Greece demands UK return antiquities

[XOKCowboy]

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/20/greece-demands-abducted-statues-back-from-britain/

Greek President Carolos Papoulias on Saturday ramped up pressure on Britain to return priceless statues from antiquity taken over 200 years ago as the new Acropolis Museum was opened in Athens.

The Greek leader reiterated his country’s longstanding call for the return of the Elgin Marbles at the solemn ceremony to inaugurate the giant 130-million-euro (180-million-dollar) glass and concrete building.

About half of the Parthenon Marbles — fifth-century Greek sculptures, inscriptions and architectural columns from the Parthenon and other buildings on the symbolic Acropolis hill — are intact in the museum.

Of the remainder, most are held in London’s British Museum after they were hacked away in the early 1800s on the orders of a British aristocrat and diplomat, Lord Elgin, under a deal with the ruling Ottoman Empire. Replicas have been erected in the new galleries.

I've been to the BM, Windsor Castle and the Tower of London and was amazed at the riches (plunder) that were accumulated during the British Empire. Incredible things from all over the world. I'm of the opinion that it's ill-gotten gains and should be returned to it's owners when requested.

Am I wrong here?

[WeDidIt]

1. It'll never happen

That'd be like the U.S. giving back the land to the NAtive Americans.

[XOKCowboy]

5. Heck we'd just like to have Geronimo's skull back from the Yalies!

My grandmother was a full-blood so don't get me started on that.

[CTyankee]

12. Well, see my post downthread. Not long ago, the Yale Daily News had an update on the Geronimo issue.

The thinking now is that it was a made up story. What is outrageous about it is the self important, demeaning purpose behind the story. Bunch of pompous Yalies full of self importance. Bunch of racists is what they were...you and your grandmother are rightfully outraged.

[DemoTex]

2. Rotsa Ruck!

Join the que just behind Egypt. And don't hold your breath.

[XOKCowboy]

4. I liked this part....

The museum, which had its origins in British jibes that Greece would have nowhere to display what are known in London as the Elgin Marbles if ever they were returned, was designed to host the reunited artworks.

From scanning the web this has been going on a long time. I've got to side with Greece (and Egypt) on this one. It's THEIR heritage. To the Brits it's just a novelty.

[CTyankee]

3. Don't even get me STARTED on the plunder by Yale of Macchu Pichu.

A Yale professor, Hiram Bingham, plundered stuff from Macchu Pichu in the early 20s. They are still on display here in New Haven at Yale's Peabody Museum. The government of Peru has demanded them back and is now suing. Yale has its freaking nerve hanging onto these treasures.

I get so steamed by this and by England holding onto the marbles. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. It's an outrage and it's going on now and in one case in MY OWN CITY.

[KittyWampus]

6. As an anthropologist, I must point out that even if westerners hadn't looted antiquities

that doesn't mean they'd have remained intact. In fact, it's probably damned certain most would have been plundered, rotted, destroyed long ago.

And western culture is where we find scientific inquiry and the knowledge and inclination to even bother excavating ruins and recording history.

[CTyankee]

8. I know this argument well, having heard numerous Yale spokespersons articulate it.

Art and antiquities have not always survived "western culture." Twelfth century art by Hildegard of Bingen did not survive the Allied raid on Dresden. Caravaggio's original "St. Matthew and the Angel" did not survive our bombing of Berlin. And plunder? Hah. Ever hear about what the Nazis did to the art it wanted? And Franco would doubtless have destroyed "Guernica" if he could have gotten his hands on it before Picasso smuggled it to London, thence to NYC and MOMA.

Plus, this is here and now. The antiquities of Macchu Pichu belong to the people of Peru. And they want it back. Period.

[imdjh]

15. Did Yale steal the artifacts? That's the only relevant question.

For our discussion. Obviously , Yale is in some form of a agreement to return the artifacts, but there appear to be some breakdowns in the negotiations. Did Yale (or Bingham) take those artifacts from Peru without the legal right to do so? Not today's legal right under some kind of philosophical understanding of antiquities, I mean in 1912 (or whenever) did he legally leave the country with the stuff?

