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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 08:27 PM
Original message
More "change?" Obama admin fights ruling that would regulate mountaintop removal for coal mining
Edited on Wed Jun-10-09 08:31 PM by villager
You read that right -- our "new" administration is once again on the wrong side of an environmental issue:

Lawyers for the Obama administration this morning filed a notice that they plan to appeal the latest federal court ruling that — if not overturned — would require more stringent regulation of mountaintop removal coal mining.

Justice Department lawyers filed this notice with the U.S. District Court here in Charleston, indicating they plan to challenge the ruling on behalf of the federal Army Corps of Engineers.

The ruling in question was made in March by U.S. District Judge Joseph R. Goodwin, and blocked the Corps from approving new coal industry valley fills through a streamlined Clean Water Act approval process. Coal industry lawyers have also indicated that they will appeal Goodwin’s ruling.

Interestingly, there’s an item today on the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s Web site that indicates EPA administrator Lisa Jackson has a meeting late today (between 5 p.m. and 6 p.m.) with Congressman Nick J. Rahall, D-W.Va.

http://blogs.wvgazette.com/coaltattoo/2009/06/10/obama-fights-ruling-to-block-streamlined-mine-permits/
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Change" suddenly has a whole different connotation, doesn't it?
That's the problem with getting caught up in enthusiasm for ambiguous slogans, instead of reading the fine print. :(
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. "Chump change" is the term you are looking for. :( nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. I believe you're correct. nt
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. Change... For a Dollar? [nt]
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foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Rahall will be of no help. He's King Coal's servant.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. Cheerleaders to explain why we're all wrong in 3 - 2 - 1 n/t
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. They are running a little slow today, my guess is the first will be the B** "face palm" maneuver
Edited on Wed Jun-10-09 09:16 PM by Dragonfli
The very intellectual rebuttal to all critical observations.
So brilliant that seldom is there an intellect capable of answering it's axiomatic truthiness.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. Its only been
*Its only been two three four five months.

*Obama is playing chess

*Your ratio of positive Obama posts vs your number of negative Obama posts proves that you are a hater, and should be ignored by those of us who live in the Real World.

*Why are you so surprised?
You knew he was a corporatist when you voted for him, so just STFU.

*Where were you when Bush was president?

*So vote for McCain.

*If the Democrats lose in 2010, it will be YOUR fault.

*Left Wing Fringe Hoo Hoo Naderite!
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
44. You Forgot "Giving them enough Rope..."
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. A slight correction: he's playing 11-DIMENSIONAL chess.
;)
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Maybe not. Some things are really indefensible.
Of course that doesn't stop them with torture and war escalation, so you could be right.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Of course I was right.
Just needed a kick, as it sank in the wake of everything else.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Sadly true. Sure didn't take long! nt
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. -1
Instigating flames.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. -1
Predicting the inevitable.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. -2
Being consistently a trouble-maker trying to provoke a flame-fest.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Gasp!
<clutching pearls>

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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. (-1)+(-2)=(-3) (-3)-(-1)=(-2) - The Moran is clearly twice as negative as you are, so he won! n/t
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. LOL!
I'm on a short leash, so I'll just say thanks.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. +1
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. +2
:)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. A trouble maker? You?
For what? Asking for equal rights, perhaps?

If he thinks YOU'RE a troublemaker, what does that make me?

:rofl:
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Well, really -
I've never been so insulted . . . Guffaw!

Especially when I think about REAL troublemakers!

But I did get a little naughty in another post where some of the comments made me use language that a genteel flower like me should not use.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. It's shocked I am.
Shocked, I tell you.

:wow:
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Awful. nt
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Kick. n/t
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
17. wish I knew who was really running 'the obama show'
lot of corporate assholes it seems.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. It has the stink of DLC all over it
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
55. yes . . . the poisonous corporate-DLC . . .
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
58. Psssst: it might actually be HIM
Edited on Thu Jun-11-09 11:19 PM by PurityOfEssence
I don't know why it's so absolutely impossible for so many to see the sheer consistency to his political career: middling corporatism writ large, soft-soaped to slip gently by with seeming allegiance to virtually all groups.

