Talk me down, I think we are fucked.

[AllentownJake]

Debt to GDP Ratio for consumers is 97% of GDP

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/02/household_debt_vs_gdp.html

US Deficit is 11 trillion dollars GDP is 13.84 trillion

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Trade Deficit 711 billion. It fell last year but that doesn't mean we now have a trade surplus

http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/indicators_intlpict_20080215/

Income Disparity

Top 300,000 have more than the bottom 150,000,000

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/worldbusiness/29iht-income.4.5075504.html

Economic Breakdown of US Industry

Only 28% of our GDP is actually derived from making something. The rest is all derived from services.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States#Sectors

State Budget Deficits. Only 4 states are not running a large deficit in 2009.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=711

I also want to add our entire economy is run on a fossil fuel that we have to import from other countries in order to function. We have no public transportation system and the cost of replacing the vehicles we have to fuel efficient vehicles is non-existent.

This is not a President Barack Obama bashing thread. This is what he inherited the day he took office. I don't believe this economy is sustainable. I fear we are already a third world nation.

[Cant trust em]

1. It's not sustainable. Obama didn't just inherit a bad economy,

he inherited an awful consumer culture.

[krispos42]

115. He also inherited the system that caused it

And the restoration of a good system won't happen, cuz the rich fucks won't give up their tax cuts and nifty financial transactions for the good of the system and the country, and the people in general are being bombarded with "socialism" propoganda.

[Cant trust em]

147. I think that the system is part of the problem

and another is the culture of buy, buy, buy that this country is stuck in. People got caught in a trap of buying things that were too expensive with credit. In regards to "the system", I think this might be a chicken vs. egg scenario.

[Taverner]

2. The only one that's really new is the last one

And that alone is reason to panic

[MercutioATC]

12. Panic is never constructive. Denial usually isn't, either.

As in everything, the best course of action is to stay informed and stay prepared.

[AllentownJake]

13. I wish Obama would fire Geithner and Summers

Those are the type of people who got us into this mess.

[MercutioATC]

14. Agreed. Any fix will be painful...and won't happen quickly.

I don't think people are ready to deal with that, so I expect the crash at the end of the unraveling to be especially bad.

[AllentownJake]

33. I think when California goes bankrupt will be the start

With 20-30 other states to follow overnight.

[MercutioATC]

38. Maybe, but nobody will notice until the almighty Dow tanks again.

...because we all know that the Dow is the only reliable indicator of the health of our economy.

[AllentownJake]

39. The Geniuses on Wall Street that developed the 401(K)

Don't know if they realized they could make everyone corporate cheerleaders overnight or not.

[MercutioATC]

40. I know we probably disagree on 401ks, but I agree with your assessment of Wall Street.

And yes, 401ks did make people feel that they had an interest in supporting corporations...even to the point of their own demise.

[AllentownJake]

43. Actually I think 401(k)s may save some of us

http://www.usagold.com/germannightmare.html

I believe we are about to become the Weimar Republic.

[MercutioATC]

45. I don't believe we'll go THAT far, but people will not be able to maintain their current lifestyles

...and I mean that in a philosophical way. Their entire thought process is going to have to change.

It will not be pleasant.

[AllentownJake]

70. I didn't believe Americans would be ok with torture

They are.

[DeschutesRiver]

151. Sums it up nicely

I do not see Weimar either. DH's now deceased mom was a German who grew up during that mess - every now and then he'll remember a story she used to tell about it, and joke about how stories like that used to be old news, and now we see those topics deated in current news.

I completely agree that people will be taking a serious permanent reduction in lifestyle and that it will be ugly (mostly because they do not yet believe the reduction will be permanent). Do you have any guesstimates on what percentage of the population that will be? I see signs of cracking and reduction already. Most disturbing are those who've lost home value, lost jobs, lost over half their retirement and lost the use of massive credit card debt saying that it can't get any worse.

When of course it is continuing to worsen - the universe just doesn't care that you may have hit the limit of reduction that you are personally willing to accept.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

90. Agreed

Bring in Reich....hell, bring in Nader! The latter was very persuasive on Thom Hartmann this morning.

[femrap]

136. Obama was probably told

to hire these jerks...

And giving the Federal Reserve regulatory powers is totally against the US Constitution. TPTB are calling the shots.

[marmar]

3. Sorry. Can't talk you down....'cause we are.

:yoiks:

[AllentownJake]

6. I feel like I did when I was 21 looked at Lucent's stock

and told my father it was going to be $3 in 4 years. He told me I was a stupid kid and I didn't know anything. He lost $500,000 (actually about $100,000) because as mid-management he got stock as compensation every year in opposed to cash and he never liquidated his shares.

[SOS]

152. Re: prescience

A wise friend said to me in 1985: "The future of American labor is seven bucks an hour, no benefits. Get used to it."
He was known as a pessimist, yet he was exactly right.

[emilyg]

18. +1

[Jeep789]

4. I think that drastic changes (along the lines of FDR)

are our only hope. Am still hoping Obama will see it too. (Yes, I am clinging to hope despite current realities. It is all I have.)

[bvar22]

19. Too Late.

Obama released his plan for Economic "Reform" yesterday.
"Centrist" Incrementalism at its finest.
A few minor adjustments, but NO big changes.
In some ways, makes things worse by delegating regulatory power to The Fed, a shadowy, private, secret organization/Corporation run by Millionaires/Billionaire Bankers with close ties to Wall Street who are NOT accountable to ANY public oversight or transparency.

"Too Big to Fail" is still the Holy Grail of Big Business, and now totally endorsed by our Administration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x66169

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5875794

http://firedoglake.com/2009/06/17/obamas-financial-overhaul-more-like-a-tune-up/

[CoffeeCat]

84. I sometimes wonder if...

the cabal that is running things, insisted that Obama continue with Geithner and Summers--so they could
continue the heist and continue to screw things up.

I think they all convinced Obama that it was in his best interest to continue on with these seasoned experts
who knew more about our current economic situation, than anyone.

How long before Obama figures out that he's been sold down the river?

[AllentownJake]

86. I'd believe that

If the President was a dumb ass idealist like Jimmy Carter.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/geog.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

His money comes from where these industries are centered.

[CoffeeCat]

96. Well, if that's so...

....then I've been horrendously duped by Obama.

I truly believe that the neocons didn't anticipate nor plan on an Obama win. I think they figured
that they had one of their own on each side (Hillary, McCain) and that they were cool either way.

I don't think they wanted or were prepared for an Obama win. In researching Obama, it was reported that
he spent most of his free time away from the DC cocktail circuit. He worked out or spent time with his
family--he wasn't part of that inner power circle. Obama seemed a lot less steeped in corruption and payola.

I do believe since it became apparent that he would win, Obama has been fully indoctrinated, introduced and
briefed on what the putrid reality is. That "We The People" do not run this country--the corporations,
the moneyed and the powerful do. They told him how they wanted it to go down. I sense that most of his
appointees and cabinet members were per their suggestion.

