my friend is seeing an alternative healer who is giving her the most dire

[cali]

news- that she'll die within 6 months if she doesn't do this and that. My friend is a fantastic and very smart woman but she has utter faith in this person and now she's scared to death. My friend has been seeing this woman for years and spent thousands and thousands on treatments. I've never said anything to her but this is just beyond the pale. I did gently remind her that so and so is not a doc, and that she really should see her primary care physician who is a really good guy- and our next door neighbor. I'm disgusted. Here is the resume (sort of) of the person my friend is seeing.

Since 1989: Practicing holistic therapy for 14 years that incorporates herbs, homeopathy, and nutrition. Diagnostic skills include darkfield microscope blood analysis, oriental tongue and pulse diagnosis, and energy scanning.

1996 to present: Teaching a two-year training in Constitutional Herbalism, awards credit for completion of this class.


1996-99: Workshop presenter at Healing with Flowers Conference, Rowe, MA.


1992-97: Workshop presenter at Green Nations Gathering, Phoenicia, NY.


1989: Graduated summa cum laude, with high honors, Phi Beta Kappa in biology and pre-med from Smith College after completing an honors thesis on The Role of Plant Saponins in Immunotherapy. Her thesis has been accepted for publication.


1989: Trained in darkfield microscope analysis of live blood cells at the Hematologic Physiologic Research Institute, Detroit, MI.


1988: Received a research grant from the American Society of Pharmacognosy to study the effect of "blood cleansing herbs" on immune cells.


1987-89: Presented research papers at:

March 1987: Ninth Annual Society of Ethnobiology Conference, Albuquerque, NM

June 1987: The Society for Economic Botany annual conference, Brooklyn NY

August 1989: The American Society of Pharmacognosy, San Juan, PR


1979-85: Authored nutrition curricula for elementary students and adults in Raleigh, NC and Andover, MA. Co-authored NutriWork curriculum marketed to companies seeking to improve employee wellness and productivity.

[vadawg]

1. i would just list the person as a kook and try and get your friend to think the same way

persuade your friend to talk to her GP if she has concerns, hopefully a simple blood test etc could put her mind at rest.

[cali]

6. I can't just call the "healer" a kook. My friend is devoted to her

I do think I can convince her to to her doc though- fortunately she's not totally against alleopathic medicine. What's pissing me off are the dire predictions of blindness and death.

[Mika]

62. Great medical advice.

So, a simple blood test will do the trick?

Quack quack.

---

[NNN0LHI]

2. very smart woman?

Compared to what?

Don

[vadawg]

4. rofl great reply, i missed that bit

[cali]

9. Yes. She's very bright, cultured and multi talented

belief in such nonsense isn't relegated to the stupid. Hell, my dad had a brilliant friend who on the advice of Wilhelm Reich put his kid in an Orgone box when the kid had appendicitis. Perhaps not so coincidentally, both these folks are artist. My dad's friend was a renowned symphony conductor. My friend is in the visual arts.

[MrScorpio]

65. Don't blame the artists

I'm an artist, and I'd much rather use traditional medicine by real life doctors

[Orrex]

17. There's no reason to assume that she isn't smart

She has made a bad decision, just as millions of smart people do every day. If cali were to question her intelligence, it certainly wouldn't help her, and it certainly wouldn't inspire the woman to trust cali.

I suspect that the "alternative" practitioner has even said something manipulative along the lines of "you're a smart woman; just follow these steps and you'll be fine." That's how the scam works. That's how the scam has always worked.

[NNN0LHI]

22. That all depends on what ones definition of smart is

This woman doesn't meet the definition of smart I am accustomed to using.

Don

[Orrex]

23. Now you're just being arrogant and patronizing

Look around DU; you'll find no greater foe of pseudoscientific alternative healing than me. But you're just declaring her unintelligent because it makes it easier for you to dismiss her particular case and the underlying issue.