His staffing picks might not be "accidents", the mistakes might not all be made by others, and it may not be dazzlingly artful maneuvering for some populist nirvana.

He may be more of a serial approval-seeker than many think, and unable to escape the dance of chronic campaigning. (The Bill Clinton comparison is flat-out eerie.)

The means may very well BE the ends, yet now decisions must be made.

Appropriately, in light of this particular bit of corporate enabling, I'm reminded of the of the old miner's union song: "Which side are you on?"
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. I think you're on to something.
The only thing that I can add is, "Follow the money."
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. We need to demand an explanation for this.
Why on earth would they move to appeal this ruling? It makes no sense in light of the platform, the campaign promises, . . . nothing.
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Petrushka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Who knows? Maybe it does makes sense, . . . IF . . . .
. . . when the article says:

Lawyers for the Obama administration this morning filed a notice that they plan to appeal the latest federal court ruling that — if not overturned — would require more stringent regulation of mountaintop removal coal mining.

. . . we ask: "'More stringent' than what?"

Who knows? Perhaps the answer is "More stringent than regulation of underground coal mining -- specifically, longwall mining -- where mine wastes are also dumped into streambeds."

:shrug:
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. That's not what I'm reading.
They're appealing the ruling that would make the rules MORE stringent, i.e., they don't want rules that are more strict regarding strip mining.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
21. I wonder what Gore thinks about this?
:wtf:
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Rahm Emmanuel sells out the country yet again, while Obama goes along.
Edited on Thu Jun-11-09 08:38 AM by Vidar
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. It's simply indefensible.
When you could leave the decision alone, but you file an appeal to have it overturned, that's overt action. There's no excuse.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. But plenty will defend it anyway--no doubt about that. n/t
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I can't say that -
because that would be "making trouble".
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. And you would never do that.
T'aint proper.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Some will.
The truly naive and unattached. But I think more and more of the cheerleaders are starting to get pissed too. It will be hard for them to admit it, but the lack of attacks by the purity inquisition indicates a modicum of doubt from the ranks.

What pisses me off is that this is the kind of thing that seems to prove to the occasional voter and the new voter that voting doesn't matter because there is no difference in the outcomes. Love Obama and Michele. They are gorgeous. Very tickled that their pictures show up around the world rather than mccain and plain. But in so many issues, the republicans would be doing the same thing. This is one example.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. That's exactly how I feel.
I love them - truly. He still inspires in his speeches. I just wish he'd step up on these issues. This one especially.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Ditto to the both of you. Actions so far have been status quo
and facilie attempts to look "Democratic" while at the same time being as Conservative as possible.

Most likely the Corporations are threatening a showstopper if the Status Quo doesn't continue, and the Government, too broke and stupid to think of a way out, goes along as a willing conspirator.

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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. RFK Jr. Blasts Obama as 'Indentured Servant' to Coal Industry
Critics Say Clean Coal Is a Boondoggle; 'Clean Coal Is a Dirty Lie'

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Story?id=7392564&page=1

What leads you to believe this was Emmanuel's doing? With Obama "following" along?
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Ilike to think Rahm is dirtier than Obama. It's what little is left of my optimism.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
33. I tried to warn folks about this some time ago
I posted this link to my journal in another thread a while back, but it might be worth reposting it once again here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/theHandpuppet/92
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. What a crying shame, coal is destroying the planet's habitat for humanity via global warming
Edited on Thu Jun-11-09 12:28 PM by Uncle Joe
climate change and we're destroying the mountains to get the instrument of our demise.:-(
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. But-but- it's CLEAN coal!
Obama said so.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
38. There are some issues that have no other side--mountain top removal
and removal of wolves from the Endangered Species Act are two of them. Obama may be the one removed if this keeps up.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. Removing mountains is major change to the landscape
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. Where's the petition to sign? Where's the letter writing campaign?
Where're the marches? Where're the letters to the editors?

