave aside

for the moment the issue of whether you believe that the U.S. Government should have the right to

abduct people anywhere in the world, ship them to faraway prisons and hold them there indefinitely

without charges or any rights at all. The Bush DOJ -- and now the Obama DOJ -- maintain the

President does and should have that right... It was, after all, one of the centerpieces of the Bush

regime of radicalism, lawlessness and extremism."


***Emboldened in original***

[Cherchez la Femme]

331. Regarding last line

I meant "Emphasis", not "Emboldened"

...although it's a perfectly cromulent word... :grin:


Pondering upon it, I probably got "Emboldened" from The Simpsons TV show via that old guy who 'discovered' the town of Springfield (the statue guy) who said something 'Embiggens us all'

It's not my fault, my ex was a Simpsons freak, 'twas on at least once a day. I'm a Monty Python fan myself,
but don't get me wrong, I like The Simpsons too -- up until about the 8th time I've seen the same episode and could almost recite the script by rote.

She probably thought the same way about my Monty Python :rofl:

"Emboldened" Gobbledigook?

Appy-olly-loggys for the silliness; I've been up all night & am tres punchy
Guess I'm too old now to pull all-nighters :evilfrown:

[Name removed]

145. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tomreedtoon]

227. I disagree. The Party of NO! is the alternative.

And they are quite active. Remember, they not only want Obama to fail, they want the United States to fail. That way, their rich buddies can pick up the whole thing in a fire sale and turn it into the medieval aristocracy they always wanted to make it.

It suddenly occurs to me that, when Republicans visited those tinpot dictatorships in the Carribean, South America and Asia, they were envious. They want to make the United States that kind of country. And the first step to doing that is to create a whole lot of impoverished people begging for crumbs. That seems to be what they are doing.

[xiamiam]

18. yep..the alternative would've hastened my ultimate destiny..this, wishing and hoping

is just aging me more rapidly..

[zipplewrath]

125. Kucinich?

One of my problems with the "other guy" defense is that it is in some way a false dicotomy. Many folks were predicting that just about any democratic nominee was going to get elected. So in that sense the "other guy" discussion could be as much about whether the PUMA's were right, or if Kucinich should have been taken more seriously. One of my thoughts lately has been "if this is what we were gonna get, we shoulda had Richardson".

Progressives/liberals/leftists/whatever are forever being told that they have to elect "moderates". This was a situation where many of us felt we could have elected a good ole flaming liberal and had a real chance. And the state of the populace, and the state of the economy would have empowered them to make real substantive change, not just a more competent set of moderate policies, or a rerun of Clinton/DLC. So some around here might understand that Obama is letting a good opportunity go by. We feel like it was a real chance for change and we hoped he was the guy who would do it. It's not so much that I thought he was a flaming liberal. I just thought he was far more left of center than this.

[George II]

133. Face reality...

Kucinich will NEVER be President. Why does his name keep getting dragged into these anti-Obama and anti-Democratic discussions?

[zipplewrath]

139. Well hold on

That was just one of the names I mentioned. The point is that this time around a far left nominee could possibly have been elected, so the comparison to Bush isn't the only point of comparison. It is as much a case of "we coulda had Richardson" as "it coulda been McCain".

[George II]

141. The subject of your post was "Kucinich?"

[zipplewrath]

143. Is that all you read?

You were responding to the subject title?

[George II]

160. No, I read your entire post, but ...

...then I asked why Kucinich's name is always dragged into these discussions. After all, that WAS the subject of your post, wasn't it?

[zipplewrath]

177. because he's far left

He was the far left candidate.

[NorthCarolina]

179. He is Far Left as judged against the bulk of Dems in Congress and the Senate, but I disagree

that he is Far Left of a majority of American's.

[zipplewrath]

185. Not sure how to measure

The majority of Americans are probably spread over a pretty wide political swath. He is probably way left of the most right leaning of the majority, but not so from the left side of the majority. The real problem is that there is no "majority" in a sense but merely coalitions of minorities. He's not in the most "left" minority, but he's along way from the most right.

[RaleighNCDUer]

334. How to measure? How about game show style -

I remember in the campaign there was a labor forum debate, six or eight of the candidates, including Kucinich. Speaking to a room full of unionists, all the candidates spoke and got applause, to one degree or another. Kucinich was the ONLY one to get cheers for what HE said.

Union workers - dare I say 'salt of the earth'? - cheering for the supposed far-left candidate. I remember the union guys breaking protesters' heads during Vietnam protests - it is not a demographic made up of radicals.

That's ONE measurement.

[ChiciB1]

270. I Don't Even Think He's "Left"... Never Did! He's Certainly Much To The

RIGHT of me. But the thing that is bothering me the most is that he doesn't seem willing to go to the mat for us! I wish he would just stand up and say something like... HEY, YOU GUYS, I'm POTUS and let's get this stuff off and running!!

Sure, there's a LOT to be done, he's done "some" things, but most are small... the big stuff looks like "puffpillow talk"! I don't mind him not yapping about IRAN, but I sure think he's needs to be MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE when it comes to Health Care!

Is it Rahm, I don't know... I do know I'm NOT a happy camper right now!

[seaglass]

326. Obama is a consensus builder, not a fighter. n/t

[pasto76]

165. NO, because the Vote ACTUALLY CAME DOWN TO MCCAIN OR OBAMA

not richardson, not romney, not clinton. No one else. Obama or McCain.

[konnichi wa]

173. The fact that we could have done worse does NOT mean we could not have done better.

'schmucko' indeed...
:eyes:

[George II]

364. But we didn't (in your eyes) But better in most Americans' eyes would have to be perfection..

.....which doesn't exist.

[zipplewrath]

178. After

It came down to that AFTER the other choices were eliminated. Those other choices were suggesting often that he was just this far right leaning, they turned out to be right. The complaint is that he is further to the right than he campaigned. Countering that he's not as right leaning as McCain isn't the point.

[John K]

288. what short memories you folks have

You think that Obama just skated into the White House because it was a democrat year? What a joke. For those of us who sweat-ed and bled to get by Hilary and then dealt with all that Palin mania etc... its kind of early to throw in the towel. Obama understands that this is a marathon not a sprint. I don't agree with everything that he has done, but I didn't expect to. If he gets the economy to come back and a reasonable health care plan, that would be enough work for the whole term. Take a chill pill folks.

[George II]

365. Hallelujah! Thank you so much - wish people here could understand that concept!

[NorthCarolina]

159. Yes, America is Far Too Stupid collectively, to elect a man the caliber of Kucinich

it really is a shame too.:cry:

[RaleighNCDUer]

184. Face reality -

If Kucinich didn't look like Kucinich, if he held the same principles and ideals but looked like George Clooney, he WOULD be electable. What makes him unelectable is not his positions, but he media presentation. The American public is ready to reach much further left than it has been in decades, so the media presented him as the funny-looking troll who mentioned UFOs - they NEVER covered his positions because they knew that the majority BACK most of them, and they could never let that happen.

[chimpymustgo]

256. Maybe we should run George Clooney! He IS a real liberal.

[debunkthelies]

217. NEVER?

Never is a very long time, are you a prophet?:shrug:

[HughMoran]

299. Hey, stop picking on the Romulan

:rofl:

[downindixie]

265. Its time for the American people

to act like the Iranian people and hit the streets!

[Autumn]

2. Damn

looks bad on paper. Hang in there it will hopefully get better.

[xxqqqzme]

84. Hang in there? Didn't we all do that for

eight years? Eight years of despair, destruction and depression. I was not an Obama supporter during the primary but once he was the 'presumptive nominee' I was there. I wanted to hope in place of the despair; all the broken parts repaired; the collective spirit of the country lifted. After eight years of lies, secrecy and criminal behavior, we all wanted it to be right again. Very painfully and very reluctantly many of us are realizing it is not going to happen.

I wanted to hope so I voted for the audacity. The hope is waning; the audacity has disappeared.

[Autumn]

128. I understand

and I agree but there is a difference and there is still hope, not in Obama or in most of the Democratic leaders but in us. For eight fucking long years I never heard anyone outside of DU criticize that SOB Bush but I do hear people I know that voted for and supported Obama voicing their displeasure on some of the things he has done. That gives me hope because I know that the people who care about our Country will not shut up and go along with them. If our party and President doesn't listen to us then they will have to steal the next election because I know die hard Dems who are saying he has this one chance to do it right.

[George II]

135. Yes, eight years of despair, destructionand depressiion...and...

...you all want it corrected in a few months. Fantasy

[rainlillie]

201. AMEN!

,

[noiretextatique]

276. it hasn't been 8 years...it's been about 29 years

since the election of ronald reagan. democrats have been vascillated between pathetic enablers and republican-lite since then. i certainly don't expect obama to clean all that up in a few months.

[demwing]

142. You are right. DON'T hang in there. Give up immediately.

You're alternative is so much more constructive and progressive. After all, if you don't try, you'll never fail, and failure is so messy.

Go ahead and pretend a far left candidate would have succeeded where Obama is "failing". That's obviously what the polls show, and what the state contests indicated, right? Far left candidates took office en masse, from one district to the next, all across the country.

Right?

[pasto76]

166. good point

nothing "progressive" about giving up! Especially after five months. (Especially after .05% of the time Bush was in office)

Obama is not a radical, not an activist.

And you know what, he even WARNED us all that his Change will take time. Possibly(hopefully) even a second term.

[George II]

211. That was a big part of his campaign speeches and victory speech....

...that it would take a long time, maybe even more than one term. Sadly many people around here forget that, or they're just too stuck on criticizing and complaining which fogs their ability to think.

[xxqqqzme]

311. Did I say anything about giving up?

My activism did not stop on January 20, 2009. Next month, I go to the CDP E-Board meeting where I sit on the Legislative committee. We begin working on legislation to get rid of the 2/3 budget requirement; reform the initiative/proposition maze; and keep an eye on redistricting in 2010. I work hard locally because I think that is where change happens first. I'm disheartened because I am losing hope that significant change on any level is going to come out of DC.

[demwing]

369. Yes. You are giving up your hope

For slim reason

"I wanted to hope so I voted for the audacity. The hope is waning; the audacity has disappeared"

and Why?

"I wanted to hope in place of the despair; all the broken parts repaired; the collective spirit of the country lifted. After eight years of lies, secrecy and criminal behavior, we all wanted it to be right again. Very painfully and very reluctantly many of us are realizing it is not going to happen."

Why? Because all the broken parts are not yet repaired.

Sad stuff. No wonder you're still adrift in your despair. You set the bar ridiculously high, then tsk tsk tsk when Obama doesn't meet your unreasonable goal.

Obama is doing a very good job under very difficult circumstances. No other candidate could have done better - certainly none of his Democratic primary opponents, and doubly for Kucinich, who may stand on the right side of many of the issues, but has not shown a record of political successes other than getting himself elected to the House.

[pasto76]

163. glad to see all it takes is 5 months of conservative attacks to bring you down

its a microcosm of whats wrong with this country> Some clown had an article "Obama's make or break summer"

doesnt he have 3 more summer after this one?

You people are declaring him a lame duck already!

With supporters like you and many others here, President Obama doesnt need fox news! Plenty of enemies here!

[George II]

220. I observed that last week in a similar discussion (different issue, same attitude)....

....many here at DU are disappointed with Obama because he didn't weave his solutions to the many problems he inherited right into his inauguration speech as if by January 21 we'd be living in Utopia and he could begin vacationing like bush did.

[PSzymeczek]

234. Frank Rich

is absolutely NOT a conservative.

[debunkthelies]

218. And

with me the depression and despair are back, 10 fold.

[laugle]

312. Won't it be funny when

people start saying "I should have voted for Hillary!".........LOL

Well I can dream............my conscience is clear...........

I'm beginning to think Obama has never met a promise he COULD keep...sad.................

[George II]

366. Psssst....she wasn't the Democratic candidate!

[laugle]

368. Pssst..........there was a primary you know, get it????

Another DU genius...........