Two things are possible. Obama is playing along and is on board with what they are doing. Or, Obama
is not on board, but is playing along because he has no choice, but is hoping to change things from the
inside. I've come to the conclusion that both scenarios hold little hope for our future. How much can
he change in four years? They'll kill the next election for him, that's a given. The neocons made
untold progress by getting that initial foothold in the Middle East. They aren't giving that up. They'll
have one of their own in the Presidency in '12 for sure. They'll continue to rip the economy, set up Obama, or
they'll just steal it with their voting machines. Or...if Obama does their bidding well enough--I guess
it's possible they'd keep him on. Who knows.

I think it's not unusual for every politician to have money from banks, big pharma, insurance, etc. Those
interests give money to all politicians. Most toe the line for those companies, but not all.

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach.

[AllentownJake]

101. Here is what I'm kicking myself now with

When he ran his first State Senate Campaign, the person who was in the seat initially had stepped down but than got back in the race.

Than citizen Obama hired a lawyer to challenge her ballot signatures to remove her from the ballot. Ballot signature challenges is the dumbest and most undemocratic fucking election laws in this country. I've been through one with a candidate. The only reason why we won was the idiot Republican didn't realize a democrat had to challenge a democratic ballot. The lawyer that drew up the challenge, challenged my signature on the petition and I was the notarized circulator. You challenge everyone even if you know its valid.

If you need to go back and think about the President's character...I go back to that. It was certainly legal, it most certainly wasn't ethical.

[Whitehall Celeste]

119. Petition signature challenges

Jake, My DEAR, DEAR Friend,

what are you talking about? You were the one who wanted me to pull Diane's petition to challenge it....

[AllentownJake]

129. My Dear Dear Friend

I never should be in charge. I'll openly state that, many times. You've heard who I compare myself to. I just have a little more self control.

[Strong Atheist]

140. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[960]

102. Oh please. Obama is perfect, but there's a grand conspiracy controlling his moves.

There's a reason he won. And if you don't think he is neo-con approved, you haven't been paying attention.

[AllentownJake]

103. The last Democratic Presidential candidate that actually scared them

Died in Los Angeles in 1968.

[SammyWinstonJack]

130. +1

:thumbsup:

[CrispyQ]

153. You should read this article.

Buying Brand Obama
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/05/04

snip...

Brand Obama offers us an image that appears radically individualistic and new. It inoculates us from seeing that the old engines of corporate power and the vast military-industrial complex continue to plunder the country. Corporations, which control our politics, no longer produce products that are essentially different, but brands that are different. Brand Obama does not threaten the core of the corporate state any more than did Brand George W. Bush. The Bush brand collapsed. We became immune to its studied folksiness. We saw through its artifice. This is a common deflation in the world of advertising. So we have been given a new Obama brand with an exciting and faintly erotic appeal. Benetton and Calvin Klein were the precursors to the Obama brand, using ads to associate themselves with risqué art and progressive politics. It gave their products an edge. But the goal, as with all brands, was to make passive consumers mistake a brand with an experience.


===
Although the author takes a few shots at Obama, the article is really more of a commentary on American junk culture. Obama's not going to buck the status quo.

[femrap]

137. I think he

bought into the river.

[tom_paine]

5. Can't talk you down because you are correct. We are and have been a Third World Nation since

at least 12/12/2000. Maybe long before that.

But currently, like Russian and China (but we have more window-dressing) we are an Inverted Totalitarianism.

http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20080515_chalmers_johnson_on_our_managed_democracy/

Sorry. I know you wanted to be talked down with some pollyannas.

But isn't it better to live in truth?

[Bucky]

7. "We've Been Through Some Crappy Times Before", --by the Austin Lounge Lizards

http://www.rhapsody.com/the-austin-lounge-lizards/the-drugs-i-need

Select the last song and absorb the wisdom

[Mike 03]

8. J. J. Gittes: "When you are right, you are right: And you are right." --

Chinatown, screenplay by Robert Towne.

[Deja Q]

9. 3 options:

1. Wallow and spread gloom
2. suicide
3. Work for positive change

Options 1 and 2 don't sound all that "progressive" to me...

[AllentownJake]

11. I don't think people are ready for the news or to do the right thing

I think I'm just going to take a break and enjoy the summer away from politics except for my one friend who is running for a township commissioner's race. Not because I think it will change anything but because she really would like to be a township commissioner and she's my friend. She's also a good progressive. Like to see a good progressive who gets it win.

So that's option 4. There is nothing I can do, and our leaders and our people aren't ready to listen.

[tavalon]

30. I think you have a pretty good idea

Just make sure you keep your ear to track well enough to not be totally smacked if this hits full force this summer (I don't think it will. I think we'll do the Japanese zombie dance for a while) but otherwise, you are right, there is nothing we can do. We did what we could at the voting booth and we should do that again, but other than preparing personally, there is nothing the collective We The People can do right now. The PTB have the reins firmly in hand and are busy driving us off the cliff.

[CoffeeCat]

87. I agree...

There is little we can do now. I'm hoping for more time before the stuff really hits the fan.

We're stockpiling an emergency fund. I'm also stockpiling food and essentials.

At this point, I just need some more time--which will increase our cash reserves and our preparedness.

All I can hope for is that the "Jampanese zombie dance" goes on for a while.

[bvar22]

148. In 2006, my wife and I "Cashed Out",

... bought property in "The Woods" surrounded by National Forest with on property clean water source, and planted a BIG Veggie garden. We also started keeping Chickens and Honey Bees.


We are NOT "Survivalists", and hope a Big Crunch does NOT happen since that would make it harder on everybody, including us, but watching Obama's tepid "Centrist"/Corportist approach to the problems facing Americans does NOT inspire much confidence that he will (or even wants to) "turn things around".

[CoffeeCat]

165. I really admire you...

I love that you "cashed out" and are living in a space with your own water source and
big veggie garden. The chickens and bees are cool too!

I really wish we had the cajones to do something like that.

Right now, we're in the suburbs...in a neighborhood where if you don't have a lawn that looks
like a golf course, you're practically an outcast. :(

Did you build your own home on the property?

[nichomachus]

15. #3 would involve what exactly?

We thought we took a step in that direction last November -- and that turned out to be a bust. "Yes, we can -- but we're not going to."

[AllentownJake]

20. There are 4 options

# 3 isn't viable right now. Honestly, if I've figured this out I'm pretty sure Barack Obama has, however, the American People aren't ready to hear hey, we are fucked, we need to change our behavior.

[OmahaBlueDog]

125. Oops

Wrong place

[tavalon]

32. Ouch

Good one liner. Painful, but true.

Actually, on second thought, not wholly true. Had Obama surrounded himself with people other than the DLC and had Congress gotten the message, it might have turned out differently, but he didn't and they didn't and so, yeah, it's true.

[Whitehall Celeste]

155. Why do Americans expect someone else to fix their problems

If all of you recall, Obama clearly stated over and over again, that he can't fix things alone or overnight and asked every American to stand up and continue being involved and having their voices heard. He made is very clear that HE was not going to be able to do anything alone, yet 6 months into it ppl are screaming and giving up?

Who's REALLY to blame then?