Oops, I forgot. This is DemocraticUnderground where people just bitch and moan . . . and practically nothing else . . .
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
48. Filthy PUMA!!!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I just thank God I was never on the PUMA threads
What's the appropriate response to "I told you so"?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
49. Has the uninformed outrage now run its course?
Perhaps the Obama administration filed as they did because they've just worked out a jurisdictional dispute between the Dept. of the Interior, the EPA, and the Army Corp of Engineers and they feel that a court ruling would perhaps reduce the level of environmental protection they've worked to implement.


EPA to Regulate Mountaintop Removal Coal Mining More Stringently
by Matthew McDermott, New York, NY on 06.11.09
Business & Politics

In case you missed it, for the past couple of months a public squabble has been going on between the Environmental Protection Agency and the Army Corps of Engineers over permitting of mountaintop removal coal mining projects. The EPA's stance being that the Corps all too often hasn't done it's job in protecting water quality. Which it hasn't and hasn't for some time, at least since the administration of Bush II. Well, the EPA, the Dept of Interior and the Corps have kissed and made up, today issuing a Memorandum of Understanding on the issue:

What's That About Purple Mountains Majesty?
The MOU opens by waxing poetic about the role of Appalachia's streams and forests in providing sustenance for generations of Americans, and in providing coal-fired heat and electricity. But since we've already used up all the easily accessible coal and can't seem to kick the high-power habit, we've got to resort to more intrusive methods to get our fix. And those methods lead to destruction of mountains, spoilage of ecosystems, ruination of streams and wetlands, and devastation of drinking water. Not to mention the ill health effects on people living in the region. So we have to do something about it.

In case you can't guess, I'm paraphrasing. And while you'd think any addict who has admitted their problem (as the US has done in regards to energy sources at least, if not quantities) would put themselves on some sort of reduction program. At minimum not flaming up the hard stuff. But no, that's not what's happening. Mountaintop removal coal mining will continue, it'll just get a bit more oversight.

Interagency Action Plan to be Implemented
The MOU indicates that an Interagency Action Plan will be implemented which will:

* Minimize the adverse environmental consequences of mountaintop coal mining though short-term actions to be completed in 2009;
* Ensure longer-term actions to tighten the regulation of mountaintop coal mining;
* Ensure coordinated and stringent environmental reviews of permit applications under the Clean Water Act and Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act of 1997;
* Engage the public through outreach events in the Appalachian region to help inform the development of Federal policy;
* Federal Agencies will work in coordination with appropriate regional, state and local entities to help diversify and strengthen the Appalachian regional economy and promote the health and welfare of Appalachian communities.

In terms of those steps happening in 2009, this is what the Corps and the EPA say they will be doing to "minimize environmental harm":

* Requiring more stringent environmental reviews for future permit applications for mountaintop coal mining;
* Within 30 days of the MOU, the Corps will issue a public notice...proposing to modify Nationwide Permit 21 to preclude its use to authorize the discharge of fill materials into streams for surface coal mining activities in the Appalachian region, and will seek public comment on the proposed action;
* Strengthening permit reviews under CWA regulations (Section 404(b)(1)) to reduce the harmful direct and cumulative environmental impacts of mountaintop coal mining on streams and watersheds;
* Strengthening EPA coordination with states on water pollution permits for discharges from valley fills and state water quality certifications for mountain coal mining operations;
* Improving stream mitigation projects to increase ecological performance and compensate for losses of these important waters of the United States.

EPA Statements Encouraging, But Don't Go Far Enough
On the Interagency Action Plan EPA head Lisa Jackson commented that,

Mountaintop coal mining cannot be predicated on the assumption of minimal oversight of its environmental impacts, and its permanent degradation of water quality. Stronger reviews and protections will safeguard the health of local waters, and thousands of acres of watersheds in Appalachia.

Our announcement today reaffirms EPA's fundamental responsibility for protecting the water quality and environmental integrity of streams, rivers, and wetlands under the Clean Water Act. Getting this right is important to coalfield communities that count on a livable environment, both during mining and after coal companies move to other sites.

