Is it time to seperate the progressive movement from Obama and the Dem majority? nt

[grahamhgreen]

[BlooInBloo]

1. Bye.

[Greyhound]

3. You lose. n/t

[babylonsister]

2. And go where, do what, support who? nt

[grahamhgreen]

I dont know, scare the dems into doing something real for the people, i guess

I don't think they can win without us...

[ecstatic]

11. How convenient

for republicans. :eyes:

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. At their own peril , I guess.

[NNN0LHI]

5. Who is this progressive movement you speak of? Be specific

[grahamhgreen]

9. Single payer / end 'war on terror' / no bail-louts for banks / prosecute torture / no wiretaps / mor

Kyoto.

Basically, enlightened European style social democratic policies.

Can they get elected without us?

[NNN0LHI]

23. You think splitting the Dems into 6 different groups would be advantageous to us?

Ever hear of divide and conquer?

I bet you did.

Don

[Greyhound]

33. So do you think that your guys can just ignore and abuse us with no consequence?

When does your side make concessions?

You do know that without us, you lose every election, don't you?

[Kaleva]

45. Can't win without the moderates...

be they Democrat, Republican or Independent. Looking at the exit polling data at CNN, I see that about twice as many moderates voted for Obama as did liberals. Had McCain and Obama split the moderate vote 50/50, we'd be talking about President McCain and VP Palin right now.

[Greyhound]

51. So from your perspective, it's better to lose than to compromise.

Well, I did just great in the 80s, your gang, not so much.

Brilliant strategy you got there.

[BzaDem]

52. Yes actually.

Though I wouldn't call it "ignoring" or "abusing" you. I would call it a recognition that your favored candidates (and therefore policies) do not win primary elections.

Occasionally, there is a group of people who doesn't like the fact that they didn't get their preferred nominee, and they vote against their own interests in the general (see election 2000, and PUMAs in 2008). But they eventually come back, since there's nothing like a good motivator than good old reality hitting them smack in the face (see 8 years of Bush, George W).

So you go ahead and vote for the Republican, or some non-viable party. Even if you are successful, you will just cause the policies of the country to be further to the right, not further to the left. And eventually, you will realize this and come around. Quite predictably. (See share of Nader's vote dropping by a factor of 10 from 2000 to 2004, despite Kerry being further to the center on many policies than Gore.)

Maybe one day, people like you will realize that instead of whining and threats and such, the best way to enact policies you agree with is to get candidates you agree with nominated and elected. And maybe you will realize that sometimes, this is not possible, because not enough people in the country agree with you. Maybe you will realize that this is called democracy. But I am not hopeful about this. Luckily, reality ends up as a sufficient check on irrational voters to make them irrelevant in the long run.

[Greyhound]

56. Ah yes, the voice of the strategy that brought the last 30 years of Democratic power.

Oh wait, you didn't have any power and the nation is in the toilet, isn't it? Well you just keep working that old black magic you got there, and keep getting the same results. I'm sure that all you "useless eaters" will do just fine.

Me? I'm over here once again being a guerrilla entrepreneur and simply not participating in your game. I don't depend on anybody for a paycheck, I tried it and found that it doesn't work any better today than it did 30 years ago, so pay no attention to me and those like me.

What you consistently fail to realize is that we don't need you, we already know how to live outside your system. So every decade or two we think, "maybe they have finally gotten it through their thick skulls" and come out to see if we can help, and what do we find? You and your lack.

So now we'll just go back to letting you follow your leaders into the chute. Enjoy the ride, it's much shorter than you think.
:hippie:

[dionysus]

79. thats quite a superiority complex you have going. aren't you just the coolest...

:rofl:

[cali]

61. fail, darling.

I don't think you realize what a tiny minority you are. Most progressives aren't among your numbers. The Counterpunch faction is utterly insignificant as a voting bloc.

[Greyhound]

63. My number is one. I don't know to what group you have assigned me,

and I don't care. As I told the previous corporatist, I will do fine, I've been here before and the game is easy for me.

You are all snug and secure in your hole and maybe it will be alright for you, but what you espouse will be disaster for millions around you, and instead of helping, you egg them on. That is where you and I part company. I find your kind to be even more reprehensible than the blatant parasites that move and shake. You dissuade others from taking actions that might help them so that you can feel secure.

Well, there's well over 25M people within easy traveling distance of your enclave that will not care about your opinions or what side you were on if your kind get their way as it appears they will.

But don't worry, it can't possibly happen here.

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."