[tavalon]

28. He's not wallowing, he's in shock

His name is Allentown Jake. I think he'll figure out how to deal. But a person has to know before they can deal. Being a concern troll right now isn't very nice. Let the guy get through the shock.

[Whitehall Celeste]

55. I'll pick option #3

At least it is progressive and productive. Throwing your hands in the air and proclaiming all is lost, is a waste of time & energy and 100% certain to accomplish failure. Giving up has NEVER produced success!

I'd rather go down fighting for what I believe in. There is a certain dignity in that.

[TheWatcher]

92. Working For Positive Change is what we ALL should be doing.

But in order to do that, you first have to understand and accept the STRONG Possibility that NEITHER Side is on OUR SIDE.

Only when We The People wake up to that, will we be able to Work For Positive Change.

Until then we are just going to keep falling for the same "Football Team" mentality that exists in the current False Paradigm so many of us are trapped in.

[Warpy]

10. Our economy hasn't been sustainable for years

which is why it's been run solely on debt for so long.

I can't talk you down because you're exactly where you need to be in facing the enormity of this thing. Remember, the earlier you recognize it, the earlier you can take action to cope with it.

What will be important in the next few years? Get out of debt if you can. Maintain a diverse skill set to increase your employability while enabling you to survive in a world where you'll have to make or repair your own stuff. Maintain a social support network and learn how to barter goods and services.

And may we all have good luck getting through it.

[regnaD kciN]

16. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

:sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

37. Everything is fine. We're in good hands.

:sarcasm:

[hiphopnation]

123. methinks reality is somewhere in between posts 16 & 37 n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

131. Reality sucks.

x(

[MercutioATC]

142. Exactly. Panic is never productive.

Denial isn't either.

[TheWatcher]

107. I Believe, I support, I'm Confident, Chess, Unicorn, Pony, Fed Unlimited Power, Recession Over by

The End Of the Year, The Banks Are Profitable, Words, Not Actions, Will Turn The Economy Around, Debbie Downer, Sexy Beach Photos, Puppy, Propaganda Is Fact, Green Shoots, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

:crazy:

[dgibby]

17. That loud sound you hear is the Empire crashing. n/t

[xchrom]

21. i think this is a ball we should all be watching very closely.nt

[undeterred]

22. Can you make some more room on the ledge?

I am in no mood to talk you down.

[Sebastian Doyle]

23. We need a new economic team in charge NOW

Including NOBODY with any ties to Wall Street, the Federal Reserve, or the god damned treasonous DLC. :grr:

[bvar22]

24. Can't talk you down.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x66169

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x457290

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5875794

Its time for America's Working Class to Learn to Sing the Blues,
because thats ALL the Vampire Class (Democrats & Republicans) is going to allow us to have.
They're taking everything else.

Their 30 year plan has worked perfectly.

[AllentownJake]

29. Yep we are fucked

The President is either being duped or he's complicit.

[cliffordu]

25. Proper fucked.

[taught_me_patience]

26. Not fucked

but not in a good situation:

Engines of growth throughout the decades:

1950's: Industrial
1960's: Industrial
1970's: Women entering workforce (demographic)
1980's: Demographic & Declining interest rates
1990's: Tech
2000's: Finance (a joke it turned out to be)
2010's: Green <-------------AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA laughing my ass off on this one.

The demographics are terrible for future growth right now.

[kenny blankenship]

27. And another thing: at this point in our decline, if we didn't have our war economy

we wouldn't have no economy at all.

[AllentownJake]

31. That is true

That half trillion we are spending on Defense every year.

[TheWatcher]

78. The only thing they can give us is the ILLUSION of an economy.

We no longer have a functioning system.

Most of us just haven't woken up to it yet.

And the looting, stealing, and robbing continues, unabated.

[swilton]

34. Haven't you noticed

the potholes on our streets, why our public transportation systems (i.e., trains, especially those going to the southeastern US) are like Third World countries, how services are being cut or turned over to private corporations?

I know Obama inherited this when he took office. But he also inherited a mandate to change the direction that things were going in = foreign policy based upon military interventions which are extremely costly. He has chosen not to change the direction of our foreign policies and he also has chosen to perpetuate our economic decline by propping up Wall Street rather than Main Street. :yoiks:

[AllentownJake]

36. I'm beginning to believe he is a fraud.

Shame, I gave a year of my life to him.

McCain would have been worse. :shrug: He would have probably invaded Iran to liberate them and protect the protesters.

[Whitehall Celeste]

53. I can't believe you said that..

Jake,
I can't believe you said "Shame, I gave a year of my life to him."

[AllentownJake]

56. Celeste,

Here is the deal.

I'm not ashamed I worked with and met the people on this campaign. That was a great time and I would not trade it for anything in the world. I am kind of pissed I gave him money at this point.

However, I'm looking at the record the past 5 months. Its freaking abysmal except he actually talks to Foreign Leaders instead of waving a Saber at them.

1) No action on gay rights. As a matter in fact he's done everything he could to slap that community in the face since taking office.
2) Minimal action on the banking industry that caused this crisis in the first place. I haven't figured out whether this is due to him not wanting to or due to the fact he knows he can't touch them because so many of our fine democratic Senators have been bought and sold.
3) Healthcare reform is going to go down in flames. Not only is it going to go down in flames I think the compromise system that comes out of the Senate and House is going to be worse than anything else.
4) Wars. We are taking Iraq and moving it into Afghanistan. We cannot afford either war as a nation right now.

I voted for a man who would do the right thing not the politically popular thing to do. I fear I have another Bill Clinton. Yes, we did some great things under Bill Clinton but alot of the economic issues we are facing have their roots in the Clinton Presidency.

NAFTA, The total gutting of Wall Street Deregulation, Allowing our Trade Deficit to grow. All under Bill's watch. We had a recession in 2001 because of it and W,Cheney, and Karl's reaction was to get the American people to take more debt on to consume things after 9-11

I do not see any fundamental reform that is needed to continue this country being a great nation. What I do see is trying to prop up a failed system and a house of cards that is going to have to collapse at some point.

The fact is in this country we have artificially raised our standard of living by financing it through debt and social services. We have appeased the working poor through social programs that have enabled the corporations to keep wages artificially low and for the people at the top to take unprecedented benefit and not pay taxes back into the system to pay for the social programs.

[tom_paine]

85. THAT was well said. And it is looking more and more like Bill Clinton was merely

the Good Cop of Bushonomics.

And now it looks like that's what Obama is, as well, whether he is complicit, or merely a vast majority of his advisors are complicit, or none of them are (now how likely is THAT - not very).

[AllentownJake]

91. President Obama is not Ronald Reagan

The man is pretty brilliant.

[tom_paine]

133. Agreed. But this thing is too big for any one man to comprehend fully.

Think about it. FDR ran the entire edifice of the nation AND WWII with a staff which I believe was smaller than the Department of Energy is today. Something like that.