I realize I am expecting too much from elected officials, beholden to industry and a go slow approach to kicking the coal addiction, and while this is a step forward in terms of regulation—I guess we should be thankful for small things—I can't help but think as a nation the United States is still in denial about the sources of its energy and the amount of energy in consumes.

More: EPA (press release), Implementing the Interagency Action Plan on Appalachian Surface Coal Mining (PDF)

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/epa-to-more-stringently-regulate-mountaintop-removal-coal-mining.php

Original govt. documents available at link.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. "Perhaps" the outrage isn't quite as uninformed as you'd like us to believe.
Thanks for the link, though.

"I realize I am expecting too much from elected officials, beholden to industry and a go slow approach to kicking the coal addiction, and while this is a step forward in terms of regulation—I guess we should be thankful for small things—I can't help but think as a nation the United States is still in denial about the sources of its energy and the amount of energy in consumes."
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. The body of the article quoted at treehugger is clear...
A major effort has just concluded that directly addresses and directly contradicts the claim of the OP that the filing by the Obama administration is proof that Obama policy is just "business as usual" and that they are in bed with the coal companies. The OP is proved by the MOU to be a load of crap.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Wow, you kind of shut this thread down, didn't ya??
:rofl:
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Clear?
You like to use bold type as if that makes something you write more authoritative, but there are several loads of crap being tossed here.

The MOU is a convoluted load in itself. It is standard government-speak that says nothing but seems to. There is nothing clear about any of it. What most of the environmentalists here are concerned about is why does the administration feel the need to hide behind all the verbiage when they admit themselves that the paper is purposelessness. Yep, they do that in the portions that you did not print.

A. The policy and procedures contained within this MOU are intended solely as guidance
and do not create any rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable by any party. This MOU
does not constitute final agency action on any issue, and any actions contemplated by this
MOU will be carried out in an appropriate administrative process by the action agency in
accordance with all applicable laws and regulations.

B. This document does not, and is not intended to, impose any legally binding requirements
on Federal agencies, States, or the regulated public, and does not restrict the authority of the
employees of the signatory agencies to exercise their discretion in each case to make
regulatory decisions based on their judgment about the specific facts and application of
relevant statutes and regulations.

C. Nothing in this MOU is intended to diminish, modify, or otherwise affect statutory or
regulatory authorities of any of the signatory agencies. All formal guidance interpreting this
MOU and background materials upon which this MOU is based will be issued jointly by the
appropriate agencies.


So you dissed the OP for not telling the "whole" story. Seems you were a little guilty of the same. Was it intentional misdirection or just an example of uninformed outrage?
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Yes, clear.

There was a dispute over jurisdiction re mountaintop mining within the various agencies involved. The agencies issued a Memorandum of Understanding that settles the jurisdictional disputes that are involved in the court case. It isn't a set of regulations, it isn't an act of the legislature - it is an agreement between bureaucracies settling a couple of turf battles.

"With this Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), the Department of the Interior (DOI),
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps)
are announcing this Interagency Action Plan (IAP) designed to significantly reduce the harmful
environmental consequences of Appalachian surface coal mining operations, while ensuring that
future mining remains consistent with federal law. This IAP includes a set of short-term actions
to be implemented in 2009 to existing policy and guidance, and a longer term process for
gathering public input, assessing the effectiveness of current policy, and developing regulatory
actions.


The Federal government has made a commitment to move America toward a 21st-century clean
energy economy based on the recognition that a sustainable economy and environment must
work hand in hand. Federal Agencies will work in coordination with appropriate regional, state,
and local entities to help diversify and strengthen the Appalachian regional economy and
promote the health and welfare of Appalachian communities. This interagency effort will have a
special focus on stimulating clean enterprise and green jobs development, encouraging better
coordination among existing federal efforts, and supporting innovative new ideas and initiatives."