[FLAprogressive]

3. K&R

[kentuck]

4. I'm not so sure it is "discontent"?

I'm thinking it might be something like resignation? Or nervous anxiety? Or a sadness for what might have been?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

68. As long as we continue to bailout corporations and fight wars, I will be discontented.

K&R

[scheming daemons]

5. No... the number isn't really growing...

Poll after poll shows the same 60% or so approval rating for Obama. 3 out of 5 Americans liked the guy on inauguration day... and the same 3 out of 5 like the guy today.

The other 2 out of 5 are stomping their feet a little louder... but their numbers aren't growing.

If the election were held today, Obama would win by the same or greater margin as he did on election day.

Keep stomping.

I'm not an "apologist", because that implies there is something to apologize for.

Obama's first five months have been outstanding.

[MUAD_DIB]

6. I know. I agree, but some believe that he hasn't done everything yet so let's just throw

up our hands in anger and frustration.

Obama wasn't elected "The King" he has to work through Congress and build a consensus.

[Kaleva]

15. About 90% of liberal Dems approve of Obama

according to one poll I saw.

[FLAprogressive]

28. ignorance is bliss and unfortunately our side possesses it as well.

[Political Heretic]

73. Which only reflects that "liberal dems" means about nothing.

[JDPriestly]

96. I get polled by one of those companies. You get to vote up or down.

You can't comment. The favorable numbers are illusory. I always say that I approve of Obama, but in reality, I'm very unhappy about his presidency. I put down that I approve because I want Obama to do well. So, don't count on those numbers. The polls are not accurate. The questions don't ask for real answers. They limit your responses too much.

[Kaleva]

225. Then it's possible Bush was a rather popular President

People tend to view polls that reinforce their own beliefs very favorably and dismiss those polls that don't.

[armyowalgreens]

17. Please explain to me how it's been outstanding for the left?

He's been outstanding at keeping the majority of americans happy and quiet.

[scheming daemons]

20. "keeping the majority of Americans happy"

You said that like it was a bad thing.


That's his fucking job.

[armyowalgreens]

24. I meant keeping them happy and quiet as in blissfully ignorant.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Action means sacrifice.

[Political Heretic]

40. I don't agree that it is his job.

I believe his job ought to be to look at the Americans who are doing the worst in our country, and address the problems and challenges that they face.

Doing so would put him at odds with the powerful and privileged however, which is why its not being done. The United States has the highest poverty rate of the top twenty industrialized nations in the world. Why isn't that considered tragically embarrassing and humiliating to all of us?

Of that group, we have the highest child poverty rate,
the third highest elderly poverty rate,
the highest infant mortality rate,
the highest income disparity,
and the worst working benefits

Among other indicators. Those are the measurements that, for me, tell me how we're doing as a nation. And by those measurements we are failing. I believe it should be the job of a President and leader not to just keep people placated - because that's what "happy" means in this context - but rather to move government towards greater responsibility for the poor and working class, and leading the public, sometimes even if there is disagreement, along a path that so socially just and economically fair.

[scheming daemons]

46. Those "measurements" are useless in a 5-month time frame

The sample is not sufficient.

You have to see what the progress is in those areas after a few years.



But I'll never convince you. On January 21, all of the problems in this country weren't yet solved... so you started your hissy fit.

[Political Heretic]

55. They're relevant because they establish the problem, and thus should direct policy.

Once again, this isn't about speed is about direction. You keep bringing up the speed argument because its all you've got. It doesn't matter that it has nothing to do with anything that I'm saying. There are not things in progress that are moving to slowly for me. Of the things that are in progress, most of them ought to be completely scrapped because the entire direction is terrible.

It is a fact that we rank dead last in the indicators I mentioned. Of course those things aren't going to change in 5 months, a year or even a single presidency. But what they should do is direct policy. Instead, policy is being directed by special interests, the financial elite and powerful business lobbies, with little to differentiate how politics is done in Washington from the last eight years.

We're not charting a direction to tackle national poverty, nor to restore crushed organized labor - two of the most critical things that must be done to establish a sustainable and equitable economy that can last without collapsing in on itself like our plunder capitalist system is prone to do (at our great expense.) We're not charting a meaningful direction on health care, nor in our foreign policy where military aggression continues to be the accepted status quo, and government secrecy and detention without basic rights, continues to be the norm. Hell, our administration even advocated for their right to continue these practices in court, using a continuation of the Bush adminsitration's arguments.

It's not speed.

It's direction.

[scheming daemons]

58. Bullshit... see post #56

Give some specifics yourself where the DIRECTION is wrong... not the speed.

Give an example where his DIRECTION is the same as the GOP or Bush.


..and don't try "torture"... because that's false. The torture has ended - that's the correct direction. The fact that nobody has been brought up on charges yet is a matter of SPEED, not direction.


...and don't try organized labor... EFCA hasn't been defeated, it just hasn't been passed yet. That's not direction, that's SPEED.

...and don't try the war in Iraq. He isn't bringing the troops out as FAST as you want, but he is starting the draw down. That's SPEED, not direction.


You might believe your own bullshit.... but it's still bullshit.

[FLAprogressive]

60. LOL you are so naive for thinking that torture has ended

in name, maybe. In practice, nope.

[scheming daemons]

62. Please provide evidence

...that waterboarding and other torture has continued after Obama's decree to stop it.


Saying that I am "so naive" is not evidence.


Proof.


Obama says he's stopped it.

There's no evidence that he hasn't.



Prove your claim.

[FLAprogressive]

64. he has left the door open for "enhanced interrogations"

http://www.newsweek.com/id/181281

[scheming daemons]

65. So... "door left open" equals "we're doing it"

Gotcha.

:eyes:



ps. The newsweek story doesn't say what you implied it does.

[FLAprogressive]

66. How about "preventive detention"....I bet you're okay with that too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21obama.html?_r=4

[scheming daemons]

70. Strawman.... I'm not "OK" with any of it... never indicated such a thing

But you can keep building your strawmen.

[Political Heretic]

72. No, but "door left open" means wrong direction and bad policy.

[TheWatcher]

100. " Obama says he's stopped it."

THIS is proof?

Because he "says so?"

The Banks are profitable again, because they "say so?"

THIS is what we've been reduced to?

I'm just speechless.

There is no way to break through that.

[ima_sinnic]

105. see "We Still Torture: The new evidence from Guantanamo" in latest Harper's

unfortunately, one must be a subscriber to access the article online, or buy the magazine, to read it.
I will do the naive of DU a favor and write a synopsis, but that will have to wait a bit (later today).

Also in the same issue, the cover article: "Barack Hoover Obama: The best and brightest blow it again."

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

244. wondering if

the proof you seek, if it were put in front of you - before your eyes - if you'd accept it as truth?

[tan guera]

89. OK

Give some specifics yourself where the DIRECTION is wrong... not the speed.

Give an example where his DIRECTION is the same as the GOP or Bush.

**************************
Af-Pak, Bagram, bailouts, "looking forward" instead of prosecuting bushco, no single payer. Those are directions.

Same direction: war, continued torture (force feeding) economic plundering, Clinton cabinet or new "too smart to fail" guys, unprecedented prez powers, states secrets, FISA, Patriot Act....

The list goes on.

[peacetalksforall]

121. I believe you've been fooled. Listen to his words. The torture has only been

ended at Guantanamo. He only said Guantanamo. And that is because of legal issues beyond his reach. Even the Bush administration had to let watch groups in there. Even the UK people are making demands. The other prisons are secret and there is ABSOLUTELY NO INDICATIONS THAT TORTURE HAS ENDED IN THOSE PRISONS. And there may be a dozen or more of them - with some torture outsourced to the host country.

There is no legal CONSIDERATIONS for those people.

The theft that has descended down on us by our own people is nothing compared to what we are doing to 'Mexicans'* and Moslems in secret.

* Mexicans is the umbrella word for Latinos because stupid people in this country only believe that legals and illegal Latinos, that they hate so much, all came from Mexico. Just as they believe that all Moslems in prisons being tortured by the U.S. of America (through the leadership of the Executive, Legislative, Military, and Intelligence owned by the corporations and led by crooks and their barons in high places) are guilty.

I ask you to correct your position - he only said Gitmo.

[tan guera]

284. Corrected and I knew that, but didn't put it in my post! :-)

[alarimer]

168. He's establishing a pattern.

One that does not bode well for the rest of the term. Keeping the powder dry. I hate to say it, but I think the Democrats will lose seats in the next election if they are not bolder.

I wanted to believe the Obama was more like FDR, someone who bucked the system: the bankers and the wealthy elite. They still think of him as a traitor to his class. That's a badge of honor, in my book. Obama has not been bold enough. His advisors are all from Wall Street and they adhere to the failed Chicago school of economics. If he does not become bolder, he will fail.

[debunkthelies]

222. K&R

I agree it's not the speed, it's the "Rogues Gallery' of enablers and advocates of Bush policies, that have been appointed to places of power in the Administration that concerns me.

[truedelphi]

87. The window of opportunity was in the first 100 days.

No one in their right mind would expect anyone to be able to solve the last eight years of what Bush/Cheney (et) al have done to our nation.

But in keeping the equivalent of the Bush economic policies in place, Obama has locked the country into a disastrous way to "recover" and "reform." Oh he has made Wall Street a bit happy, but since the manner by which Main Street has been forced to hand over more than 10 trillion bucks to Wall Street doesn't contain much in the way of oversight, why wouldn't there be happiness for those on Wall Street.

However, the reason those of us who are critical of Obama bitch and moan is because we understand that this "faux recovery" is simply going to stave off a massive collapse some two or three years from now. Unless we discover gold or huge reserves of oil, or pigs learn to fly, or whatever.

[RaleighNCDUer]

212. So his super duper secret plan is to collapse the economy right before

the next election?

Do you REALLY believe that?

[HamdenRice]

127. He is supposed to keep a tiny minority of far left keyboard warriors happy, and most Americans not?

You've perfectly summed up the way a lot of solipsistic internet keyboard warriors think.

I'm seeing more and more posts that are openly contemptuous of democracy -- people writing that just because the vast majority of people want something and Obama is delivering (eg health care reform with a public option rather than "starting from scratch), that's not enough.

I'm puzzled why anyone is supposed to take such a position seriously.

[armyowalgreens]

272. A tiny minority of far left keyboard warriors support single payer?

Think again. There are a lot of people that support single payer. That includes a large portion of doctors in the US.

As I have explained elsewhere, the majority of Americans don't know current events. They don't know about most of the problems in the US. And they certainly do not know how to fix them.

Therefore, what is the right thing to do is not necessarily the most popular thing to do.

[Political Heretic]

30. The first five months have been oustanding for who?

Not working class families or their children, and not those who died today overseas. Not for those who believe that criminals should be held accountable for their deeds, or who believe the relentless assault against organized labor is ruining our country. Not for gays. Not for those of us who knew our aggressive wars around the world were unjust, illegitimate and profit-driven.

Polls don't tend to represent the voiceless. Not too many single moms on welfare in opinion polls. They are excellent indicators of what the over privileged think. I'm not as interested in that.

The number is growing. I didn't say we would all wake up tomorrow and see a publicly unpopular president. I'm not sure that I would "want" that. What I really want is for the Democratic party, in all branches of government, to lead instead of follow, and to stand beside working Americans instead of standing with the privileged elite.

It's not a good Omen if everyone is sitting at home "satisfied" and that's not something to boast about. We have colossal problems in this country that continue to get worse. It would be better if people were in the streets under a belief that we must pressure and force politicians to work in our interests, not casually assume that they will because we "like them" or they "sound good."

[scheming daemons]

42. He's working on all those things....

You have to get over your wanting of a "microwave" presidency.


Things don't happen overnight.


He's done an amazing amount of good for 5 months on the job. It takes time to complete an agenda this big when the problems are this large.