In essence, you've claimed that she can't be smart because she's made a decision that you don't support. Do you commonly dismiss people on the basis of a single factor, or do you accept that people are more complex and nuanced than that?

Are you a one-issue voter, as well?

[NNN0LHI]

40. Now you are resorting to trying to insult me

So this conversation has ended.

Thanks for playing though.

Don

[Orrex]

56. The conversation ended two posts ago

[Mika]

64. Not adhering to conventional expectations is just why it is called alternative.

Some of the dumbest, tunnel thinking, no clue whatsoever, pill pushing, conventional medicine doctors I've met have diplomas and certificates plastered all over their walls.

Sticking to strict definitions in health care won't get one very healthy in this country. That's why so many travel out of this country to get alternative treatments that the conventional HC system in this country has chosen not to embrace (for a myriad of reasons, few having to do with health care).

---

[redqueen]

68. 'Whom', not 'what'. (nt)

[rug]

3. Show her this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3908942

A presenter at the Healing With Flowers Conference wouldn't cut it for me or with anyone I care about.

[Orrex]

5. This is yet another sad example of the ways that pseudoscientic "alternative" "medicine" can harm

So it appears that this highly qualified scaremonger hasn't received any certifications nor published anything since 1989? Why not?


Do you know why your friend won't speak with an actual medical professional? Does she perhaps suspect that something is wrong, and she doesn't want to have it confirmed?

It's sick that a nutritionist and narrow-focus hematologist with a BS in biology is giving terminal diagnoses. Has this nutritionist given a cause of death, or has she simply said "do as I say, or you you'll die?"

[cali]

15. My friend does see regular docs. She has a wonderful primary care physician

who literally lives next door to her. And she will, I'm sure, go see him. For years, her seeing the person I refer to, seemed pretty harmless to me- if expensive- but this scaremongering really troubles me. And no, the "healer" hasn't been specific about cause of death.

[Orrex]

21. Wonderful

The only positive thing that can be said of some "alternative" "healers" is that they don't charge exorbitant fees, though there are spectacular examples of hucksters preying upon the vulnerable. It sounds like your friend has gotten stuck with one of the latter.

The "healer's" failure to disclose a cause of death is, sadly, typical.


Let us know how it goes once your friend has spoken with an actual medical professional. However, I suspect that the followup with the "healer" will go something like this: "Of course the doctor would tell you to undergo tests. That's how they keep money pumping into the AMA and the pharmaceutical industry."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Glad to know she will get a second opinion

It always gets me when someone who is into alternatives acts this way--it sure isn't the way MY doctor (who is also my boss) operates. But then one can be practicing integrative medicine and have an MD's license. My doc gets referrals all the time from other practitioners, including herbalists and healers. I'm surprised that your friend's healer hasn't given her a referral.

[dorkulon]

7. "very smart woman but she has utter faith in this person"

Choose one, can't be both.

[cali]

12. sure it can be. Smart- even brilliant people- can believe stupid shit.

I've always been aware of that.

[Orrex]

14. Not true at all--that's needlessly insulting

Smart people make bad decisions all the time, because they are human and fallible. Any number of factors might contribute to this woman's decision to pursue "alternative" "medical" treatments, and none of them means that she isn't smart.

She could be driven by financial reasons (many alternative treatments are inexpensive, even if they don't work). She could be driven by fear or hopelessness or trust or ignorance or a host of other motivations. A lack of intelligence is not necessarily a factor.

It would be better for us to offer correct information rather than attack her in her anxiety and desperation.

[dorkulon]

19. It's overstating to say "none of them

means she isn't smart." Maybe I'm being harsh, but not being smart seems to me to be a primary reason people go in for this stuff. There is inevitably an existing body of scientific evidence debunking these "alternative" treatments, but some people simply do not care and choose to believe whatever they want to. People who choose to believe what they want regardless of the evidence are in my book, not smart.

