NY Times: In a Suburban Gangland, Young Lives Cut Short

[marmar]

In a Suburban Gangland, Young Lives Cut Short

By SARAH GARLAND
Published: June 19, 2009


UNIONDALE, N.Y.

THE phone rang at 4 p.m., just as Francisco Dueñas was leaving his house here on a tidy Long Island block with trimmed hedges. He had no time to talk. He was serving at a wedding reception that started in half an hour, and was already dressed in his tuxedo with the sleeves pulled down over his tattooed arms.

Francisco answered anyway. He recognized the number as belonging to El Niño, a 15-year-old nicknamed for his baby face whom Francisco had taken under his wing the year before, tutoring him in the rules of his gang, Salvadorans With Pride.

“They just stabbed Mikey on the handball court,” the boy said. He sounded panicked.

“Who did?” Francisco asked.

El Niño answered with a curse in Spanish: the slang they used to refer to their rival gang, Mara Salvatrucha.

Mikey — Michael Alguera — was also 15, the younger brother of a friend Francisco had known since middle school. Francisco, now 20, had played hundreds of handball games on the court between Hempstead High School and the Garden City golf course. He usually lost when he was matched up against Mikey, a handball whiz. ..............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/nyregion/21gangs.html?_r=1&hp

[madeline_con]

1. Life would be shorter for these illegals at home? n/t

[vadawg]

2. Yeah but if the illegals who are gang members were at home, people here would be a lot safer

sorry to say but my kids come before some punk who thinks gangbanging is a good life choice.

[madeline_con]

4. That's the point I was making.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I disagree

We had gangs and crimes before this generation and until we deal with the economic realities that guarantee a permanent underclass, we will have crime and gangs. The only difference is the race of the gang members.

[vadawg]

11. you do realise that gangs are not all about poverty, its a culture

there are plenty of middle class and rich kids who buy into the gang shit, treating them as though its not there fault is not the answer either, these are not misunderstood kids etc they are willing to do whatever to get ahead in their gang.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. Treating them as if they are not welcome here doesn't solve anything either

Poverty contributes to gang growth. These kids have so few choices. In some states, if they weren't born here, they can't even be admitted to college. One of the very brightest students I have ever known is now 22 and working at Wendys because she can't get into college since she wasn't born here.

The middle and upper class kids who buy into this gang shit are just taking in a fad. They at least have choices. Low income minorty kids do not.

[vadawg]

17. you want to gangbang then hell you shouldnt be welcome here

everybody has choices, the poor kid has the choice to pick up the gun and rob the store same as you have or myself. Making excuses for criminal gangs wont get you much sympathy. You want to seperate the good kids from the bad fine, but dont think for a second that the gang member deserves any sympathy from you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. So the white kids who were born here and are gang banging shouldn't be welcome either?

[vadawg]

21. if you buy into the gang shit then no you shouldnt be welcome, but the american kids

whether black, white, asian or hispanic cant be deported so its not an option for them, but when you can deport then its a good tool to get a gangbanger outta the country.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. And you honestly believe deporting them will solve the problem?

Until we deal with the causes of gang violence, we will just keep growing more gang members to replace the ones we deport.

It's a systemic problem.

[vadawg]

33. Better to deport them than to release them back into your community to go back to banging

and recruiting other members, not sure what you think would work, unless you are going to give kids wads of cash etc there are gonna be kids looking for the lifestyle, all we can do is fuck with them enough that it becomes uneconomical and inhibiting that the lifestyle isnt worth it, lots of jail time and difficult business environment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I prefer education and opportunites to deportation

Again, they did not choose to come here.

[vadawg]

40. your dreaming, hardcore bangers are not going to swap your classroom for the dough they make

and the respect they think they get on the streets, you may peel of a few individuals but their always another soldier ready to step up as you said.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. I actually know quite a few who have made that choice you claim they won't make

Again, I have spent 30 years working with these kids. My feet are on the street.

[vadawg]

52. quite a few, how many is that exactly, considering that one of the smaller gangs i work with

has over 200 menbers confirmed and a larger one a couple of thousand in my county alone, unless you are talking huge figures over thirty years it aint working.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. I couldn't even begin to count

How do you "work with" these gangs?