I quoted the entire "treehugger" article on the piece, with unmistakable instructions that the original documents were linked there and available for inspection. Not much evidence there to support your allegations I tried to hide something, is there? Of course, you're obviously just intent reveling in baseless criticism so I can understand your angst at having your party disrupted. It comes as no surprise you think the language you point to is some sort of proof that the document is meaningless, just like you think the OP has merit in light of direct evidence to the contrary.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that opinion now has to deal with others having a better understanding of events giving context to the OP. Like you they can read the MOU and the Treehugger article and make their own decision.


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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. When you cherry pick
your quotes, that doesn't give you a "better understanding", but a slanted perspective. You again quote the part of the memo that doesn't matter. LIke bush's signing memos, the last section says it all. After all the flowery words, the memo finishes with the quotes I gave that say, in really clear terms, that the things mentioned in the memo don't matter, have not basis for action, and don't have to be adhered to by anyone at any time.

Your logic is a funny thing to read. You say that I think my quotes are "some sort of proof that the document is meaningless' while your take words from the same document and use big bold type to pronounce that they are evidence of inviolate truth. Your pulled quotes say that the agencies sort of agree to do really good things. But then the same document finishes by saying that all parties agree that nothing written here has any legal or legislative, or binding authority, that the parties can interpret any of the memo in the way they want. In your mind some quotes are more truthful evidence than others.

Do you even know what this memo is? Giving it an acronym and putting it in bold type doesn't make it more important. It's just a common memo that comes from a meeting. As in, hey guys, do we agree that this is sort of the gist of what we talked about at that meeting? Can we all agree that this was said, but also agree that no action is to be based on that discussion. I can understand you angst at having your "proof" to be s exposed as a silly, pointless memo. You offer a piece of bureaucratic tissue to combat an actual court document.

Thank you for allowing me to have an opinion. That opinions is that the administration is coddling energy companies. I don't believe that the administration wants more destruction, but their careful, timid collaboration and cooperation will only be met with bad intent. The energy moguls won't embrace the spirit of a cleaner America, but will use the pusillanimous language to continue to do what they have always done - rape our land for their profit. It is my opinion that they cannot be brought into the fold, that they will not be swayed by public opinion or offers of good will. It will require legal mandates, not a sort of, kind of, halfway, memo of love and understanding to stop their attack on our land. You accuse me of baseless criticism. I accuse you of baseless praising. The fact is that the administration has shown some indication of being more environmentally aware, but that they aren't acting ways that will make change.

You, of course, are similarly entitled to the opinion that singing around the campfire will make the billionaires change their ways. Good luck with that.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. You are a hoot.
You keep trying to shift the focus from whether the OP is accurate or whether it is a distortion of the situation, to a nonsense claim of "cherry picking" and an emotional appeal to hatred against "energy moguls" and their evil ways - things that have nothing to do with understanding the MOU or the actions of the Obama administration in the court case.

"It's just a common memo that comes from a meeting" you say? I'm sure that's why the head of the EPA, Interior Dept., and the ACE are the people to have signed it after months of discussions.

You ask "Do you even know what this memo is?"

Yes, I do, but obviously you don't. It puts in place goals and establishes a pecking order for control of issues related to regulation of mountaintop coal removal. The laws have already been passed and there is a degree of overlap in jurisdiction. This overlap matters little when (as during the Bush administration) the regulatory agencies have no interest in their oversight role, but it matters a lot when they do. Especially if practices have developed during the past that need to be changed.

The situation has two aspects, first the willingness of the executive to exercise regulatory oversight and second the ability of the executive to exercise oversight. In this issue (pollution of waterways) both aspects are in play. I believe that Obama has the willingness to tackle the issue, but you don't. It is pointless to argue that we have "proof" of this willingness one way or the other for there hasn't been enough time for a clear pattern to emerge.

What we can say, however, is whether the characterizations in this thread of the significance of the filing made by the Obama administration is "proof" going to that question of willingness. The answer is undoubtedly no, it isn't proof.

The court case addresses both aspects of regulation that I wrote of above. However, it doesn't clarify the jurisdictional issue nor does it negate the legal basis for the energy companies to expect a certain result from the bureaucracy when they file applications to operate within the laws that exist.