[CTyankee]

17. He just took them. I don't think there was a legal question raised at the time.

Frankly, I don't think that matters. Bingham had no moral authority to just pack them up and make off with them. It's Bingham's total arrogance, typical of his day in Western countries, that we were better than those natives in Peru and we could just highhandedly walk off with their treasures because we knew "best." I can't believe we have that attitude today. It's a vestige of colonialsm and it's a disgrace.

Yes, Yale is in some form of agreement to return them but dragging its feet. Yale should crate them up and send them back now.

[KittyWampus]

37. Legalities are NEVER the only relevant question on a discussion board. Is the fact Scott Roeder

is seen by the eyes of the law innocent the only relevant question about Dr. Tiller's murder?

[imdjh]

11. I agree, but there is also another principle in play.

There seems to be some common thread to the opinions of some that at no time before the present was anything legal and therefore "justice" is only defined in the moment and based on ones perception, generally, of who the underdog is.

Right here on DU we have had persons (I honestly can't recall the names) who make an offhand and ill considered remark about the right of the worker to the fruits of his labor which if followed to a logical conclusion would demand that I return this Macbook to some guy in China.

Some descendants of German Jews, or the principals themselves have been able to recover an artwork stolen by the Nazis. This seems to make sense in those cases where one can prove that one had ownership, that one acquired the work legally himself, that it was stolen from him, and that he is indeed the person who once owned it. Going back 200 years would be another matter. How in god's name would we know that Herman Austerlitz actually acquired Lady Sitting At A Table legally to sell it to the person who sold it to the person who sold it to Simon Goldfarb who had it stolen by the Nazis. If it's a French painting, should it be returned to France?

If the Ottoman Empire was the legitimate government of Greece at the time of the acquisition, and given the history of Greece up to that point why would we think it wasn't, then they had the right to sell the marbles to the passing nobility. I'd almost guarantee they laughed all the way to the bank.

[CTyankee]

14. When such antiquities, by their very historic nature endemic to the country's culture, are

so closely identified with the heart and soul of that country's heritage, it belongs to the people of that country, not to its one time conqueror who came in and became overlords. The UK has no moral right to the ownership of the Elgin Marbles.

[imdjh]

22. If Sitting Bull sold his ggrandfather's necklace to my ggrandfather and I still have it...

.. do I own it?

[CTyankee]

34. Well, I don't think your analogy is at all legitimate but if the heirs of Sitting Bull wanted it ba

I would give it back.

[imdjh]

38. I wouldn't

I wouldn't give it "back" to the heirs of Sitting Bull anymore than I would give away anything else which legally belongs to me. I surely would not give it to some nebulous category of "heirs" described as "Sitting Bull's people" or the even broader category of American Indians in general. I might lend it to the Smithsonian with a list of conditions, one of which being that it would actually be on display and not kept in a box in their warehouse.

[CTyankee]

39. Of course it would depend on circumstances. However, I don't know why in the world I wouldever

want to keep such an item if someone legitimately laid claim to it. Just me, I guess. I give away lots of things and happily so.

[imdjh]

40. Are we still talking about Sitting Bull's necklace scenario?

If we are, then the only person with a legitimate claim to it is me. It belonged to Sitting Bull, and he SOLD it to my ggrandfather, who PAID the asking price. Are you saying that Sitting Bull didn't have the right to sell his own property, perhaps because he didn't know how valuable or significant it was or would be? That's starting to sound a bit paternalistic.

[CTyankee]

46. This scenario is a bit ridiculous but ok, if SB were in a position to sell anything and keep

what he got, if he were on equal footing with your grandfather, well maybe you have a point. I don't think any native american had such footing but whatever...