[vadawg]

65. Me i fuck with them daily in order that they dont get a chance to fuck with you

daily i put it on the line to give them a bad day along with members of my unit, i get to give the notification to family members of their victims, i get to visit their victims in hospital, i get to talk to them every day, i get to be informed that i am green lighted and to call my wife to tell her to make sure she carries "just in case" i get to live 50 miles from were i work, i get to have my vehicle registered to a fake address so it cant be traced to my house, ig et to do all this in order for you to get a chance to mayby reach one kid who can be changed. You know what i would do this even if they didnt pay me, because everyone of these kids as you call them that i get of the street means that someones mother, father, kid etc dosent have to deal with the possibility of running across them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. Like I said, my work focuses on keeping you from ever meeting them.

Now instead of continuing conversations on the internet all afternoon, I am going to spend some time with one of them I hope you never meet. :hi:

[vadawg]

74. unless he bangs or commits a crime he probuably wont...

[alarimer]

91. You are the ones that give other cops a bad name.

You wonder why cops are hated. It's because of guys like you, using racist intimidation. Fucking fascists.

[vadawg]

93. okay explain the racist thing, im pretty sure i spend my time fucking

all races in gangs, this is going to be good how you pull jailing bangers as being racist. I will give you a clue, one group i deal with a lot are the Aryan Brotherhood, i also deal with Outlaw motorbike gangs, also crips, bloods, MS, TRG on and on and on. I think your post can be catalogued as a big epic fail.

[lindisfarne]

35. Deporting illegals means that those who follow legal processes have a better chance of getting

a visa. The people who follow the legal processes are even poorer than the ones who come in illegally - the illegal ones managed to find the money (often through illegal means) to pay someone thousands of dollars to help smuggle them in.

The US cannot absorb all those who desire to come here. We should be helping their countries to improve their economies. That's how we best help these people - not by allowing illegals to stay.

Some will read this and say I'm anti-immigrant. In fact, I'm not. I am, however, a realist. We have legal pathways to immigrate and those who follow them should be rewarded. Granting amnesty to those who illegally immigrated years ago only rewards those who fail to follow the law, and decreases the chance that those who follow legal pathways can get visas (because the quota is adjusted downward to offset the illegals who get amnesty).

I feel sorry for the kids who have lived many years in the US, but that is the fault of the parents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. It is nearly impossible to get a visa and come here legally for many who choose to come illegally

Study up on the immigration laws. I was shocked when I did that. A white European can come here on a Visa and become a citizen in 4 years. A Hispanic from Central America has to wait as long as 18 months to begin the process of applying for the Visa. Then if they eventually do get permission to come, they are not allowed to even apply for citizenship because of the quota system. The opportunities are not the same, so it's really not fair to say 'well, they should come legally like others do'.

[lindisfarne]

67. In fact, we admit many more Central Americans than we do Europeans. Using your logic,

we are discriminating against Europeans.

[proud2BlibKansan]

73. Read up on the law

We have quotas against Central Americans.

[lindisfarne]

81. We limit the number of immigrants from all countries. It's just Europeans aren't queuing up

to immigrate. We used to limit certain groups of Western Europeans, too! And are still limiting Europeans from certain countries (mostly, formerly Soviet bloc countries).

Nearly half of all new legal immigrants came from just ten countries.
The top countries of birth for immigrants in FY 2005 were Mexico (161,445), India (84,681), China (69,967), the Philippines (60,748), Cuba (36,261), Vietnam (32,784), the Dominican Republic (27,504), Korea (26,562), Colombia (25,571), and Ukraine (22,761). Ukraine was a new addition to the list of top ten sending countries of new LPRs, while El Salvador fell out of the top ten. The number of legal immigrants from Mexico declined 8.0 percent (13,966) from the number in FY 2004 and the number from the Dominican Republic declined 9.8 percent (3,002). The other eight countries experienced growth over their FY 2004 levels. Despite the decline in legal immigration from Mexico, the number of new LPRs from Mexico was still about twice that from India, the next largest LPR-sending country.

