If the man who murdered Dr. Tiller was so sure of himself, why did he run away?

[MichiganVote]

Chicken shit assholes

[lpbk2713]

1. He was in a hurry to find a phone.

So he could tell Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly et al "mission accomplished".

[MichiganVote]

4. Oh this will feed the TV moralists for weeks

[malaise]

5. True he had a post-it with Operation Rescue's phone number

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5756877&mesg_id=5756877

[MichiganVote]

7. 1-800-Assholes

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. So much for doing God's work, right?

I mean, he was even brave enough to do it in God's house, so why didn't he stick around and take a bow?

Lacking the courage of his convictions, perhaps?

How the fuck can people like us ever get into the head of a flaming asswipe like this guy? We can't, and even to try is just a fucking waste of time. I'm so tired of these wicked, wicked people and their fucking righteous beliefs that seek to trample the legal rights of women, taking the lives of good men along the way.

If you don't want an abortion, DDN'T HAVE ONE.

This murder has me surprisingly upset. It's so patently evil, just evil. Not all things are this black and white. This one is easy.

And so, so tragic. So tragic.

Imagine this - a young woman has an appointment with Dr. Tiller tomorrow. Her health is in danger.

What will happen to her?

[malaise]

9. Great post

They have to be in charge of everybody's life, morals, rights, etc.
They are sick fucks.

[MichiganVote]

11. They want to take away our rights that's what they want to do. If this were gun rights, they

wouldn't dare try.

Reality to right wind nut jobs- Abortion is legal. Deal with it other than killing people.

[Mike 03]

3. Most likely he was a sociopath or delusional person who had some notion he

would be protected by God, or could beat the odds against him being found.

A lot of murderers have a gut feeling they are immune from prosecution.

It is a characteristic of narcissism.

[MichiganVote]

6. People who run away know what they have done is wrong and illegal.

[Mike 03]

14. Yes, exactly.

It shows a consiousness of guilt.

How is that inconsistent with being a sociopath or psychopath?

[MichiganVote]

16. Oh I agree w/you. Sociopaths may not know guilt but they know right from wrong.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. No, not really -

their awareness of what we consider "right" or "wrong" is seen by sociopaths as avenues of opportunity. As in, for instance, which stance will better help them achieve their ends.

They have no inherent sense of right and wrong. That requires a conscience. By definition, sociopaths lack that one thing that makes us human....

[MichiganVote]

28. The lack of a conscience does not mean that an understanding of right and wrong is absent.

Nor does the awareness of self interest as an "opportunity" necessitate the absence of reasoning.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

30. Reasoing ability is unimpaired in a sociopath,

but their byways are different from ours.

They don't process "right" versus "wrong." They process "opportunity" versus "not an opportunity".

They fully understand and are able to exploit the process. They just do it for different reasons than normal people do.

[MichiganVote]

38. Actually I think they do. In terms of a continnum of thought or of the seriousness of

their "thinking" I think that some do hazard into the area of "right" and "wrong". However I agree that the more seriously entrenched socio's barely skirt the surface as it represents a 'moral ground' as opposed to a legal ground. Serious socio's don't "get" morality.

In any case, at this point the guy ran away because he,
1.hoped not to be caught
2.hoped to reach some area of safety
3.felt threatened himself by himself and his actions or by others
4.had the "opportunity" (per sociopathic thinking) of running away
5.was delusional, heard a voice, was planning to drive to Bill O'Reilly's house for a blessing..whatever

Or my guess....

6.he's a sick coward who had created this moral 'act of courage' by piecing together the readily available rationalizations put forth for he and others of the extremist anti-free choice crowd and acted on them. With a probable boatload of pathology in his background.

Either way, a jury with integrity will have to weigh his actions and deliver justice--another dubious area of understanding.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. More than anything,

your (3) would click with the sociopath diagnosis.

But, I don't think he's a sociopath.

I think he's a simple, angry misogynist. Weird mother, strained early family life. Found a "home" in the anti-choice movement after a lifetime of being rejected by women. His sexual experiences were disastrous, and it's entirely possible a woman did a number on his head when he was unable to perform or performed badly - can you say "premature ejaculation"?

Something in his past taught him to demonize women, and what women deserve the most enmity? BAD MOTHERS! Mothers who don't want their children - he's the aborted fetus, he's the disappointing child, he's the kid who wasn't wanted.