[cali]

25. There are many kinds of intelligence. My friend is definitely a very bright person

Would you, for example, call Aldous Huxley, stupid? He was into all kinds of mystical stuff. I know that for a fact- he was a good friend of my dad's and had my horoscope done when I was born.

[dorkulon]

38. Of course you're right

Smart people can believe stupid things; it happens all the time. But it isn't very smart of them. Aldous Huxley was an excellent writer, but his belief in astrology is still pretty stupid--just my opinion of course.

[Orrex]

26. Linus Pauling went in for this stuff. Was he unintelligent?

Coretta Scott King went in for this stuff. Was she unintelligent?


Have you never made a decision--in any aspect of your life--tainted by desperation or fear or hopelessness, or not in full possession of the facts? If you have not, then you're fortunate and rare. However, if you have made such a decision, are you unintelligent as a result?


Read Shermer's Why Smart People Believe Weird Things, and you'll see that the problem is nowhere near as simple as you'd like it to be.

[dorkulon]

42. Sounds like an interesting read.

I'm being intentionally provocative, of course. It does bother me when I see people who seem intelligent buy into obvious myths, so maybe I have a bit of an ax to grind about this. But no, I have never let desperation delude me, except the occasional useless prayer-ish utterance ("God please don't let this truck hit me," that sort of thing, said as a reflexive attempt to control the uncontrollable).

Maybe my problem is that I've never really understood how people come to truly believe things that they find comforting, solely for that reason. Maybe I'm even a little jealous of that ability, which I don't seem to share with the rest of my species. I wouldn't mind believing in heaven; it sounds kind of nice. But I just can't.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

53. Right on

Smart people do have a tendency to out think themselves.

[meegbear]

8. Get a second opinion ...

from a thing called a "medical professional".

[Jeep789]

10. Not really surprising

There are people in every industry attempting to steal our money and the government has been protecting these "free market entrepreneurs" for years now.

[baldguy]

11. With such a diagnoses, she should be a second opinion.

It doesn't matter if her healer is Theodoric of York bleeding her with leeches & feeding her rotten tree bark, or a department head at the Mayo Clinic with the best 21st medicine. She should get a second opinion.

[zipplewrath]

28. Absolutely

Such dire diagnosis would require a second evaluation. Put it to her this way. What if her healer is being generous and she only has 3 months? The most common medical problem is misdiagnosis and/or wrong treatment plan. I'm sure it is as true of healers as it is of doctors.

[hobbit709]

13. Airhead 101 thinking

We have a neighbor like that. Scared of REAL doctors but believes anything one of her quacks tells her.

[bluescribbler]

16. What is the precise "diagnosis"?

What tests led this person to make this "diagnosis? Are these tests verifiable? Can you find this "practitioner" or her techniques on this site? Does your friend trust your judgment?

[cali]

20. I have no idea. it all sounded like garbage to me

yes, my friend trust my judgment, but she also trusts this "healer". It's kind of a touchy situation. I'm just encouraging her to go see her primary care doc.

[SidDithers]

18. A second opinion is never a bad thing...

especially if you've been told you're going to die in 6 months. Tell her that if her mechanic said her car needed a new engine, would she take his word, or get a second opinion? And doesn't she think her life is a bit more important than a car engine?

Sid

[L. Coyote]

24. "she'll die within 6 months if she doesn't do this and that."

What is the "this and that"?

[cali]

29. follow a strict dietary regimen, take certain supplements

I'm not entirely clear on what exactly.

[L. Coyote]

47. Been there. I had to change my life to avoid health dangers.

Maybe there is some validity. I would discuss the situation in greater detail and allow her to do the thinking in relation to the facts. Objective discourse may be the best tool you have.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

51. But does your friend have some specific symptom of something?

Cancer?

People don't drop dead in six months because of what they eat. It can be fast, it can be slow, but anyone who puts timetables on the rate of deterioration from poor nutrition is full of crap.