But it will be completed... it's on the right trajectory.

[FLAprogressive]

48. it's about the direction, not the time

I don't care about what he has or has not "done"....it's about the direction he's going in.

The same Wall Street bankers are controlling our economy and the treasury.....the wars have no end.....his DOJ is defending DOMA and Bush policies....like torture, wiretapping, etc.

[Political Heretic]

49. He's not working on any of those things. This isn't about SPEED its about DIRECTION.

My issue is not with the speed at which good thing are happening.

My issue is with the direction of this presidency. You and I don't agree that its on the right trajectory, and I challenge you to give a detailed explanation of what, exactly, you think makes this trajectory the "right" one, short of the fact that its Obama and he's a Democrat and thus we must defend what they are doing even when its ridiculous and short-sighted...

[FLAprogressive]

51. Don't worry.....the true believers will continue their screed about how we "want everything now"

it's the only argument they have.

[Political Heretic]

57. It really is the only argument they have, because the administration has got nothing to show

for itself when it comes to addressing the core needs of American society, economically and socially.

So the only argument people can't make is, "its only been 5 months!"

The problem is, the administration has done a great deal in 5 months. More than problably most presidents of the past. But what's been done has not been in the interests of working Americans and their families. It's been in the interests of the Military-Industrial Complex, in the interests of powerful Washington figures who would otherwise be facing criminal investigation, in the interests of the financial elite and Wall Street, in the interests of the Health Insurance lobby, in personal self interest of reelection, and on and on....

[snappyturtle]

161. YES! A lot has been done in 5 months....and not for the common man's

benefit. We've only been given a little. The credit card bill is an example.....too little and doesn't really stop bad practices. I look at it this way. President Obama inherited a mess...true. HOWEVER, he knew this, as we did, long before he won the election. He promised that the old ways of operating in Washington, D.C. would change. I don't see the 'direction' changing either.

[scheming daemons]

56. Ok specifics...

- The trajectory on Iraq is correct. We're beginning the process of pulling out, but it's not on a TIMETABLE of your liking.

- The trajectory on getting out of the Bush recession. The clusterfuck on wall street that was the results of massive de-regulation is about to changed so it doesn't happen again. Just last week Obama announced major new regulations (and returns to old regulations) to prevent what happened from happening again. Again.. right trajectory... wrong SPEED for you.

- Federal benefits provided now for same-sex couples. Step in the right direction (small step, sure)... but again... right trajectory... wrong SPEED for you.

- Cleaning up of GM and Chrysler... with unions now owning majority or plurality of shares in both. It will be a long process to bring these companies back... but the trajectory is correct.

- Restoring America's respect by the rest of the world. If you don't see that this is going in the right direction, then you're simply blind to reality.

- Muslim extermist recruitment is down. The muslim world is finding it much harder to gin up hatred for America right now without Bush as a poster boy. Sadly, "progressive purists" like yourself have no shortage of hatred for Obama's American vision.

Those are just off the top of my head without research.

In each case the trajectory is EXACTLY correct from a liberal democratic point of view.


So don't say this isn't about SPEED.... it's EXACTLY about speed to you.

[FLAprogressive]

59. lol.."federal benefits for same-sex couples" AFTER DEFENDING DOMA.

One small step forward, two giant leaps back.

"The trajectory on Iraq is correct. We're beginning the process of pulling out, but it's not on a TIMETABLE of your liking."

Indefinite occupation is going on the right trajectory?

[scheming daemons]

61. it's not "indefinite occupation"... and you know it...

In the case of Iraq.... "one more day" to you is "indefinite".


It's a process... we're pulling out... it's going to take a couple years.

The fact that you don't believe it is going to happen is not evidence that it isn't going to happen.

[MNBrewer]

117. If the Obama administration has a coherent plan for advancing the cause of civil equality

it seems to be well hidden. At least from the general pubic, not to mention the major GLBT civil rights groups. Who are the staffers in charge of developing or implementing the plan? Is there any public discussion? I haven't seen any. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but my guess is that it's largely been over cocktails inside the Beltway with an eye toward the last 6 months of the 2nd term.

Fierce urgency of sometime from the fierce advocate.

[Political Heretic]

67. Well half your information is wrong, and the other half has little to do with the working class:

- The trajectory on Iraq is correct. We're beginning the process of pulling out, but it's not on a TIMETABLE of your liking.

Our direction with respect to the global war on terrorism or whatever we're calling it these days is fundamentally flawed. While we're theoretically "drawing down" in Iraq (although Generals at the Pentagon held a press conference last week saying they're planning and prepared to be in Iraq for ten years) we are escalating in Afghanistan. Obama says we "took our eye off the ball in the war on terror" (back during the campaign) by invading Iraq. That's the wrond direction. We didn't take our "eye off the ball" - our complete approach to global terrorism is wrongheaded, counterproductive, destabilizing and dangerous and actively makes every American less secure each day. This is a place where I've always disagreed, so nothing new here. But that's direction. That isn't "speed."

- The trajectory on getting out of the Bush recession. The clusterfuck on wall street that was the results of massive de-regulation is about to changed so it doesn't happen again. Just last week Obama announced major new regulations (and returns to old regulations) to prevent what happened from happening again. Again.. right trajectory... wrong SPEED for you.

First of all, no new "major" regulations were announced. Minor changes were announced. Secondly, it is not the right trajectory at all. The administrations entire approach to both getting out of the financial crisis and making sure it doesn't happen against has been entirely wrong-headed. It is based on a trickle-down theory, that places businesses first in line to negotiate and set the terms and structure of both the bailout and the regulatory concessions. The philosophy behind the multi trillion dollar taxpayer handout to business was that nothing was fundamentally wrong with how we do business in this country - we just needed to "reinflate" the bubble and bring the halcyon days back again.

The problem is, the way we do business in this country is fundamentally the problem. A recovery plan could have and should have began from the bottom up, starting with Main Street and trickling up to Wall Street. We could have bought out the bad loans of mortgage holders - pay the loans, no bad debt. We could have reinstituted the stock transaction tax, which we have already had in this country in times past of a 0.25% fee on stock sales -- this helps provide incentive to limit speculation and would generate something over 100 billion in revenue a year, which could be used to help Wall Street pay for its own financial rescue over time.

Speculation and derivative trading are unacceptable practices that drive our economy into instability, and current proposed "regulation" does nothing at its core to stop speculative practices. We used to invest, now we speculate and that's part of why our economy has long term problems. Proposed regulations are fine (hence not about speed) but none of them address the fundamental ills that keep this country a place where 80% of the entire wealth of the nation is controlled by a top 5 or 10%.

We need a radical change in direction away from the plunder capitalism of the last thirty years and towards a responsible social democracy that puts the working class majorty first on its list of priorities.

That's direction, not speed.

- Federal benefits provided now for same-sex couples. Step in the right direction (small step, sure)... but again... right trajectory... wrong SPEED for you.

At that same time, the administration elects to file a motion to dismiss in California and cites DOMA in the affirmative as part of its defense. That's an inexcusable insult and humilation to every lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered person in America. That's not about not getting enough stuff done. That's about doing the absolute WRONG THING.

- Cleaning up of GM and Chrysler... with unions now owning majority or plurality of shares in both. It will be a long process to bring these companies back... but the trajectory is correct.

Actually, unions own far, far less than that. While initially there was great talk about worker owned companies as part of the answer - what materialized in point of fact was a far less than majority mostly symbolic holding in both GM and Chrysler. This on top of ball-busting concessions rammed down unions throat at the behest of business interests well beyond GM and Chrysler (who were watching with glee as the screws were put to UAW, and hoping that it would serve as a precident and model everywhere else) with the full backing of the administration. In the end, unions lost drastically and gained next to nothing substantive in the process.

That trajectory is not only wrong, its shameful.

- Restoring America's respect by the rest of the world. If you don't see that this is going in the right direction, then you're simply blind to reality.

What I see is a lot of fluffy speeches and a lot of adoring fans around the world. That will change with time, as the world gets used to soaring rhetoric but struggles to match that to policy. Respect around the world is an interesting relative thing. People on the streets in Egypt really don't have much to know about our president, other than that he says nice things. However, business interests all over the world, and the privileged elite who rule are of course thrilled to death with Obama as they are confident that he is "one of them."

Our "respect" is not being restored in the countries whose children we are continuing to shred into a million pieces.

- Muslim extermist recruitment is down. The muslim world is finding it much harder to gin up hatred for America right now without Bush as a poster boy. Sadly, "progressive purists" like yourself have no shortage of hatred for Obama's American vision.

If the argument is whether or not Bush stirred up more hatred around the world than Obama, there's no question that this is true. That has little or nothing to do with the direction of our foreign policy. What we have now is basically someone who is smarter, more sophisticated, more eloquent and more crafty at implementing an imperialistic and hegemonic foreign policy while everyone smiles at him and sings his praises.

The fact that people cheer while this is happening doesn't really make me feel any better.

[notesdev]

111. if you think the economic policy is the right direction

you obviously haven't the first clue how the economy works, and what the policy is.

The official policy is to cover up decades of fraud, theft, and abuse by the banking industry - the large players in particular, and to pursue that goal via a combination of legalized accounting fraud, giveaways in the trillions, insider trading, interest rate spread piracy, and economically bizarre attempts to make whole loans that should never have been extended in the first place, and were not, are not, and never will be viable.

Geithner should be under arrest, not running the Treasury. One might think that his chief of staff being Goldman Sachs' top lobbyist might be a big honkin' clue as to the level of corruption that is going on here. And why is Hank Paulson walking free? Why have his assets not been seized and no indictments filed? Why is the Federal Reserve still allowed to be completely unaccountable for its actions? And how can you people give Obama a pass on his preaching fiscal discipline out of one side of his mouth, after having proposed a budget with a deficit so massive that it exceeds the total borrowing of the entire country from independence to the present?

I voted in the hope for a change from the situation where kickbacks and bribery were the fundamental building blocks of policy and legislation. Clearly I was a deluded, naive fool to think that such change would come from Barack Obama.

[Sapphocrat]

315. "Federal benefits provided now for same-sex couples." Wrong.

Limited benefits provided for partners of federal employees.

Not "federal benefits provided for same-sex couples."

Big difference.

[tan guera]

86. Polls are showing that

people like Obama personally, but his policies? Not so much!

[JDPriestly]

95. What has been so outstanding about Obama's five months.

He has less than two years in which to insure that Democrats retain the majority in Congress in 2010. Time is slipping away. What has he really accomplished?

We are still in Iraq and a real exit date for ALL OF OUR TROOPS has not yet been set.

We are more enmeshed in Afghanistan than we were under Bush -- but still no Bin Laden (after 7 1/2 years).

The economy is still in the tank. Unemployment is rising. Banks are not lending in spite of the taxpayers' generosity. Interest rates on credit cared debt remain far too high. Interest rates on savings remain far too low. Wages are stagnant or decreasing. Prices are supposed to be declining, but wait until you see the gas prices in September. I hate to think what they will be if the rapid increases in recent weeks is any indication.

We don't have single payer or public option health care insurance legislation. And nothing good is in sight.

Those who authorized torture have not been brought to justice.

Warrantless wiretapping has not been prosecuted and may be continuing. We have no way of knowing.

The Obama administration hangs on to the states secrets defense in cases in order to protect itself and the Bush administration from embarrassment.

The list of things that have not been done and probably won't be done goes on forever.

Meanwhile, the Lillie Ledbetter legislation was passed and signed. Obama agreed to fund some of the healthcare needs of poor children although states are not actually doing it due to lack of state funding.

The stimulus was passed, but, as I mentioned above, so far, we don't feel very stimulated.

Rights for gays and lesbians -- token progress.

Broken promise upon broken promise. I hope that the Obama fanatics enjoy their hope because it may be all they get.