If we give Obama the benefit of the doubt and assume for the moment that he is willing to act as a responsible oversight authority, the next question becomes how is the system best structured to provide that oversight. That is a question that is going to have to be addressed whether it is by court mandate or by administrative (and possibly legislative) action. The MOU dramatically raises the precedence in this process of the EPA opinion. Although the ACE is the lead agency in the permitting, is a huge move to elevate the status of the EPA inputs to the process since the two agencies operate under totally different mandates. It also specifically addresses the court case in the OP and the memo in total is a complete refutation of the OP claim (and the echo chamber dittohead-style remarks in the rest of the thread) of the significance of the court filing. It clearly isn't an effort to conduct "business as usual" the filing is instead an assertion that the administration is intent on developing a functioning oversight regime and properly exercising its oversight authority.

MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING AMONG THE
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY,
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR,
AND U.S. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

IMPLEMENTING THE INTERAGENCY ACTION PLAN ON APPALACHIAN
SURFACE COAL MINING1

JUNE 11, 2009

PREAMBLE

The mountains of Appalachia possess unique biological diversity, forests, and freshwater
streams that historically have sustained rich and vibrant American communities. These
mountains also contain some of the nation’s richest deposits of coal, which have been mined by
generations of Americans to provide heat and electricity to millions in the U.S. and around the
world. After generations of mining, however, the region’s most readily available coal resources
have diminished, and the remaining coal seams are less accessible to non-surface mining
methods.

In response, a surface mining technique commonly referred to as “mountaintop mining”2
has become increasingly prevalent in the Appalachian region. Although its scale and efficiency
has enabled the mining of once-inaccessible coal seams, this mining practice often stresses the
natural environment and impacts the health and welfare of surrounding human communities.
Streams once used for swimming, fishing, and drinking water have been adversely impacted, and
groundwater resources used for drinking water have been contaminated. Some forest lands that
sustain water quality and habitat and contribute to the Appalachian way of life have been
fragmented or lost. These negative impacts are likely to further increase as mines transition to
less accessible coal resources within already affected watersheds and communities.

With this Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), the Department of the Interior (DOI),
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps)
are announcing this Interagency Action Plan (IAP) designed to significantly reduce the harmful
environmental consequences of Appalachian surface coal mining operations, while ensuring that
future mining remains consistent with federal law. This IAP includes a set of short-term actions
to be implemented in 2009 to existing policy and guidance, and a longer term process for
gathering public input, assessing the effectiveness of current policy, and developing regulatory
actions.

The Federal government has made a commitment to move America toward a 21st-century clean
energy economy based on the recognition that a sustainable economy and environment must
work hand in hand. Federal Agencies will work in coordination with appropriate regional, state,
and local entities to help diversify and strengthen the Appalachian regional economy and
promote the health and welfare of Appalachian communities. This interagency effort will have a
special focus on stimulating clean enterprise and green jobs development, encouraging better
coordination among existing federal efforts, and supporting innovative new ideas and initiatives.


Interagency Action Plan


I. COORDINATION ON REGULATORY PROGRAMS

This MOU formalizes the agencies’ IAP for coordinating the regulation of Appalachian
surface coal mining. The elements of the plan are:
 A series of interim actions under existing authorities to minimize the adverse
environmental consequences of Appalachian surface coal mining;
 A commitment by the agencies to investigate and, if appropriate, undertake longer
term regulatory actions related to Appalachian surface coal mining;
 Coordinated environmental reviews of pending permit applications under the Clean
Water Act (CWA) and Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act (SMCRA); and
 A commitment to engage in robust public participation, through public comment
mechanisms and Appalachian public outreach events, helping to inform Federal,
State, and local decisions.

In addition to the steps taken above, the Federal government will help diversify and
strengthen the Appalachian regional economy. This effort will include the agencies to this
MOU, and other Federal agencies, as appropriate, and will work to focus clean energy
investments and create green jobs in Appalachia.