The other option, one that I personally resist/deny, maybe out of the same naivete as I sometimes accuse others, is that he is very much a willing participant of the Zbig Bresinski "Good Cop Team" of the Bilderbergers/CFR (who would have guessed that nutty shit would have turned out to be true?) that are defanging the American Imperial Subject Populace's growing rage after being subjected not just to "Bushie Bad Cop" for 8 long years, but the penultimate endgame of "Bushie Bad Cop" when the obviousness of the theft and fraud and malfeasance was barely concealable anymore, and then only by the Greatest, Most Advanced and Powerful Propaganda Machine of all time, the Corporate Toady M$M.

And thanks to the Internet, fewer people fooled than ever, even though the majority of fooled still huge.

It was time for Good Cop, otherwise if McPalin had stolen the election, there was a CHANCE that WE would finally have been out in the streets like the Iranians.

But I resist that idea. I deny it. I WANT to believe that Obama is more than just another Bill "Good Cop for Bushonomics" Clinton. Maybe he is. Maybe what some people are saying on this thread are true, I just don't see it.

What I see is a nation that is an Inverted Totalitarianism, as far from being influenced by it's Subject Populace as Russia or China. Except like the Roman Republic which later became an Empire, window-dressing is required because of the Central Founding Myths of both Rome and the USA, which is "we shall never again bow before a King".

NOTE: To understand what I mean by Inverted Totalitarianism being our modern form of governemnt which we partially share with Russia and China, please read this and I would be interested in reading your thoughts after you do so: http://www.truthdig.com/arts_culture/item/20080515_chalmers_johnson_on_our_managed_democracy/

So window-dressing is required to ensure that the Plebs and Proles don't wake to the one thing which could take the blinders from our eyes. And the window-dressing, thanks to decades of advnacement in pyschology, marketing, PR, and advertising, is more powerful tahn anything Hitler or Caesar could have dreamed of. The Bushies have their own Naziganda Machine, and like all propaganda, it works and works and keeps working.

Anyway, I resist the idea that Obama is "in on it". Of course, if he was, his actions would be indistingusihable from what they are now, I believe. Just enough to confuse people and make them hesitate, yet nothing which threatens the Global Aristocratic Elite or their plans to make sure they and theirs survive and continue to rule through the upcoming horrors and massive population contraction.

Just enough to keep the window-dressing going, and keep us Plebs and Proles docile, while our time to resist before the real economic and social horrors begin grows ever shorter.

I don't know if all of that's true, that's the problem with living in a totalitarian state like America, even a kinder and gentler one, like America.

But I do agree that Obama, unlike Raygun, is brilliant.

But so was Clinton.

[Whitehall Celeste]

121. Jake

Sometimes you have to put someone (or something) on life support in order to then take the long term steps to heal them.

He is 6 months into his term for pete's sake. In order to keep our country from complete collapse, he has put it on life support. Would you have preferred it totally collapsed?

As you and I have said many times, it took years for us to get to where we are today and it's not going to be a quick fix to get us out. Yet, 6 months into it, you have (like many Americans) unrealistic progress expectations and a need for instant gratification.

I will again go back to the medical analogy: You must FIRST stablize a critical patient to try to keep them from dying, before you can start the "treatment" of the condition.

Jake, I love you to tears, you are honestly one of my very best friends, but all I am hearing is critizism, gloom & doom.

What do you suggest as an alternative at THIS point?

xoxox
Celeste

[AllentownJake]

161. Let me put it this way

I'm an accountant. I've been educated to recognize bad financial statements.

The United States right now would get a disclaimer saying that I'm concerned that it will not be able to pay its debts.

What we do about it, not sure...yet.

[Subdivisions]

112. God, I can't believe I'm about to say this, buuuuut....

I think I have to agree with you. I hate it too because had he stuck to his promises and had he used his mandate and the power of the office, he may have been able to lessen the pain. As it is now with the banksters (and soon the Fed in charge of basically the entire financial system) draining every dollar and every job out of the economy, we are well and truly fucked. I've been following this crisis since the earliest rumblings that a crisis was nigh. I've begun seeing honest assessments giving the United States 3-4 months before it defaults on it's debt. The rest of the world is abandoning us. Bernanke can't save us printing more money. It's too late to fix it.

I think we'll find the reasons for the epic collapse of civilization that lies ahead at the feet of the greediest and richest elite draining the system of all it's wealth combined with energy and resource depletion. The elitists are seeking to own the food, the water, the money, the property, the resources, and the remaining oil - oil that is past the physical peak production limit and which is now in irreversible decline. And now that oil production is in irreversible decline, and in the absense of any suitable replacement, economic growth of our current world society is no longer possible. All that is left is a contraction all the way back to self-sustainability.

[femrap]

139. I knew something like this would

happen. It is always your own party who hurts you the most. The sense of betrayal is so infuriating.

I told young people to not put all their hopes on Obama...he'll break your heart. Having studied Political Science and Marketing for so many years, I could see this coming.

Please just get prepared for bad times. Get some extra food, necessities, etc. Develop a community around you that you can trust. Start a garden. Get a bike. It's going to be tough....but I do believe that the Greed will be squashed and we will be more self-reliant as citizens.

Take care.

My epiphany came after 2006 Election and NO Impeachment...plus Alito and Roberts. I knew they were complicit. Obama's bipartisanship was part of being complicit. But we had no choice but to vote for him.

I really wish we had a third Progressive Party...a Truth Party.

edit for typo

[dionysus]

150. uh huh. super fraudy.

christ on a cracker.....

[OhioChick]

35. You're right......we are fucked. n/t

[JustJeking]

44. Oh fuck, we are, aren't we? :( n/t

[kjackson227]

41. I don't think we are if everyone will do their part and make their...

voices heard.

[SammyWinstonJack]

134. Screaming into the wind at this point. They don't hear us. They don't want to hear us.

[ellisonz]

42. I have a solution...

The state formalism, which the bureaucracy is, is the state as formalism, and Hegel has described it precisely as such a formalism. Because this state formalism constitutes itself as a real power and becomes itself its own material content, it is evident that the bureaucracy is a tissue of practical illusion, or the illusion of the state. The bureaucratic mind is through and through a Jesuitical, theological mind. The bureaucrats are the Jesuits and theologians of the state. The bureaucracy is la république prêtre.

-Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, 1843

[lfairban]

105. Thanks.

I knew there was a reason I never read Marx.

[AllentownJake]

106. Marx leads to this as much as Smith

There is no utopia.

All republics eventually fall into Bread and Circuses.

[ellisonz]

146. I don't know if I'd be proud...

...of not having read one of the most influential thinkers in history.

[quiller4]

46. You need some talking down

First your stat about state budgets is not accurate. It includes in the list all states that closed their budget gaps through legislative action this past spring. While all but 4 states were facing deficits in Jan 2009, now fewer than 5 are. That does not mean they didn't make drastic cuts in services to close the gap; many did.

Most world nations have industrial breakdowns much like ours. Less than 20% of Great Britain's GDP comes from manufacturing. For France the figure I last saw was 32% and Germany is at 30%.

[AllentownJake]

47. Those countries aren't in any better shape than we are right now

Just Saying :shrug:

I think they may have less consumer debt.

[ProSense]

48. So does that mean

the world is coming to an end?

[AllentownJake]

50. Define world coming to an end.

Does it mean that Western Society is about to have a major crisis that forces it to change, drastically. Probably.