[lamp_shade]

101. You said it. Most of those who are "so disappointed" are full of shit because they've been dis-

appointed since the primaries and have devoted themselves to doing everything possible to prove we should have chosen their candidate. It's just a handful, but they're angry and VERY VOCAL.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Outstanding? How?

[HughMoran]

296. Stop pointing out the simple facts

The infants stomping their feet might start whining even louder.

[Political Heretic]

359. Note that no answer has been given when question on the "specifics" of these "amazing" five months.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLAprogressive]

12. blah blah blah

[armyowalgreens]

23. Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, Russ Feingold etc...

They would be better leaders for the American people than Obama.

But of course they just aren't as charismatic. And apparently that's all that matters.

[FLAprogressive]

32. they also don't have cute kids and aren't as photogenic.....

...do you really think that a Russ Feingold photothread would get as many recs?

[glitch]

172. Does he have a dog?

Anyway, I think he's cute.

[QC]

33. Clearly you have never seen Bernie Sanders in a bathing suit!

:sarcasm:

[babylonsister]

34. You are right. So we have a charismatic guy and we're trashing him?

How fucked up is that? We have a Democrat for a prez, and we continue trashing him instead of trying to improve him?

DU is whacked sometimes.

[armyowalgreens]

38. You call it trashing him. I call it necessary criticism

that a president hasn't seen in over a decade.

I'm not about to sit on my hands and gaze fondly into the eyes of our leader as he runs this country into the ground.

[FLAprogressive]

41. and yet there's a forum dedicated to just that

it's called General Discussion: Presidential....

All your photothreads and fawning praise in one place!

[babylonsister]

44. You mentioned Feingold and Sanders, neither person who cared to

run. No, don't sit on your hands, trash this president. What were you doing in 2000 when this country started to get raped by the rethugs? Were you just as vociferous?

I don't recall you being anywhere near here. I hope you were at anti-war/anti-Bush rallies.

But I bet you weren't. Now you find your voice? Work with this prez, not against him. I'm telling you, that's the better route.

[create.peace]

169. i think he was in junior high.... just sayin' nt

[stillrockin]

175. Why is speaking the truth so offensive to you ?

He is not living up to his promise of change. He turns a deaf ear to calls for single payer health insurance. He refuses to bring the Bush crime family to justice. He refuses to protect gay Americans. He refuses to stop renditions. He refuses to lift the veil of secrecy over the executive branch. What is there to support ? Why is this a better route ?

Placating people with minimal adjustments while protecting corporate and pharmaceutical interests is not something I can believe in.

Personal attacks on people exhibiting true patriotism are not helpful. And yes, I was in the streets in 2000 and at every other D.C. demonstration against Bush and the wars up until the Obama inauguration in 2009, which I also attended.

[SammyWinstonJack]

182. Excellent question!

:thumbsup:

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

all these things...

in 5 months,

He is not living up to his promise of change. He turns a deaf ear to calls for single payer health insurance. He refuses to bring the Bush crime family to justice. He refuses to protect gay Americans. He refuses to stop renditions. He refuses to lift the veil of secrecy over the executive branch.



:shudders:

for the next 5.

[armyowalgreens]

363. I was definitely in elementary school when Bush was elected...

So unfortunately I could not attend rallies. I didn't have a political voice until about 2004. Since then I've basically been nothing but vocal about the problems.

[George II]

308. Necessary criticism that a President hasn't seen in over a decade???

Did you sleep throught the bush administration?

[armyowalgreens]

321. How many republicans criticized Bush?

I'm talking about criticism from your own party.

Of course liberals complained during the Bush era. But of course we all expected that, and Bush didn't give a shit. If his own party had criticized him, he probably would have changed his ways.

[FLAprogressive]

39. Call me when he starts acting like a Democrat.

And if what he's doing right now IS acting like a Democrat....maybe it's time we reconsider supporting the Democratic party.

[Q3JR4]

97. ...

Q3JR4
Yep...

[Dawgs]

136. Kucinich and Feingold "better leaders"?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

They would be doing the exact same thing, but without the charisma and influence.

[FLAprogressive]

204. they most certainly wouldn't.

Would they be Wall Street Whores like this admin is? I don't think so.

[fascisthunter]

258. why would you think so?

[Vidar]

158. More importantly, Feingold, Sanders & Kucinich haven't sold out to

Wall Street. Of course they can't win.

[xiamiam]

25. relax..dont you think he could consult with kucinich to get the pulse of the people?

most of us want obama to knock it out of the park...succeed beyond our wildest dreams....there are concerns, however...legitimate...how do we reconcile that...our hearts are already crushed after the last 8 years...and now the middle class is reaching poverty level while wall street gets bigger bonuses...he's perfect for the job..but some things that are going down are difficult to swallow..

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLAprogressive]

16. great post

[PSPS]

122. Sadly, it failed to meed the DU requirement of Obama worship, hence it was deleted.

[Robb]

224. Right.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLAprogressive]

27. And now we're at the "Freeper" stage.....part of the denial.

anyone who criticizes him MUST be a Freeper.

[Lex]

31. and sadly that's the mentality of it

nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

29. He WAS better than McCain. Thats is W H Y we elected him.

>>>"But he's better than McCain!" his apologists will screech.>>>>>

We elected OBAMA. So where the heck is he?

[grahamhgreen]

91. LOL

[WCGreen]

13. Yea, this is why I had reservations about him long before 2008...

You just knew he was going to run for president after that speech at the convention. But when it came to a choice between HRC and Obama, I leaned toward
Obama simply because I remember how contentious it was when Bill was living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. I also remembered how he botched the Health Care debate back in 93 and I really didn't want to star in a Groundhog Day marathon.

I felt with Obama, we would get a fresh face with new people. Same Old Same Old.

Still, he is better than McCain.

[Skittles]

22. a ham sandwich would have been better than McCain

[Autumn]

26. An ameoba or even a shit sandwich

would have been better than McCain .

[armyowalgreens]

35. But he was such a cute old man...

Just like Grandpa. A real American.

:eyes:

[Autumn]

45. Cute in a ugly kind

of way. Wait never mind that's a warthogs ass that I was thinking of.

[FLAprogressive]

36. it's the typical screed "Well we could have had X"

Yes, we could have.....that doesn't make it any better.

[Skittles]

50. it is indeed a fucking tired argument

as if knowing we could have worse means we could not have better

[FLAprogressive]

52. it's just one of the many. Check your PMs in a few minutes.

[Skittles]

54. hilarious

sad that it is SOOOOOOO true :(

[Autumn]

14. PS I recommended it and

I tend to agree with most of your points.

[Smarmie Doofus]

21. I was hoping for more. Not expecting, necessarily. But *hoping*. nt

[Voltaire]

37. There is much true in what you say

And I will not dispute it at all. I would like to throw out a question to all. . .is it the political REALITY of America that makes me so impatient. I like Barack. I think he has great potential. I think our political system, and our economic system, and our nation are well and truly FUCKED, however, and that there is little that he can do to stanch the bleeding.

So are we mad at Barack or at the system that exsited long before he got here? I don't know the answer. I am inclined to give him more time, hell, given the circumstances I would be inclined to give anyone more time.

But I don't want health insurers and I don't want Wall Street types, and I don't want Republicans or Conservatives invited to the table to fix these problems. They broke us, they can go fuck themselves.

Maybe he knows more than we do. But I sure don't like the process so far. And I don't like this uneasy feeling of "ain't no change coming."

Hope I'm wrong. Don't think so though.

[FLAprogressive]

43. problem is he's part of the system

and there are people here who insist he is "up against" the system when in reality the opposite is occurring.

[Autumn]

53. Great post

I too like him, but I don't like the way he is playing with the assholes who got us where we are.

[Senator]

47. It's a growing legacy of failure to even attempt to effect change.

And that's exactly the kind of thing that comes back to haunt at re-election time.

Whatever the opinion of "Hillarycare" or DADT -- then, or now -- the effort itself transferred to support and loyalty for the Clinton admin.

The GOP may again field challengers that any Dem could walkover, but that's not something to be counted on.

--

[FlyingSquirrel]

63. Anyone who believed Obama's campaign promises should check..

themselves into a mental hospital, because the one true constant of the universe is that you can tell a politician is lying when their lips move. And that money has a death grip on power. And that power corrupts. Hello. No change will come until the people rise up and demand it, and that will not happen until we hit bottom. It will be messy and unpretty and violent. Our system of government has failed, and it didn't take long (in the grand scheme of things). Quit whining, sit back and wait for the inevitable. And be prepared.

[Greyhound]

69. I'm still not tired of typing "We told you so".

:rofl:
:kick: & R

[scheming daemons]

71. told us what?

Nominate Kucinich!?!?!



bwahahahaha.... we'd have gotten a lower vote percentage than Goldwater.


We'd have made the 1984 election look like a nailbiter.




"Told you so!" from a Kucinichian. That's fucking funny.

[Greyhound]

80. That we were being sold a bill of goods. That the corporate candidates would

fuck us (and you too). And that the only hope might be for some spare change from their parasite masters.

But just keep laughing, the clock is still ticking, America is becoming less relevant every day, and the moment our market is no longer essential the world will drop us like bad habit. No more free money and Obama and the Democratic Wing of the Corporate Party is going to own this fucking mess and the shitheels that got us into it will still walk away scotfree.

[Dawgs]

138. And, Kucinich would have been able to what exactly?

Pass single payer health care? End the wars immediately? What else?

Cause I think you'd be very disappointed to find out that Kucinich wouldn't be all that much different from Obama.

[Greyhound]

268. It was scheming daemons that has tried to turn this into a Kucinich thread,

a common tactic (perfected by the reich-wing bloviators) when your argument has no substance.

However since you've brought this up, a progressive President in the same circumstances would use his popularity to circumvent the political gamesmanship (a la Raygun) to get health care through, and as Commander and Chief requires no approval from anybody to withdraw from the ongoing mass-murder.

What I want to ask you, as current spokesperson for the Gobama squad, is why are you all so adamant in your support of the strategies and policies that have, and will continue, to fuck all of us so badly? Are you really enjoying the reaming we're taking so that the parasites will not have to suffer any of the consequences of their actions?

[Political Heretic]

74. I don't tire of hearing it.

I thought I was prepared for what this administration would and wouldn't do. I was totally unprepared for what has already transpired in such a short amount of time.

Told you so's are fine with me.

[Greyhound]

81. I'd much rather be writing about how glad I am to have been so wrong.

As Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid".

[defendandprotect]

75. This is way beyond DU -- and there are many of us here . . .

who hoped this wouldn't happen -- but in watching Dems over the years, it seemed

clear that it would.

That didn't stop us from trying to support Democratic Party again -- we did.

And this is heartbreaking because of where our nation is right now re fascism and

Global Warming. We don't have a heck of a lot of time!

I don't see things getting better -- I see the betrayals getting bigger.

I'm very concerned about Medicare and Social Security --

They used Clinton to knock out 60 years of Welfare Guarantees . . . something GOP

couldn't get done!

But -- I keep hoping for positive change!!!!!

[Celeborn Skywalker]

76. Not really.

Obama remains a very popular president.

[Political Heretic]

77. Which doesn't change anything.

And doesn't change the fact that discontent is growing.

I would be more glad if he was both right and popular, and I'd settle for right and unpopular. Wrong and popular is the worst combination out there. Wrong and unpopular at least has more chance for a change of direction.

[ima_sinnic]

106. bush was also "very popular" for quite a while there (nt)

[slay]

78. More and more I'm just like - what the fuck?

on EVERYTHING you said - gays being ignored, never-ending wars, torture, all of it. ALL OF IT. More and more it looks like this country is in DIRE DESPERATE need of a third party outside the monopoly the dems and repubs have created for themselves. they care only about money and corporations - we are NOTHING BUT CONSUMERS to them - make no mistake, we are not people, we are not citizens, we ARE consumers ONLY in their greedy beady little eyes. :puke:

[Political Heretic]

79. We don't need a thirdy party. Hear me out....

By that I mean, we don't need a third party to enter into this completely farcical banana republic of a political system, that has finally gotten to the point where it nearly exclusively first serves the privileged elite.

