AA: Faith-based treatment of a reality-based problem?

[BurtWorm]

Food for thought from the blog Science-Based Medicine:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=490

AA is Faith-Based, Not Evidence-Based


||||Today 4:00 AM|Harriet HallAlcoholics Anonymous is the most widely used treatment for alcoholism. It is mandated by the courts, accepted by mainstream medicine, and required by insurance companies. AA is generally assumed to be the most effective treatment for alcoholism, or at least “an” effective treatment. That assumption is wrong.

We hear about a few success stories, but not about the many failures. AA’s own statistics show that after 6 months, 93% of new attendees have left the program. The research on AA is handily summarized in a Wikipedia article. A recent Cochrane systematic review found no evidence that AA or other 12 step programs are effective.

...

In the current issue of Free Inquiry, Steven Mohr has written a thorough and incisive article “Exposing the Myth of Alcoholics Anonymous.”

Mohr characterizes AA as a religious cult. The founder, Bill Wilson, had a religious experience while under the influence of strong psychotropic drugs.

He had a vision of a bright light and the revelation that he could be saved only by giving his life completely and fully to God – and that an important part of his recovery would be to bring the news of his epiphany and recovery to other suffering alcoholics.

The 12 steps of AA refer repeatedly to God. They require admitting you are powerless, accepting that only a Higher Power can help you, turning your will and your life over to God, taking a moral inventory, admitting your wrongs, being ready to let God remove your shortcomings, making amends to those you have harmed, improving your conscious contact with God through prayer and meditation, and spreading the word (proselytizing).

Criticism of the religious orientation led AA to switch emphasis from “God” to any “higher power.” One member allegedly designated a doorknob as his higher power and believed that praying to the doorknob helped him maintain sobriety.

...

The 1992, the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism’s National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey studied 42,000 Americans. 4500 had been dependent on alcohol at some time in their lives. Of these, only 27% had had treatment of any kind, and one-third of those who had been treated were still abusing alcohol. Of those who had never had any treatment, only one-quarter were still abusing alcohol. George Bush is a well-known example of someone who stopped drinking on his own without attending AA and without admitting that he was an alcoholic.

...

Instead of telling people they are powerless, wouldn’t it make more sense to empower them and build on their strengths? Why not tell them they are stronger than alcohol and they can choose not to let it control them? Even if you prefer a religious approach, you could pray for God to support your strength to change your own life, taking full personal responsibility rather than passively turning over the responsibility to a higher power. The old adage “God helps those who help themselves” applies.

Instead of the religious model of sin, confession and absolution, what if we avoided harping on the past and started fresh, concentrating on the patient’s behavior today and in the future? Sure, make amends to those you have harmed for the bad things you have done, but why not put the emphasis on doing good things for other people today and tomorrow? Instead of being “ready to let God remove your shortcomings,” how about taking active steps to improve your own behavior? Why not build self-esteem instead of re-visiting past experiences that damaged self-esteem?

...

[fascisthunter]

1. It Works for Some, but Not for All

the religious aspect was extreme at some meetings.... which was a big turn-off for me and others I knew. Still haven't picked up a drink in over 5-6 years. Funny thing is, once I stopped going to AA, I didn't bother counting the days I've been sober.

[Bill McBlueState]

3. the religious aspect varies a lot, apparently

Someone I know who goes to Al-Anon sometimes says that when she lived in a deep blue part of the country, there was no mention of religion at all. But when she went to a meeting in the midwest, they closed the meeting with the Protestant version of the Lord's Prayer.

I mean, really? You're going to assume everyone at this meeting is a Protestant Christian? I thought they'd be interested in helping people feel welcome.

[fascisthunter]

25. yeah... it happens with every org

there seems to be extremities everwhere... human nature I suppose. AA is overall a great thing.... but religion is only a part of it. Spirituality can mean just about anything... the idea is to give up on trying to overcome something alcoholics cannot. Giving up to a "higher-power", which for all individuals is different, helps.

[WCGreen]

178. It really drove me crazy, the higher power stuff...

But I stayed with them for two plus years, swallowed my pride, well most of the time, there are idiots everywhere. After about 3 years of sobriety I felt confident enough in my state of mind to deal with my "disease" on my own.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

69. I had some success with AA in the 90s

but relapsed after about 4 years, I had become tired of the herd mentality that seems to go with being in AA. I didn't like that people who claimed to be close friends with other members, all but turn their backs on those same "friends" if they had a slip. I have struggled with drinking my whole adult life and a few months ago went back to a meeting to see if it could help. The meeting was great and it really connected with me, but at the end of that great meeting everyone got in a circle and said the Lord's Prayer. As an atheist it made me feel uncomfortable and I really hated that the meeting had to end that way. I knew that was the way every meeting ends, but as an organization that claims not to have any religious affiliation, to end every meeting with a Christian prayer is very hypocritical. I won't be going back.

