Guys, it's simple. I support a bonfire of women's headscarves in Tehran, but...

[derby378]

...I also realize that, for many Muslim women, wearing a hijab or an abaya is a statement of identity, modesty, and religious devotion. When the revolution passes, let them keep their scarves and wear them as their conscience dictates. I'm certain that a lot of them support Mousavi in this period of civil unrest, too.

As for the rest of the women in Iran, let them attend the bonfires, and bare their heads to the world as a sign of their disobedience to tyranny and oppression. It is their right.

[spin]

1. Agreed! (n/t)

[MineralMan]

2. As in the other thread with the same theme,

you are not a participant in the events in Iran, nor a member of their society. Therefore, you are in no position to tell the participants what they ought to or ought not to do.

It is their revolution. Perhaps they want a governmental change, but wish to preserve their religion and customs. How is that your business?

Seems a bit odd, that...

[benddem]

6. amen

these people (men)writing that the women should take off their scarves are stupid. Sure many women in Iran don't want to wear them...but many do.
We have NO business dictating what people of another culture should do.

[MineralMan]

8. Well, not being a Texan, I'm going to say that all Texas Progressives

should throw off their cowboy hats and boots. How can they call themselves progressives if they wear such reactionary garb?

[derby378]

12. This isn't about culture, it's about unjust theocratic law

Wake up. This isn't a matter of "Oh, he's just another stupid male American who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about."

All I need do is remind you of the dress code imposed on Afghan women by the Taliban. Culture? Hell, no - this was tyranny and oppression.

[hlthe2b]

15. No.. it is a post from an American (male or otherwise) who knows NOT

a flip about women and Islam... You do not understand the issues, the spectrum of attitudes among women across the most repressive, moderate, and progressive countries in the Middle East where Muslims predominate. Have you ever lived and traveled there? Have you studied Middle Eastern and Persian culture and Islamic religion? Read their newspapers? Listened to their media? I have lived and worked across the middle east and spent my early teen years in Iran prior to the Shah's overthrow. I'm as progressive an American WOMAN as any you'll come across. BUT, I am also tolerant of other cultures and religions and realize how ignorant Americans are of the world outside our borders. The media does little to help educate, either.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but you seem to just want to tell women of the Arab and Persian Middle East what to do-- however well intentioned you might believe yourself to be....
(some things NEVER change)..:eyes:

[derby378]

20. I suggest you read the OP again

As I said, any Iranian woman after the revolution who wants to keep her head covered should have the freedom to do so. That is also an expression of personal conviction and religious faith.

Relax. We're on the same side more than you think.

[hlthe2b]

22. You are saying she does NOT have the freedom to do so NOW

Think about it.... Really.

I understand you WANT to support these women, but......:shrug:

[derby378]

24. Exactly - she does not.

A woman in Iran who exposes of any part of the body other than hands and face risks getting sentenced to 60 days in jail or up to 70 lashes.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1445wmv&ak=null

[hlthe2b]

31. EXCUSE ME! Are you INTENTIONALLY misreading?

YOU YOU YOU are saying that YOU YOU YOU should decide whether it is appropriate for her to willingly veil or NOT as a symbol of revolution. YOur link has NADA to do with wearing of the chador or headscarf in Iran. NOTHING. YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT! I've been patient, but it appears you want to be purposely obtuse and belligerant, let alone disrespectful to these brave women and men out peacefully demonstrating for their own liberty and self-determination. YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE what that is for the women of Iran--especially by spewing an interpretation prominent in the most regressive Islamic countries, but has little to do with most countries. In case you haven't been looking at the women of Iran--few cover in this manner. However, it is true as MADem points out, that with the massive public revolts ongoing against the clerics and the government, that to have a mass burning of chadors, scarves, and veils, WOULD make the women a open target for retaliation... BIG TIME.

I think their protests with or without chador or scarves, or other, speak for themselves. All respect in the world to these brave men and women of Persia who are not ANYTHING like your stereotypical beliefs.

[MADem]

29. Women will be beaten in the streets by the morality police if they uncover now.

And they have been. Quite recently. Well before this election.