What we need.... frankly.... is a revolution. That doesn't have to mean violence, and I'm not advocating that. I'm just observing that what we need is the complete tear down and dismantling of this corporatocracy and replace it with something that views ordinary people as capable of making effective decisions for themselves, with a populist government reflecting the ideals of a socialist democracy.

I'm not talking about communism and I'm not talking about the end of enterprise or markets. We have completely swallowed this lie that our out of control plunder capitalism (or just "capitalism" as some would say) is the only way to have an economy. Well-regulated markets, with the strong oversight of a government very closely connected directly to its people is possible and something that we should work for.

My ideal society is not one where we go backwards in time, forsake technology, and all wear animal skins while laying strips of deer meat on abandoned highways. :) My ideal society is one in which labor is strong, companies are predominantly worker-owned, where we have a manufacturing base on our own soil, where government is barred from collusion with private business and elections are publicly financed. Where basic needs services are public, not private, and where market enterprise is regulated, with a focus on avoiding excessive income disparities.

That's not going to happen overnight. And of course that's more than this president was ever going to deliver. What's tragic is that this administration has been shockingly worse that I ever would have expected on a host of issues, not that he hasn't transformed America in the long term way I believe it must be transformed.

[truedelphi]

88. We need to have either a "People's Union" or a serious

Third Party.

Before the internet, neither of these would have been possible. But now they are both possible.

[slay]

206. You make a very good point

out government has indeed become a scam - corporate goons who exist only to ensure the wealth and safety of the rich. I would love to see a true people's revolution where we send a clear message to these corporate assholes telling them, look - you exist to serve us, not the other way around. We are PEOPLE, not consumers. I'm not sure continuing with capitalism is the way to go, but that's a discussion for another time. You are probably right that just a third party would not be enough to change anything - but if we were to have 4 or 5 parties, it might. The biggest hurdle to that problem are the 20-30% total fucking idiots that vote for the most extreme fringe republicans possible - and I understand the need to keep those people out of power at virtually any cost. I too am sorely dissapointed in most of the Obama admins decisions - which often directly mirror shitty ones by the Bush admin. Still - SOMETHING has to change - I think people realize that. I HOPE people realize that. :hi:

[liteworker101]

82. Hurts and is really discouraging, but lets think about it for a moment-

It is still "we the people" -

We are responsible to stand up, take it to the street. Sad we have to do so, Obama did say all we needed was to take the White House, the Congress and the Senate.......

What now Barack?

It is just a damned shame, how many more months do we have to give him because he took over such a mess?

We just need to be quiet and wait while he works it all out, right everyone? keep on keeping on................

[JCMach1]

83. So far Obama has made Bill Clinton look like a 'red'

I am very very unhappy...

[Jim Sagle]

85. Hell, he's made NIXON look like a red.

x(

[tan guera]

93. We don't need to take to the streets

We need to take to the Net and get moveon or some biggie to join us. The CMWs will have to listen to us if we have huge numbers and we're angry and not gonna take it anymore. :-)

[grahamhgreen]

90. Another PR con job president I guess... Dems will lose the midterms...

[SammyWinstonJack]

186. 'Another PR con job president..' I think that was obvious with 'candidate Obama'.

It was for me.

[bos1]

92. Internet forums are for extremists, malcontents, and kooks.

All the anti-Obama threads on DU prove it. And the so-called "conservative" sites filled with Randian glibertarians, neocons and bigots. The majority of America knows Obama is doing his best and they support him. That 2 out of 5 of the "greatest" thread on DU are the usual anti-Obama whining proves that DU is out of it.

[armyowalgreens]

98. Or it could be that

the majority of Americans simply have no clue what the hell they are supporting. They believe whatever the president says and gaze on in wonder.

Most Americans are politically inept. They don't know current events. They don't understand what's wrong. And they most definitely do not know how to fix it.

I don't base my support for a candidate on their popularity. If 49 percent of Americans can get the vote wrong, I have little faith that the other 51 percent actually know what the hell they are doing.

[HughMoran]

293. Americans are morons

Good thing we know what's right from wrong!

















:eyes:

[wuvuj]

99. Too much sucking up to power....

...

[eridani]

102. It's just so "extreme" to be bothered by the 18,000 that die each year--

--because they can't pay for health care. If "normal" people aren't bothered by that, they can go straight to hell.

[Political Heretic]

114. Yes, anything outside of the narrow parameters of political acceptability as defined by

the establishment is typically labeled "exterminate"

That would be laughable any place else other than this corporate media saturated United States.

You just don't get it. It's not about personal effort. Criticisms about Obama are about the office not the man, so I don't really give a damn if he "is doing his best." What I care about is what we, the people, need and ought to demand from our leaders.

And what we ought to demand is a new deal and run anyone ought not gutsy enough to stand with us and not with big business out on a rail.

If 2 out of 5 of the "greatest" threads are angry Americans fed up with a political system that fucks them into the ground, and its cheerleaders who tell us to shut up and take it, then maybe there is some hope left yet.

[bos1]

118. DU Obama-bashers are naive at best; I should know, I was naive once too.

Back in the day, I was excited when Bill Clinton was elected, relieved to see the Reagan/Bush era end, to have GHW Bush lose after one term, after living through the Iran-Contra and S&L scandals, the US waging illegal wars and supporting death squads in the Americas... generally, the incredible rise in militarism during that time.

When Clinton sent missiles into Iraq in his very first year in office, ostensibly over an assassination plot against GHW Bush that sounded as laughably bogus as it turned out to be, I pretty much threw in the towel on supporting Clinton. I felt that he was just another pro-military puppet.

Later, I came to understand that I had been naive. I learned more about what is possible in politics, and came to appreciate what the very imperfect Clinton achieved, such as an economic miracle in balancing the budget and reversing the first Bush deficits, some reductions in military spending, a general PR victory against the right wing lunacy that has so much power in the US. I saw that my "everything or nothing" view had been impulsive and immature. The installation into the White House by judicial fiat of GW Bush, and his vivid example of true warmongering and maliciousness, helped cement this view.

Nowadays, I appreciate the radical voices that want change right away, that want justice immediately, that can't stand compromise in the face of the evils concocted by US military corporate control of the system, by throwing soft drug users into prisons, by the appalling lack of national healthcare, by an administration that legitimized torture and waged a war that was one big war crime going unpunished -- another long list I don't need to go into.

But I also understand that Obama has already done incredibly good things after only a couple months in office. I understand he is up against a right wing PR onslaught that is more extreme than anything seen in four decades, at least. I really see him as very promising so far (stopping Gitmo trials, opening relations with Cuba, taking strong stands against torture, reversing the US image abroad in one fell swoop -- that list is long, too), and is in some ways a positive force just by being in office at this time, I will support him even through the decisions I don't appreciate, for the time being. At this point he's batting about 700, I'd say, which is great.

Don't be so quick to reject Obama if he fails our idealistic expectations on one or two issues or instances. Appreciate what we have, while fighting for what's right. That's all.

[Political Heretic]

123. You're using Clinton as an example of how you were naive?

Bill Clinton, the self described "pro-business pragmatist" did more than his share to help privileged interests stagnate (in the case of the middle class) or drive down wages (in the case of the working class) and exponentially increase the income disparity gap in this country throughout the 90s.*

(See: http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/tabfig.html tables from Chapters 4, 5 and 6 which cover the 90s as well as today)

He championed NAFTA, brought us telecom deregulation, let unions continue to rot on the vine and handed the financial sector practically everything their lobby asked for.

You're first impression of that President was the less naive one.

Once again, it is not about SPEED it is about direction. The administration isn't doing the right things too slowly. It's doing the completely wrong things in areas that should be deal breakers for anyone who considers social and economic justice for working Americas to take precidence over all else.

No one is talking about everything or nothing. But the things that are being trampled are fundamental things that must not be casually ignored.

[bos1]

332. thanks, your reply was very thoughtful and informative. n/t

[stevietheman]

247. I agree to a large extent. Americans aren't a very patient people, left or right. n/t

n/t

[fascisthunter]

259. you being one of them

[Greyhound]

329. You guys are so funny, "The majority of America" doesn't have clue what is going

on inside or out of the country. They don't know who their own representatives are and couldn't find Washington DC on a labeled map. They do what they're told, vote for whom they're told to, and agree with the loudest voice they hear on the TeeVee.

"The majority of America" has never heard of DU or the site that shall not be named or Daily Kos or even The Daily Show. In short, they don't know shit about shit and couldn't care less as long as the cable works and they can buy enough beer or wine to anesthetize themselves against the realities of their daily lives.

[cali]

103. you really shouldn't speak for others. sorry, but that's just a lame thing to do.

[Political Heretic]

110. Why? You do it all the time.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Political Heretic]

115. How about all the times you respond to me speaking for what "Democrats" think

:shrug:

Let me help you out and revise my subject line for you:

I'm getting the impression over recent weeks, that the number of we who are discontented and not afraid to say so is growing. I base this on what I read, the number of "I voted for and fully supported Obama and what in Gods named happened?" articles and editorials I read and persons on the street I chat with (as I did on Saturday at the World Refugee Event in our town).

Obviously, its just an impression - but I think its the correct one. And if it isn't, then it just means we've got that much more work to do in order to get people to wake up.

Now I could have said all that.... but some of us have shit to do.

You're response to me, was little more than some petty remark, because there's really nothing more to say. We have a right to be upset, and the fact that you aren't is what's truly "pathetic" - I believe is the word you used.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slay]

210. I have the person you are replying to on

ignore - she is always promoting corporate Dems over progressive ones. (She's the only person in my ignore list) Then again she's super rich, doesn't work, and loves her money WAY more than moving the world in a possitive, right direction. I'm not even clear why she's allowed to continue posting here - she must donate heavily to the website or something. I wouldn't even bother wasting my time argueing with her. Just my opinion.

[Liberal_in_LA]

157. ouch!

[FLAprogressive]

194. win.

[Jeep789]

104. Not all of us expected perfection

And more than a few of us realize how difficult his job is. Do you really think that he could change the world in 6 months? I wasn't the least bit fooled by Obama and he wasn't my first choice (Kucinich was) but I am more than happy that he won and that McCain hasn't finished us off altogether.

[Political Heretic]

109. It's not about speed, its about direction. And this is failing to be average, let alone perfect.

[Lena inRI]

107. Hearing you loud and clear, Political Heretic. . .

. . .PARTICULARLY if Obama W E A S E L S out of single-payer health care option by blaming it on Congress or anybody but himself and his team.

I expect the 72% will of the people to follow the Iranian people's example.

Enough talk.

I'm ready.

Meantime, Obama charisma is dead to me. Permanently.

He has become an impediment. . .an enabler.

See ya in the streets.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[boomerbust]

108. Hilary012

[NNN0LHI]

113. Nearly 600,000 rocket scientists voted for Nader last November

I think every one of them posts here.

Don

[HughMoran]

301. lol

You know they do. :)

[TheCowsCameHome]

124. I demand we redo the November election.

I want to give a second look to McCain and Palin.







Just so I can vote for Obama again.

[kjackson227]

126. Oh please, you know d*mned well that Obama can't pass legislation...

by himself. Congress is the one you should be upset with, and not the President. In addition, we have three more years to go. Give the man a break for Chr*st's sake. GEEZ, you people get on my mf nerves.

[Autumn]

129. Of course he can't but he can

lean on Congress and I really don't think I have seen him do that.

[George II]

131. SPECIFICS SPECIFICS SPECIFICS!!!!!

That post is laced with vague concepts and virtually ZERO specifics.

My guess from the attitude expressed in this post is that you would be dicontented {sic} no matter who was in charge.