[ProfessorGAC]

71. Unbrilliant

Yeah, your "to hell with everyone else and the rest of the country" perspective is so enlightened. I can really tell how progressive you are! :sarcasm:

[Greyhound]

89. Well you just haven't been paying attention to the ongoing debate between us.

Cali & I have very different opinions on most things.

I wish nobody harm and am very vocal about where I see this going and what needs to be done.

We don't agree.

So, you can catch up and join in, butt out, or just hang back and inject your pithy commentary half way through, either way is just fine with me.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

80. so you live in an enclave with the other 5 kucinich fans?

:shrug:

[Greyhound]

90. Thanks for your opinion, it's been duly noted and preserved for posterity.

Everybody that follows these "discussions" knows your (completely unsupported) opinion of DK, and speaking for myself, I couldn't care less.

Now, feel free to piss off.

[PufPuf23]

68. Counterpunch may be insignificant as a voting block

but how more often do they have depth analysis and represent a reality that is easy for many to deny rather than self-reflection.

Caveat: Counterpunch has many contributors and one should be selective, Field and un-associated journalists that are intellectuals are unfortunately an endangered species.

[mmonk]

6. Ask Rahm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html

[babylonsister]

18. Ask Rahm?

Scahill? He's invested in attacking, and I wish I knew why. Here's a different kind of Rahm article-different opinions are good.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8460064

The Peace Maker-Rahm Emanuel's Mideast Mission

[mmonk]

91. I thought we were talking about separating out the Progressives.

Are you saying Rahm Emanuel likes grass roots progressives and also liberals?

[armyowalgreens]

7. Yeah. We can turn into the left wing version of the libertarians...

In other words we will be powerless and considered crazy.

[grahamhgreen]

10. I guess the real question is how many of us have they lost already...

[armyowalgreens]

13. I've only been sticking around so the republicans don't win.

Eventually, I'll ditch them if a more progressive party emerges.

[grahamhgreen]

17. The issue is that I'm worried the average American will wind up thinking Obama is progressive,

and when his Republican lite policies fail, they will then look to the Repubs....

[armyowalgreens]

22. Or we can have anarchy!!!

I think if the American people become dissatisfied with Obama, they will start killing each other because there is nothing left for the masses to turn to. Unless of course they like Kucinich.

But I don't see the American people going back to the republicans for at least 2 more elections.

[grahamhgreen]

25. Not if the economy still sucks... imho

[mamaleah]

24. You assume too much

The "average American" is just that: AVERAGE. Neither deeply Liberal nor deeply Conservative. Likes some good change, but don't go gettin' all whackadoodle. Doesn't want to be forced to go to church, but you better not try to take the Christmas tree out of the town square. Does have concerns about the environment, but is not about to go live in a tiny Japanese style apartment that allows for about 3ft of personal space or give up their cars and walk everywhere. Is very unhappy with the war in Iraq, but is not interested in hearing "Let's dismantle the military!".

So the average American is pretty centrist to slightly left of center.

[grahamhgreen]

29. OK, I'll hang in there... keep pushing ....

[mamaleah]

31. Well only hang in there if

you can deal. If you think you are going to get the country to embrace a Pat Buchanan of the left, you might not want to hold your breath.

The conservatives have been praying that people will embrace that level of whackadoddle for ages. And yet he always comes in a nice dead last.

Extreme left or right does not play on Main Street.

[grahamhgreen]

83. FDR is what I expect. The policies of FDR.

[babylonsister]

20. If you've been 'lost', then you hadn't been paying attention the past

8 years. You think this is bad?

Bye!

[grahamhgreen]

21. yes, torture and war for profit and an end to habeus is VERY bad, an no health care, or EFCA, etc

[babylonsister]

26. You need to decide who you want to blame.

You're confusing issues. And please point out the final determinations on EFCA and healthcare, thanks. I want to know why I should be ready to separate myself from the Dem party.

[Greyhound]

27. So, IOW, same old same old. Feh.

After you've been in the trenches for awhile you get used to it.

But they know and we know that without us, Democrats lose, period.

Remember that we are still early in an off year, once the mid-term primary season starts you'll see these shitheels offering daily hummers to get our support. And, depending on how bad things are allowed to get, we'll once again "give them a chance".

We're so dumb sometimes.
:shrug:

[Butch350]

8. To dream...

The impossible dream...etc

[mamaleah]

12. Wouldn't that be the Green Party?

They already exist......go join?