www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS13_immigration_US_2006.pdf -

[madeline_con]

72. You don't think the 18 mo. rule has anything to do with the # of Hispanic illegals?n/t

[Merlot]

85. Gang members were once babies, born to parents who lived in poverty

and were in gangs them selves. How in the world does a child born into these circumstances have even a context to develop a "choice" about whether or not to become a gangbanger? It's not a choice, it's a life. Sure some kids by luck, or intervention of a caring adult may be able to find a better life. But to imagine that children can make moral choices when not presented with alternatives is not realistic.

That doesn't mean I'm defending gangbangers or criminals. I'm only saying that they faced things early in their lives that most people can't even begin to imagine.

[vadawg]

89. not every banger comes from poverty, if you believe its poverty based your wrong

in fact ive yet to meet a TRG member who wasnt from a lot of money, its a lifestyle thing, i also see plenty of kids from poverty who dont get involved and try to get on in life and end up dead or injured for not showing adequate respect to a banger.

[Merlot]

96. Obviously there is a lot of money in gangs

Poverty also means lack of education about other lifestyles, lack of family connections, lack of commuity. A child that grows up with death and distruction is in poverty, no matter how much money they have. Any child that lives with the threat of being killed or maimed for not showing respect to a banger is living in poverty.

No where did I say that everyone who is born into poverty is drawn to a life of crime.

[vadawg]

98. we are talking across each other, i was just saying that i deal with a lot of bangers

who came from priviledge, lots of money, caring parents etc, strong support structures, its not always about the money, its about respect, the lifestyle, etc there are a lot of motivations for banging. Every person is at risk for maiming for not showing respect, you would be surprised at how much gang activity goes on without the general public even knowing, all we do is try to pick up the pieces and keep a lid on it and jail the worst bangers.

[Merlot]

100. Yes, I can see that side of it too.

Sadly, I probably wouldn't be suprised at how much gang activity goes on with out the general public even knowing. I watch the "legal" criminals get a way with murder, so I can easily imagine what the "illegial" criminals manage to do.

[vadawg]

102. for me its not about legal or illegal, illegal just means i can get them deported

for gang participation so it helps to mess up their day, a lot of people onthis site seem to not realise that street gangs are multi ethnic, multi nationality, multi race and multi socioeconomic status, what they all have in common is that they are not good people, or misunderstood people, or people we can help, the majority of the bangers etc like the lifestyle and the money they earn.

[lindisfarne]

27. To some degree, I agree. But there have been cases of them being deported and in fact,

we just end up deporting the gang behavior to a Central American (usually) country that has little ability to deal with the rise in gang activity which results.

[vadawg]

37. unfortunately its a case of better the gang there than here, personally i would rather that

paco is in el salvador (if hes MS) than living in my street.

[lindisfarne]

42. Is "Paco" an ethnic slur? On an emotional level, I can understand that argument but more deaths will

result in the country less able to deal with the gang violence. From that perspective, deportation is not the best answer. (Plus, the person could end up back in the US and if so, wouldn't be in prison where s/he would be somewhat more controlled.)

[vadawg]

48. nah paco is just on MS member i served with a deportation order a couple of days ago

hopefully when he arrives in el salvador someone will off him so he dosent rape again.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Grammar matters

Proper names are capitalized. Without that capital letter, it does appear to be an ethnic slur.

[lindisfarne]

62. The capitalization might matter if proper punctuation had been followed everywhere else in the post.

But it wasn't. I often don't use proper capitalization in emails to friends, etc., so I won't overinterpret the lack of capitalization of "Paco".

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. There is more than one post and conclusions can be drawn

Just sayin.

[lindisfarne]

68. The poster did not properly punctuate "he's, it's, I" in same msg-or capitalize anything except MS.

or "El Salvador"

Just as you did not properly spell "saying".
I personally hate "Just sayin" tags. I have no idea what they mean. They're meaningless. Leave them out. A pet peeve of mine, but if you want to say something, try to make your meaning clear.