[fascisthunter]

77. it was tough for me to swallow as well

I found my own way it has worked so far.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

118. Hi, My name is John

and I'm an alcoholic. If you are uncomfortable with the prayer at the end, don't say it! :)
There are meetings I go to that end with a moment of silence. No one forces you to do anyhting in AA, including praying or even believing in a Higher Power. Did you read the chapter "To Agnostics?"

[spiritual_gunfighter]

131. I read the entire big book

I am not an agnostic, I am an atheist. I only came to that in the last few years though, when I was in the program in the 90's I had no problem with steps 2 and 3. Now I do, I personally don't care to stand in silence during a prayer that represents everything that is against what I believe in. Again I will say for a program that claims no religious affiliation the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting is hypocritical. I have been to so many different meetings I can't even count, in different states and even in foreign countries and I have never once been to a meeting where the Lord's Prayer isn't said. My sobriety is very important to me but so are my principals as a human being. AA and what I believe cannot co-exist, so I choose not to go anymore.

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

80. Yeah I dont count the days of sobrity anymore either

It's a bit telling that a program that tells you to take it one day at a time, would keep count of every day you havent drank.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

138. I don't either, but...

counting the days when I was new was very helpful to me. Having short term goals (30 days, 60 days, 6 months) kept me coming back, and kept me sober.

One day at a time (sometimes one hour at a time) is simply the method that it takes to start building some sober time. For this alcoholic, I needed sober time to start putting the pieces of my life back together.

I only count in years now, and it will be 18 in September.

Obviously this method doesn't work for everyone, in fact it doesn't work for most people, but that's due to the fact that the disease itself is very powerful and for most people it's very difficult to get clean and stay clean.

[Deep13]

121. "Still haven't picked up a drink in over 5-6 years."

You deserve a lot of credit for that. Your friends at AA probably deserve some credit too for their moral support and advice. I highly doubt, however, that the AA program itself deserves much.

[bananas]

2. LOL - "George Bush is a well-known example"

"George Bush is a well-known example of someone who stopped drinking on his own without attending AA and without admitting that he was an alcoholic."

[Hello_Kitty]

5. And if he'd gone to AA there's about a 95% chance he'd be in the same state

That's AA's 2 year failure rate.

[Critters2]

36. Yeah. Any article that uses W as a "good example" of anything

is suspect. If ever there were a human failure, it's George W. Bush.

[Hello_Kitty]

4. I got flamed by an AA enthusiast on DU when I dared to suggest it doesn't work for everyone

He screamed that anyone could "get" the program and that those who didn't were "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves", as he quoted from the Preamble that is read at every meeting. I very seriously doubt this person would be so defensive about, oh say, born again Christianity and so insistent that it was a one-size-fits-all solution but AA truly does have a bizarre (and undeserved) monopoly over alcoholism treatment.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

70. AA enthusiasts seem to always get self righteous

when you question the program, and yeah they always say you arent being honest with yourself if you don't get it. I was in AA for a number of years and while it works for some people it doesn't for others. But most AA's will claim that you are the one that is the failure not the program. So much of it is classic cult mentality and as an organization that claims no religious affiliation to end every meeting with the Lord's Prayer is nothing short of hypocritical. I have quit drinking on my own and while I must always be vigilant I dont think I need AA to validate my not drinking. People can do it on their own if they want and many who go to AA relapse anyway.

[Hello_Kitty]

180. Oh but the 12 steppers will insist that there are plenty of meetings that don't have prayers

I just never happened to attend any of them. In four different states and two other countries. Yeah, I'm sure there are secular meetings in New York City or San Francisco, but good damn luck finding one anywhere else.

[varkam]

223. I attend a pretty secular 12-step group. Right in the heart of bible country.

Go figure. :shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

248. What does "pretty secular" mean?

Only one prayer? Fewer mentions of Turning Your Will And Life Over To Gawd (as you see HIM)?

On edit, just so I'm clear: At the first mention of how I need a sky fairy, you lose me. You automatically go into the "superstitious hoo ha" category.

[varkam]

253. Well...

we use the serenity prayer - not the lord's prayer as some groups do. We make a pretty big point about not proselytizing specific creeds or dogmas, and the understanding is that one's higher power can be pretty much anything - from God to the fellowship to "Good Orderly Direction".

We also have several atheists and agnostics who are in attendance.

[Hello_Kitty]

264. Right.

The Serenity Prayer is a prayer.

The Preamble, the 12 Steps, and the first chapters of the Big Book outline a specific creed and dogma. The dogma of 12 Steps. Which is why there are meetings devoted to the "study" of the Big Book and the 12 Steps.

Higher Power = object or entity invested with special imaginary powers that you are expected to pray to and ask for guidance.

[varkam]

271. I'm just telling you how it works in our group, and how we perceive the program to operate.

I'm sorry if that doesn't line up with your own experiences.

Meetings that I attend are devoted to recovery, period. The 12-steps are used as a guide in that process a guide, which I might add, have been very helpful to me in my recovery from addiction. It does not work for everyone, nor should it. I know that many people bristle at the very notion of being powerless over something, and even more so that bristle at the mere mention of the word God. Many such individuals don't stick around long enough to understand that, at least as 'we' understand the term to mean, it's a completely non-specific type of thing.

Furthermore, there's really no "dogma" of the 12-steps, at least not as how my experience has been with them. The words in them mean different things to different people. There's not a lot of right or wrong way to go about interpreting them. The only requirement for membership is a desire to recover - there is no requirement that one belong to a specific faith, that one believe in a certain God, or that one interpret the 12-steps in a certain way. The goal is to try to make it as inclusive as possible, as I have certainly been at meetings where I have seen the introduction of personal faith cause divisiveness and detract from the overriding goal of recovery.

But, then again, the meetings aren't for everyone. Probably including such individuals who bristle at the mention of the G-word or for whom powerlessness is not in their vocabulary.

[demosincebirth]

287. Sound like the norm for AA groups

[Deep13]

123. That's fundamentalist thinking.

The program deserves the credit for positive results and the individual deserves the blame for negative ones. No other medical treatment blames the patient for failure if that patient is following the treatment.

[Critters2]

145. You never met my former therapist. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

156. Unfortunately, some people have internalized this idea that it HAS to work for everyone

as part of their own program of staying sober.

It's a shame, because there are secular alternatives that have comparable track records in terms of keeping people sober, which makes it all that much more unfortunate when Atheists are told "you MUST do it this way or die" by 12 steppers.

[Hello_Kitty]

179. There are excellent secular alternatives

There's Rational Recovery and SMART. I went from being a hard core daily binge drinker to an occasional tippler after 3 SMART meetings. They recommend abstinence but don't require it. And they don't make you pray or turn your "power" over to a sky fairy.

[SidDithers]

6. Happy to K&R...nt

Sid

[peace13]

7. I would rather go to jail than AA!

Why do I have to profess to a fake deity in order to get the help that is needed, or is it that only Christians are alcoholics?

[SOS]

13. Alcoholism landed me in jail and (later) in AA.

Comparing the two experiences, I hold a different view.
American jails suck. My cell was a filthy hellhole.

The AA meetings were filled with helpful people and I could leave whenever I liked.
There were guys there who had been in my situation and were able to really help me.
Haven't had a drink since 1992.
Jail was filled with angry guys, brutal guards and zero help for my alcoholism.

To each their own.

[peace13]

61. I appreciate your comments.

I applaud your accomplishments. Your insight is very valuable. I am sure that AA can work. It is good if one can accept the religious aspects of the program. As for me, I could not and it would be a lie and I feel that if public dollars are spent on programs then there should be an option that does not involve religion. So many are people left out because of that. Thank you for your comments. Peace, Kim

[timtom]

66. What little experience I've had with 12-step programs

refers to a "higher power", leaving everyone to interpret that as they will. Is that still too religious for you? And I'm not trying to be snarky, but do you not believe in a power greater than yourself?

[peace13]

68. The inner light or power within...

could be ones own power. I don't think that believing in an outside power is essential to being a good human. My point is that if I am already having trouble with drugs or alcohol I don't need someones good book of mysteries shoved up my behind. I would like to focus on the problem and the inner strength that I need to cultivate in order to overcome the addiction. I don't think that you are being snarky and I hope that you can accept that some people are happy working at life on their own, empowering themselves with inner strength and helping others on this planet.

[Dorian Gray]

75. I think that

most AA groups would find it perfectly reasonable and acceptable to use the power within or the inner light as your higher power.

But, if you figure out a way to not drink on your own, and it works for you, great!

[timtom]

82. My question about higher power goes beyond 12-step programs.

As a matter of fact, I am not an advocate of them.

But, one has to admit to a higher power, be it a nuclear bomb, Horseshoe Falls, or a train doing 150 mph. And, I mention it because everyone seems to jump to an anthropomorphized being which may or may not be anywhere near true.

Actually I'm not going anywhere in particular with this.

And, while I'm a Christian, I like your response. And I agree with much of it.

Cheers.

[conscious evolution]

290. I've used gravity

as a higher power before.
Gravity always wins.

The whole higher power thing is about admitting you need help.Something alkies are loathe to do.Our egos tell us we don't need anyone but ourselves.Unfortunately,the biochemical component of alcoholism is a lot stronger than our egos.

[truedelphi]

102. I get the feeling from reading over the comments here, that perhaps

In different parts of the country, AA has different amounts of religiousity attached to it.

For instance, someone in an earlier post says the meetings end in the "Lord's Prayer." I have been to AA meetings and none in the SF Bay area (that I know of) end that way. And in the Bay Area, your higher self is offered up a lot if you indicate you are a non-believer.

It could well be different in more rural areas of the country.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

132. I think you might be referring to my comment

I said that no meeting I have ever been to hasn't said the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting. I live in Chicago, not exactly a rural area. I used to go to a meeting that was about 2 blocks from Cabrini Green. This particular meeting was so Christian I thought I had stumbled into a revival meeting. I have been to meetings in many different states and even a foreign country and I have never been to a meeting where the Lord's Prayer wasn't said. I admit that different meetings are more religious than others but being around AA for close to 20 years, the overall feel of the program is that of a religious one. I have never been to meetings in SF so it may be different there and that is great, but my experience with AA has been that of a very unspoken and quiet religious one. I readily admit that AA helped me when I desperately needed it and I have taken things I have learned from AA and applied them to my daily life, but as I got older and wiser I tended to see AA for what it really was. If it helps you and others, great more power to you but as for me I choose not to align myself with AA anymore.

[Dorian Gray]

200. NYC as well

There are some at churches that may end that way, but so many are secular without the prayer. I forget that around the country things aren't necessarily the same.

[Hello_Kitty]

182. Yes, it is too religious for me.

I'm an atheist and telling me "it's a spiritual, not religious program" is a semantical distinction without a difference. It's not that I think that I'm all-powerful, but the notion that I'm supposed to focus on some imaginary anthromorphisized whatever and talk to it and ask it for guidance is just thinly-disguised religion to me. And the founders of AA made no secret of the fact that they were basing their program on Christian precepts.

[SOS]

128. Thank you

I agree that we really need more detox and rehab opportunities in this country.
It took me six months of effort to get into a 7 day detox!

One element of AA that is really good is that there are people there who understand what you've been through.
Often times, non-alcoholics are mystified and angry regarding the behavior of the alcoholic.
It was such a relief to be able to talk to people who had been through the same nightmare.

For some, the understanding of the group is enough to get a toehold on sobriety.

Peace to you as well.

[Rockholm]

184. AA does work. Take what you want and leave the rest.

So they say a prayer. Big deal. There are no government funds in AA. Self supporting.

[Puzzler]

282. Fair enough, but I think that one of the points is...

... that if a court orders someone to go to AA, then we have government involvement.

[TexasObserver]

104. Those aren't the only two choices. Faulty paradigm

[Hello_Kitty]

249. Ah, the famous AA false dichotomy

It's either AA or jail. Or death or institutions. There's no other option. :eyes:

[the other one]

114. Right on!

28 days in a filthy cell is much easier to take then 28 days inpatient. In jail you are left alone, not hounded by cultists and idiots 24/7.

Don't compare outpatient meetings to jail.

[Tutankhamun]

8. One feature of cults is to convince the followers that they are powerless.

They cannot help themselves, and if they leave the cult they will die. Hence AA's focus on making adherents believe they are powerless. This also explains the standard claim that if one leaves the cult of AA, they will die.

[stillcool]

10. Have you been to many meetings?

Know anyone that has been in recovery? Never been powerless over an addiction, or anything else? You know what happens when drug addicts and alcoholics don't quit? Been to any prisons or psych wards lately?

[Tutankhamun]

12. AA doesn't save lives because it doesn't work.

[stillcool]

21. I've been sober for 17 years..

worked for me. and since you didn't answer my questions, is it safe to assume you have no knowledge of what you speak?

[Tutankhamun]

31. Scientology claims the same thing with their "purification rundown".

Been to a Scientology meeting lately? Ever been in a prison or a psych ward? Ever known anyone who was powerless over an addiction? Tom Cruise Has been an OT clear for years, free of the reactive mind implanted in him by the evil galactic overlord Xenu. He is now impervious to all illness. Are you free of the overlord Xenu, or do you know not of what you speak?