I'll wager he's not married, has no children. No close ties with anyone except the anti-choice people. That's where he finds his identity, and, cloaked as it is in religious overtones, his lack of intimacy with a member of the opposite sex, or even of the same sex - not likely, not overtly, anyway - wouldn't draw any attention.

"The greater good" is the perfect cover for someone as maladjusted as this fucker, that's my guess.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to be his attorney ..........................

[MichiganVote]

43. :) Yeah I don't think the guy is a socio either. But his attorney will have to handle the running

away bit and much of that will hinge on what the churchgoers witnessed. Jesus this guy could have taken out a number of other people this morning, including kids.

So do you think he'll talk to the police or will be shut up and call an attorney?

Also I read that the US Marshall has called in a full scale plan to limit the possibility of copy cats.

Interesting, I was in Lawrence Kan. about a week ago and while in an ice cream shop one of our crowd made a crack about Kansas and abortion. My sister who lives there became immediately concerned and told everyone to shut up and not make any public comments for fear of a confrontation with someone. Just what the hell is going in Kansas these days?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. How's THAT for scary?

I trust your sister isn't an alarmist, so her comment is probably very well-founded. The events of today suggest she had good reason to be alarmed.

This is America, and one group has so affected other good Americans that it's considered provocative to make an idle joke in an ice cream shop in a fairly hip town like Lawrence (I once lived in KC MO).

There won't be any copycats, but have you seen the precautions abortion providers have to take because of these pricks?

The police are treating him with kid gloves, believe me. They don't want anything to go wrong with someone so high profile. He's in isolation, he's on suicide watch, and he's been advised that he can speak with an attorney, the Supreme Court's decision last week notwithstanding.

I like to think of myself as non-violent. That is, I used to think of myself as non-violent. I don't, not anymore. Gladly would I do physical harm to any of these Operation Rescue fuckers if I thought it would end anything.

When was the last time we heard about violent attacks on anti--choice people?

Yeah, exactly ..........................

[MichiganVote]

45. No she's not an alarmist and I was momentarily confounded by her reaction. She was seriously freaked

anyone had made a public comment that was pretty mild by non Kansas standards. And she is the queen of sarcasm so it perplexed me at the time. I even asked her if she was serious and she said yes. So I let it go at the time thinking, well it is Kansas afterall. Although I haven't spoken with her about this latest crime event I'm sure she would tell me that she was issuing a very serious warning to us at the table.

Imagine--an ice cream shop and the very word abortion is enough to tune in God knows who or what. Freaky. So now it doesn't surprise me that the US Marshall is taking steps to safeguard the population. I only hope they don't just go away too soon. There surely seems to be a core cabal of some really sick fuck's in Kansas and elsewhere too.

I don't feel violent toward these people. But I am very, very outraged that anyone would condone this crime for anything having to do with Dr. Tiller. That is seriously sick and a threat to everyone.

I agree that Operation Rescue is a terrorist outfit. They fit the profile.

[Mike 03]

34. Yes, I agree. Sociopaths know right from wrong.

They are very different from individuals who are schizophrenic or suffer from other mental illnesses.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

36. Again,

the concepts of "right" and "wrong" are alien to sociopaths.

Schizophrenia is an organic illness, not comparable to a pathology like sociopathy. There are many gradations of "mental illness." None are comparable to any others, at least in my experience.

They process the concepts in a whole different way. It's awfully hard to grasp because we're normal people, so it's sort of like a man trying to imagine childbirth or a woman trying to imagine what it feels like to have an erection.

We lack the tools to accomplish those things, just as we lack the flawed wiring the sociopath possesses.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. Sociopaths/psychopaths

are one and the same - different terms, that's all, although some practitioners maintain there is a difference in the origins of this pathology, but they're rare and rather rarified.

Sociopaths - the currently popular term - are defined by their inability to experience guilt, remorse, or empathy.

In short, they are without a conscience.

This guy is no sociopath.................

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. Or,

he was a man with a bad history of rejection by women, starting with his mother.

I'll wager he's unmarried, without children, and no Significant Other in the picture.

These men are simply misogynists.

No need to go further than that in diagnosing them. They're narcissists, sure, but that's a defining characteristic of anyone who truly believes he or she has "a personal relationship with God". That kind of belief that they're so very special is one of the defining aspects of narcissism.

That's the least of their pathologies.