Does it mean the end of Human life on this planet...it could happen, these economic crisis are sometimes followed by crazy people getting in power. Depends on which countries the crazy person gets into power.

If it is ours. We are really fucked. We got 3 years to worry about that.

[dgibby]

58. If the goal is Globalization and Free Trade (and it is),

then the playing field must be leveled. Since it is impossible to prop up the poorest countries, then it becomes necessary to drag down more affluent countries in order to level that playing field. Once that has happened, everyone will be working for 3rd world wages in 3rd world conditions. The PTB are the only one's that will benefit from this. The rest of us are fucked.

My only consolation is that global warming is going to get those bastards,too, and their money won't save them.

[Whitehall Celeste]

54. quiller4 is the voice of reason

Thanks so much for helping to talk him and everyone else who seems to think there is no hope down.

GREAT data too :)

[TheWatcher]

71. You need some WAKING UP

The Banks have been INSOLVENT for months. Voodoo Profits from Mark-To-Make-Believe Accounting don't mean JACK SHIT.

And I suppose the proposal to make the Fed a "Super Regulator" sits well with you too. Yes, that's PERFECT. Put the Criminals in CHARGE of the Criminals. A Mafioso's WET DREAM. No Regulation, NO Oversight, and the FULL LEGALITY to loot, rob, and steal with impunity. That sounds like a GREAT Plan.

Oh but it's all conspiracy.

Banks Are Profitable, GM isn't Bankrupt, The CDO and Derivatives Markets are Solid, Mark-To-Make- Believe Accounting will save us ALL, More Bailouts and "Thanking God They Passed!!!!!!!!!111111111" will fix EVERYTHING, The Unfunded Debt Liability Of The United States is not $66 Trillion Dollars, Iceland didn't really crumble, The Japanese Export Market did not collapse, Eastern Europe is FINE, Monetizing the Debt and Devaluing the Currency is Good, and "Hopes", "Assurances", "Optimism", "Upbeat Rhetoric", and whatever Diarrhea coming from geithner's mouth will make The Recession end, Jobs will come back, and Puppies and Rainbows will fall from the sky with reckless abandon. Oh and Commercial Real Estate is fine too.

THERE. IS. NOTHING. THAT. HAS. FUNDAMENTALLY. CHANGED. IN. THE. REAL. ECONOMY.

The time has come for the people to wake up to the fact there IS NOT GOING TO BE A RECOVERY within SIX MONTHS of what possibly is the biggest Global Unwinding in HISTORY.

The Recession will not end this month.

Nor next month.

Nor by the end of the year.

Nor by the end of NEXT YEAR.

They can artificially inflate the Markets and propagandize the Public ALL THEY WANT.

It will NOT CHANGE the Fundamental Reality of the Circumstances we currently find ourselves in, nor will it neutralize the CONSEQUENCES that will RESULT from those Circumstances.

What this country needs is a FUNCTIONING ECONOMIC FINANCIAL SYSTEM that is based on sound, fundamental principle and that functions for the good and interests of WE THE PEOPLE, not one based on PONZI MECHANICS that is designed to only benefit the UPPER CRUST of Corporate Interest
and Elite Oligarchy.

[AllentownJake]

73. 30 years ago

We became a Ponzi Scheme. George H.W. Bush was right. He lost the GOP Primary. He was alarmed at the time, than he realized he could profit from it, be a President, and enrich all his children past the wildest dreams of Prescott.

Than he became President. Had some conscious about the entire deficit thing (he was always wishy/washy probably the WW2 patriot and Nixon's GOP chair and CIA director battling it out). His son, having had no past in national service had no qualms with it, plus his Dad lost to that damn peasant hippy who sold out from Arkansas.

[TheWatcher]

75. It was MUCH longer than 30 Years ago Jake.

One would need to go back to 1913.

Wilson NEVER forgave himself for what transpired back then. he felt himself a traitor to his country.

He will never know how RIGHT and WELL PLACED his sorrows were.

[AllentownJake]

77. 30 years ago

Is when turning us into a 3rd world country, didn't become a problem for them anymore.

In 1913 they had to worry about escaping if shit ever really hit the fan. Modern Technology solved that problem for them.

[TheWatcher]

79. True, Quite True.

But the Genesis of what was to become began with The Federal Reserve Act.

They have been fucking us ever since. :(

The question is how long they can continue to HIDE their intentions for Third World Status from us.

They have accomplished MUCH of their goals already from what I can see.

[AllentownJake]

81. They don't have to hide it anymore

Are you kidding, in the next two years things are going to get so bad, that we are going to welcome unprecedented takeover and reductions of our freedoms by the state not just that we will be demanding it.

Our country will more resemble China and Iran than it will America by 2020.

[TheWatcher]

83. It's like Natalie Portman Said in the horrible Revenge Of The Sith

"So this is how Democracy Dies.....With thunderous Applause."

[AllentownJake]

89. Democracy died when Al Gore lost

and not one Democrat wanted to challenge it because it might restrict their careers over it might destroy the country.

Ever since than it has been red team/blue team and which team are you rooting for.

Can you imagine where we would be if Al Gore, actually kept his campaign promise on the lock box...you know the thing Saturday Night live did a skit mocking him for over and over and over again.

People wonder why Al Gore has checked out, he realized this in 2004 when Howard Dean was destroyed...destroyed in favor of John Kerry by the media in Iowa.

[ProSense]

49. This thread needs some serious optimism

Any will do.

[AllentownJake]

51. I hope that is true

I'm skeptical.

People tend to think things go up in a straight line or down in a straight line. They don't.

[tom_paine]

57. You are quite correct to be skeptical, Jake.

n/t

[TheWatcher]

62. That's Propaganda, not Optimism.

But it's not surprising that Propaganda is the only kind of "optimism" that anyone can find, because that's all this "Recovery" is based on.

What they reported today was a smart move though, from a Propaganda perspective.

For weeks they have been feeding you the Bullshit that 600,000+ Job Losses is "positive" because it was slightly less than expected, so that means the Recession ended in 2007, or never really existed at all (Yes, I am exaggerating, but with the Soviet Level of lies they pump out every day, at least THAT seems reasonable).

But now that card has been played too much, so they have SHIFTED the Bullshit to say, "Hey job losses are getting worse, but LOOK OVER HERE AT CONTINUING CLAIMS! FOLLOW THE BULLSHIT TO THE RECOVERY."

It's childlike, it's stupid, and I have had enough.

The TRUTH is they have NOTHING they can show you that points to a FUNDAMENTAL REAL CHANGE in the REAL ECONOMY, not the PONZI WALL STREET BULLSHIT ECONOMY.

We have a Psychopathic Oligarchy running the country that doesn't give one Scintilla of a SHIT about We The People, and a dumbed down, brainwashed, glazed over public that can't be bothered to see what's really going on, and is almost DESPERATE to ignore the OBVIOUS facts that only get more blatant with each passing day.

Our Leaders don't care, we can't be bothered, and Reality doesn't play favorites or to our whims.