[MilesColtrane]

67. "This and that" is probably an extended regimen of cash infusions into the "healer's" bank account.

[ohheckyeah]

27. I'm hearing from more and more people how they are

turning to alternative medicine and I think it's because of how medicine is practiced today. One is lucky to get 15 minutes with a doctor, after which one is handed the latest drug the sales rep left with the doctor's office and then find out a couple of years later that drug is killing people. Doctor's offices are often cold and impersonal and people feel like cattle being herded through so they turn to practitioners of all kinds of alternatives therapies and I believe it's mainly because they get time and attention from them.

I have a friend who has a chiropractor diagnosis her over the phone because he can "feel" what's wrong with her body by talking to her. He prescribes her all kinds of supplements and she buys into it and spends her money doing kidney flushes and bladder flushes and liver flushes with the supplements he sells her. The only thing getting flushed is her money out of her wallet.

I've not had a lot of good experiences with doctors and medicine and don't run to a doctor unless I'm really, really sick, but when I'm sick I want medicine and not voodoo.

[enough]

34. Abosolutely right, a lot of this is generated by "how medicine is practiced today."

People are looking for some momentary human connection with the medical practitioner, which these days is rare indeed. Most doctors are operating just as functionaries for the insurance companies and drug companies. I think honest doctors must be almost ashamed of the way their profession has been shackled.

[cali]

36. well, that's not the case here.

this is a country town with a fantastic medical clinic. Docs take time with their patients. There's nothing cold and impersonal about my friend's primary care doc who is also her next door neighbor and friend. I'm not sure why my friend is so drawn to this stuff, but she really is.

[ohheckyeah]

57. It's hard to tell what her particular draw is.

Is she a person who just likes to be different?

[zipplewrath]

39. Drug dispensers

They are becoming like auto mechanics. There was a time a mechanic might suspect there was something wrong with your master cylinder. He'd remove it, inspect it, and determine if there was something wrong. He might replace a seal, he might just clean it up, or replace fluid. Now, he just pulls the master cylinder (if the diagnostic computer told him to) and replaces it. If your problem goes away, the presumption is that the problem was the master cylinder, even if it just needed to be cleaned, or have the fluid topped off (which will get done as part of replacing the master cylinder).

Doctors have gotten to be the same way. Give 'em a pill and see if the symptoms go away. Tests cost them money, pills cost YOU money. Even with in the profession there are stuggles because a doctor can "give you a pill" or he can tell you to lose 40 pounds and get some exercise. Which is the "right" thing to do?

[customerserviceguy]

45. I agree totally with your analysis

and no amount of government option or even single payer is going to make these hucksters go away, in fact, I'll bet they see their businesses thrive even more if we ever do get to single payer.

Some people just need handholding, and there will always be somebody out there to sell it to them for a price. Whether it's a snake oil salesman, a telephone-diagnosing chiropractor, or a faith healer in a church, some folks just want to hear that old ancient witch doctor's rattle.

[ohheckyeah]

58. Absolutely.

This same friend of mine goes to a counselor who is into all kinds of therapies I've never heard of and can't find any information on. But, she gets attention and time for the counselor.

[L. Coyote]

59. Doctors took $6,000 out of my pocket very fast, and I got nothing in return.

After they emptied my pockets, the doctor recommended an across the counter drug. It worked.

[ohheckyeah]

60. I can relate to that.

Sorry you had to go through that. It's very disheartening.

[kikiek]

30. Difficult situation. Kind of reminds me of Cheney's techniques. Tapping into people's psych

to get them to do what they want using fear. I guess there isn't much you can do. If I were really close to this person I would not stop trying to talk sense into them. If I wasn't, maybe not so much. Sounds like your friend might only hear what they want to hear. If you can't make a difference don't drive yourself crazy trying to.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

31. Well, she should get a second opinion

and if she's into alternative therapies, have her check out the American Holistic Medical Association website. They have a feature called "Find a Doctor" she could use to find someone in her area.