I've got pictures if you'd like to see them.

[hlthe2b]

33. MADem. you may be coming in late to this discussion., I think...

The OP is suggesting the women must burn their veils and chador to effectively protest (by HIS standards). Yes. what you say, MADem is correct, but it is somewhat tangential to what the OP is actually saying and proposing.

How DARE any American tell an Iranian woman what they should wear--ever--let alone what garb is appropriate for successful protest. THAT IS WHAT this OP is doing! I find it disgusting, patronizing and INCREDIBLY ignorant.

[MADem]

40. That's not what I am reading in his OP, though;

His OP is saying "This is what I might like, but it isn't up to me."

Is there some other post you can direct me to where he says "Do it my way, or else?"

[hlthe2b]

48. Most here appear to be reading the OP as I am

and finding it offensive. I hope your interpretation (in terms of intent)is the right one, however inartful the
op was in language....:shrug: I find it inherently inappropriate for an American, let alone a male American, to presume to tell a Persian woman how to demonstrate or dress

[MADem]

49. I haven't been keeping up. If this is a continuation of an old fight, I was not

a participant.

I read it as more of a personal wish than a demand, but then, I don't know the backstory.

[derby378]

9. If I were to knock on your front door...

...and hand you a new dress code, explaining that I'm a government official and that this is what all Americans are required to wear, you'd be pretty pissed off at me and tear the ordinance in half right in front of my face, which is of course your right.

You still don't get it. I am talking about the freedom of the individual to go about in society unhindered and unmolested regardless of her appearance, and you're turning it into some armchair American telling the Iranians what they should do. Iranian women deserve the same rights and freedoms that Iranian men enjoy.

[MineralMan]

11. Then I suggest that you purchase an airline ticket to

Tehran and explain your point of view to the women there who are standing at the front of the protest lines. I'm sure they'll be quite receptive. You might have to wait, though, while they dodge bullets and beatings.

You are here. They are there. You are standing in no danger whatever. They are. I suggest that their courage is not in question. Therefore, I suggest you mind your own business with regard to their manner of dress. How's that sound?

[derby378]

14. You still don't get it

When the Taliban were beating and raping women and forcing them to wear burqas, I'm sure you weren't telling those horrified by the whole thing to "mind their own business." After all, it's just their culture, right?

Right?

[MineralMan]

16. How is your telling Iranian women that they MUST throw

off their headgear any different? Do you not see that you are doing the same as the Taliban.

You are not involved in that culture. You are not a participant in what is going on there. It is none of your affair.

No doubt the women of Iran are perfectly capable of deciding how they will participate in their own struggle. Perhaps you should let them do as THEY please, instead of how YOU please.

[derby378]

21. Read the OP again before you go any further

I wasn't involved in WWII-era European Jewish culture, either. I wasn't a participant in what went on in the ghettos, on the railroad cars, in the torture chambers and gas chambers and crematoriums. After all, it was none of my affair.

Do you get it now?

[MADem]

30. Uh....that is NOT what the OP says. The little "but" in there ... read everything AFTER that.

Your commentary that only people within the culture are permitted to speak of or about this matter is interesting. Unless you're a Persian woman, by your own standard, you need to butt out then, hadn't you?

In actual fact, I think what you need to do is work on your reading comprehension skills.

[Baikonour]

47. I'd say people who went through a violent revolution in their past have at least some room to talk

and give advice.

Sure, it's their revolution. But it doesn't take a genius to see that what/who they are fighting for is no better than what/whom they currently feel oppressed by.

[sandnsea]

3. Agreed. I don't show my cleavage

Certainly doesn't make me any more or less supportive of women's rights and freedom. It's my personal choice. I don't think they need to remove their head covering to be progressive.

[Swede]

4. I love how the women are collecting stones for the men,and when

push comes to shove,they jump right in with fists and feet. This is their revolution,too.

[EFerrari]

10. Women, by all accounts, are spearheading most rights/reform movements inside Iran.

Mousavi's wife has been much more outspoken than he has on these issues, for example.