[grahamhgreen]

14. Ugh... might have to.

[mamaleah]

16. Well go and enjoy.

As an above poster said...it's like the Libertarian of the left.

[grahamhgreen]

19. Yes, our only value is as spoilers in elections it seems...

[mamaleah]

28. See my post #24

You have to stop working under the assumption that everyone wants to live like you and believes as you do.

[Greyhound]

44. Your perspective is the result of recent propaganda that exploits American's adversity

to learning. IOW, you are flat out wrong.

Here are a few facts for you to ponder, if you're so inclined.

This nation was founded upon radical ideals by terrorists.

The People of this nation were going Socialist/Communist in the 1930s and FDR, recognizing this, betrayed the people that put him in power (his backers, not the voters) in order to preserve the institutions that preserved their power base (see his inauguration speeches, particularly 1936).

Before him, Teddy Roosevelt committed treason against his class by breaking up the trusts, and thereby preserving their powerbase, because The People were/had rejected the Robber Barrons and were on the verge of revolution.

Before Teddy, Lincoln said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it..." Again, a bold leader steps in to preserve the system of the parasites, for the parasites, and receives nothing but scorn and violence from those he saved from the wrath of The People.

Your belief that there is some consensus among Americans that being "centrist" is normal or desirable has no historical basis and is a wholly manufactured fallacy. Propagated by the beneficiaries of that disinterested mediocrity.

[mamaleah]

59. How are you so sure they are still willing to go that way?

And if not they should be forced? I think the Socialist movement of the 30s was distorted by what countries like the USSR became: disgusting authoritarian nations where the allegedly intellectually elite "led" and "did what was in the best interests of the people".

Many people in this country are not nearly as miserable or as downtrodden as many extreme left or right think they are or worse - want them to be so that they can use it against them.

[Greyhound]

60. I'm not sure at all, in fact I'm worried that we have been so dumbed down

that we will sit quietly in our pens and happily be led into the slaughterhouse.

I never said anything about forcing anyone to do anything, if the sheeple are willing to go quietly then it is a net benefit to the human gene pool.

I don't see how your opinion of the socialist movement in the 1930s has any bearing on what was happening then. I learned what I did by listening to those that were there (Al Lewis is a good start), what I heard was disappointment and trepidation over what Stalin was doing/had done and how he had twisted the intent of the revolution to his own ends. One might think we could learn from the mistakes of others.

"Many people in this country are not nearly as miserable or as downtrodden as many extreme left or right think"

Thanks for the label of extreme, I'm sure the Ministry of Truth approves. Not yet, that's what we want to prevent, but alas the sheeple seem determined to ignore reality and what is happening to their neighbors, hoping that they will be spared.

One great difference that I think I'm seeing between now and then, is an increase in callousness for each other that I get the impression was not nearly so pronounced then.

As always, I hope I'm completely wrong.

ETA; It's rather ironic that one who sports the Star of David seems so obdurate to what has been and is happening now.

[mamaleah]

67. Re; my Magen David

I sport that because I am an Orthodox Jew. That's unyielding to plenty of people.

[cali]

62. What nonsense. This country was founded by landed gentry

who objected to being ruled from 3 thousand miles away and paying high taxes to what they considered a foreign entity. And in his first few months in office, FDR was certainly not considered radical anything. As for what most Americans are, let me give you a clue: They're persuadable. There's so much evidence for that that only someone blindly obtuse could deny it. Deny away.

[Greyhound]

66. Your ignorance is showing. You can possibly fool some of the young

and some of the uneducated with the term "landed gentry" but the truth is that, with few exceptions, most were just average working men of their day, the middle-class. Further, almost all of them died in or near poverty after the revolution, having put themselves and all they had on the line to give us an opportunity to escape what you regularly champion.

Your attempt to diminish what they did and to sully their motivations makes me sick.:puke:

The day I need a clue from such as you is the day I die.

[cali]

73. Do tell what was wrong with what I wrote, dear.

The founding fathers were indeed largely landed gentry. Taxation by England was a big issue. And they sought to enfranchise only landholders. Yes,some died in poverty. Most did not. And no, I'm not seeking to sully their memory. I think the enlightenment, of which they were decidedly adherents, was a high point in philosophy. (I suggest you read Peter Gay's splendid book on the enlightenment- not that you'd be able to follow it.)


Oh, and don't worry, your mindless adherence to dogma and revisionism make me :puki: :puke: :puke:

[Odin2005]

77. You're romanticizing.

The American Revolution originated as a "Tax Revolt" by the landed gentry and the merchants. When the average people started taking the ideological memes of the Revolution seriously the elites turned around and suppressed them (Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion and the Federalist antipathy to the French Revolution).