[Confusious]

24. I'm sick of this

Its not just their heritage, its THE HUMAN RACES' HERITAGE. If they can take care of it, then fine. Egypt has got so much damn mummy stuff its rotting away.

[JackRiddler]

18. Another lie: The British Museum did irreparable harm to the Elgin Marbles.

It's not for thieves to decide where the plunder will be safer. The marbles could as easily have been destroyed in the WWII bombings of London as (if they had stayed in Greece) wiped out by some calamity in Greece.

At any rate, it is yet another myth of the British imperialists that the British Museum took care of the marbles. In fact, they harmed the marbles - exactly as one would expect from pirates.

(Following stories from 1999 - you should have known this story by now, KittyWampus, if you wish to speak with authority on this issue...)

http://www.museum-security.org/99/104.html

Museum to come clean over Elgin Marbles

By Nigel Reynolds, Arts Correspondent

FRESH evidence about high-level cover-ups, bribery, barbarism and Britain's legal claim to the Elgin Marbles will be presented tomorrow to a conference of academics.

George Papandreou, Greek foreign minister, shows his family the Elgin Marbles during a visit to the British Museum

With pressure mounting on Britain to return the Marbles to Athens, the British Museum has convened the conference to investigate an episode 60 years ago when museum workers scraped clean many of the marbles to make them appear white. Two dozen conservation and archaeology specialists from around the world will sit for two days to take evidence from the museum, its accusers and the Greek government into the episode. They will hear allegations that in the Thirties unskilled workers "skinned" some of the 2,500-year-old marbles by using wire wool, carborundum, hammers and chisels to remove their original stained patina and the last traces of paint with which they were decorated. They will also hear claims that the museum's trustees at the time, who included Stanley Baldwin and the Archbishop of Canterbury, subsequently hushed up the damage and misled Parliament and even Prime Ministers.

The museum was forced to call tomorrow's conference after publication last year of a book exposing the scandal by William St Clair, a former senior Treasury official, amateur classicist and archaeological sleuth. In his book, Mr St Clair, 61, who studied Greek sculpture at Oxford before joining the Civil Service, said the damage affected the surfaces of 80 per cent of the marbles and was irreparable. Since then, he says, he has uncovered further examples of damage and evidence casting doubt on Britain's claims to have legal title to the marbles, which once adorned the Parthenon. Britain's resistance to returning the marbles is largely based on the defence that in 1801 the adventurer Lord Elgin was given permission by the Turks, who then ruled Greece, to remove them.

Mr St Clair, who wll appear as the first witness at the conference, says he has now uncovered evidence that Lord Elgin bribed local Turkish officials to allow him to remove many more pieces than he was given formal permission for. According to papers he has found in the Elgin family archives, the bribes amounted to 25 per cent of the total cost of Lord Elgin's removal expedition. The British Museum has always maintained that the damage was not significant, that it has always been open about it and that Mr St Clair has exaggerated his claims. But he says the museum has ignored the "30-year rule" on releasing official papers by refusing to admit the existence of vital documents. In his book last year, Mr St Clair disclosed that the then Archbishop of Canterbury chaired an internal inquiry into the damage in 1939. It examined only three marbles and concluded that one of them had been "skinned". When the book came out, the museum admitted to The Telegraph that it had been guilty of "a misjudgment" in not previously disclosing the inquiry's findings.

The conference will also hear evidence from an official team of Greek archaeologists which was allowed to study the marbles last month after the row over Mr St Clair's claims. It will say that damage is worse than had been realised and that many details have been lost or distorted. The museum is expected to mount a vigorous defence of the cleaning while admitting that it has been less than open about disclosing all the facts.