Coordination of interagency policy discussions and assessment of policy effectiveness will
be achieved in consultation with the Council on Environmental Quality.

II. SHORT-TERM ACTIONS TO MINIMIZE ENVIRONMENTAL HARM

The signatory agencies will take the following short-term actions under existing laws,
regulations, and other authorities to reduce the harmful environmental consequences of
Appalachian surface coal mining.

Before the end of 2009, the Corps and EPA will take the following steps:
 Within 30 days of the date of this MOU, the Corps will issue a public notice pursuant
to 33 C.F.R. § 330.5 proposing to modify Nationwide Permit (NWP) 21 to preclude
its use to authorize the discharge of fill material into streams for surface coal mining
activities in the Appalachian region, and will seek public comment on the proposed
action.
 EPA and the Corps, in coordination with DOI’s Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS),
will jointly develop guidance to strengthen the environmental review of proposed
surface coal mining projects in Appalachia under the CWA Section 404(b)(1)
Guidelines.
 Recognizing that the regulation of surface coal mining extends beyond CWA Section
404, EPA will improve and strengthen oversight and review of water pollution
permits for discharges from valley fills under CWA Section 402, and of state water
quality certifications under CWA Section 401, by taking appropriate steps to assist
the States to strengthen state regulation, enforcement, and permitting of surface
mining operations under these programs.
 The Corps and EPA, in coordination with FWS and consistent with the agencies’
regulations governing compensatory mitigation, will jointly issue guidance clarifying
how impacts to streams should be evaluated and how to evaluate proposed mitigation
projects to improve the ecological performance of such mitigation implemented to
compensate for losses of waters of the United States authorized by Section 404
permits.
 EPA, in coordination with the Corps, will clarify the applicability of the CWA waste
treatment exemption for treatment facilities constructed in waters of the United States
in order to minimize the temporary impacts of mining operations on streams.

Before the end of 2009, DOI will take the following steps:
If the 2008 Stream Buffer Zone Rule is vacated by the U.S. District Court for the
District of Columbia in Coal River Mountain Watch et al v. Kempthorne, 1:08-cv-
02212-HHK C, as requested by the Secretary of the Interior on April 27, 2009, the
Office of Surface Mining Reclamation and Enforcement (OSM) will issue guidance
clarifying the application of the 1983 stream buffer zone provisions to further reduce
adverse stream impacts.

 OSM will reevaluate and determine how it will more effectively conduct oversight of
State permitting, State enforcement, and regulatory activities under SMCRA.
 OSM will remove impediments to its ability to require correction of permit defects in
SMCRA primacy states.


III. DEVELOPMENT OF LONGER TERM REGULATORY ACTIONS TO BETTER
MANAGE APPALACHIAN SURFACE COAL MINING

A. OBJECTIVES

The signatory agencies will review their existing regulatory authorities and
procedures to determine whether regulatory modifications should be proposed to
better protect the environment and public health from the impacts of Appalachian
surface coal mining. At a minimum, the agencies will consider:
 Revisions to key provisions of current SMCRA regulations, including the
Stream Buffer Zone Rule and Approximate Original Contour (AOC)
requirements;
 Eliminating use of Nationwide Permit 21 in connection with surface coal
mining in the Appalachian region when the Nationwide Permit Program is
reauthorized in 2012; and
 Revisions to how surface coal mining activities are evaluated, authorized, and
regulated under the CWA.

B. PROCESS

The signatory agencies will create an interagency working group to coordinate the
development of short-term actions, longer term regulatory actions, and coordination
procedures for Appalachian surface coal mining. The group will ensure robust public
involvement in the development of any proposed actions or regulatory reforms.

For any proposed regulatory revision or other action under this MOU that is a major
federal action significantly affecting the quality of the human environment (and is an
action subject to NEPA), an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) will be prepared
to inform the decision-making process. At an early stage in the interagency
coordination process, the working group will determine whether coordinating these
NEPA processes programmatically would more effectively guide regulatory
development and decision-making. The interagency group will coordinate with CEQ
regarding the implementation of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) in
the development of regulatory reforms.