[dionysus]

81. you're wrong! America was founded by kucinich's great great great grandfather, and ralph nader when

he was a lad... and they did it through SOCIALISM!!!!1!!!1!

[Toasterlad]

15. That Would Impy They Were Ever Connected.

[harun]

78. I think we all hoped they were.

To me it seems like when the freepers get their guys in they go "as far right as the law will allow them" (direct B*sh quote) and when our guys and gals get in they go as far right as the their constituents will let them get away with.

Other than a few members of the House (Conyers, Kucinich, etc.) I don't see anyone really pushing things.

[NoPasaran]

30. These blueberries are delicious

[mamaleah]

32. Better than popcorn? nt

[Bluenorthwest]

75. People who see serious discussion as a form of

pop corn munching entertainment reveal the truth of their heart and hand without even knowing it.

[mamaleah]

93. Aw, that was beautiful!

Yes, because joking over someone who thinks splitting a party will do any good is just awful. More awful then splitting said party. Yup. You got it.

Excuse me, I need more popcorn.

[Dragonfli]

34. The Dem majority has separated itself from the progressive movement - better question:

Should people that believe in progressive principles continue to support the conservative Democrats?

It is a personal decision really and not one you can make for the entire movement.

If you hold the same views that you did 30 years ago, you will probably be labeled "far left" or "fringe wackadoodle" even tho those views were openly part of the Democratic mainstream back then.

Such was the power of Reagan. Such is the power of corporate lobbyists and Corporate dems.

First you need to accept that. They are no longer the same party they were, but you can be the same Democrat you have always been if you like, that choice is yours.

Many of the "New" Democratic politicians have more in common with Nixon than they do with FDR or JFK, a good way to be who you are and not go against your principles would be to oppose those politicians in primaries. The same skills and grassroots hustle that we used to help all the other sub-groups elect Obama can be used to find and encourage more populist and less corporate Democrats to replace them. As the old saying goes "they have the money, but we have the interests of the people"

If most Republicans were not outright fascist or dominionists it would be possible to explore forming a liberal party fashioned after the old Democratic party at it's best. As it stands Republican light is the lesser of a more blatant evil.

The corporate Democrats are tending in the same direction but far more slowly, it is a personal decision you must make for yourself, but there is real danger in enabling Republicans at this time in history.

As for me and the canvass crew that got together the last two elections, we have made our decision by unanimous vote; being largely working class Democrats we can see that we were taken for a bit of a ride but have decided to use all our energy exclusively to strengthen the rights and the financial interests of the working and poor folks. We intend to be far more active than "the machine" pushing populist Democrats and liberals (Greens if they fit the bill) and hopefully showing them that our support is not to be taken for granted but to be taken as help to gain power to HELP US. It is not a Quixotic cause, as we have been responsible for delivering a great many votes for the machine that will no longer be theirs but rather votes for others we believe will vote in our interests.

Your decision, but my advice would be to realize the power you have and fight harder than ever, just not for those that will ignore you once in office.

We are already targeting my DLC congressman in my district and are discussing logistics to take the act on the road to help canvass anywhere we can afford to reach to help other promising people first politicians.

The message that would be helpful would be "You can no longer take us for granted, but those that vote for our interests can."

We will simply not vote at all if the Dem is an obvious false flag Republican. Maybe they will stop running republicans as Democrats if they can't get our support.

I will not personally vote for a republican ever, even if it wears a (D) on it's sport jersey because we have given them the power to vote against our best interests along with their less closeted Republican Brethren and I will no longer be partly responsible for that.

[Individualist]

35. Wish I could recommend your post

:applause:

[Dragonfli]

38. Just speaking my mind - but thanks! n/t

[Swamp Rat]

47. AMEN!

:applause:



:hi::hug:

[Dragonfli]

86. Hi Stranger! How goes the Traveling? n/t

[KoKo]

87. Nice Post...worth a read and thanks..

:kick:

[dajoki]

95. Thank you...

for saying what I'm thinking. I always use the term, "its no longer our grandfather's Democratic party" but I love your post!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Fortunately, we can still vote our conscience despite the letter behind our names.