[hlthe2b]

5. It is THEIR right to determine how best to protest..

For Americans to tell them what IS and IS NOT acceptable protest (or garb) for the women of Iran is patronizing, condescending, and intolerant of their choices (let alone, ignorant of the cultural viewpoints among women across the spectrum of Muslim countries).

To see this attitude among American progressives is, for me quite disappointing--having lived part of my life in Iran, and taught/worked in both highly restrictive (S. Arabia) and more moderate Arab countries (Egypt) for a number of years

[MineralMan]

7. This is the second thread this afternoon to propose that

we should tell Iranian women how to dress for a revolution. I had no idea that DU were the fashionistas of revolution. Apparently I was incorrect.

Keyboard warriors abound!

[peacetalksforall]

13. Do not agree with OP. This is their culture (combined with religious culture). It takes a long to

change the culture. It is not our business. It is harmless to us. Let them be. Do not impose our culture on others. The reverse is repulsive to us. The Golden Rule applies. I wouldn't evey waste a breath trying to change them. Change takes place internally. I can easily hear Republican Christians demanding what the op suggests. They are already one stop ahead of other Moslems. Slowly.

[derby378]

19. The ruling elite has already imposed their so-called culture on Iranian women

You were mentioning the Golden Rule, I believe...

[Buck Laser]

17. Sorry, but I think this is a stupid idea.

The scarf is not a symbol of political oppression for many, but an affirmation of religious belief. Of course I know we have some Islam bashers in here, but I don't think they should always get their way.

[lindisfarne]

18. Taking off headscarves will not CAUSE change. If change happens, it may result in women having the

option to take off headscarves.

Currently, women who don't wear headscarves will simply be arrested. (The argument that women can make change by taking off their headscarves (and the implication that by failing to do so, they're failing to enact change) is akin to faulting slaves for failing to throw off their chains. Or saying that the choices & actions of minorities is what allows discrimination to continue.

[libodem]

23. Light 'er up

and toss in the yamakas and all the Mormon garments you can find. I 'm sick of the fancy fucking hat the Pope wears, too. Burn it!

[canetoad]

25. Tell ya a little story Derby

Around '97 or '98 the waterside workers (wharfies) in Melbourne had a lengthy strike to protest a large stevedore company replacing them with contract labourers. An old lefty friend and I decided to visit the picket line, show support, donate a little to their strike fund.

When we arrived, as well as the wharfies, every fucking fringe and non-fringe lefty group had set up little stalls for their own particular cause; Greenpeace, Save the Tasmanian Forests, Abortion Rights. You name the cause, they jumped on the bandwagon to get their two cents worth in.

It made me sick to the stomach that instead of showing solidarity with the guys doing the hard yards on the picket line, they were piggybacking on the event and using it - yes, USING, to promote their own particular cause. They were all worthy causes, but it was totally inappropriate for the time and place.

You seem to be doing the same thing; using the well-founded political protest in Iran as a vehicle to push your own pet cause which is the covering of women's heads in Islamic nations. Wake up, focus on the issue at hand and stop trying to lump all things into one protest.

[derby378]

26. My wife was in Sydney during the stevedore strike

And yes, that piggybacking does sound ridiculous, I agree with you there.

But let's say that the revolution is successful, and Mousavi becomes the new ruler of Iran and tells the ayatollah to pound sand. If women are still faced with jail or whipping if they expose anything besides their hands and face, if they are still barred for serving as judges or even attending school as adults, if they are still segregated from men in common society, what has the revolution benefitted them?

[canetoad]

27. The current revolution needs to succeed first

without distractions and side issues. The people of Iran are, at least, partially united in this cause. Headscarves are a whole other issue as are education and sexism. One thing at a time.

On the wharfies strike, your wife would know the company in question then - Patrick Stevedores (mongrels!). To my utter disgust during the strike I found out my cousin's husband, whom I barely know, was fucking Operations Manager for Patrick's, charged with defeating the strikers. I haven't spoken to him since then.