If there is hope for this person, another physician should be able to tell her.

[Mopar151]

32. Does your friend understand homeopathy?

<http://www.vithoulkas.com/content/view/42/54/lang,en/>

Is a link to a homeopathic website, describing the "science" of homeopathy - you will notice that most scientifically minded folks would conclued, from this evidence alone, that it's a scam!

the website <http://www.randi.org/site/> is a wonderful resource for skeptics, and a treasure trove of examples of the evolution of man gone quazy....

[LaurenG]

35. Totally irresponsible

I can't stand all or nothing bs. Your friend needs to see an MD asap.

[Dorian Gray]

37. What the heck is she claiming

is going to kill your friend within six months.

Encourage your friend to get herself to a regular old MD. If she wants to keep seeing her alternate health healer, good for her. (I go to one... sort of... she an acupuncturist, but she dabbles in herbal medications..) She is not my primary course of action for serious ailments. I use her in conjunction (for fertility issues... on top of fertility treatments from fertility specialists at our local hospital) with doctors, not in lieu of.

[eShirl]

41. I wouldn't trust any alternative healer who specifically tells someone they have 6 months to live

unless they do xyz. She sounds just like a quack to me, I don't care how many degrees she has from where. I would also question whether any non-doctor is legally qualified to make a medical diagnosis such as that.

And any non-quack would encourage, or at least not object to your friend seeking a second opinion from a medical doctor.

[BlooInBloo]

43. "alternative healer" - All alternative, no heal. Fuck them.

[conscious evolution]

44. Your freind sounds like she is being scammed

Have her get a second opinion.From a regular MD

Also have her get a second opinion from another alt practitioner.A diffferent diagnosis from another woo may be what she needs to break the hold of the first one.

[WeDidIt]

46. If it ducks like a quack...n/t

[MineralMan]

48. Well, the good news is that she's probably OK.

If she does "this and that," she probably won't die in six months, and there will be another testimonial for her "practicioner." If she didn't do "this and that," she'd probably still be alive in six months, and her "practicioner" knows that, too.

Still, just on the off chance that her "practicioner" is a true quack, who really believes he can cure terminal illnesses, encourage her to take her symptoms, whatever they are, to an MD and get him to check her out.

That just makes good sense. If her MD says there's nothing serious wrong with her, then going to the "practicioner" probably won't cause her any harm.

[Stevenmarc]

49. Dr. 1-800-Flowers doesn't sound much better than a storefront fortune teller

Your friend is only going to hear what she wants to hear but I would bring the story to your local attorney general and let them investigate.

[Terran]

50. what is she allegedly going to die OF?

There must be a diagnosis or sorts, right?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

52. Sounds like this bullshit Robin Quivers is into

She claimed on 60 Minutes she'd be dead too without enemas, colonics and crazy drinks.

[Mika]

54. After reading responses, 1 comment (ok, 2 comments)..

Who knew DU had so damn many medical "experts".

Should be an Ask Dr DU forum, maybe Skinner will start one up for y'all.

[alarimer]

55. Total quack.

Your friend should see a real doctor. At the very least, it is more likely that actual medicine will cure whatever ails her (if anything) than quackery.

[Mika]

61. So pill pushers are not quacks?

At the very least, it is more likely that actual medicine will cure whatever ails her (if anything) than quackery.

This is your expert advice? Based on what? A guess?

Quack quack.

---

[dorkulon]

66. Based on peer reviewed science. Homeopathy is worse than a guess.

[Cleita]

63. There is a law about practicing medicine without a license.

If she crosses into that area you can report her to the State Medical Board. http://www.medbd.ca.gov/

Whether they will do something right away, with all of the budget cuts Arnold is wielding with his machete, I don't know.

[proteus_lives]

69. Snake-oil salesman.

Your friend needs real help.