Gay pilot says he is in for the battle of his life; disappointed in Obama

[Bluebear]

Poutrage! This guy who is being discharged wants everything RIGHT NOW!!!!!1

Two months away from retirement: now will lose whole pension.

====



BOISE - His entire 18 year professional career has been in the U.S. Air Force, most recently stationed in Mountain Home.

But now, Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach is being discharged for homosexual conduct.

Speaking only to CBS 2 Eyewitness News, Fehrenbach says he's gone through every single emotion imaginable, saying that being kicked out of the military has been "utterly devastating."

"I played by the rules," he said. "I did my part. I kept my private life private. Again, this wasn't voluntary. I didn't come out and challenge the law. In some ways the law challenged me."...


He says he's disappointed in President Barack Obama for not changing the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy (which he claims is unconstitutional) with a zero discrimination policy.

http://www.2news.tv/news/local/46278087.html

[Neecy]

1. I hear you - vaguely

Not sure what you're protesting about.

[Bluebear]

2. Let me lapse into Armenian for you.

[Neecy]

3. lol

[Mari333]

10. rofl

[Duncan Grant]

17. LMAO!

I hope you know you're only hurting our cause!

:spray:

[HughMoran]

18. That was uncalled for

I think your thread is great and this story infuriates and saddens me, but as an Armenian, I'm not sure I find the reference funny.

[Bluebear]

37. Tell me you're kidding.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mirrera]

133. Love your sig line!

While the millions of his lost and lonely ones
CalI out and clamour to be found
Caught in their struggle for higher positions
And their search for love that sticks around...

Used to play that on my guitar all alone with the incense burning.

[Bluebear]

135. Marvelous!

Glad we could enjoy the tune "together" for a moment here!

[mirrera]

139. sigh...

[Ioo]

42. Is this all you say? Or just working on your post count?

[Bluebear]

43. --

Last night Neecy was repeating was Obama was saying in his tone-deaf way re: His joke in California "I couldn't hear what they were protestting about" or whatever.

[Neecy]

82. it's all our President has to say

I'm wondering how, after reading this story, ANY member of DU can find the "I could hear them - vaguely. Couldn't tell what they were protesting about" an acceptable response, one worth defending so ferociously. I intend to use it whenever there's a story here that deals with injustice and our lack of rights. It shows the complete lack of empathy on the part of our 'fierce advocate'.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. Unfrigging believable.

Two months away from retirement: now will lose whole pension.

:grr:

[msongs]

5. disappointed in a politician? whoo boy is this guy naieve lol nt

[RufusH]

49. So, if Obama were to continue ALL of Bush's policies, you wouldn't be disappointed?

[sailor65]

I'll assume your opening was wordplay

and go from there.....

Here we have a guy 2 years from retirement eligibility, tossed from honorable service, and millions and millions of dollars invested in his training, now all wasted.

I'm among those who don't buy the line that the President has to "Play" this DADT thing right. He's the President and can deal with this right now with a stroke. My service will not spontaneously combust.

[Bluebear]

8. thank you for your service and your support!

[sailor65]

6. Delete - Dupe Hell

[solstice]

7. This is so disheartening. I thought nothing like this would ever happen under Obama.

[Rhiannon12866]

9. K&R. Jesus, I can't believe that this is still going on...

Two steps forward, two steps back... :grr:

[Mari333]

11. knr

[Tim01]

12. It looks like he followed the rules of DADT. I hope he wins this.

It says a civilian turned him in. What was he supposed to do? Go to another country to have a private relationship?

[lapfog_1]

22. The major problem with DADT

is that IF someone makes a complaint, it's as if DADT no longer exists.

Once the military has the complaint (or some overt action by the part of the service member, such as going on national TV and admitting their sexual preference) they will investigate and take action to separate the service member.

If President Obama eliminated DADT, nothing changes EXCEPT that the military tight asses can now launch investigations without either a complaint or overt action).

The LAW needs to be changed to allow gay people to serve openly.

Obama can urge congress to change the law, but can't take any unilateral action to either change it himself (he doesn't act like the dictator Bush) or simply ignore it. Nor can he order the military (and the tight asses in the military) to not follow the law.

But hey, if it makes everyone feel better to blame President Obama... don't let logic stop you.

[shadowknows69]

70. Logic, and the law dictates, that President Obama could suspend these discharges

Until the matter is settled in legislation.

[lapfog_1]

76. And then he is open to charges

of "not following the law" and "preventing the military from following the laws of the United States"...

I think the most he could do would be to order "honorable discharge" and, in the case of someone close to retirement, he could order that time served meets the requirement for a full pension (and the usual promotion of one rank upon retirement).

He could make a statement of support of gays serving openly in the military and ask congress to pass such legislation (but I'm guessing that the spineless congress will do no such thing).

And, worse, is that there is some percentage, probably higher than any of us would like to believe, of "old guard" serving in the top ranks of the military, who think that gays are a major problem. Over the years there has been a concerted effort by Christian fundies to infiltrate the officer corp of the military, especially at places like the Air Force Academy. I would guess that something like 30 to 40 percent of the top brass would threaten to resign if the law was changed. I think it's an empty threat, but I suspect that such a threat exists or has been broadly hinted at. If he calls their bluff and they DO resign, even 10 percent, it would be the effective end of his presidency.

All speculation, granted. But I'm pretty sure it's not that far off.

[donheld]

13. Totally maddening

I hope the guy wins

[Solly Mack]

14. K&R

Just plain dirty

[EFerrari]

15. This is no way to treat a serviceman. Disgusting.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. DADTDP hsa ruined so many lives. n/t

[IntravenousDemilo]

162. I see you've included DP in there.

Why is the "don't pursue" part of it always ignored? And what part of "don't pursue" do they not understand?

[Duncan Grant]

19. When will there be justice for LGBT Americans?

The silence of the Obama administration is starting to sound a lot like complicity.

[kevinbgoode]

20. President "Separate but Equal" Obama has so many more important

things to do than address the disgraceful treatment of a servicemember by his country.

[Skittles]

47. it is a fucking disgrace

[yodoobo]

21. I see more "dissapointed with Obama" posts here than on right wing sites

this is really getting frustrating.

Obama has only been in office a little over 100 days, and sites like DU are tearing him to shreds.

Obama will take care of folks like this young man, but it will take time.

The reason that this man was kicked out of the military has nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with Presidents like George Bush, who for 8 years allowed this practice to continue.

Why are we criticizing Obama for 110 days, and ignoring Bush's 2,960 days?

In he meantime, its critical that we support our Obama and have faith in him. To do otherwise only undermines him and us.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I see more "shut up and wait for your rights" posts here than should be at a site...

...which is supposed to promote equality for ALL people, even us throw-away gays.

"In he meantime, its critical that we support our Obama and have faith in him. To do otherwise only undermines him and us."

:rofl: and a little :eyes: and definately a whole lot of :crazy:

[yodoobo]

25. Those are wrong too.

But what will trashing Obama get us?

A: Another right wing President who will only set rights even further back.


Eating our young will not get us there.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Trashing? Sorry, your propaganda aside, being critical of his...

...INACTION is not "trashing" him.

But what will making excuses for Obama get us?

A: A band of zombies who blink in unison.

Refusing to hold politicians accountable will lead us to fascism.

[yodoobo]

27. Propaganda?

Supporting President Obama is propaganda??????

I better check my URL tag because that is not the sound of liberal thoughts

Surely you forgot your sarcasm tag.

The charges of inaction are baseless. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors and for Gods sake hes only been there a very short time.

Should we hold him accountable? ABSOLUTELY.

But trashing OUR President in the dawn of his Presidency will only create a self fulling prophecy of failure. We had enough failure for 8 years, why on Earth would we want to manufacture more of it?

We must ask ourselves. If we don't stand behind our President, then why would he stand behind us?

I know you mean well and your intentions are honorable. But we MUST support him, otherwise there is no hope for any of us.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Yes, propaganda, no sarcam tag needed as none was used.

"Supporting President Obama is propaganda??????"

Nope. But, this is:

The reason that this man was kicked out of the military has nothing to do with Obama,...

Why are we criticizing Obama for 110 days, and ignoring Bush's 2,960 days?

In he meantime, its critical that we support our Obama and have faith in him. To do otherwise only undermines him and us.

But what will trashing Obama get us?

A: Another right wing President who will only set rights even further back.

Eating our young will not get us there.

You believe that supporting President Obama will lead to fascism?

No, and said nothing of the sort. Try reading my statement again, this time for what is there.

The charges of inaction are baseless.

Really? So you have list of his accomplishments as they relate to GLBT people? Please, do share, we will all enjoy those!

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors and for Gods sake hes only been there a very short time.

Excuses and irrelevant.

Should we hold him accountable? ABSOLUTELY.

Which is EXACTLY what many of us are doing, and not just the gays.

But trashing OUR President in the dawn of his Presidency will only create a self fulling prophecy of failure. We had enough failure for 8 years, why on Earth would we want to manufacture more of it?

We must ask ourselves. If we don't stand behind our President, then why would he stand behind us?

More mindless propaganda and WE DID stand behind him, it is WHY he is president! NOW, it is HIS TURN to stand behind us!

[FedUp_Queer]

151. I have to agree with my fellow LGBT-ers here...

Yes, I agree that it's hard to be too upset so soon. However, that being said, the notion that we GLBT folks have to just wait and be patient is really becoming old. Patient though I may be, I will NEVER let anyone forget that what we are wanting is absolutely fundamental. I feel we have been patient long enough. I don't care who it is or when it is, I will push and push and push for my rights. As a person who has had to endure the frustrations and hardships of being in a 9-year relationship with someone who is a foreign national, I'm not going to be patient any more. For 9 years, I have had to deal daily with the fact that we can't marry; that even if we could I could not sponsor him as my spouse for immigration purposes; that I have no protections at the federal level; and the uncertainties that go along with the whole immigration conundrum. I'm lucky in that he is here completely legally, as a student, and has been in school the entire time. HOWEVER, to feel a thumb in the eye for all that time has made me completely disinclined to "be patient" no matter who the President is. My responsibility is NEVER to "support my President" because he is my President. My responsibility is always and in all places to point out to him or her what he is doing wrong and what he needs to change.

Finally, and to reiterate, we are talking very basic and fundamental issues. We are talking about the very essence of full citizenship as an American. When I have the same responsibilities (taxes, following laws, etc.) but do not have the same rights, by any stretch, I will not be patient...ever, not for me, my GLBT brothers and sisters. While MLK referred to people of color in his famous speech, the sentiments are just as prescient now insofar as GLBT people are concerned:

===============================================================

It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check — a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quick sands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

===============================================================

The season for justice and equality is always now. While I support Obama, I will never, ever, at any time hesitate to push for what is my and my GLBT brothers' and sisters' birthright...equality.

[IntravenousDemilo]

164. "Another right wing President who will only set rights even further back"

So if one criticizes Obama, he's just going to dig in his heels and become right wing?

Somehow that seems distinctly possible, though it would be spiteful.

[Greyhound]

103. Even the most opposed minds can find common ground.

Thank you. This is outrageous, and the fact that this obscenity finds so much support here is disheartening to say the least.
:thumbsup:

[Zodiak]

122. Don't lose heart

Remember that "so much support" amounts most of the time to a dozen or so posters who reinforce each other's opinions with high-fives, cross-postings, and 50+ posts a day.

MOST of DU agrees with the GLBT community, I would wager. We are watching people's lives being destroyed for a bigoted policy and nothing is being done. Something has got to give, and NOW.

[Greyhound]

142. Thanks, I know that is true but it sometimes is depressing to see it.

I also see yet another generation being raised in the tradition of pig-ignorant bigotry and accepted prejudice.

Maybe it was my age, but I swear that we were light years ahead of this in the 70s. I remember adults being chastised, mocked, and ridiculed by other adults for uttering epithets I hear regularly today.

How can a society fall so far backward this quickly?

[Zodiak]

156. When one political party decides to make it a national issue

And happens to have the majority position at the time. Bushco and rushbo have done a hell of a lot of damage to the body politic by coarsening us all.

A lot about the 70s was far more tolerant than nowadays. Archie Bunker used to be made fun of; now he is a role-model for 30% of our population.

And I disagree about raising a new generation of bigots. Polls show that the new crop of kids don't really care about who you love. The bigotry is finally failing to rub off. It's a small comfort with recent news, but it is a light in the darkness.

[Bluebear]

38. We didn't "ignore Bush's 2960 days" if you check what date I joined versus when you arrived.

Please don't embarrass yourself.

[yodoobo]

54. lol. We aren't born on the day we joined DU

You, and I both had opinions long before we found this message board.


How many of our best leaders even have an account here?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. aww poor you. my heart breaks for the posts you see.

[yodoobo]

56. Its not about me. Its about our country.

When you or I attack Obama, we are attacking our country.

Rush Limbaugh may want America and Obama to fail, but I do not.


Clearly, I will not change your mind.

just the same, ask yourself. If you are successful in tearing down this Presidency, what will you have accomplished? Who will thank you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. When you or I attack Obama, we are attacking our country

you know who else used to say that? bush, cheney and rove. nice one.

[QC]

69. Louis XIV said something similar: L'état, c'est moi.

[blue_onyx]

168. Isn't it scary how quickly some of us

became exactly what we despised for the last 8 years?

[Bluebear]

59. 'When you or I attack Obama, we are attacking our country.' - you're nuts.

Sorry, you are.

[Starry Messenger]

64. GMAFB

So when we were criticizing Bush here, we were also "attacking our country"? Because that's where "logic" like yours leads to. Maybe you should stop hanging out on so many right wings sites. They seem to have affected your brain-thingy.

[yodoobo]

66. Bush was never a legitimate president

When I think of America, I do not think of thugs like Bush.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. They seem to have affected your brain-thingy

:rofl: thank you for that!

[Starry Messenger]

78. Heh heh.

I was proud of it. :D You are quite welcome.

[yodoobo]

84. My brain thingy has long been affected :)

Seriously though, I don't mind taking a few barbs.

I took flack from conservative before the election because I support Obama.

Now I take flack from liberals because I support Obama.

go figure.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

85. yes, you are a long suffereing hero. they should hand out awards for internet martyrdom. nt

[yodoobo]

88. As I said, its not about me

I care less if my words on the screen are martyized.

I'm just dismayed at some fair-weathered supporters.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. he is not a hero. he is a politican who is supposed to serve us

when he doesnt, we criticize. its our job. its how people stay engaged. if you want a cheering squad for obama, go hire one.

[yodoobo]

90. I believe he is a Hero for many

And what would be wrong with that?

A few weeks ago I picked up one of my kids at school. As I was walking through the hall I heard another child (about 11 years old) rapping a song about Obama. Clearly he is a hero to that young man.

He is a hero to everyone? Of course not. Certainly not to conservatives, nor apparently some of his former supporters.


I do agree though, we should criticize appropriately, but it should be done fairly. What I'm seeing lately does not pass for fair imo.

[Bluebear]

91. I like how you capitalize Hero, just like one would God.

:crazy:

[yodoobo]

92. ....

Lets just agree to disagree.

[Bluebear]

93. No, go on, when should he go on Mount Rushmore?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

101. 4th of july. nt

[Bluebear]

104. Oh my, they better start a-carvin'.

[Jamastiene]

160. ...

:spray:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

94. lol

[La Lioness Priyanka]

105. an 11 year old is allowed to be ignorant of politics and policy

i am glad that kid has a hero. adults however should be able to quit the hero worshipping and make a tiny bit of effort to understand policies and politics.

[Bluebear]

107. Hello, it's Hero, please.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. tee hee hee

[xocet]

112. Most amazing comment on DU by a non-troll that I have ever read!

"When you or I attack Obama, we are attacking our country."

Wow! Now that is what DU stands for!

:sarcasm: (above)

There is no such thing as a GLBT issue in this case. Everyone involved is human. This is a civil rights issue all the way. It is dumbfounding to find that people in the USA cannot understand and apply the idea of equality to ALL people. It has only been 200+ years....

Obama is wrong not to address this as a civil rights issue. He needs to fix the idiotic DADT policy by getting rid of it along with the military's prohibition on homosexuality.

[Deja Q]

152. +1

[Forkboy]

40. "Why are we criticizing Obama for 110 days, and ignoring Bush's 2,960 days?"

Were you here for the last 8 years? No one ignored anything Bush did and we ripped him a new asshole daily.

Obama has only been in office a little over 100 days, and sites like DU are tearing him to shreds.

How long has to pass in his term before it's ok to want equal rights. 6 months? A year? What? :shrug:

[Bluebear]

53. Leave Obama alone!!!!1

[yodoobo]

60. I assure you, that I have been here longer than 8 years

I remember well Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and now Obama.


If you are asking when I clicked the "register" button on this message board, I suppose you got me. You clicked before I did.


You ask a fair question though. I think that one year or the mid term elections is a fair point to start passing judgment.

Even then, its going to take longer than even 8 years to reverse the damage done by the Bush's.

[Forkboy]

98. I was simply talking about the last 8 years on DU.

We have been brutal on Bush all along here on DU.

I think that one year or the mid term elections is a fair point to start passing judgment.

I wasn't really asking when it's ok to pass judgment. I was asking when it's ok to ask for your civil rights.

its going to take longer than even 8 years to reverse the damage done by the Bush's.

You got that right, sadly. :(

[JVS]

99. Sep 08th 2008 according to your profile. Much shorter than 8 years.

[yodoobo]

102. Thats not my birthday.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

141. You really can't be that confused...

No one thinks you are an 8 year old...

The poster was referring to the last fun filled 8 years with W at the helm.

[muffin1]

45. The point is Obama said he would put an end to this crap,

but he hasn't. He has also shown us many times that he is a master multi-tasker.
A hell of a lot of gay people donated time, money, and gave their votes to him. He needs to stand up for them.

[yodoobo]

61. And I believe that he will

I do not however, believe that Obama is served by having people constantly yell "are we there yet?, are we there yet?"

We'll get there. Obama will get us there and we'll all arrive together.

(Unless of course, this presidency is torn down by his supporters, in which case we'll be waiting A LONG time for another progressive President)

[Bluebear]

62. Well all your "I believe" talk won't help the subject of the story. You just forget about him?

[yodoobo]

65. Not at all.

If you take a look at my original response you'll see that I addressed him.

This young man is an innocent victim of the Bush regime.

Our anger and outrage should be directed at Bush/Cheney and crew.

Not the best hope for our nation in the dawn of his Presidency!!

I was thinking about people like him when I cast my vote for Obama.

I am thinking about him when I defend Obama against his fair-weather supporters who have turned against him.


There are millions and millions of victims of the Bush regime and Obama is working is ass off helping all of them including this young man. It will take more than a few weeks.

If we torpedo Obama's efforts then where does it leave this victim?

[Bluebear]

67. You said Obama would help men "like" him. When?

Your apologies do nothing for the 200 servicemen and women fired since Obama's inauguration for being gay.

[yodoobo]

71. I don't have access to Obama's calendar.

But you know that.

There are other questions we can ask though:

How many have lost their jobs due to the economy?
How many have lost their homes?
How many have been murdered by assault weapons?
How many banks have failed?
How many have been wrong fully jailed?
How many are in prison for victimless crimes?
How many are dying with no healthcare?

The numbers above are in the MILLIONS. These are all difficult problems. And that is just a small fraction of our problems!

These are all problems that this new administration is working on.

My heart goes out to the 200 victims. It really does. My heart goes out to the millions of others (of which I am one myself)

Obama is the best President we have seen in decades. I believe that he will be one of our greatest Presidents in history. His face will be on Mt Rushmore someday.

But lets be reasonable. This is the dawn of one of the greatest administrations. Not the sunset.

I firmly believe that these 200 victims will rescued, as well as the millions of others.

But its not an instant process.

[Bluebear]

81. "His face will be on Mt Rushmore someday." - good God.

[QC]

83. OK, that's got to be parody.

He had me going until then, though.

[yodoobo]

86. What is parody is former supporters turning on him.

Patronize if that makes you feel good I suppose.

Is Obama destined for greatness? I think he is 50% of the way there already.

Students in school will be studying Obama 200 years from now, right alongside Lincoln and Washington.

Will he join other greats on the mountain? That is less certain but I believe it would be fitting.

[IntravenousDemilo]

165. That's not what parody is.

You appear to subscribe to the "great man" theory of history. However, John Marshall said yours is a country of laws, not men. It's very distressing to see politicians, especially presidents, raised to god status, with their likenesses carved into mountainsides. Considering the things one has to do in order to attain the presidency, anyone who does manage to get elected is probably not even of sufficient moral character to hold office, much less be mythologized and put on Mount Rushmore.

[Bluebear]

87. I don't think so - - but what's sad is it is hard to tell anymore.

[konnichi wa]

100. Can I buy some of whatever you're smoking?

I have Paypal...

[JVS]

95. I believe it's about time for him to go ahead and do it, rather than not even be willing to talk...

about it anymore.

[TommyO]

146. And until then, real people suffer and have their lives ruined

because of DADT and DOMA. How many people need to lose their careers, and more while nothing is done to prevent it?

Why should gay people shut up and move to the back of the bus just because you think that we shouldn't expect the President that we worked to elect to hold to the promises he made?

[Skittles]

50. BECAUSE

100 days is plenty of time to stop this fucking nonsense - it is something that can be taken care of very quickly

[Bluebear]

51. "Stop this fucking nonsense" - again, you say it best!

:hug:

[Skittles]

77. I AM SICK OF IT, PT

I served with so many gays and lesbians in the military 32 fucking years ago - WTF - this is just pure plain discrimination, bigotry and violation of basic civil and human rights. IT MUST STOP - NOW. :mad:

[RufusH]

52. It's too damn bad that Obama is so disappointing.

[mike_c]

72. "Obama will take care of folks like this young man, but it will take time. "

You have evidence to support that assertion? Can you point to anyone who he's "taken care of" while they're being discriminated against? Anyone?

[konnichi wa]

96. He couldn't find 30 seconds in any of his many public comments to offer a few words of encouragement

and support? He has give far more time to the first dog's antics. :shrug:

[whopis01]

113. Oh yeah, there is never anything on here crticizing Bush...

Give me a freaking break!

You know what frustrates me? All the posts I see telling other people what they should and should not say.

It isn't enough for you to express your opinion - you have to tell others what they should think and make sure that they don't disagree with you.

For some of us, it isn't about having faith. For some of us it is about working hard every day to make certain that the change we believe in actually occurs.

Does that mean I don't support Obama? Of course it doesn't. Does my supporting Obama mean I believe that he is perfect in every way and any decision he makes must be the right one? Of course it doesn't.

When you say that "The reason this man was kicked out of the military has nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with Presidents like George Bush..." you are missing an important point. And the point is that every president has allowed this to occur since George Washington. Hell, he was kicking gays out of the military before this country even existed. George Bush caused a lot of problems, but this is not one of them. He merely acted like every other president and failed to do anything about it.

So after 200+ years of presidents who do nothing about it, I think some pressure and criticism is warranted. It doesn't matter who the president is - there needs to be pressure upon them to do something about this disgrace.

And the idea that this undermines him is subversive bullshit. Even in the military it is only a minority that oppose allowing homosexuals to serve. Out of those who have knowingly served with a homosexual, 72% said it had no impact or a positive impact on their morale! 72%! That hardly sounds like the 'hot button' topic that people make it out to be.

[Bluenorthwest]

114. How old are you?

I mean, to refer to an 18 year Veteran of three wars as 'this young man'. A man moments from retirement.
Did you read this close enough to see that you are speaking about an officer nearing retirement, not some 'young man' who has time to spend waiting for justice?

[montanto]

116. Why? Because we are frustrated.

We know Bush sucked and was a criminal. Now it looks like he'll get away with it. DADT came along in 1993, I forget who was President then, doesn't matter, but it looks like people are upset that things are not going to change for the better even under a Dem voted in by irate progressives.

[David__77]

131. Obama deserves CRITICAL support - not unbridled adulation.

He has the power to stop this now. That is a fact. And progressives should surely expect that he do so. No one is going to attack lesbian and gay soldiers in war time if he signs an order lifting the policy.

[Deja Q]

154. +2

More, it's around an issue that has lasted longer than Bush - that can't be resolved overnight, for which negative stereotypes still freely travel, and for some of those they are willfully fostered by those who claim they do not wish to be stereotyped.

Sorry to speak in riddles; I'm also trying to avoid a tangential discussion not related to your point, but I'm expecting the usual rants of "replies" too...

[Bluebear]

155. 'that can't be resolved overnight' - Yes it can. Literally. You just refuse to acknowledge that.

[SammyWinstonJack]

161. "faith" is looking a lot like "hope" and "change" lately.

And Obama ISN'T allowing this practice to continue?

Eyes Wide Shut.

[IntravenousDemilo]

163. Lt Col Fehrenbach is hardly a "young man". He was two months away from receiving his pension

after serving his country for 18 years. Obama could very easily reinstate him via presidential order, along with the others who are being similarly mistreated, via presidential order, until such time as the policy is officially abandoned. Time is of the essence here.

[TheWatcher]

170. "We must blindly follow and worship the Football team and not question the coaches decisions."

"Obama will take care of folks like this young man, but it will take time."

And when he doesn't, what will you say then?

Keep being Patient? Sit back and watch the brilliant game of CHESS he's playing?

Don't Ask Don't Tell happened under CLINTON by the way, but I assume you knew that.

Oh, but that makes me a nasty Right Winger for criticizing a former Democratic President's unconstitutional policy. :crazy:

As far as ignoring Bush's 2,960, if anyone has done a good job of ignoring that it has been this administration.

NO ONE from that murderous administration has been held accountable for ANYTHING, there are no plans to do so, and some of their most destructive policies are being CONTINUED.

"I believe, I support, I'm confident, I hope, I have faith....."

Such a "Good American".

[Bluebear]

174. +100

[ecstatic]

23. I think he should be protected... he

followed the unjust rules and still was derailed. That's not right. Choi, on the other hand, took a brave gamble but it was too soon because Obama has always said that the issue has to go through a certain process.

[cboy4]

28. Someone better call a

[armyowalgreens]

29. The truth is that Congress and Obama could draft legislation in a matter of days.

Don't Ask Don't Tell could be gone by the end of next week. But of course Obama has "too much" on his plate.

Please spare me the bullshit. He doesn't care.

[western mass]

36. Absolutely right.

As usual, talk is cheap.

[depakid]

31. The piece is confusing- did he come out, or didn't he?

:shrug:

[armyowalgreens]

32. He came out of the closet after someone brought it to his superiors attention.

[depakid]

33. So someone ratted him out two months before his pension vested

Sounds like THAT'S a person who needs to be expelled from the military. Talk about bad for morale.

[armyowalgreens]

34. It was a civilian.

[Thothmes]

35. Discontent ex-partner?

[Duncan Grant]

41. Or a good single Christian gal who likes country music and pick-up trucks?

We probably shouldn't jump to conclusions about who outed him or why.

[Ilsa]

80. I guess he should have lied? Really, I don't know. My BIL was

dishonorably discharged for something he and his office did, and the worst thing he did for himself was tell the truth. If he had lied or shut up about it, his lawyer could have "fixed" the problem. Of course, it had nothing to do with homosexuality. Anyway, he is a wonderful school teacher now. Loves his job more than the navy.

[madfloridian]

44. He is an impressive guy who does not deserve such treatment.

He was so calm and cool on Rachel's show, and I thought I would have been fuming.

Losing his pension?

This is an outrage.

[Bluebear]

46. Don't worry: Obama will take care of folks like this young man, but it will take time.

From upthread.

As of today, 200 gay men and women have been discharged under DADT under Obama's administration.

[madfloridian]

55. That is a shocking number.

Why so many in just a few months? Are people deliberately outing them? I am stunned at that number.

[Bluebear]

57. I read, completely apocryphally, that gay service members let their guard down post-Obama

I guess they took him at his word and weren't so careful about masquerading :(

[rcrush]

68. Just curious what is taking so long?

Congress could draft a resolution in days. Obama could sign it. They seem to be more concered about their political careers than helping gays. I guess that just makes them typical politicians. But what I dont understand is that if they are worried about alienating some large number of their electorate by repealing DADT then wouldnt they GAIN supporters in gays? Do they really think that if they give homosexuals equal rights that they will get voted out of office in a landslide?

[ChiciB1]

145. You Know... What Obama SAID... Not So Much Anymore!!! I Un-subscribed From

any more emails from David Plouffe, Obama & Democrats today! I'm just really really worn out! I suppose coming here and seeing all the FIGHTING going on doesn't help much either. It's just that I HAD to stop watching MSM and HERE is where I am getting most of my news!

Oh well, tra-la, tra-la!!! EVERYTHING Is Beee-Yooo-Teee-F--k'd!

[proteus_lives]

48. Poor Guy.

It's not right.

[BolivarianHero]

63. Even the Jewish Theocracy can let queers serve...

So why can't the Land of the Free and the culmination of the Enlightenment? Netnyahu's a right-wing lunatic and he's not going out of his way to let Israeli queers not serve their country.

[iamthebandfanman]

75. id imagine his view is that

a body is a body, and a hand is a hand... and guns fit nicely into anybodys hands.

[oberliner]

109. The Jewish Theocracy?

There is no such country.

[bluedawg12]

125. The American Military Theocracy won't let gays serve openly.

Look no further than home.

[bluedawg12]

126. Bush honors Gen. who exampliefies homophobia.

http://www.beyondhomophobia.com/blog/page/3 /

June 21, 2008President Honors General Who Exposed DADT’s Real RootsPosted at 12:53 pm (Pacific Time)

On Thursday, President Bush awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom to General Peter Pace, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, “for his steadfast leadership, his selfless devotion to keeping Americans safe, and his great courage.”

The award was greeted with widespread criticism because of remarks made by Gen. Pace last year about homosexuality and the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” (DADT) policy.

In a March 12, 2007, interview with the Chicago Tribune, he likened homosexuality to adultery and asserted, “I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts…. I do not believe the United States is well served by a policy that says it is okay to be immoral in any way.”

His remarks sparked outrage among congressional Democrats and gay advocacy groups. According to a National Public Radio report, senior Pentagon officials privately disclosed that the Secretary of Defense summoned Pace to his office after the comments were made public and demanded that he issue a statement. The following day, the Pentagon released the General’s statement, in which he downplayed the importance of his own moral views, but did not apologize for his remarks:

I made two points in support of the policy during the interview. One, “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” allows individuals to serve this nation; and two, it does not make a judgment about the morality of individual acts. In expressing my support for the current policy, I also offered some personal opinions about moral conduct. I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views.

Six months later, shortly before retiring, Gen. Pace reiterated his sentiments at a September Senate Appropriations Committee hearing. Saying he sought to clarify his earlier remarks, Pace noted that there are “wonderful Americans who happen to be homosexual serving in the military.” He continued:

We need to be very precise then, about what I said wearing my stars and being very conscious of it…. And that is, very simply, that we should respect those who want to serve the nation but not through the law of the land, condone activity that, in my upbringing, is counter to God’s law.

<snip>

Rather than trying to justify DADT on bogus factual grounds, Gen. Pace gave the world a refreshingly honest account of the real reasons why the US government still clings to the policy. By highlighting the moral worldview on which it is based, he showed that the policy is mainly about religious beliefs and longstanding prejudices, not the laundry list of concerns about the practical impact of a policy change that are routinely cited by DADT defenders.

Of course, it may not have been Gen. Pace’s intention to provide such clarity about the real roots of DADT. But perhaps he nevertheless deserves recognition for it.

And, since past Medal of Freedom awardees from within the Bush administration have included former CIA Director George Tenet, former Iraq administrator L. Paul Bremer, and Gen. Tommy Franks — all of whom have been strongly criticized for their roles in the current Administration’s early Iraq decisionmaking and policies — perhaps Gen. Pace is in the right company.

[IntravenousDemilo]

166. Anyone who kills other people for a living has no business offering any opinion on morality. n/m

[iamthebandfanman]

74. HOW DARE HE QUESTION OUR PRESIDENT!

unamerican bastard!


*rolls eyes*

[BuyingThyme]

79. This post is too far left for this forum.

[autorank]

97. Dumfuckistan is a state of mind, not a location n/t k*r

[tnlefty]

106. Thanks for posting this. I heard it on the radio yesterday and

was so stunned that I was sure that I didn't hear it correctly. This is just hard to believe and the 200 since the inaugural is even more shocking.

[Chovexani]

110. This is the way we treat the people who put their lives on the line

In service to our country.

Disgraceful. What happened to "support the troops"?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

111. we have to support our Heroes instead.

[HamdenRice]

115. Dag! What's the deal with the vein on his head?!

That doesn't seem normal.

The reason that could be important is that when Bart Giamatti (baseball comish, former president of Yale) died suddenly of a heart attack, some doctor who had seen him on tv the day before said he knew it was going to happen because of a bulging vein in his head -- some kind of precursor to heart attacks or something.

[Starry Messenger]

117. Might be the stress of losing his career? n/t

[Bluebear]

118. Any comment on his dilemma, or just his head vein?!

[HamdenRice]

119. No, just the vein ! nt

[Bluebear]

120. I guess there's nothing in the story for your extensive lecture circuit. Carry on. nt

[QueenOfCalifornia]

136. LOL!

:rofl:

[QC]

121. Senator Frist, is that you? n/t

[bluedawg12]

123. "from the way he was holding his cigarette" + destroying the life of a military hero

Ciggies will do that.
http://ask.metafilter.com/36684/Baseball-commissioner-warned-before-fatal-heart-attack

The OP points to a grave injustice.

[HamdenRice]

124. That was it. It was his fingers, not his vein, and the wrong person. nt

[Duncan Grant]

149. You're a lot like that mailman on "Cheers": Cliff Clavin, the self-styled expert on everything.

Every board has one.

[HamdenRice]

159. Asking, "Dag, what's that vein" is claiming expertise?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dag! You have a low threshold for expertise!

[IntravenousDemilo]

167. Dag?

Hammarskjöld?

[HamdenRice]

169. It's a cross between damn! and dog! ie polite "non-curse" nt

[ooglymoogly]

127. Obama; turning a blind eye to his blah, blah, blah's.

This is a ridiculous citation that must be fought on the loudest levels. Folks are being destroyed by these born again "christian" prejudices codified into UNSPEAKABLE laws.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

129. SUPPORT THE TROOPS....

unless they are gay.

Then you can fuck them over... it's okay to treat a homosexual like shit. That is all this is saying - and Obama could change it if he wanted to. But he keeps ignoring the plight of gay people because apparently they should not have equal protection under the law.

[orleans]

130. "poutrage?"

it pisses me off that obama can't sign a paper and put a freeze on this dadt until congress can change the law.

we're bleeding in the military (between this and deaths/suicides) and there is no reason i can see that he shouldn't put a firing freeze on it.

[bertman]

132. This situation is so disgusting it makes me sick to my stomach to think of the injustice

done to this man and so many other Americans like him.

This must stop. It is inhuman and should be illegal.

Anyone who has served in the military, whether before or during DADT, knows that there were/are many homosexuals in our armed services. It's never been a secret, just one of those "things" that people chose mostly to ignore--until DADT. It is beyond my comprehension how someone as intelligent and resourceful as our Commander-In-Chief can continue to let this travesty of a policy go unchallenged. All of us on DU who are outraged by this must send our President an email condemning this act against Col. Fehrenback and against all homosexuals in our military. Not only you should email him, but also any of your friends and relatives who are sympathetic to this human rights issue. After you email President Obama go right ahead and send emails to your Senators and your Representative. It matters not whether they are left-, right-, or center, they still need to hear from us.

Recently on another thread, I talked about a fantasy I had that involved hundreds of thousands of heterosexual American servicemen and servicewomen standing in solidarity with their fellow homosexual servicemen and servicewomen by reporting to their unit commanders in masse and saying "I am gay". If 20 percent of our nation's military stood up for gay rights and faced discharge, imagine how quickly our Congress would HAVE to act just to keep our troops in the field and our military in working order.

That may be a fantasy that will never occur, but I'd like to think that a massive "self-outing" by our gay military folks would also encourage many of their sympathetic fellow servicemen and servicewomen to join them in protest.

Surely most of the men and women who serve with Col. Fehrenbach, Lt. Choi, and Lt. Tsao, would rally to their aid if all of this went public in a big way.

Am I being naive?

[David__77]

134. This is a test of Obama. We should not accept anything less than executive action.

These discharges need to be stopped while Congress works on a repeal bill. Anything less than that is unacceptable, backward, reactionary.

[janx]

137. Some media $$$ are using this guy. n/t

[Bluebear]

138. Do elaborate

[TheWatcher]

171. He won't but I can do it for him.

"I Believe, I support, I'm confident, I hope, I have faith, Just have patience, don't undermine The Football Team, we can't give aid and comfort to the other side by eating our own, It's only been "X" number of days, sorry you didn't get your pony, etc, etc, etc"

[shireen]

140. In order for a guy to fly combat aircraft, he must like girls?

That is the most absurdly ridiculously

stupid

qualification for being a combat pilot. :mad:

[foxfeet]

143. Apparently the planes no longer have joysticks.

[baldguy]

144. All Obama has to do to make this right

Is to tell the Pentagon to STOP DISCHARGING GAYS!

They can figure out the legal shit later.

[and-justice-for-all]

147. That is just fuckin' awful....

total discrimination. I think someone should be judged in their job performance and not what they do in their private lives.

It seems that adultery is OK. An armed forces man can go and bag as many women that will let him and that is OK, they surely brag about it too. But if you have sex with another man, well that is just unacceptable.

last I checked who I fuck is my own damn business and getting relieved of my job for it is nothing more than discrimination. I have been in a relationship longer then most hetero marriages will ever last(15 years) and yet, I am the bad guy.

I do not see why I would even need to disclose my sexual orientation if I was in the military or at my place of employment. It is no ones business what I do and who I do it with.

Lt. Col. Victor Fehrenbach getting relived of 18 years of service just pisses me the fuck off!

[livefreest]

148. i too am disappointed in President Obama. i hope he will do something however it will always be

mentioned that he waited to do the right thing

[bluedawg12]

150. "Why can people not see this as a threat to all of us?"

This interesting comment sent from a friend about this case and sharing it:

Why can people not see this as a threat to all of us? They are just not thinking it through - or they are blinded by their own unexamined bigotry. A civilian reported him? For what? "Suspicion of being gay?" WTF? "Acting gay?" And then some asshat uses the example "what if someone went on national TV and announced they were gay?" WTF? So it is against the law to say you are gay, and if you do you lose all civil rights? Fuck that. I am gay in that case.

We are not talking about asking Obama to do anything as courageous or risky as ignoring or disobeying the Fugitive Slave Act here - although many people back then had the courage to do just that, including politicians who had to worry about elections every bit as much as Obama and the Dems and their sycophants, loyalists and cheer leaders do.

When the supposed "crime" is that someone somewhere suspects that you "are" something, or the supposed "crime" is that you said something, none of us will never be safe and none of us will ever be free.

I can't stand hearing this so-called logic - "well you can pass, unlike poc. So long as you mind your own business and don't talk about your sex life" &%$$%$ "then no one will bother you." WTF? This has nothing to do with anyone's "sex life." And we are talking about something just a little more serious than being "bothered" here. And why the hell are we not all free to talk about whatever the hell we want to talk about without worrying about placing ourselves at grave risk? And why should anyone have to change anything or hide anything in order to earn the privilege - and that is how those idiots are talking about rights, as though they were privileges - to not be "bothered?"

What possible justification is there for denying anyone the right to freedom of association? The right to self-determination, the right to freedom of speech? I can't speak? I can't be with whom I choose, the way I choose? Or is it just certain things I can't say, certain people I cannot associate with? I cannot associate with or speak about the most important person in my life? Or I have to hide or lie, or otherwise be abused and persecuted, and then that will be my fault? WTF?

What sort of "Democrat" or "liberal" or "progressive" would continue to aggressively argue in defense of the denial of fundamental human rights to anyone on any pretext, and then attack people who object to that?

[Bluebear]

153. That is one wise friend.

[bluedawg12]

158. Civillians secretly reporting military members on suspicion of being gay?

Doesn't even sound American to me. Hideous.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

157. Would you please sit down and shut up!

We have to think about 2010, then 2012, then 2014, then 2016, then 2018, then 2020..... then 2100, etc...



This is NOT an important issue.


Maybe we can think about gay rights 1000 years from now. MAYBE. Gay civil rights are not as important as other things on our agenda.

[TheWatcher]

172. I know that was sarcasm, but due to the high tensions around here, it might be a good idea to add

the tag anyway, just to be safe. :)

[bluedawg12]

173. Some day when DADT is repealed I pray that he get's his benefits and pension

retroactive.

He has faced down barriers, overcome difficult odds, and lived the American dream.

Until a fellow American reported him in secrecy.

He brought not only the experience acquired over the course of a brilliant military career, but the wisdom accumulated over the course of an extraordinary journey – a journey defined by hard work, fierce intelligence, and the enduring faith that, in America, all things are possible.

Oh, wait. That was someone else. A straight person. Sorry. Doesn’t apply to gays.