The Individual Mandate. Fascism and the Public Option

[PHIMG]

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” - Benito Mussolini.

With the individual mandate the government does not do the sensible thing -- provide you health coverage paid for by dependable, stable, progressive taxes. No under the individual mandate the government will force you to buy a defective product from greedy, often criminal profiteers, at vastly inflated prices out of your own pocket with deductibles, co-payments and premiums that rise 4x the cost of inflation. Is this not an egregious example of the merger of state and corporate power?

Polls show that American's want real reform, even if that comes in a form that can be dishonestly smeared by the insurance industry and the self-destructing Republican party as 'socialized medicine'. But because our President and "centrist" Democrats in the Senate have whored themselves out to the highest bidder what we're left with as a starting point is giving the insurance companies exactly what they want -- the individual mandate and begging and pleading for them to accept some version, any version, of the "public option."

Despite the assertions from the Centrists sell outs in D.C, and the PHArMA-lead HCAN astroturf campaign, single payer is politically viable. The movement for Single Payer health care has never been stronger, from the Baucus 13 demonstrations to countless local actions targeting Congressional leaders across the country.

It's time for Public Option advocates to wake up and smell the corruption in D.C. and realize that from the start, the public option was set to be negotiated away, watered down, and loop-holed into irrelevance. What remains? The individual mandate. A win for the insurance companies, a loss for the taxpayer and little hope to the victims of our countries ongoing health care catastrophe.

Real Healthcare reform can not and will never originate from the sold out Democratic leadership, Andy Stern - SEIU and PHArMA. It has to come from the people. We will make collusion with the insurance industry political suicide for elected officials.

[Oregone]

1. "Fascism is the merger of corporate and state power."

No it isn't

[TahitiNut]

2. Oh, goody. A retort worthy of the Argument Clinic.

:eyes:

[PHIMG]

3. “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism..."

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

- Benito Mussolini

[Oregone]

5. And now, photocopy of the original source of that quote please. :)

Yeah, ouch. Thats the problem.

That quote contradicts everything Mussolini has said about private corporations elsewhere. Fascism is concerned about the state only, not corporations or individuals (only what they can give the state).

[DJ13]

4. The central economic idea of all forms of fascism is corporatism.

The central economic idea of all forms of fascism is corporatism. Corporatism is government control of the economy by cartelizing it, that is, by selecting favoured firms in an industry. These favoured firms fix prices and create barriers to entry and obstacles for competitors, and by controlling which firms have corporate rights. The government thereby maintains a level of power over the economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist#Economic_policies
Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Oregone]

6. So guilds were fascist?

There is a lot more to what fascism is. You guys are missing the ball. Most of it comes from this absurd and misunderstood quote from Benito.

People should rather read his "What is Fascism".

[DJ13]

7. So you're defending fascism?

lol

[Oregone]

8. No, merely pointing out that you don't understand what it is.

Its rather hard to fight something you don't understand.

Corporatism is not Fascism. They both rather suck.

"The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu instrument in the interest of the nation. In view of the fact that private organization of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production. State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management." - "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions"

Fascism is the antithesis of Liberalism and Socialism. Facism operates on the belief that private individuals and businesses can best contribute the the edification of the state (as they should), and the state will only get involved insofar as they need to for the state's own benefit (rather than pre-emptively for the benefit of the people). "Merging" power would only stand in their way. Promoted individualism among entities, as a product of the state, takes little importance over the ability of unfettered entities to promote the state. In other words, in fascism, the government will not help you, but rather expect that you help them so you can be part of something great. The strongest survive, who are the exalted heroes, only to help the state as a whole.

[DJ13]

9. Oh, you're right

You're opinion is more valid than anything I can post in response.

Feel better now?

lol

[Oregone]

10. Forget my opinion. Read attributable documents on Fascism then

Rather than what other people say it is.

[PHIMG]

11. I would guess that he's defending Corporatism n/t

[DJ13]

12. Yeah, thats what I figured too

[Oregone]

14. Strawman arguments are fun. Whee

[Oregone]

13. No, not quite that either (a lot of strawmans here)

Im just saying they aren't the same thing, at all.

They both fall short using a country's labor and capital to benefit the inhabitants.

Corporatism is about pooling capital and power to the corporations for their benefit.

Fascism is about the complete and absolute edification of only the State

[PHIMG]

16. Fascism today is different than it was in the past

It isn't party boss's running the state out in the open, it is lobbyists from corporations in the shadows. The element of merger of corporate and state power is unchanged just hidden and outsourced.

[Oregone]

18. Because everyone forgot what it used to be...

And used the word to be associated with any ideaology they disagreed with.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html

[Echo In Light]

15. Fascism is a merger of state/corporate power, but also belligerently rightward

So, yes, that absolutely applies to America. The only reason people here don't see it is because they are here, and M$M strategically frames and/or contextualizes things quite inaccurately. People can be indoctrinated into perceiving reality completely bass-akward.

[Oregone]

17. "The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effec

"The corporate State considers that private enterprise in the sphere of production is the most effective and usefu instrument in the interest of the nation. In view of the fact that private organization of production is a function of national concern, the organiser of the enterprise is responsible to the State for the direction given to production. State intervention in economic production arises only when private initiative is lacking or insufficient, or when the political interests of the State are involved. This intervention may take the form of control, assistance or direct management." - "Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions"

Does that sound like a merger?

What you describe is Corporatism

This is going to be a long thread...

[PHIMG]

19. Not really because you entirely miss the point

And are on some quest to SAVE the meaning of the word Fascism.

I think the analogy stands. I'm sorry you disagree.

[Oregone]

21. The analogy is from a misattribution of a Mussolini quote

Here is a summary:
http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html

Yes, we need to SAVE the meaning of fascism so it isn't bandied around and applied to every damn policy one side or another doesn't want. We need to save it because it is a dangerous concept that we should not forget anytime soon. There are fascist elements in the USA (a whole lot in the last 8 years), but if you don't know what it is, how can you ever fight it.

Fascism isn't corporatism... (though, they both are anti-socialistic in nature).

"War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death...."

"After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage...."

That is fascism. If you don't think it is important to SAVE and remember what that is, fine by me. Agree to disagree.

[PHIMG]

22. Save the precious word!

It is fair to use the specter of Fascism to defeat Corporatism -- the spirit of the father lives on in that of the son.

American style corporate Democracy is spreading and we need to kill it.

I will not bend to the whims of the history in context word police.

[Oregone]

23. wow.

Fine by me. Go sigh up for a wiki account and make up a bunch of fake fascism quotes to tie it to corporatism. As long it helps your cause.

Corporatism is a shitty enough idea to argue against it based on its own merits. There is empirical data that illustrates it is an ineffective means to not only grow an economy long term, but also grow a society and improve quality of life.

[Echo In Light]

20. As long as you want and need to make it