The first thing the Public has to do is STOP LISTENING TO THE PROPAGANDA. Learn how the game is played and how they play YOU.

This foolishness will Stop when enough of us stand up and say "ENOUGH. No more. OR ELSE."

Oh, but I know, Unicorns, Ponies, Chess, 6 Months, 1 year, 2 years, 1 term, 2 terms, Geithner is God, Give more Power to the Fed, it doesn't exist, conspiracy theorist, blah, blah, blah.

THIS ISN'T ROCKET SCIENCE.

The answers and the Truth are PLAIN AS DAY.

They won't change because we choose to continue ignoring them or allowing our Perceptions of them to be skewed so we can feel good about the False Paradigm of our "My Football Team Is Better" Political Landscape Of Bullshit.

[AllentownJake]

63. What I've been waking up to since January 21st.

I'm there, the system is bullshit. It was once good, however Eisenhower was right. They spent the next 50 years scaring the shit out of the People with fake threats and bullshit marketing.

[TheWatcher]

67. Indeed You Are AJ, Indeed you are.

And I appreciate your Post.

I wish I could talk you down, my friend, I REALLY do.

:hug:

But I can't live in a lie.

And I know you can't, and SHOULDN'T either.

I just wish the Ostriches would wake up to the fact that NEITHER Side is on OUR SIDE.

[AllentownJake]

69. People want to believe a lie

No conspiracies but how many people in this country believe they have angels following them around.

How many people are conned everyday by Fortune Tellers.

How many people want to believe that the Iraq/Vietnam/Afghanistan made them safer.

How many people believe our foreign policy is good for the rest of the world.

How many people believe that Dennis Kucinuch or Ralph Nader were actually running for President.

[TheWatcher]

72. AJ, People Have NO INTEREST in The Truth, Unfortunately.

They are Interested in having their PERCEPTION of The Truth MANAGED so they can live in a False Paradigm and feel good, and not have to think about Reality.

I used to think this country was getting like Rome.

I was WRONG.

We are WORSE than Rome.

And FAR MORE ENTERTAINED.

[AllentownJake]

76. Look at Church attendance

I'm a Christian, in the sense that I believe when you stand up to the powers that be, they will nail you to a cross and hunt down your followers. If your followers manage to survive within 5 generations the powers that be will co-opt your message to fit into their paradigm.

That Constantine Fellow was brilliant. He looked at people willingly going to die for the cross married the Religion with the state and now he had people killing for Jesus of Nazareth. The man was a genius.

They ran into a little problem when people could read the book and not be told what it said, they've recently found a way to get around that by taking over the Evangelical Church and doing Bible Studies to tell people what the book actually means.

[earth mom]

52. The middle class is losing the class war.

The rich elite and Corporate America is running the government and they won't be happy until the politicians they own lock stock and barrel have us all groveling for crumbs.

We are so fucked it ain't funny. :grr:

[lib2DaBone]

65. As always.. the choice we had was the lessor of two evils...

I voted for Obama.. but I didn't want him or Hillary.

I wanted Kucinich/Jessie Ventura.. but the country was not ready for honest government and real change... so we got the 'promise' of change.

Go ahead.. laugh at Kucinich. But you laughed at Ross Perot when he told you to your face.. about that "giant sucking souind" of your jobs leaving the United States. How funny is it now?

[AllentownJake]

68. Problem is Dennis was never really running for President

Dennis was running to bring attention to one or two issues. He knows he doesn't have a chance from the instant he starts out.

The only reason Dennis is even allowed to be around is because he isn't really a threat.

JFK, RFK, MLK jr. All were threats.

[TheWatcher]

74. Did you ever see that old Routine Bill Hicks used to do?

It went something like this:

He was talking about what REALLY Happens when a President gets Elected in this country.

"no matter what promises you make on the campaign trail - blah, blah, blah - when you win, you go into this smoky room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist scumfucks that got you in there, and this little screen comes down... and it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll.... And then the screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, 'Any questions?'

"Just what my agenda is."

That about sums it up for me. :)

[Michigan-Arizona]

93. This may or may not be true

I was doing some research online one night a year or so ago, came across an article that was very much like what you wrote. It said Reagan did not like or want Bush Sr. to be his VP. This room of big shot's told Reagan you'll either have him as the VP or the closet you'll get to the White House will be as a tourist. As I said I don't know how true it was but it sure wouldn't surprise me at all if it were.

[TheWatcher]

109. That Much is VERY True.

Reagan HATED Bush Sr. and did not want him as VP.

I have no proof of what you say is True, but there is MUCH about that era that remains in question, and that is shrouded in mystery.

There is a saying that most of the Country believes we only had ONE Term Of Bush.

When actually we had three.

[Joe the Liberal]

95. Here it is.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRykTpw1RQ

[earth mom]

158. No argument with me about Kucinich. He's just about the only politician in DC with any ethics.

Don't quite get your reply to my post. :shrug:

[ellie]

59. That's nothing

I was at a conference this past week that discussed global warming. The consensus is that we are too far gone to reverse it or stop it. The best we can do is to slow it down. We are really, truly fucked. And people still don't believe that global warming is real.

[donheld]

60. Sorry I can't be of help

I'm right up there with you.

[AllentownJake]

61. The sad thing

A lot of the conservatives I know are thinking the same thing, but we can't drop our social issue objections with each other.

[Prometheus Bound]

64. The only thing holding it together somewhat now is the inability to admit it is really over.

"It'll come back. It's gotta come back. It always comes back."

It ain't comin back.

[hiphopnation]

66. OK, we're totally fucked.

What next?

[AllentownJake]

88. Ride it out

Nothing else you can do, the people don't want to wake up, the Politicians are all bought and paid for.

[hiphopnation]

120. i'm sorry, but

i won't just be "riding it out". I'm continuing to work for positive change and to doing what I can do to change my corner of the world. A little commiserating is OK sometimes but it's also important for someone to snap you out of it. SNAP OUT OF IT! The odds are daunting - has that ever stopped small groups of dedicated humans from accomplishing anything before? Many will say I'm being Pollyanna-ish - fine, fine. I say...well, I will leave with the words of Paul Hawken from a commencement speech he recently gave...


“…you have to figure out what it means to be a human being on earth at a time when every living system is declining, and the rate of decline is accelerating. Kind of a mind-boggling situation…the earth needs a new operating system, you are the programmers, and we need it within a few decades.”


“…There is invisible writing on the back of the diploma you will receive,..it says: YOU ARE BRILLIANT, AND THE EARTH IS HIRING. The earth couldn’t afford to send any recruiters or limos to your school. It sent you rain, sunsets, ripe cherries, night blooming jasmine, and that unbelievable cute person you are dating….Forget that this task of planet-saving is not possible in the time required. Don’t be put off by people who know what is not possible. Do what needs to be done, and check to see if it was impossible only after you are done.”


“…When asked if I am pessimistic or optimistic about the future, my answer is always the same: If you look at the science about what is happening on earth and aren’t pessimistic, you don’t understand the data. But if you meet the people who are working to restore this earth and the lives of the poor, and you aren’t optimistic, you haven’t got a pulse. What I see everywhere in the world are ordinary people willing to confront despair, power, and incalculable odds in order to restore some semblance of grace, justice, and beauty to this world.”


“…You join a multitude of caring people No one knows how many groups and organizations are working on the most salient issues of our day…This is the largest movement the world has ever seen.”


“…Rather than control, it seeks connections. Rather than dominance, it strives to disperse concentrations of power….It provides hope, support, and meaning to billions of people in the world. Its clout resides in idea, not in force. It is made up of teachers, children, peasants, businesspeople, rappers, organic farmers, nuns, artists, government workers, fisher folk, engineers, students, incorrigible writers, weeping Muslims, concerned mothers, poets, doctors without borders, grieving Christians, street musicians, the President of the United States of America…and the Creator, the One who loves us all in such a huge way.”


“…Inspiration is not garnered from the litanies of what may befall us; it resides in humanity’s willingness to restore, redress, reform, rebuild, recover, re-imagine, and reconsider.”


“…The living world is not ‘out there’, but in your heart….The most unrealistic person in the world is the cynic, not the dreamer.”

[Whitehall Celeste]

122. Ride it out?

That's the answer? Sit back and let the chips fall where they may? release any voice we have and control of our future and the future of this Country?

C'mon, that's not you Jake....

[AllentownJake]

162. I'm taking a break

However, I'm pretty damn sure we are not going to be able to borrow our way to prosperity this is what got us into this mess to begin with.

[Initech]

80. America The Fucked.

Of course we could do the smart thing and completely rid ourselves of the military-industrial complex that has been squeezing every last cent it can out of us, but we dont have time for rational solutions!

[AllentownJake]

82. They'd create an enemy the minute we think about cutting defense

Hell, for all we know, China, Russia, and America might be getting together to take out N.Korea.

[lonestarnot]

94. Yeah, America will never recover. We're well done.

[steelmania75]

98. Maybe we should split? Red America and Blue America?

[lonestarnot]

99. They can have tornado alley.

:evilgrin:

[steelmania75]

100. And we get the beautiful West Coast beaches. PARTY TIME IN MALIBU!

[lonestarnot]

104. And East Coast history.

[steelmania75]

97. We've been fucked since Bush stole the 2000 Election.

[TheWatcher]

110. Try 1913. If that Doesn't work for you then 1963.

[AllentownJake]

111. Than 1968

When they took out the two most charismatic progressive leaders in a year.

[TheWatcher]

114. Indeed. They were sending a Clear Message.

Rock The Boat, Make A Difference, Die.

Very simple.

[AllentownJake]

116. Like I said

I'm a Christian. I get it.

[Zodiak]

108. Actually I feel that it is possible to pull out of it.

We still do have the resources and power to pull out of this.

However, we lack the political will and the political courage to do what is necessary to save ourselves.

And THAT is why I have to ultimately agree. We are most likely fucked.

It really gets my goat that the French can take to the streets at the first hint of their government's betrayal, but most Americans don't even know what a general strike is much less the will to organize one. We can watch and cheer on Iranians who are pissed about their vote, but we accept wonky election results and supreme court appointments of Presidents without much complaint.

If we have lost America, we lost it because we ceased to be Americans.

[Subdivisions]

118. 'If we have lost America, we lost it because we ceased to be Americans.' +1. n/t

[troubledamerican]

113. $1.4 Quadrillion -- the global derivatives total phantom assets

http://economicedge.blogspot.com/2009/04/global-derivatives-14-quadrillion-up-22.html

Not enough money in the world to pay for it:
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5408&Itemid=&widthstyle=w-thin

[onenote]

117. if you think we've become a 3rd world country, you've never lived in a 3rd world country

I daresay that the majority of people living in third world countries would trade their standard of living for the standard of living of a majority of people in this country in a nanosecond. Does that mean everything is peaches and cream here? Of course not. But end of days claims about the US are an exaggeration and hyperbole. Is there poverty in the US? Damn straight. And if you can point out when there wasn't, it would be most informative.

Do a number of things need to change in order for things to improve? Yes. Can they change? Yes. Can they change overnight? No.

[Whitehall Celeste]

124. 3rd World country

Onenote:

Thank you. I was just wondering how many of the people on here have ever even been to a 3rd world country, much less lived there?

Even as bad as things are right now, our way of life in NO WAY resembles a 3rd world country.

[SteppingRazor]

128. Having recently gone to a small town in central Honduras, I'll second this.

The idea that America bears any similarity to a third-world country is simply unrealistic.

[tom_paine]

138. Oh, for the moment we are the richest 3rd World Country out there.

But our wealth distribution curve is 3rd world. Oyur GINI coefficient is almost equal to that of Zimbabwe. Look it up.

Our politics, minus the window-dressing, is 3rd World (hell, even Iranians have more spine than us!)

Our journalism is very much 3rd World.

Our Judiciary and Law Enforcement become more 3rd World every day, from Seigelman to ACORN, LE now assists the Bushies in much the same way.

Is our standard of living much greater than our Third World bretheren? Of course it is. It takes time to create such a thorough change, particulary when our nation was the wealthiest in human history.

That's a lot to steal, plus the Plebs and Proles must be kept docile during the process. Difficult, considering our Founding Myth of "we shall never bow down before a King".

We are the richest Third World nation out there, and this will likely be so for quite awhile.

Don't be dazzled by the shiny distractions. Our being a Third World nation has less to do, for the moment, with standard of living than it has to do with sociology.

Eventually, it will "trickle down", though.

[onenote]

141. so as you define it, what countries are not "third world"?

[tom_paine]

144. Subjective opinion: but to name a few Norway, Sweden, France, Germany (isn't that ironic)

Maybe Britain, though they seem to have one foot in Bushevism, yet seem to re

I'm sure there are others, not many others, but I'll not waste time on it. It's hard to speculate on such matters so far away, but I know what is going on HERE. Unquestionably, the rise of Bushevism has decereased the number of members in the Free World
as that is what it is designed to do: destroy liberty and concentrated wealth under a Neofeudalist economy.

Nice try, though.

[OmahaBlueDog]

126. Things are bad, but things do change.

In 1993, Bill Clinton inherited an economic catastrophe. High unemployment and big deficits.

By 2001, we were projected to run surplusses for the foreseeable.

By 2009, we were projected to run deficits for the foreseeable.

An 8 year presidency, good or bad, can make a lot of difference.

I consider myself a "Blue Dog" not because I have a lot in common with Ben Nelson, but because I'm a fiscal conservative. I subscribe to the odd notion that government expenditures should balance receipts and that deficits should be the exception, not the norm.

I see five things short term (2-4 years) that need to happen.

1. We need to reduce imports, and the fastest way to do that is dramatically substitute for domestic alternatives for imported oil: wind, biofuels, solar, CNG are all good options. I think nuclear is a good option - most here disagree. Drilling for more oil is not a good option.

2. The wars in Iraq & Afghanistan need to end, and once ended, we need to do our best to get out of the world cop business for a while. We spend about $650 Bil on defense - we need to get that down in the $100-200B range.

3. We need to raise revenues, and any new spending (read: National Health Care) needs to be paid with verifiable revenue -- not imaginary savings. Some of that should be income tax, some should be sin tax, and some should be user fees. Tarrifs should be considered where appropriate.

4. The Social Security retirement age needs to be raised, over the next 10 years, to 76 - and needs to be indexed to average life expectancy thereafter. Again, wildly unpopular, but the math makes it necessary, IMO.

5. We need a National Health Plan that covers everyone. Right now, every other industrialized nation has something, and they pay around 10% of GDP for healthcare. We have a broken system, and pay something in the neighborhood of 15% of GDP. It is a serious drag on our economy.

I genuinely hate to agree with Ronald Reagan on anything, but we probably do need to amend the Constitution to give the President a line item veto and mandate that the budget be balanced. Short term it would be very painful, but long term, even running the budget flat would likely do amazing things for our receipts to debt ratio.

[OmahaBlueDog]

127. Things are bad, but things do change.

In 1993, Bill Clinton inherited an economic catastrophe. High unemployment and big deficits.

By 2001, we were projected to run surplusses for the foreseeable.

By 2009, we were projected to run deficits for the foreseeable.

An 8 year presidency, good or bad, can make a lot of difference.

I consider myself a "Blue Dog" not because I have a lot in common with Ben Nelson, but because I'm a fiscal conservative. I subscribe to the odd notion that government expenditures should balance receipts and that deficits should be the exception, not the norm.

I see five things short term (2-4 years) that need to happen.

1. We need to reduce imports, and the fastest way to do that is dramatically substitute for domestic alternatives for imported oil: wind, biofuels, solar, CNG are all good options. I think nuclear is a good option - most here disagree. Drilling for more oil is not a good option.

2. The wars in Iraq & Afghanistan need to end, and once ended, we need to do our best to get out of the world cop business for a while. We spend about $650 Bil on defense - we need to get that down in the $100-200B range.

3. We need to raise revenues, and any new spending (read: National Health Care) needs to be paid with verifiable revenue -- not imaginary savings. Some of that should be income tax, some should be sin tax, and some should be user fees. Tarrifs should be considered where appropriate.

4. The Social Security retirement age needs to be raised, over the next 10 years, to 76 - and needs to be indexed to average life expectancy thereafter. Again, wildly unpopular, but the math makes it necessary, IMO.

5. We need a National Health Plan that covers everyone. Right now, every other industrialized nation has something, and they pay around 10% of GDP for healthcare. We have a broken system, and pay something in the neighborhood of 15% of GDP. It is a serious drag on our economy.

I genuinely hate to agree with Ronald Reagan on anything, but we probably do need to amend the Constitution to give the President a line item veto and mandate that the budget be balanced. Short term it would be very painful, but long term, even running the budget flat would likely do amazing things for our receipts to debt ratio.

[bvar22]

149. You consider yourself a "Blue Dog" ?

Man, you are not even a mainstream Democrat.
You are waaaaay out there with the Fringe Left Wing Wackos....like me.

*End the WARS and all Military Adventurism

*Reduce Military Spending by over 80%

*Restrict Imports (Protect American Jobs)

*(Single Payer) Universal National HealthCare funded by Tax Increase

*Green Domestic Energy


The Blue Dogs wouldn't even talk to you.
I DO disagree with raising the retirement age.
Simply Raising the Cap will "fix" Social Security.

On Edit:
With the exception of your Social Security fix, you just listed Dennis Kucinich's Presidential Platform.

[OmahaBlueDog]

159. LOL!

Most progressives I meet consider me practically a Republican because of my fiscal beliefs...my Republican friends place me somewhere between Lenin and Mao.

[oedura]

132. We are fucked...

The country will collapse before we see any serious attempts to fix (rebuild) it, and there will be blood in the streets.

[femrap]

135. Let me K and R this....

You have no idea how fucked we are....just wait until the second leg drops with commercial real estate and the derivative mess later this summer.

And the Death of the Dollar! That's the BOHICA.

WASF...

Get Prepared.

[SlowDownFast]

143. F.U.C.K.E.D.

The majority of the country is still too busy watching American Idol and Dancing With the Stars.

Bread and circuses. Mass hypnosis.

The masses haven't participated in their gov't since the 60's - and that was beat down, subdued with entertainment and the prospect of fast and easy wealth/credit (as long as you get "in line", of course).

Pain and suffering seem to be the only thing that get's the attention of the masses, and by then whatever remnant of what the society was is gone. It's Back To The Drawing Board.

Problem is, history shows this type of environment creates an opportunity for a "charismatic" leader to enter the stage - and usually that "charismatic" leader comes blaming some scapegoat for his nation's problems. The people - eager for dramatic change - take the bait. Hook, line, sinker.

Then comes the violence.

[tom_paine]

145. And it's quite obvious the growing numbers of RW Brownshirts are very ready to embrace such monsters

They will very likely get their wish.

Plus a change, plus a la meme chose
(The more things change, the more they stay the same)

[high density]

154. We've come back from the brink before

The debt to GDP graph shows we did it last century... Is this time different? The crazy blind stock market is very frightening to watch over the last few months, but nobody can control what those people are thinking.

I think our core problem is trade and the offshoring of jobs. With so much of our money flowing offshore it is no surprise we've had to run up huge debts to finance ourselves over the last few decades. We need to stop being afraid of a little isolationism. Every dollar that goes offshore is a dollar that won't be spent keeping a job in this country. The countries that yell at the smallest whiff of protectionism are the biggest hypocrites on the planet. Unfortunately it seems Congress would rather sell us out at every turn to the ideas of Tom Friedman and Alan Greenspan instead of having a prosperous country again.

[LeftHander]

156. BOGU....might as well enjoy it.....nt

[SlipperySlope]

157. I stay up late every night worrying about how fucked we are...

Everyone who said the system was unsustainable was right. We just ran out of "sustain" and straight into "un".

[KillCapitalism]

160. Hyperunemployment will be what kills us.

No jobs = no consumer spending. Consumer spending makes up about 70% of the economy, so that will be a major blow.

Also, no jobs = greatly reduced tax revenue for federal, local, and state governments. Services will have to be cut, employees let go, and infrastructure will crumble.

Once unemployment passes 50%, that's when we will be doomed.

In the worst case scenario, jobs will come back, but not what we're used to. We will probably end up as a feudal/agrarian society somewhat like most of Europe was in the middle ages. There will be jobs again, but your job will be toiling a piece of land for your "lord."

[keepCAblue]

163. There was a group who predicted Obama will face an economic catastrophe...

It was in the news just after Obama took office -- some study group based at a university in TX released a report which predicted Obama would face an economic disaster approximately 8 or 10 months into his first term. Tried googling but can't find it. At the time I thought it to be a rethuglican think tank trying to whip up fear and hysteria over Obama's election, but now, in view of the OP, it'd be interesting to revisit that report. Does anyone have a link to it?

[arcadian]

164. Is it this article? "The Economic Crisis and Obama's Response"

by Jamie Galbraith

http://utip.gov.utexas.edu/Flyers/JGatClarkUniversityApril2009.pdf