--

Greece Reports on Parthenon Marbles

By THEODORA TONGAS Associated Press Writer

ATHENS, Greece (AP) - Marble figures and panels from the ancient Parthenon were defaced and damaged during a cleaning at the British Museum during the 1930s, Greece's culture minister said Monday, previewing the conclusions of a team of experts. ``There truly was a barbarous cleaning. The marbles were tortured,'' said Elisavet Papazoi, who presented a synopsis of a 100-page Greek report on the condition of the artifacts widely known as the Elgin Marbles. The report, scheduled to be presented Tuesday at a symposium in London, could boost Greek efforts to pressure Britain to return the pieces: 17 figures and part of a 160-yard frieze that decorated the 2,500-year-old Acropolis monument.

Britain has denied Greek charges that the marbles were improperly cleaned. ``We have not yet seen a copy of the report by the Greek team, but look forward to hearing their views and those of other distinguished archeologists and conservators at the conference tomorrow,'' Frances Dunkels, a spokeswoman for the British Museum, said Monday. The marbles were taken by Lord Elgin, the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, in the early 19th century. Britain maintains that Elgin acquired the sculptures legally when Greece was ruled by the Ottomans. Papazoi said that during cleaning in the 1930s, many of the marble surfaces were smoothed out and stripped of original details such as chiseled grooves that characterize the architectural work of the Parthenon. Papazoi stressed that the symposium is ``clearly a scientific meeting'' and not a deliberation on the marbles' repatriation.

SNIP

[XOKCowboy]

21. The fact that they refer to them as the "Elgin Marbles" in honor of the guy that stole them..

is disgusting to me. I went to Windsor Castle before I went to the BM and was amazed at the stuff presented to the king/queen in honor of their conquering a foreign land. I know that they have a rich history but it's a history of conquest and subjugation. I wouldn't be so proud of their conquests if I was them. Not in today's world.

[Confusious]

25. Yes, lets judge the past by todays standards

Most of the people they conquered were killing each other on a larger scale. I wouldn't even say england conquered. They kind of just tripped into the empire.

India, for example, the only thing holding it together is ENGLISH! Otherwise they would be a bunch of squabbling tribes.

[JackRiddler]

30. Astonishingly ignorant, untrue comments.

How many books on any form of factually based history have you read in your life? (The Fountainhead and the Bible don't count.)

[CTyankee]

35. England "just kind of tripped into the empire." Boy, that's a whopper if ever I heard one!

I'm gonna have to remember that one...:rofl: :rofl:

[XOKCowboy]

43. Sounds just like rationalization for "helping" the American Indian

Yep they were just a bunch of squabbling, warring tribes of primitives. We should be glad that those wonderful colonists came and helped us out.

[madeline_con]

19. Then a gracious thank you should be given when the stolen property is returned.n/t

[Heidi]

32. Are you kidding? Can I take your car under the assumption that I'll maintain it better than you

_might_?

[DemoTex]

7. You nailed it CTyankee: PLUNDER.

PLUNDER was the word that ran through my mind on my one visit to the British Museum.

[CTyankee]

10. I simply don't get it. Do you? How can a modern state in the 21st century justify this?

Bad enough for Yale, a private university, but a democratic, modern nation like the UK? This is crazy. It is such a holdover from evil colonialism. Such treasure belongs to the PEOPLE of Greece, it is their heritage. I'm appalled.

[imdjh]

41. London Bridge has become Arizona's second-biggest tourist attraction, after the Grand Canyon. nt

[RandomThoughts]

9. I would rather go to a Greek Museum and read about old works of art

Then visit a museum with plundered art. For some reason I think the art of the world belongs to all people, and in that its location should match its setting.

I think large parts of myths can be learned from, but of coarse there are parts I disagree with, specifically the idea of the existence of multiple Gods.

But to stand in a place built by thinkers and artist of thousands of years ago, and see the arts and thoughts on display through art would be so special in the place it was originally made.

My brother took a cruise to Greece once, he got to visit all those places, he said he really enjoyed it.

[CTyankee]

16. There is something thrilling about seeing art works in situ where they were first displayed.

It knocks me out when I see these objects where they were originally placed, which is not always the case of course. But even when they are in a museum I find it off putting if they are not there legitimately. I have a deep reverence for the arts but I also revere their place in history.

[XOKCowboy]

20. I've also seen David and the Uffizi Gallery in Florence...

It wouldn't have been the same to see them in some museum in America. It would be a travesty. When I think of the Acropolis and the Parthenon in Greece I can only think that I'd like to see them in their original location. In Britain they're just trinkets and curiosities.

[Confusious]

28. No,

I think you flipping an American view with the English view. If you took the Average American and asked him what they were, they would have no idea. I'm sure the average Brit could tell you what they are.

As far as being safe in Greece, all the marble there is rotting away because of pollution.

[imdjh]

23. The Parthenon was being used as a fort, and had been before, as well as a church, etc...

We get all gooey about really old stuff now, because we have the luxury to do that. One of the reasons they find thousand year old stuff under 500 year old stuff is because times were different back then. If you don't believe this, then visit the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and the Christian church underneath it and the Jewish temple underneath that. How rude.

[realisticphish]

13. Here's my point of view

which may offend some people, but certainly isn't intended to.

If a given artifact can be safely preserved and viewable by the public/researchers, than there should be no hesitation whatsoever about returning it to the nation of origin.

If it CAN'T be... we get into a debate. If nation A is unable to properly house an artifact, then I don't see a problem with a nation such as Britain, the U.S., Germany, etc, holding onto it until it can be safely housed. No point in returning something which will degrade to nothing in a few years.

I understand that there is often a deep spiritual/cultural significance to an object, but as long as the holding facility enters into a specific agreement with the country of origin about what constitutes proper storage, I don't see a problem in waiting until the country can afford to house it properly (or is stable enough to house it properly).

However, this case is pretty cut and dry. Greece (and Egypt) both have excellent museum facilities, and there should be no debate on these items being returned immediately

[winyanstaz]

27. Well I agree.......

I myself am waiting for New Brunswick to be given back to the Mc'kmaq people..and I want all my ancestors quill work back too. :P

[realisticphish]

29. And I'm waiting

on Russia to give the Magyar our historic homeland back...


not that I WANT it, Siberia sucks :D

[imdjh]

42. In some cases the relocation of the object it part of its history, is it not?

If we find a Roman artifact in Scotland, is it the emotional property of the Italian people or is it the historical property of the Picti (Celts)?

[realisticphish]

45. interesting point

I would venture to say that wherever it is found in situ is the rough owners... though that's pretty complicated. Perhaps a joint ownership?

[Confusious]

26. You know

I also think I'm a little insulted by the word "plunder". England didn't do a lot of "plundering". They got most of the stuff through trade and gifts to the monarch from heads of state that were a hell of a lot worse then they.

England was one of the first countries to outlaw slavery, England was one of the freest countries when everyone else thought a Despot was the way to go. AND I STILL THINK THEY HAVE A BETTER FORM OF GOVERNMENT THEN WE DO.

I've got more choices in breakfast cereal then political parties in this country.

[JackRiddler]

31. Than.

[CTyankee]

36. You must really try harder to acquire debating skills.

Britain's current form of government, the fact that it outlawed slavery before other countries, and whatever various British monarchs did or didn't do in trade has nothing to do with this discussion. Going off in tangents doesn't help your argument, but then I don't think much would...

[cali]

33. Yes, the so-called Elgin Marbles should be returned to Greece

but let's impose contemporary standards on those who lived 200 years ago- at least not in this case.

[JackRiddler]

44. "Contemporary standards" - what utter bullshit.

You mean, like when the army of liberation secures the Oil Ministry and the Interior Ministry, but has a unit drive up to the National Museum, shoot the guards dead, and then watch for a couple of days as crowds plunder the irreplaceable 3000-year-old artifacts? And then a market arises in said artifacts, naturally denominated in the currency of the aggressor and conqueror?

Yeah, pretty high, those "contemporary standards."

Thou shalt not steal was a contemporary standard in any era.