IV. INTERIM INTERAGENCY COORDINATION PROCEDURES

A. Clean Water Act

EPA and the Corps will begin immediately to implement enhanced coordination
procedures applicable to the Clean Water Act review of Section 404 permit
applications for Appalachian surface coal mining activities that have been submitted
prior to execution of this MOU. The goal of these procedures is to ensure more
timely, consistent, transparent, and environmentally effective review of permit
applications under existing law and regulations. The agencies are issuing these
enhanced joint procedures concurrently with this MOU. Also concurrently, EPA is
clarifying the factual considerations it is using to evaluate pending CWA permit
applications under the 404(b)(1) Guidelines.

Pending Clean Water Act Section 404 permit applications for Appalachian surface
coal mining activities will continue to be evaluated by the Corps and EPA on a case-
by-case basis. The agencies will focus their reviews of Appalachian surface coal
mining permit applications based on likely environmental impacts with the goal of
avoiding, minimizing, and mitigating such impacts to the extent practicable under the
CWA Section 404(b)(1) Guidelines and consistent with NEPA. This approach will
enable the continued permitting of environmentally responsible projects.

B. Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act

During 2009, OSM will issue guidance concerning appropriate application of the
Stream Buffer Zone rule and other related rules and will ensure that states are
implementing their counterpart provisions and SMCRA regulatory programs
consistent with the guidance.


V. PUBLIC INVOLVEMENT

This IAP will be accompanied by robust public comment on its short- and longer term
actions. The agencies will hold public meetings in Appalachia during 2009 to gather on-the-
ground input and encourage ongoing local engagement in the environmental assessment and
decision-making process. Additional public participation will occur as agency actions move
forward.


VI. GENERAL

A. The policy and procedures contained within this MOU are intended solely as guidance
and do not create any rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable by any party. This MOU
does not constitute final agency action on any issue, and any actions contemplated by this
MOU will be carried out in an appropriate administrative process by the action agency in
accordance with all applicable laws and regulations.

B. This document does not, and is not intended to, impose any legally binding requirements
on Federal agencies, States, or the regulated public, and does not restrict the authority of the
employees of the signatory agencies to exercise their discretion in each case to make
regulatory decisions based on their judgment about the specific facts and application of
relevant statutes and regulations.

C. Nothing in this MOU is intended to diminish, modify, or otherwise affect statutory or
regulatory authorities of any of the signatory agencies. All formal guidance interpreting this
MOU and background materials upon which this MOU is based will be issued jointly by the
appropriate agencies.

D. Nothing in this MOU will be construed as indicating a financial commitment by DOI, the
Corps, EPA, or any cooperating State agency for the expenditure of funds except as
authorized in specific appropriations.

E. This MOU will take effect on the date shown above and will continue in effect until
permanent procedures are established, or unless earlier modified or revoked by agreement of
all signatory agencies. Modifications to this MOU may be made by mutual agreement of all
the signatory agencies. Modifications to the MOU must be made in writing.




Signed,






_________________________________ _________________________________
Lisa P. Jackson Ken Salazar
Administrator Secretary
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency U.S. Department of the Interior



_________________________________
Terrence “Rock” Salt
Acting Assistant Secretary
of the Army (Civil Works)
U.S. Department of the Army
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-11-09 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
54. When you leave Bush loyalists in the DOJ ....this will happen ....
Edited on Thu Jun-11-09 09:08 PM by defendandprotect
This is one of the most disgusting exploitations of our environment!!!

SHAME ON YOU OBAMA, SHAME ON YOU!!!

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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-12-09 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
61. We've known all along he'd be sucking up to King Coal
Any politician from states like Illinois, West Virginia, Kentucky, etc. will. If this goes to the Supreme Court, we all know how they'll rule.

The saddest thing is that there are scores of people throughout Appalachia that are convinced that mountaintop removal means more jobs for coal miners, when the exact opposite is true. To say nothing of the horrendous amounts of environmental damage made by blowing up shitloads of rock into the water supply.
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