[MADem]

38. Hahahahahaha!!!

Don't mean to laugh, but that reminds me of those "International ANSWER" jokefests in DC. Every asshole with a gripe in the world shows up and demands to babble on self-importantlly on stage, but the reason that the masses were there wasn't to Free this Guy Who Was Wrongly Imprisoned, or Fight The Power on (Fill in Fringe Issue Most People Never Heard of), it was to protest the war.

As a consequence, the purpose of the protest, for those who were there to protest the war, was neatly diluted and bordered on meaningless.

There was no strong FOCUS at those things, and they just didn't transmit any urgency or fierce determination to the nation at large. I'll probably get called names for pointing this out, but oh well!

I haven't seen any of Derby's other posts on this issue, but as a stand-alone matter, hijab probably will become optional (once again) in post-clerical Iran (when that day comes). During the peaceful, pre-violence protests earlier in this process, many of the younger women were eschewing the scarf, or wearing it in "non-Islamic" fashion, as a a way to communicate their protest, ensuring they were surrounded by male fellow students who would watch their backs for them.

This woman would be beaten if walking the street, in hijab like this, alone:

[canetoad]

43. No name calling here

and you are quite right. Total dilution of the message; taking something really worth protesting over and smearing it over a large pane of glass until the substance disappears into the background.

Hijab time will come, if that is what the women of Iran wish. Just not right now, there are other, more important issues on the table.

[MADem]

28. That was one thing that Shah did "right," more or less.

He outlawed the chador, but directed the enforcement agencies to ignore the wearing of the garment.

That way, no woman could be told by some overly-pious asshole what she "should" be wearing (it was against the law, you see), but if women wanted to wear it, they did. They knew what the deal was, too, as regards the law.

You never saw the chador in some venues during the Shah era. You always saw it, or at least hijab, in the Holy Cities.

[Psychic Consortium]

32. A person's soul and character are more important than her attire. Those who risk their lives

may wear what they choose.

[Party Person]

34. I knew this would happen

people trying to graft their own busybody agenda onto this thing. Maybe they can recognize Israel and let us bring our oil companies in too, LOL.

[mamaleah]

35. Democracy and feminism does not always look like Paris Hilton

I find it funny that so many people think that it must.


There are feminists who are atheists, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists...you name it. Some of them dress modestly purely out of preference and some according to religion. Some do not. It does not make any of them less or more feminist or make their desire for democracy any more or less strong.

let them keep their scarves and wear them as their conscience dictates

A woman with hijab is no less revolutionary than a woman without hijab. And they sure do not need your permission to wear hijab.

[derby378]

37. Exactly - I agree with you 100%

There are so many people on this thread who seem to think I want all Iranian women forcibly deprived of their headscarves. I have said no such thing.

The decision to wear a hijab must be the woman's own choice. Not her husband's, not her father's, not her cleric's, not her ruler's.

[mamaleah]

39. But you seem to want them all off now and back on after

Look, I cover my hair because of my religious beliefs. I get an added bonus of not having to do my hair every morning too. :P

I would not stop covering my hair for anyone or any reason. Not even for a day. I go out, I cover my hair. End of story. For many Muslim women, it is the same. They would not go out without hijab for any reason. So why burn them today, but its ok to put them on after? That makes no sense.

[derby378]

42. The bonfire I talked about in the OP was for those who renounced the hijab

I wasn't trying to convey the message that the hijab should be removed until after the revolution, and after that, do whatever you want. If the headscarf is a statement of your faith, by all means, don't let anyone tell you that you cannot wear it. I would never presume to tell an observant Jewish male to remove his yarmulke, either.

[Hannah Bell]

44. not wearing hats or scarves = "freedom", don't you know that?

ability to follow mass-produced consumer fashion trends = freedom.

now go out & put on your bikini.

[derby378]

45. A little late, aren't you?

Iranians have been quoted as saying they don't want their daughters to emulate Britney Spears. I don't want American children to emulate her, either.

[Hannah Bell]

46. late for what? the op was written today. i'm not talking to iranians,but DU-ers.

[malaise]

36. Is Iran a US colony

How is this the concern of anyone outside of Iran?

[Karenina]

41. Good question.

:freak::shrug::freak: