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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 02:06 PM
Original message
Godwin's Law is Irrelevant
At the risk of bleeding from another thread, I thought I'd take this on

A DU poster made a very valid point, that we use Godwins Law anytime anyone even mentions Nazis or Hitler. Just because you mention Hitler, doesn't mean you have lost the argument.

When you're actually talking about Nazi rhetoric as contrasted and compared to modern political events and rhetoric, Godwin's Law does not apply.

And yes, this is correct.

Let's talk Darfur. That's plain old Genocide, Nazi Style. But if I compare it as such, some fuckwad will immediately spew (with glee I might add) "Godwin's Law! Godwin's Law!!" as if the mere mention of Nazis made all previous statements untrue.

Isn't this a bit like taking the logic behind Godwin's Law and doing the same damn thing?

Anyway, let's stop freaking out every time someone mentions Nazis. Sometimes they are right, and the comparison is apt.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nice post, Hitler
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. LOL - I was trying to be Kitler
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Not Hister, of paranoid quatrain fame?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Kitler is cute
:)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I'll show you Hitler with a nice post
OUCH!! I'll bet that hurts.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nice try. The Nazis did the same thing.
:hi:

K&R
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Godwin's Law is not without exceptions.
But people who, say, call Bush a Nazi because Bush used propaganda too and then insist he's a literal Nazi because he was a Bonesman and his grandfather (along with about 10,000 other investment capitalists in the 30s) held stock in German companies longer than he should have, is demonstrating the addictive nature of the Nazi comparison which makes Godwin's Law necessary.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. You need to read a bit more on old Prescott. He was far more invested and guilty
than "about 10,000 other investment capitalists in the 30s".


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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thank you,
Wonderful illustration of my thesis.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives...

...the new documents, many of which were only declassified last year, show that even after America had entered the war and when there was already significant information about the Nazis' plans and policies, he worked for and profited from companies closely involved with the very German businesses that financed Hitler's rise to power.

While there is no suggestion that Prescott Bush was sympathetic to the Nazi cause, the documents reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman (BBH), acted as a US base for the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler in the 1930s before falling out with him at the end of the decade.

The Guardian has seen evidence that shows Bush was the director of the New York-based Union Banking Corporation (UBC) that represented Thyssen's US interests and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war.

Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.

Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands.

More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz. The ownership of CSSC changed hands several times in the 1930s, but documents from the US National Archive declassified last year link Bush to CSSC, although it is not clear if he and UBC were still involved in the company when Thyssen's American assets were seized in 1942...

By the late 1930s, Brown Brothers Harriman, which claimed to be the world's largest private investment bank, and UBC had bought and shipped millions of dollars of gold, fuel, steel, coal and US treasury bonds to Germany, both feeding and financing Hitler's build-up to war.

There was nothing illegal in doing business with the Thyssens throughout the 1930s... everything changed after Germany invaded Poland in 1939. Even then it could be argued that BBH was within its rights continuing business relations with the Thyssens until the end of 1941 as the US was still technically neutral until the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The trouble started on July 30 1942 when the New York Herald-Tribune ran an article entitled "Hitler's Angel Has $3m in US Bank". UBC's huge gold purchases had raised suspicions that the bank was in fact a "secret nest egg" hidden in New York for Thyssen and other Nazi bigwigs. The Alien Property Commission (APC) launched an investigation.

There is no dispute over the fact that the US government seized a string of assets controlled by BBH - including UBC and SAC - in the autumn of 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy act. What is in dispute is if Harriman, Walker and Bush did more than own these companies on paper.

...Jones recommended that the assets be liquidated for the benefit of the government, but instead UBC was maintained intact and eventually returned to the American shareholders after the war. Some claim that Bush sold his share in UBC after the war for $1.5m - a huge amount of money at the time - but there is no documentary evidence to support this claim. No further action was ever taken nor was the investigation continued, despite the fact UBC was caught red-handed operating a American shell company for the Thyssen family eight months after America had entered the war and that this was the bank that had partly financed Hitler's rise to power.

The most tantalising part of the story remains shrouded in mystery: the connection, if any, between Prescott Bush, Thyssen, Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC) and Auschwitz.

Thyssen's partner in United Steel Works, which had coal mines and steel plants across the region, was Friedrich Flick, another steel magnate who also owned part of IG Farben, the powerful German chemical company.

Flick's plants in Poland made heavy use of slave labour from the concentration camps in Poland. According to a New York Times article published in March 18 1934 Flick owned two-thirds of CSSC while "American interests" held the rest.

The US National Archive documents show that BBH's involvement with CSSC was more than simply holding the shares in the mid-1930s. Bush's friend and fellow "bonesman" Knight Woolley, another partner at BBH, wrote to Averill Harriman in January 1933 after the Poles started their drive to nationalise the plant.

"The Consolidated Silesian Steel Company situation has become increasingly complicated, and I have accordingly brought in Sullivan and Cromwell, in order to be sure that our interests are protected," wrote Knight. "After studying the situation Foster Dulles is insisting that their man in Berlin get into the picture and obtain the information which the directors here should have. You will recall that Foster is a director and he is particularly anxious to be certain that there is no liability attaching to the American directors."

..."You can't blame Bush for what his grandfather did any more than you can blame Jack Kennedy for what his father did - bought Nazi stocks - but what is important is the cover-up, how it could have gone on so successfully for half a century, and does that have implications for us today?" he said.

"This was the mechanism by which Hitler was funded to come to power, this was the mechanism by which the Third Reich's defence industry was re-armed, this was the mechanism by which Nazi profits were repatriated back to the American owners, this was the mechanism by which investigations into the financial laundering of the Third Reich were blunted," said Loftus, who is vice-chairman of the Holocaust Museum in St Petersburg.

"The Union Banking Corporation was a holding company for the Nazis, for Fritz Thyssen," said Loftus. "At various times, the Bush family has tried to spin it, saying they were owned by a Dutch bank and it wasn't until the Nazis took over Holland that they realised that now the Nazis controlled the apparent company and that is why the Bush supporters claim when the war was over they got their money back. Both the American treasury investigations and the intelligence investigations in Europe completely bely that, it's absolute horseshit. They always knew who the ultimate beneficiaries were."

"There is no one left alive who could be prosecuted but they did get away with it," said Loftus. "As a former federal prosecutor, I would make a case for Prescott Bush, his father-in-law (George Walker) and Averill Harriman for giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They remained on the boards of these companies knowing that they were of financial benefit to the nation of Germany."

Loftus said Prescott Bush must have been aware of what was happening in Germany at the time. "My take on him was that he was a not terribly successful in-law who did what Herbert Walker told him to. Walker and Harriman were the two evil geniuses, they didn't care about the Nazis any more than they cared about their investments with the Bolsheviks."

What is also at issue is how much money Bush made from his involvement. His supporters suggest that he had one token share. Loftus disputes this, citing sources in "the banking and intelligence communities" and suggesting that the Bush family, through George Herbert Walker and Prescott, got $1.5m out of the involvement. There is, however, no paper trail to this sum.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar




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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Zzzzz
*snort* huh- wha-?

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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Hitler you say? n/t
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
7. The very reason I've never compared campaign styles of Republicans and Nazis
There are remarkable similarities to what I see as Republican campaign strategy and what I have learned of nazi campaign strategy, if that is what you'd call it.

Both are more or less constant with what we normally think of as the election-season spin machine in constant-noise mode. The other thing is that its very hard to nail down just what the party is for. Its just an interesting thing to know but the kiss of death to mention.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. You're nothing but a dirty no-good 'net Nazi
:nuke:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. So can anybody make up a law now?
When was Godwin's "Law" ratified? If anybody can make up a law here's mine:

Glitch's Law: The sooner people cite Godwin's Law when discussing the topic of how fascist our government is becoming the more relevant the discussion.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. Godwin's Law is PREDICTIVE ... NOT proscriptive!
That's the first and foremost facet that must be comprehended. There is no "penalty" when Godwin's Law accurately describes an event, no more than when Bernoulli's Law describes how an airplane flies.

Good grief! :banghead:
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. edited
Edited on Fri May-29-09 08:50 PM by HCE SuiGeneris
for too much wine...

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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. Besides, Godwin's Law has nothing to do with losing arguments
All it says is that as a discussion goes on, the odds of Hitler or the Nazis being invoked, in any context, increases.

That said, people do overuse them for comparisons, just not all the time.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. The last thing we should forget
Edited on Sat May-30-09 05:36 AM by Enthusiast
is the lesson of 20th century Germany. Shouting Godwin's Law is a way to stop the discussion.
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
19. There is nothing wrong with comparing the third reich to republicans
But it becomes questionable when you say that the republicans are the modern version of the nazis. They have, at this point, accomplished so little evil in comparison to the nazi party.

I agree in using comparisons as a cautionary tale. But if one is attempting to eternally damn the republican party by saying it is just like the nazi party, that is ludicrous and ill willed.

The point is to be constructive and helpful. When we resort to unintelligible hateful rhetoric, we fall into the mindset of the conservative.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
20. Godwin's Law just says the probability of Hitler being mentioned approaches 1
There is a corollary that whoever mentions Hitler loses, but that's not part of the law, nor is it as universally accepted.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. But the "Say Hitler and you lose" adage has BECOME the law
Just ask around
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