[Political Heretic]

152. What specifics do you want?

I wasn't aware that anyone was seriously disputing that the handling of the financial crisis, and health care reform - the two major policy focuses of these five months - have adopted a business first approach for formulating policy. Timothy Giethner said almost exactly that on Meet the Press last month when it came to the financial crisis.

I wasn't aware that anyone was disputing that the administration has elected to "look forward, not backward" and not pushed for investigations into the criminal conspiracy that is now well documented and and well reported in even mainstream media those insuring that capital criminal traitors will never be accountable for what they have done.

I wasn't aware that there was any dispute that the administration has defended the institutions of torture in court, defending the right to have secret off-short detention camps where international law and treaty or our own constitutional principles don't apply. That's just a matter of record.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute that congressional democrats (remember in my post I criticized both congressional democrats and the administration as a whole) support for serious, robust, comprehensive health care reform that puts working Americans first is "underwhelming" to put if very mildly, or any serious dispute about the administrations own softening language, or its promises (as rearticulated again just last week by Press Secretary Gibbs) to "work with" obstructionist Republicans in compromise.

The one place I'll grant you, I would need to elaborate on my statement was when I said that the administration had "thrown gays under the bus." That isn't directed at Obama the person, but at the Department of Justice who chose - they did not have to - file a motion to dismiss and affirmative reference DOMA in doing so. That is an unforgivable slap in the face and a disgusting insult to millions of Americans.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute about the fact that no proposed reforms of wall street include any limiting of market speculation or derivative trading, nor independent oversight apart from the deeply entrenched FDIC.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute of the fact that we are spending another 80 billion dollars on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or that we are adding, not reducing troops in Afghanistan (hence the escalation part), or that the timeline for withdraw in Iraq does not constitute a total withdraw of every American troop, and also has been pushed back from its original schedule (hence the extended part)

And I certainly wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute of the fact that after claiming that it was a policy priority of the administration, EFCA was left to die on the vine without any public effort to fight for anything - even a compromise.

These things were all pretty widely reported in....well... every media outlet out there. I think the debate is over whether these things were avoidable, whether or not we should be angry at the administration or congressional democrats, whether they're doing everything they can, etc.

I don't think the debate is really about disputing the facts of what has happened so far.

[donco6]

252. crickets

good post.

[gtar100]

134. Kick! - As said before by others...it's the direction, not the speed. I agree with that.

Well said.

[peacetalksforall]

137. The key to a non-hypocritical country is to remove the hypocrisy.

We had our own conclusions, hope, and expectations about stopping the madness of the fist nine years of this century which was an escalation of the last fifty years of the past century.

The key word is stopping. The reality is -

The game plan to reinstate the crooks/dons in charge of wall street and federal theft...
The game plan to reinstate (from the Clinton years) the DLC...
The game plan to only end torture at Guantanamo...
The game plan that provides every indication that we will continue with military protection of corporate pipelines in Irag...
The game plan to spread the corporate-military rule to Afghanistan...
The game plan that seems to be not really making a strike against poverty and the things that make people poor...

is not just about Obama, it's about our Legislative branch seated representatives - the legislative brance can't get any worse with some exceptions.

Barons are taking over the world at the expense of our living and dead children and our way of living and our hopes for our children and it is a take over of all our parents and grandparetns who struggled and suffered for us.

Yes, all are Republican lite.

(And for the record, I wanted Al Gore and I built up steam for Obama, I never wanted Hillary Clinton. I thrilled at what I perhaps mistakenly thought Obama would be all about - a President who would do everything for the little people. The game plan seems to say the opposite. For the record, I resent having to set the record straight so that I am not dismissed in an ugly way with a lot of assumptions.)

Whether or not the game plan is temporary, the damage done can't be reversed by 2010 or 2012.

The people are waking up pretty fast. The people are not going to take it anymore.

The BURDEN IS ON both the WH and the Legislative representatives. THE WRETCHED POVERTY - THE STINKING DESCENT - THE INSURANCE ROBBERIES - THE RESERVE ROBBERIES - THE MILITARY AND CORPORATE ROBBERIES - THE FLICKERING HOPE BECAUSE THE ONLY GAME PLAN THAT HAS BEEN PLACED IN FRONT OF US so far is listed above.

As long as the DLC is in charge of the Obama administration and DINOS do not support him when he does try to do something, those little people who were so resolved to vote for him and didn't know what they were getting with the DINOS, don't stand a chance. We don't stand a chance except one. Our only hope is that the serf level that we are descending to BY DESIGN AND PLAN of the baron consortium has a limit - corporations want to survive to feed off of us and get those nice bonuses and to make sure there are some of us left to work for them at serf level existence and can purchase some of their products and MOST ESPECIALLY - fight and die for the corporations on foreign soil for the purpose of owning all the earth resources, including the humans.

He's either a part of it or he is not. What is facing us is that the plan for us over and above his has existed for 50 to 90 years. But light has been shed on it. We may be in for a decades long, miserable rule such as the USSR and PR of China and other dominations of wealthy<>serf throughout the centuries.

Should we tear down and tear out words Of, By and For the People because we are destined to live by Of, By, For the Barons - who own our military, their planning think tanks and foundations, their lobbyists, their bankers, their ideas for our reserve, their foreign accounts and corporate registrations legislation, existing legislation that exempts the from accountability, their politicians. We have been living their plan - it's kinda hard to stop.

But people ARE waking up. Sometimes their thefts of the earth are just too glaring to ignore.

I am all about right - doint the RIGHT thing for the little people and their children. Only then will the world be straight with the universe.

[Dawgs]

140. Really? Do you have any actual facts to back that up?

Or is it just your opinion; like always?

[Political Heretic]

148. What do you want?

I wasn't aware that anyone was seriously disputing that the handling of the financial crisis, and health care reform - the two major policy focuses of these five months - have adopted a business first approach for formulating policy. Timothy Giethner said almost exactly that on Meet the Press last month when it came to the financial crisis.

I wasn't aware that anyone was disputing that the administration has elected to "look forward, not backward" and not pushed for investigations into the criminal conspiracy that is now well documented and and well reported in even mainstream media those insuring that capital criminal traitors will never be accountable for what they have done.

I wasn't aware that there was any dispute that the administration has defended the institutions of torture in court, defending the right to have secret off-short detention camps where international law and treaty or our own constitutional principles don't apply. That's just a matter of record.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute that congressional democrats (remember in my post I criticized both congressional democrats and the administration as a whole) support for serious, robust, comprehensive health care reform that puts working Americans first is "underwhelming" to put if very mildly, or any serious dispute about the administrations own softening language, or its promises (as rearticulated again just last week by Press Secretary Gibbs) to "work with" obstructionist Republicans in compromise.

The one place I'll grant you, I would need to elaborate on my statement was when I said that the administration had "thrown gays under the bus." That isn't directed at Obama the person, but at the Department of Justice who chose - they did not have to - file a motion to dismiss and affirmative reference DOMA in doing so. That is an unforgivable slap in the face and a disgusting insult to millions of Americans.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute about the fact that no proposed reforms of wall street include any limiting of market speculation or derivative trading, nor independent oversight apart from the deeply entrenched FDIC.

I wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute of the fact that we are spending another 80 billion dollars on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, or that we are adding, not reducing troops in Afghanistan (hence the escalation part), or that the timeline for withdraw in Iraq does not constitute a total withdraw of every American troop, and also has been pushed back from its original schedule (hence the extended part)

And I certainly wasn't aware that there was any serious dispute of the fact that after claiming that it was a policy priority of the administration, EFCA was left to die on the vine without any public effort to fight for anything - even a compromise.

These things were all pretty widely reported in....well... every media outlet out there. I think the debate is over whether these things were avoidable, whether or not we should be angry at the administration or congressional democrats, whether they're doing everything they can, etc.

I don't think the debate is really about disputing the facts of what has happened so far.

But of course, you know this.

[Dawgs]

164. You said the number of discontented is growing.

I'm saying that your "facts" don't prove that people are becoming more discontent.

I admit that the Obama administration has not been perfect. They have failed on gay rights, republican compromises, and the Afganistan "war". In my opinion, they have been successful on the economy, criminal investigations, and Iraq.

But, many of us still believe that he will eventually do the right thing regarding many of these issues. We may be wrong, or you may be wrong. We don't know.

Just because you're unhappy, does not mean that others feel the same way. You certainly haven't provided any proof.

[Political Heretic]

171. Ah I see.

Yes, that was certainly my opinion. I have only anecdotal evidence, but it feels that way to me.

[Bluenorthwest]

151. The OP is working on 100 rec's

And the comments are mostly in agreement. So the OP's opinion is backed up by being an opinion shared by what looks to be the majority.
So in a situation where most of us agree with the OP, and you are not able to act out your frustrations with violence, are you simply unable to counter these opinions with facts of your own? Or are you just spewing your opinion, like always? Or actually, just attempting to tarnish the majority opinion as being 'just an opinion' while you opinion is of course above reproach, in spite of not being communicated, in spite of your own lack of facts, figures or even your own clear opinion. You snark at the OP, and call that 'thinking', you try to sell that as debate, but it is not. It is just you throwing crap you think might stick. Rhetoric. Lacking in a single position, lacking in a single statement of fact.
About as free of facts as the average testimony by a cop in America I'd say. Devoid of fact, filled with finger pointing and of course, no actual evidence to back up a thing.
This is a political opinion board. Yet you read an opinion and clutch your pearls and act as if such things are unheard of. Grab your smelling salts, loosen your braces and try again.

[Dawgs]

167. Posts like his/hers always get 100 or so recs. That's proof to me that the # is NOT growing.

"Yet you read an opinion and clutch your pearls and act as if such things are unheard of."
I'm not saying it's unheard of; just that if you can say something as fact, you better prove it. And they didn't.

[Political Heretic]

174. Well to be fair its probably not proof of anything really.

[on point]

144. en masse migration to greens as protest signal!!

Would it be a powerful signal to the dems if we en masse registered for the green party, say on the first tuesday of this upcoming november? Let them know we are unhappy with their performance as a center right party when we want them as left?

SHould we launch such a move? Could be a significant signal to them.

I want them to stop caving to the delusional economic theories and 'factual nonsense' of the far right republicans who live in another universe

I want the dems to get a spine

I want prosecution of the crimes against humanity and war crimes of the Bush admin

I want a roll-back on the invasion of our civil rights, like wiretapping

I want REAL universal health care (try France and Germany for examples, not Britain and Canada)

I want equal rights for the gay community, which means they get to marry

[tan guera]

286. Either a mass defection to the Greens

or to the Indies, who already have a huge number. We need to be united if we want change.

[yodermon]

146. You have a good argument for primary challenge right there

assuming he continues on this arc, of course

[midnight]

147. I like our new president. He has a beautiful family. He is

capable of giving us the change we voted for. For many of us the last eight years have been a tale of-not yet. It is hard to accept that our country's constitution is being withheld from us. For those who share in the tired of waiting syndrom, you most likely are the one's watching your children or your neighbor's children become unemployed, shipped off to war, or you might be watching elderly community members go without food so they can secure medicine. Either way, it is just confounding, to you to have so much wealth from the working class being used to further disparities that clearly are not justified. Remember, you are not alone. Far from it.

[Ikonoklast]

150. And anyone that wasn't your candidate will disappoint you.

We got the message.

I stand with and support President Obama. He has done exactly as he said he would do.

Some of us actually listened to the words he said as he campaigned.

Others live off projection and wishful thinking.

I am not one of them.

[Political Heretic]

155. He actually was my candidate.

:shrug:

I'm sorry you can't see a disconnect between the words of candidate Obama and the joint behavior of the Obama administration and this congress. Clearly, a lot of us can.

I live off a commitment to social and economic justice for the working class. The rest is just details.

[Ikonoklast]

162. Then you must realize the time frames involved.

And that the actual first hurdle is the mid-terms.

Little steps.

But blaming the actions of Congress on Obama is disingenuous. You are conflating the two.

[Political Heretic]

170. It's not about speed, its about direction.

[QC]

188. But driving straight at the Grand Canyon at 30 mph is so much better

than doing the same at 60 mph!

It takes twice as long to crash into the abyss and be killed that way!

[Vidar]

156. Excellent summary. Highly recommended.

[chill_wind]

180. "Criticisms about Obama are about the office not the man."

Something the more emotional blanket supporters totally refuse to comprehend. What's NOT to like about Obama the man, the charismatic cool dude persona?

Honest confrontation on issues OTOH have gotten much, much more difficult, if not useless with the more defensive responders who simply don't want to see them/him scrutinized. The issues and the discussions aren't going to go away.

[Political Heretic]

195. Obama the MAN drips cool from every pore :)

But this, as you indicated, is about the OFFICE. :)

[Mithreal]

181. He's too timid and go along to get along with Repubs.

The Democratic Party stands in the way of President Obama though and we all know it.

[Echo In Light]

189. "America has one political party with two right-wings." Gore Vidal

[TBF]

223. Rec this particular post, and thanks to PH for not being afraid to speak up. K&R. n/t

[zeemike]

190. "We have met the enemy and he is us"

We want Obama to stand up to the powerful but we are not willing to do the same.
We are afraid ...could we loose our jobs and benefits if we piss them off...would we go to jail if we protest too much...but we want him to be our saviour.

[Political Heretic]

197. This point is not lost on me.

Thanks for making it.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snappyturtle]

193. As I look at the list in the OP, I see lots that would make repubs very happy.....

which would make a repub poster FOR the President, not against.imho

[Echo In Light]

196. "Electable" candidates aren't installed to challenge what corporate America wants

That's simply not why they're installed to begin with. These actors are, after all, installed by corporate America for very specific reasons, depending upon the times, and according to which perceptions need be sold to the public mind.

And time frame for "change" doesn't amount to dick. Three or four yrs from now there won't be any real, ground shaking, unprecedented 'changes' re how America basically is, what it is, what it represents, who it favors, whom it systematically fucks over, etc

[Political Heretic]

198. Actually, an even older trick in the DU book is to subsitute an actual point with name calling

When you don't have anything substantive to say, call the person a republican.

I think that's an unwritten rule somewhere.


I would argue that a more dangerous practice is to attempt to quell dissent and keep everyone in "line" by threatening them - that if they raise too many issues or demand too much they'll be accused of being the "enemy."

I don't think we're falling for that tired old shit anymore.

[rainlillie]

202. I think you're right.

,

[change_notfinetuning]

199. I voted for hope and change. I have been debating whether to accept

fine tuning. But Stay the Course? Business As Usual? How fucking stupid do they think I am?

I've long thought that the only difference between the parties was Supreme Court appointees. Sotomayor seems to me to be a good choice, so Obama is clearly better than McCain. (Everybody happy? No poison darts?)

But would some non-atheists out there please pray that, at the very least, he got the Sotomayor pick right?

I live in Chicago. They say that Chicago is the city that works. Maybe it would, if we had a few more Democrats underground. Now, we are all getting a crash course on just how Chicago works. Unfortunately, they're now doing it to the whole country. Mrs. O'leeary's cow would be proud.

[rainlillie]

200. I'm damn tired of adults whining like little babies!

Has everyone forgotten the mess he was handed? I too would like to see things move along a little faster, but he can't snap his fingers and fix everything. People need to chill, and stop acting like impatient children. OMG! He hasn't even been in office a year.

[change_notfinetuning]

203. With all due respect - You need a nap so your body can catch up to your brain.

Apologies in advance, but that belief is really tiring. Once a decision is made, WRONGLY, all the time in the world won't make it right.

[stillrockin]

230. well said

[rainlillie]

235. Your whining is even MORE tiring!

,

[mike_c]

215. agreed-- this is not my country any longer....

I no longer have any political representation, except possibly in the judicial branch, and even that is weak. I'm a LIBERAL, dammit. Not just in word, but in my support for liberal policies. There's virtually none of that in Congress, and none at all in the White House, at least not as I understand liberalism.

It's not enough to simply not be McCain. It's not enough to govern at the liberal end of the conservative spectrum, what others might define as "centrism." I'm a LIBERAL, and I have virtually no political representation in this country any longer.

I'm not alone, either.

[rainlillie]

237. Obama NEVER pretended to be a liberal.

..

[change_notfinetuning]

246. Sorry, but in 2004, Obama ran as a liberal. A true LIBERAL! Single payer and

the whole nine yards. To you, like Sean Insanity, liberal may be a dirty word; not to me. I was thrilled to be able to vote FOR a Senatorial candidate, and not for the lesser of two evils. And I felt that I did that in 2004 when I voted for Barack Obama. I don't know where you live and vote, but you may have missed this.

I knew it would be hard for a real liberal to get elected president, so I thought the 2008 presidential campaign was an attempt to tone things down. I didn't realize, at the time, that he was selling us liberals down the river. If you didn't live in Illinois during the 2004 Senatorial race, I can understand your confusion with my expectations, as well as the fact that some Dems on DU had none.

Once again, Charlie Democrat ran up to kick the football, and once again, the holder was Lucy. Nevertheless, I still have hope for Obama. I am certain that his heart is in the right place. I truly believe that he wants the right outcome. The question is how do we separate him from the ultimate no right/no wrong politicians like Assholerod, and from the amoral University of Chicago advisors, who are his brain trust, if not his Cabinet.

I don't know why right and wrong is such a difficult concept for the geniuses at the University of Chicago. But, if they were around in 1860, I bet they'd have advised Lincoln to adopt a Cap & Trade on slavery. That says it all.

[rainlillie]

250. Sorry, but you have not a clue as to whom you're talking to..

I am a liberal and I always knew Obama wasn't a liberal.

[change_notfinetuning]

251. Uh-huh

Then you didn't hear what he said in the Senate race. That, or you think Bill Clinton is a liberal. Yeah, that's it.

[rainlillie]

257. No, both the Clinton's are moderates.

Kucinich was the only liberal in the race. Maybe that's why I'm not whining about what he hasn't done thus far, I knew what I was getting before I voted for him.

[Sapphocrat]

316. "Kucinich was the only liberal in the race."

Richardson is a liberal. Gravel is even further to the left than Dennis.

[rainlillie]

320. Whatever! Obama was never a liberal and never pretended to be....

Some people act as if Obama is a King or dictator. He needs the Senate and the Congress in order to get things done. So you need to call out the cowardly Democrats , who are too spineless to step up.

[Sapphocrat]

324. You needn't tell me that.

I have been saying since 2007 that Obama was not, and is not, a liberal, and that a lot of people projecting their expectations onto Obama's "blank screen" were going to be very disappointed indeed. This was not, and is not, a very popular position to take, but I have never wavered from this position -- no matter how many Very Bad Names I have been called. And I have been called many Very Bad Names.

I have always called out the cowardly Democrats, which you would know if you had ever read anything I have written in the past eight and a half years.

Nevertheless, I do not accept the now-stale "Obama can't do anything! It's all up to Congress!" song* designed to provide Obama cover for refusing to use the bully pulpit to move Congress in the right direction. Even George W. Bush did that. He did not always succeed (thank goodness), but he suffered no timidity about using his pulpit -- even in the midst of the annual State of the Union address, as when he urged (no, demanded) passage of the Federal Marriage Amendment. (Perhaps you do not know of the Federal Marriage Amendment. Perhaps you should Google the Federal Marriage Amendment. And perhaps you should thank your lucky stars Mr. Bush was unsuccessful, and that there were enough Democrats and even -- gasp! -- enough semi-sentient Republicans to stop this hateful legislation in its tracks. For now.)

P.S. The United States Senate (with 100 members, two for each state) is part of Congress. The other part (535 members, apportioned by districts based on population) is the United States House of Representatives. And so, you see, it is not "the Senate and the Congress"; it is "the Senate and the House" which comprise Congress. If you have any other questions about the structure of our government, please do not hesitate to ask.

* A-5 on my bingo card.

[rainlillie]

336. Every historian has said that no other president has ever been handed a

mess bigger than the one Obama has been handed. So , people need to be a little more patient. At least give him a year. People who are out there bitching are going to help get republicans elected. Keep it up, if you think they're going to do a better job? Instead of going after the president write your senator or your congressman and ask them to step up. Better yet, take the time and share your brilliant ideas with the White House. Since so many here, know how to fix the mess we're in. I know how the government works, as do we all. The President needs the support of the elected Democrats to get things done. That seems to be the problem, they're more worried about being reelected than doing what's right for the American people. I always tell my friends as soon as the Democrats grow a pair, I'll become a Democrat. They always cave and wimp out.

[Sapphocrat]

349. And not bitching gets us... wait for it...

...more of the same.

I, however, am not happy with the status quo.

And, as I just told someone else with the audacity to assume that those of us who "bitch" are merely do-nothing keyboard warriors, you haven't the first clue about my activism in the real world. Go find my posts from last night, and learn something.

Thus, I will appreciate your ceasing to assume that I do not (at the very least) write my congresswomen, nor share my "brilliant ideas with the White House."

Now, as for the rest of your message:

He's got a lot on his plate... Be patient... He's only been in office five months... I'm not working hard enough for my rights... I don't know how government works... I'd be happier with a Republican... Obama is powerless, it's all up to Congress... All you need now if to chide me for my poutrage and tell me to stop whining about the pony I didn't get.

[Political Heretic]

277. That doesn't magically make everything OK.

[peace frog]

216. We need another category:

"Concerned and watchful, but not yet discontent"

[blindpig]

219. K&R

Well said. Utterly nonpartisan, very true. The stale arguments used against you diminish in effectiveness daily as latest betrayal of the people's interest is revealed.

[Zynx]

228. The fundamental disconnect is between those who care about notions

and "ideals" and those who care about the practicalities of policy. The most notable example of this is the situation with Iraq where your criticism does not square with the practical difficulties of pulling out of an ongoing war.

As far as selling out to corporations, there is some truth to that, but not nearly what you suggest. For example, ask the GM and Chrysler bondholders how happy they are with the administration. Ask the banks how happy they are with the regulations that have been pushed on them. Look at the grief the administration has received over its proposal to tax overseas corporate profits. The record here is not perfect, but it is far from poor.

[change_notfinetuning]

248. Do you know how long it took Nixon to get all troops out of Vietnam? Or, are

you just clueless about everything?

Incidentally, those Godless communists in Vietnam, who were then our enemy, are now one of our finest trading partners. I'm not saying that will happen with Iraq. Religious nutjobs have a way of screwing everything up, even here. But, not extricating ourselves from Iraq NOW is indefensible.

If anything is impractical, it's bailing out Wall Street casinos, which contribute nothing to our economy except a bunch of overpaid assholes with overgrown, imagined entitlements.

[Zynx]

249. We are presently in the process of withdrawing from Iraq.

Besides, the Iraq and Vietnam wars are qualitatively different. We actually fought a government in the case of Vietnam as well as an insurgency. In the case of Iraq we are not fighting any government.

Also, it took Nixon a very long time to get our troops out of Vietnam.

That's far longer than Obama has suggested for Iraq. Thank you for making my argument for me.

[democracy1st]

229. K & R

[Name removed]

232. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rainlillie]

233. Well, you have two choices leave the party or try to work to change things..

This whining is beyond annoying. I'm a Independent and this is exactly why I'm not a Democrat. Newsflash: Obama is trying to do his job, and he can't do it with people on his back all the time. He has the GOP to deal with and now a bunch of cry babies here on the DU. Give him a year at least. It seems you guys bought into the hype, that he's the Messiah.

[CakeGrrl]

236. Yeah, and his term's almost up. What a damned failure he's been.

:eyes:

[omega minimo]

238. It was clear during the campaign that the two final candidates would not threaten corporate rule

People may have thought they were hearing something else but they voted for this.

Unfortunately.

[ooglymoogly]

239. It is nice to see many on DU and the country at large are

Waking up to this flim flam nightmare.

[ooglymoogly]

240. self delete wrong place

[Dinger]

241. Boy Have I Been Rec'ing And Not Kicking A Lot Of Threads Lately

Too afraid to say what more and more here are saying. I'm (just about) ready to blow . . .

[ooglymoogly]

245. KR great post.

[jpak]

253. TEEEAA PAARRTY!!!111

:D

[maryf]

254. K&Rnt

[Kermitt Gribble]

255. The only problem I have with your post

is calling elected officials "leaders" - unless you were referencing the party leaders. The job of elected officials is to represent us, not lead us. Other than that, your post is 100% spot on.:applause:

[Political Heretic]

278. Sometimes we want them to do a little of both.

Sometimes electing the right people is about electing people with the courage to lead a conservative plurality away from things like racism, or homophobia, or classism which might be popular but our fundamentally unjust and unacceptable.

Sometimes its about standing up and representing the voice of ordinary working Americans who are the majority of the country rather than a tiny faction of privileged elite.

[earth mom]

261. I'm sick to death of DUers around here telling me that the shit that's going on doesn't smell.

There are two parties in this country-the center right party and the bat shit crazy insane party.

Bill Maher nailed it here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x327906

[TBF]

262. thanks for that link -

great stuff. :hi:

[ChiciB1]

271. LOVED Bill Maher's Comments... And He's SPOT ON!!! n/t

[ChiciB1]

266. Disappointment, YES & I Will Say Again What I Decided A Couple Of Weeks

ago... I Vote For This Man... But This Man Isn't Who I Voted For -- The CHANGE I See Is In HIM!

Not only is it the POTUS, it's the Democrats who are SUPPOSED to be representing us!! I live in Florida, not exactly a state that will listen to Democrats all that much, but even here when I write or contact either Senators OR my Representative... I get NO ANSWER, NO REPLY... I am IGNORED!

Now, I'm REALLY FED UP!!! All I can say or figure out is that it MUST come down to MONEY!! I don't have much to give, as well as MOST middle class or those less fortunate do, but I was under the impression that this country was a DEMOCRACY... Seems NOT SO MUCH ANYMORE!!!

[waiting for hope]

269. Thank you PH -

After 8 years of suffering the intolerable, you would have thought it was to be a time of rejoicing. Bill Maher has it right, If not Now, When? Especially since his poll numbers have been so high and he could, if he wished, help push some of this stuff through. But it doesn't seem like it's going to happen, and the people he has surrounded himself with and those that are leading on some of these issues have their own agenda, it's back to business as usual. K&R!

[JNelson6563]

273. Obama is just like Bush!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8477137

[Political Heretic]

279. Your schtick is getting less believable each day:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5897103&mesg_id=5898124

[JNelson6563]

333. I'm not enough of an internet warrior to have a schtick.

You on the other hand apparently have the time and resources to be a veritable commander of the barbituate left. Go get 'em tiger! :toast:

Julie

[Lost-in-FL]

274. Count me in.

The "it could be worse" crowd at 1, 2, 3....

[sarcasmo]

275. #174, back to the TOP.

[HughMoran]

297. You recommended this filth?

Off to ignore with you.

[sarcasmo]

339. Guess I can't speak my mind with out getting ignored, love this site.

[mvd]

283. I think he will get his public health care option through

I know - I also strongly, strongly want single payer, but would it get 50 votes? I doubt that.

I think whether a health care plan with a solid public option gets passed and signed or not is a test as to if my more optimistic side is true.

[Political Heretic]

285. The key word is "solid"

There's so much opposition and cowardice going on in Washington, if something "solid" emerges it will be a major victory.

[mvd]

287. On this issue, we really could use Obama's leadership

How do you think he has done so far? I'm not sure push has come to shove enough to know, but we'll likely know soon.

[elocs]

289. There is nothing more normal or routine than a "discontented Democrat".

In fact, it is pretty much a requirement. I am not sure if Democrats, particularly Liberals, know how to be happy or content. They ironically seem most happy and content when they are unhappy and discontented.

[GeorgeGist]

290. History can't be rewritten ...

the war on sanity has never been won. Not even by religion.

[lame54]

292. k&R

Sadly disappointed, and for all who say I didn't listen to Obama during the election Yes I did.
I knew he was a centrist and didn't agree with his Afghanistan or his health care policy.
But he did promise to listen to us, I took him at his word.
Sadly it was an empty promise.

[HughMoran]

295. lol

You've always been like this - you'd never like any Dem or Republican.

[Political Heretic]

303. I would take that as a compliment until Dems start working for us

and not their corporate stakeholders.

[HughMoran]

305. yeah, we know

:eyes:

Though I thank you very very much for attracting all the whiners into one place for me.

(had to edit as I undid what I did - again!)

[Political Heretic]

309. Think about what you're rolling your eyes at.

The notion that we should stand up, speak out and pressure political representatives to actually represent the interests of working class individuals and families rather than the special interests of the wealthy elite.

Yeah... :eyes: pfff...who want's to do that shit?

[HughMoran]

313. No, it's the arrogance and hypocrisy of those who think they know best how to criticize

It's so absurd on it's face that it makes me sick to my stomach that supposedly good Democrats are unable to see how awful they are behaving.

[Political Heretic]

317. "those who think they know best how to criticize"

What in your mind, makes it inappropriate for ordinary people to stand up for themselves and criticize political leaders when ordinary people don't feel like those political leaders are adequately representing their interests?

[HughMoran]

342. It's not the act of criticism itself - C'MON!!! Stop acting stupid!

It's

HOW

people criticize. And I kno wmy previous post was crystal clear on this, so you're delierately avoiding what I said.

I can't comprehend how you could imagine that anybody here is stupid enough to fall for such diversionary tactics.

[Political Heretic]

357. That's not, in point of fact, what you said at all

You said: the arrogance and hypocrisy of "those who think they know best how to criticize" make you sick.

You did not say, you have a problem with how people criticize. You said you have a problem with people who think they should criticize.

So my question is, what person or persons would be considered legitimately able to criticize if not ordinary people of the United States?


Now that you're changing what you said to having a problem with how people criticize... I'd ask you to describe for me the criteria you would require for criticism that you would not have a problem with - describe what that would look like.

[sarcasmo]

340. People who criticize are now arrogant?

[Name removed]

343. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

344. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

346. Waah!! I can completely mischaracterize your argument, but how DARE you call me on it!!!!

:wtf:


Off to ignore with you.

[Joe Fields]

310. Well you can add one more "whiner" to your list...

Please, please put me on ignore, also. My warnings are wasted on you. Anyone who is still apologizing for this load of crap that has taken place will never understand what is really happening.

[HughMoran]

314. If you can find an apology post (of mine)

I'll put you on ignore.

lol

[AtomicKitten]

300. I can and do disagree with him, respectfully.

My point of view comes from a place of goodwill toward him, and I think on that point some differ. I applaud nudging him along every step of the way, respectfully. It's the vitriol here that assaults my delicate sensibilities.

[BlooInBloo]

330. Heh indeedy.

[balantz]

302. Rec # 198. The number is growing is correct. Finally, I must say. n/t

[balantz]

304. Thank goodness the tide is beginning to turn. The daze is wearing off. n/t

[farmboxer]

306. March on Washington! America is ranked #38 in health care

that's in the world. Congress thinks we are extremely stupid. As Michael Moore said, "In France the government is afraid of the people, in America the people are afraid of the government. Congress says that Universal health care is OK for them, but not for us. Those rich bastards make me puke!

"We have the best Congress money can buy." - Will Rogers.

America is ranked #38 in the world on health care.

[sarcasmo]

345. I am surprised we are not lower than #38.

[TheKentuckian]

318. Obama is trying to do almost exactly what he ran on.

not in 2004 but in the race for the office he holds. Doing a better than fair job of matching his pitch too.

I think people need to wrap their heads around Kucinich not winning a national or a statewide office. President??? He has almost no chance of ever being a Senator. DK is a policy goldmine and craps in every other category and if he did win the White House, what the fuck do people think he could get accomplished? He inspires only the choir, he is no consensus builder, he does not wield great influence, he doesn't know where the bodies are buried, he is not charismatic, his temperament is questionable, he is not a great political strategist, he is not connected, he does not generate loyalty to himself, he lacks presence, what he is, is a policy advocate and a relentless worker for the people. Great things but not electable in the foreseeable in this country or probably anywhere nationally. His policies might be better received across the pond but his flaws would still hold him back against those with similar and often more liberal positions.

Kucinich stands out purely on positions and it has and probably always will be just one important dimension. I like the guy and the work he does but his ceiling is GREATLY exaggerated by his fans. What possible indicator has been observed that this guy can put it together and be a contender in a big pond.

It is also pretty lame to throw in unavailable options for preferable choices. I'd rather be dating a young Audrey Hepurn but that ain't in the cards right now. Maybe, if we don't send the country backwards again, in our hurry to move forward then one day we might be a country that would elect a Feingold but that day was not November, 2008. I love Sanders like a father, he's not my Senator but I write him often but I'm not fool enough to think that someone that loosely resembles Dr. Emmett Brown from "Back to the Future" and calls himself a Socialist is about to win the Presidency today.

I'd love to play cards with some of you guys. No Ace, no King means FOLD. Some need at least three Aces to place their bets.

[quaker bill]

325. Actually,

compared to this time last year, the number of us who are discontented and ready to speak out has plummeted.

It is true that not everyone is happy yet, but I for one, am quite pleased to see Bush in Crawford and with not having a president McCain.

Elections are not panaceas, regardless of how seemingly favorable the results, work will always remain to be done.

[rainlillie]

337. AMEN!

.

[rainlillie]

338. You think you guys are complaining now..

wait until the Republicans take over things. That's exactly what's going to happen if the Democrats don't get their act together.I'm willing to give the President a year, if I'm not satisfied then, I'll be more vocal. I refuse to be on the side of Rush and the rest of the right -wing parrots, who are only looking to bring the President down and get the Republicans back in power.

[sarcasmo]

341. They still sort of are running things. We have the power but the minority, the Republicans

Are still pushing us around in the House and Senate. If we don't grow a spine now when will our politicians grow a spine?

[rainlillie]

347. I agree.... However I can sleep better at night knowing that McCain and Palin

aren't in charge. Can you imagine what McCain would do about Iran?

[sarcasmo]

351. It would be a nightmare.

[SoCalDem]

328. Unfortunately we are sort of screwed..

Until we have a law against lobbying(except for humanitarian/non-profits), term limits, public financing for elections, paper ballots (hand counted), and equal time for differing viewpoints in media, we will continue to have what we have.,.

The rub is this.. the people in a position to change it all, are the same ones who got there with the system we have, they make shitloads of money for their families, and they are not gonna change anything.

[blindpig]

335. We are only screwed if we continue to acquiece.

If we continue to consider the ballot box as the sole form of political expression then we are indeed in a catch-22.

Time for something completely different. The strike, the general strike, are what it will take to get their attention. Plenty of organizing to do.

[maryf]

350. Kick for 200 recs!

Good job, PH!

[Orwellian_Ghost]

352. Wow

200 recs.

You really touched a nerve.

[Political Heretic]

358. And it sort of provides anecdotal evidence for my point. The discontent IS growing.

Slowly... but surely.

The millions of people who rallied together because they wanted real change in Washington - not just a transfer from Republican to Democrat, but real fundamental change in the way politics is done (which, lest anyone forget, is what Obama promised) are waking up to the fact that its up to us to ensure that change becomes a reality, and that includes pressuring even reluctant, suddenly entrenched-in-the-status-quo Presidents to do the bidden of the people who elected him, not the bidding of anyone else (even himself).

[ProSense]

360. No, it's the same group who didn't pay attention to his campaign, only

louder and more desperate. Obama's numbers are not as high as when he took office, but he still has massive support.


edited missing word