Just for the record: if you can change "it's" to "it is", you need the apostrophe. If not, no apostrophe.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. Did I spell 'it's' wrong?

I don't need the grammar lecture. Thanks anyway.

[lindisfarne]

77. You just gave a grammar lecture concerning capitalization of "Paco". The comment on it's vs. its

was for all, not just you.

If you can't take the grammar lecture, don't dish it out.

[lindisfarne]

79. But realistically, you know this person will likely rape in El Salvador before that happens, if it

ever happens. Is that fate fair to the women? Perhaps imprisonment in the US would have been the better option (I'm aware of the cost, but what's the cost of a rape, even in El Salvador?).

[vadawg]

84. oh hes already did his time here, he gets released ina couple of months

dude is a total scumbag whos probuably got even more stuff that he wasnt caught for, we ar hoping that hes been greenlighted by MS back in el salvador for some shit as we sure as hell dont want him coming back to commit more.

[lindisfarne]

86. Too bad he didn't get more time. But there's a good chance he'll end up back here - even with the

border tightening up. The worst scum know how to get back.

[vadawg]

90. Yup we already are starting to work up a plan if he comes back

how we will deal with him, luckily the gang laws are very tough in VA so i can guarentee we will get him on gang participation within hours of him showing up.

[alarimer]

92. Yes, it is an ethnic slur.

Just like using the N word or similar.

But cops like him don't give a shit. They are racist shitheads. And he wonders why people hate cops.

[vadawg]

94. wow so if i mention bob who i arrested last week for gang partic

then that must be an ethnic slur for white people, epic fucking fail.

[proud2BlibKansan]

3. Their home is here

Especially the kids. They didn't make the decision to come here.

[vadawg]

5. not the ones i see, if they are here illegally then surely that means that their home country is not

the US, getting away from the point, the gangbangers are pervasisve in our culture now and its going to get a lot worse, will be interesting to see what happens when it explodes into areas so far untouched.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. The are brought here as children

Which part of that do you not understand? They have grown up here. This is their home. Just because they weren't born here doesn't make this their home.

[vadawg]

13. legally they are either legal or illegal regardless of what you or i think

if they engage in gang activity they should have their asses deported regardless of where they think they should call home.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. They are threatened with violence if they DON'T join a gang

Again, they have few choices. Join a gang and become a criminal or refuse and get the shit bit out of you or get murdered.

A few months ago, I sat with a 12 year old waiting for an ambulance after he was beaten with a baseball bat for refusing to join a gang in his neighborhood. Don't tell me he would be better off if his ass was deported. He would be better off if we treated people like human beings who deserve compassion, choices and protection.

[vadawg]

yeah so we should be happy that the 12 year old gets jumped in

then when he kills someone during the commision of a crime we should let him go because its not his fault. I am sorry but you just told us about a poor kid getting beaten then say we should have compassion towards the gangbangers who beat him, can you not see the problem with this.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. Who said he had killed anyone?

He was playing basketball and got jumped by the gang who was trying to recruit him. And yes, I have compassion for all of them. It's called being human and understanding what our culture and society and government policies have done to create this mess. And doing what I can to help, rather than sitting at a computer and blaming kids who didn't choose to come here, legally or not.

Put some money where your mouth is, as I have, and try to fix the problem instead of complaining about it. I have no patience for people like you who just launch attacks on the internet. Go out into your community and try to help some of these kids. Give them opportunities istead of labeling them as evil. They aren't going to go away and this gang violence is just going to get worse unless we all care enough to give kids other opportunities.

[vadawg]

46. lo you dont think i work with these bangers every day, whether i am in the jail or

on the street all i do is work with bangers, right now i am in a block with 60 inmates a couple of whom deny gang affiliation but i just asked them would they rather have their own street corner producing $5000 a month or a chance at college, both said the corner. As i said its easy when you dont have to tell someone that their loved one is dead because some banger didnt feel respected.

[madeline_con]

50. "Go out into your community and try to help some of these kids."

You "have no patience for people like you who just launch attacks on the internet."

Yet you make assumptions and get a holier than thou attitude because some DUers don't agree with you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. This goes way beyond simple disagreement

But I think you know that.