"In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place." Mohandas K. Gandhi

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams

[Dragonfli]

41. Great Quotes! n/t

[Dramarama]

57. YES!

Issues before parties. Hopefully the party will stick to it's members stances

[JeffR]

37. Oh goodness gracious, most definitely.

I'm starting my own party tomorrow. I had a long, fancy name worked out for it, but on reflection I decided to go with something shorter and snappier. So please, next time around, vote Fester!!!!11111

(note to mods: do I really need to use the sarcasm thingy?)

[mamaleah]

39. Fester! I like that!

May I get a photo with you? :P

[JeffR]

43. LOL! You can just Photoshop this in to whatever shot you have in mind.

[Swamp Rat]

48. LOLOL!!!

:rofl:

The Fester Party11!.... DUzy! :D

If only I had access to Photoshop and my work station. :evilgrin:

[JeffR]

50. We here at Academy HQ eagerly await your reunion with the tools

of your dark and diabolical trade.

:fistbump:

[Swamp Rat]

53. I hope you have a lot of patience

I won't return to the USA for a long time... I'll be with my new friends for a good while. :smoke: :D

[JeffR]

55. The Dude abides, my friend, the Dude abides.

Oh, and so do I.

[leftofthedial]

40. will progressives do it?

or have the conservative, corporatist dems already done it?

[madeline_con]

42. Absolutely. Divide the party, by all means. n/t

[Kaleva]

46. This has been talked about for years. It doesn't happen.

Come election year, many convince themselves that the alternative, a Republican victory, is too great a risk so they vote Dem even though their views may be more in line with the Green Party then with the Democrat Party.

[Greyhound]

49. Yes, unfortunately it does, and the results are Raygun and 41. n/t

[krispos42]

54. Right after we get instant runoff voting.

Until then... unlikely.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. Is it time to cut off my foot with a plastic spoon? n/t

[TheKentuckian]

64. Radicalized left abandons Democrats, Republiscum wins damaging the country and dragging it rightward

Radicalized lefts come back to stop the madness, become disenchanted with Democrats declaring both parties are the same, abandon Democrats, Republiscum win and drag the country rightward. Each time there is more heavy lifting to be done and more entrenched opposition but we'll apparently keep rolling the cycle.

[Chisox08]

65. No the Corpartist Dems has moved away from progressives

It seems like every election they play to the progressive voters but once they are elected they go out of their way to screw the poor and the middle class. I don't want to leave the Democratic pary but the DINOs can.
These "New" Dems has nothing in common with the New Deal Dems who led this country in the longest period of prosperity it has ever seen. These guy has more in common with Nixon, Miller and Goldwater. While the Repukes has moved over into lunatic fringe of the Right Wing, the "New" Dems has taken their place as the conservative party.

[Seldona]

69. No.

eom

[Douglas Carpenter]

70. NO! It is time to attach the progressive movement to President Obama and the Dems more than ever!!

It makes all the sense in the world to try to link President Obama to progressive positions at every opportunity. In the early 30's, the labor movement and other progressive elements tied themselves at every opportunity with FDR even though, Roosevelt's actual positions on the unions and other progressive causes were sometimes inconsistent and sometimes less than completely enthusiastically supportive. That strategy was very successful and helped create a lasting bond between the Democratic Party and the labor movement and progressivism and opened the way for a great deal of progressive legislation.

Besides, there is NO CHOICE!!

Unless one wants to throw control of the American government, the direction of American foreign policy and the appointment of American judges to people who think exactly like the crazies on Fox News!!
FOX NEW SUPPORTERS ARE THE ONLY OTHER POWER BASE CAPABLE OF FORMING A GOVERNING COALITION. THAT IS REALITY IN THE REAL WORLD!!!

[wyldwolf]

72. look back at instances over the last 50 years and see how well that's worked

Besides, there are far more people who refer to themselves as progressives that are loyal Democrats than there are the tiny little faction you apparently identify with. You'd be lucky to get 1%.

[Odin2005]

76. The so-called "progressives" have seperated themselves from reality.

[KoKo]

88. What do you mean by ""so-called Progressives?"

:shrug: Do you know what a progressive is? What's YOUR Definition...and what do you mean by "so-called." You are implying that Dems on the Left are "pretenders?"

[scheming daemons]

82. Yes... by all means... be sure to make Boehner the Speaker of the House in '10

:thumbsup:
:eyes:

[spanone]

84. no

nwmhtt

[kjackson227]

85. no.

[marmar]

92. Lord have mercy.....

:eyes:

[LWolf]

94. They aren't, and haven't been, connected. nt

[anonymous171]

96. Define "Progressive" for me.

Something tells me you are more in line with the far-left than progressives.