Watch. Watch this fucker's biography as it comes to light. Mark my words.....................

[MichiganVote]

18. Bet he needed somebody's approval. Now he gets to be immortal and the poor Dr. get to be dead.

And in a fucking church no less. How truly sad for his family. This just falls in the unforgivable lane for me.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

25. This stuff usually rolls off my back -

this is feeling a whole lot like June 5, 1968.

I haven't felt that way since. Not through the deaths of loved ones. Not through 9/11.

This is all different. I'm not yet sure why.....................

[MichiganVote]

29. Perhaps because they shot the guy in what he considered his very own spiritual home.

That is the lowest of the low as far as I'm concerned.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. There's more to it than that -

I was shocked when I first learned of the murder, yeah.

But then I learned more about George Tiller, and then the whole of the incident came down on me.

As an officer of the court, I take to heart the people who follow the law. George Tiller was operating under the full protection of our laws. He was not doing anything wrong. In fact, it would appear that everything this blessed man ever did in his life was right.

Have you seen the post at dailykos.com by a woman who knew him?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/5/31/737320/-The-George-Tiller-I-Knew

You can't read that and be the same afterwards. At least, I couldn't.

This murder touches something inside me. I don't know what it is. Maybe because so many of my friends, and I, were able to have safe abortions thanks to Roe v. Wade and good physicians like George Tiller. Maybe because I've always known that my daughters, and now my granddaughters, would have the protection of that good Supreme Court decision, the law of our land.

That someone - anyone - can voluntarily violate our law, a man's personal freedom, because, legally insane or not, the shooter believes that he is doing God's work means we are harboring our very own Al Qaeda right here in the United States, and something - I am a great believer in the First Amendment - but something has to be done to stop these people.

Something. I don't know what. But something.

I am now fighting back tears.

I'm not like that, not normally. This is all different ....................................

[MichiganVote]

39. Yeah, this is bad. It reminds me of the time in history when the four little girls were bombed in

the church down south. Some places should be inviolate and some people should be also. But with all this crap in pharmacies and so on, it makes people want to give up on the reality of legal free choice. And that would be so wrong for so many, many reasons.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

41. Yeah, Birmingham -

I remember that, but I wasn't much older than those murdered little girls.

You may be right - that it happened in a church, of all places, shocks the senses in every way.

Now, more than ever, we cannot back down. I raised my girls to be active in Planned Parenthood and other women's rights organizations. They'll teach their girls, and I can rest now.

But, my checkbook stays open, and, tomorrow, checks go out to a variety of pro-choice organizations, and, if I can find it, whatever fund will be established to memorialize the glorious life and work of George Tiller ...........................

[MichiganVote]

42. Same here.

[Mike 03]

20. Very intelligent post.

You sound like someone who may have experience with respect to the behavioral sciences unit in the FBI.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

26. I sound like a clinician,

which is what I am. Doctorate in clinical psych.

Makes people-watching fun ...............

[MadMaddie]

8. Oh don't you know , that's what the Reich Wing cowards do

I am surprised he didn't kill himself. Let's see who pays for his legal defense that should tell us a lot.

[MichiganVote]

13. He killed a good man and we get to pay through the ass for a bad man.

[MadMaddie]

19. It's sick isn't it?

[MichiganVote]

23. Heart-sick. Why can't people just learn to let other people live and let live.

I am firmly anti-anti-abortionists now. This is wrong on so many fronts it defies logic.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

35. This is the final proof positive -

they are NOT "pro-life".

They are anti-choice.

They are anti-life.

[malaise]

21. Terry Randall?

Fuckabee?

[MichiganVote]

32. Probably jealous he didn't do it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. Now that fucker is gonna get even more publicity -

Just what he wants, just what he loves.

I am having a really hard time with my love for the First Amendment tonight. A hard, hard time..............................

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. What?

And miss the adulation? The adoration? The veneration?

Yeah, that's what's going on in his head. He fucking actually thinks he's a hero.

He's a hero to the people whose respect he craves, whose idol he wants to be.

For him, all of it now is simple persecution.

See?

Now, he is the victim .........................

[Skittles]

10. he's a fucking coward

[MichiganVote]

12. Totally agree. So much for moral bravery.

[Mike 03]

24. Kick and recommend. NT

[Control-Z]

31. It creates more attention.

He didn't want his 15 minutes to end in 5?