[madeline_con]

78. No, you Thinking that does not mean I KNOW it.

Since you're whining about grammar and conventions, I only capiltalized because the italics tag doesn't work in titles. I hope that helps you stay on topic, instead of wandering into Writing Police mode when a response escapes you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. When I was 6 months old, my parents moved me to a different state

I consider that state my home, not the one where I was born and lived till I was 6 months old. I don't even remember living in the state where I was born. It is no different for kids whose parents bring them acrosss the border. This is their home.

[madeline_con]

56. Do you think Francisco remembers home? He was 12 when he left. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. So remembering it is now the standard?

LOL

[madeline_con]

80. You know so much about 12 year olds, you tell me, do they ever do

anything they want to do, or are the adults in their lives in complete control?

[marmar]

6. Thank you.....I just avoided reacting to the responses.

n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. That story is so sad and it hits home for me

I teach these kids. They are every bit as American as my own white kids are.

[vadawg]

14. it hits home for me to, i pick up the pieces when these poor kids who decide to be gangbangers

open up on a sidewalk, or machete someone or rob someone, these kids are not your friend and if killing you was ordered they would do it in a heartbeat.

[EFerrari]

59. Well, the US government wasn't their friend when they displaced, what,

a third of the population of El Salvador with their proxy war. Consequences suck.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. Bingo

It's way past time for the US to recognize its reponsibility in this mess.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. And I am doing my best to keep them from ever having to meet you.

[vadawg]

7. but they make the decision to gang bang, not that they have much choice sometimes

but its still the innocent people who end up bearing the brunt of their decisions.

[madeline_con]

9. So, illegals' kids who are smuggled across the border automatically become citizens?

I don't think that's how it works.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Nice leap

They have lived here since they were small children, even babies. This is the only home they have ever known. I find it wrong to punish them and prefer helping them. I could give a rat's ass if they don't have a piece of paper that says they are citizens. But then, I have a heart.

[madeline_con]

22. "They have lived here since they were small children, even babies"

From the article: "Francisco was 12 when he crossed from Tijuana to San Diego in 2001, stuffed in the trunk of a Honda next to several strangers."

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. And a 12 year old freely chooses to cross the border illegally?

[madeline_con]

30. If you think that's out of the realm of possibility, you don't know very many 12 yo's n/t.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. I have spent 30 years working with 12 year olds

I am certain I understand them a lot better than you do.

[madeline_con]

44. And I'm certain you are presumptuous about those who disagree with you on illegal immigration. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. And you are grossly misinformed

:hi:

[marmar]

19. Where did that come from?

:shrug:

[madeline_con]

23. I read it in a NYT article posted at the top of this thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/nyregion/21gangs.html...

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. You are going to have to quote the part of that article

that says "illegals' kids who are smuggled across the border automatically become citizens".

[madeline_con]

39. No, I'm not going to have to do anything.

It wasn't a quote from the article.

[marmar]

41. So you just made some stuff up out of whole cloth?

n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

54. Then why are you linking the article as your source?

[madeline_con]

64. You said their home is here.

It is now, but if they're here illegally, the whole family should return from whence they came. A mother coming here illegally and later smuggling her children here does not deserve special treatment or more rights than those who go through proper channels to become citizens.

The article explained their illegal status.

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Their home is here

because they live here.

We have had this 'proper channels' discussion before. When you close a door, that doesn't mean some won't try to open it.

And a 12 year old is legally incapable of going through 'proper channels' anyway.

[madeline_con]

82. Fransisco isn't 12 anymore. n/t

[EFerrari]

70. For all the horrible crap the US government has done in El Salvador

these people shouldn't be forced to travel here to have a hope of a living. It would be more efficient to subsidize them directly at home, reparations. And that would save the delicate sensibilities of those who don't want to deal with "illegals".

[tuckessee]

76. If their home is here why call their criminal enterprise "Salvadorans With Pride"?

"Home" is where the heart & soul are, not where the physical body eats, shits & sleeps.

edit - typo in title

[madeline_con]

83. Hear hear! "Criminal" being the operative word. n/t

[vadawg]

87. people forget that these gangs are not social groups they are hardened criminals

i just dont get why people dont get it, anybody who deals with these guys and disrespects them in any way gets it, as do people who are victimised by them.

[EFerrari]

95. Chickens come home. We fund, train and supply the most brutal

sadistic murderous government in LatAm after Pinochet. The people are raped, tortured, disappeared, massacred and displaced and for years. We prop up the deadenders after our dirty war for twenty years, pay for and rig their elections so they can keep living off the sweat of the poor who managed to survive the war. And now we don't like how these kids turned out?

How profoundly American.

[vadawg]

97. not american, common sense, and blaming gangs on american foreign policy is dumb

some gangs are results of US policy, others are just due to internal shit, from the race gangs, to prison gangs, to rich kids forming gangs, you have to get away from the idea its all about poverty, its about mindset and lifestyle, smile now cry later.

[EFerrari]

99. I am talking about El Salvador. You've heard of the place, right?

And I didn't say it was all about poverty. It's at least half about the brutality that you and I paid for in money and that these kids, everyone of them, paid for in family members and neighbors.

[vadawg]

101. i didnt pay for it in anyway, and im talking about gangs in general

el salvador isnt the only country were gangs come from or that has people in gangs. Plus theres plenty of people from war zones who dont participate, i would even say its a small minority of the salvadoran population i deal with who are members of any gang or even affiliates.

[EFerrari]

103. So you don't think all immigrants from El Salvador are hardened criminals.

That's nice. I'll be sure to pass that on to my mom. However, discounting the context of these "Hispanic illegals" and why they are here is bullshit. And unless you were too young to pay taxes right up through this year, yes, your tax money has paid for US policy in El Salvador.

Somehow, they just managed to have a real election and the leftist won. If we don't fuck with them, they may be able to put themselves back together in ten or twenty years.

[vadawg]

104. ok though t you were talking about the civil war, and yes i think i stated that all salvadorans are

not hardened criminals, same as all white people are not, or all mongolians, criminals are like assholes every race and group has them, my job is just to stomp them (for want of a better phrase) so your mother dosent have to deal with them, or you dont run afoul of them.

[shadowknows69]

29. If the times wants some stories come up to Syracuse

There's a war zone going on 60 miles from me. Multiple shootings/stabbings on nearly a daily basis now. A few that seem like gang initiation shit. Several innocent bystanders simply shot at red lights and such.

[marmar]

32. My first job out of college was in Syracuse.....

..... in which city is all of that drama going on? Seems like gang activity was just getting going in Oswego when I lived there in the mid-90s.

[shadowknows69]

45. I meant Syracuse. I'm actually north of it 60 miles. Sorry for the confusion.

[marmar]

47. Wow. I didn't realize the 'Cuse had gone so crazy.....

...... but I haven't been keeping in good touch with my friends back there, admittedly.

[shadowknows69]

53. It's nuts it really is. I'm surprised more hasn't seeped up here yet. Knock on wood

Because the gang tags round town are increasing and the heroin, meth and crack have infested my city badly for over a decade now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. Every time the economy goes south, the crime rate goes up

[lindisfarne]

88. The top countries of birth for immigrants in FY 2005 were Mexico (161,445), India (84,681),

The top countries of birth for immigrants in FY 2005 were Mexico (161,445), India (84,681), China (69,967), the Philippines (60,748), Cuba (36,261), Vietnam (32,784), the Dominican Republic (27,504), Korea (26,562), Colombia (25,571), and Ukraine (22,761). Ukraine was a new addition to the list of top ten sending countries of new LPRs, while El Salvador fell out of the top ten. The number of legal immigrants from Mexico declined 8.0 percent (13,966) from the number in FY 2004 and the number from the Dominican Republic declined 9.8 percent (3,002). The other eight countries experienced growth over their FY 2004 levels. Despite the decline in legal immigration from Mexico, the number of new LPRs from Mexico was still about twice that from India, the next largest LPR-sending country.
www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS13_immigration_US_2006.pdf -