[stillcool]

32. Never been to a Scientology meeting..

why would I? I'm an alcoholic and an addict. How you can compare the two is beyond me. Yes...I've been to prison, and a psych ward. You obviously do not have any knowledge of what you speak. I suggest you head to an AA, NA meeting..the veterans meetings are particularly illuminating. Then feel free to spew your bullshit.

[Tutankhamun]

49. Scientology has a program to help the gullible quit drinking/drugs.

The program is called the "purification rundown". I suggest you attend Scientology's "purification rundown" then go visit a meeting full of high level Scientology initiates before you dare say that Scientology is less effective than AA at helping people stop abusing drugs/alcohol.

I compare Scientology to AA because they both claim to be the only effective way to free oneself from addictions and their effects, despite any lack of published evidence of this in medical/scientific literature.

I am comparing one cult with another.

[stillcool]

52. No thank you...

fortunately for me, I have been sober for 17 years now, and have never believed in any religious beliefs or icons. I don't know who you think you are in dismissing a program you obviously know nothing about, that has helped millions of people across the globe achieve sobriety. I so hope, at some point in your life, you learn some of the most enlightening lessons life has to offer.

[Hello_Kitty]

250. Yeah, we know.

AA is a goooood cult. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

110. Scientology is about the exact polar opposite of AA.

Scientology is a scam that sells you omnipotence while secretly enslaving you whereas AA offers an opportunity for you to put your ego down and allow yourself to get into a manageable relationship with yourself, alcohol and other people. They couldn't be more different. lol

:)

[Critters2]

134. The cost alone makes them diametrically different from one another.

AA is free, or as much as one chooses to donate. Not so Scientology (or rehab, or psychotherapy).

[EFerrari]

147. Scientology is all about perfection; AA is about acceptance of humanity.

In Scientology they teach you to dissociate and to fear people on the outside. AA trys to suggest ways to be able to handle the moment as best as you can in the company of all men.

There are no courses or auditing rundowns for agnostics as there are meeting for agnostics. :)

[Dorian Gray]

201. I think you pinpointed the differences in their approach

quite nicely!

[Hello_Kitty]

251. And they both tell you that they alone have the answer to your problem

Both tell you that you will meet a horrible fate if you leave.

Differences between cults are mostly cosmetic. Despite the pristine reputation that 12 step programs have, they kill people. Literally. I knew a man who committed suicide because his AA 'sponsor', who had no medical training or credentials of any kind, told him that his anti-psychotic meds compromised his sobriety. So he went off his meds. How many people do you think left AA and drank themselves to death because AA planted the suggestion in their minds that they would drink themselves to death if they left?

Sure AA helps some people too. But so does Scientology.

[FlyingSquirrel]

280. If that is true, it is a tragedy.

But nobody is required to do anything that someone else suggests. Plenty of people dump their 'sponsors' if they aren't working for them - I'm considering doing that very thing right now. The sponsor who made that suggestion was clearly mistaken. And you have no way of knowing whether people who left AA drank themselves to death because "AA planted this suggestion in their minds" as opposed to the much more likely fact that alcohol kills - something which can be empirically proven and can be seen as having happened prior to the existence of AA.

[conscious evolution]

289. AA gets people like that

I'veseen quite a few people in AA practricing medicine without a liscence.
I always call them out on it.
The big book even says some people will need medications to get through it all if Doctors feel they are neccessary for recovery.

By the way,most alcoholics will drink themselves to death whether or not they have ever attended meetings-It is the nature of the disease.

[firehorse]

33. Athiests can have a higher power too.

I'm an athiest and I'm in alanon -- a 12 step program.

The first three steps are about redefining for yourself (emphasis on: self) of what your higher power is. I'm an athiest, was before I was in 12 step, and am afterwards and I don't use the word god, and most the people in my meetings don't either. But frankly even if they did, it's not my business.

For some people an HP is the meeting room itself, they hand their problem over to the rooms, instead of behaving in old alcoholic behavior based on reaction and control.

A lot of people growing up in an alcoholic family, survived their childhood by becoming self reliant to the point of not trusting anything outside themselves. For me that kind of hyper self reliance made me my own little god and in the process I lost my "spirituality" It's about control. Learning to let go of control and to relearn to have "faith" in my place in the universe was a major part of my spiritual re-building, and making a relationship with my HP. I'm still an athiest. I don't believe in monotheism or religious dogma. I do believe in nature, the trees, the ocean and that I'm a small part of life in the continuum.

And I also don't believe in making other people my higher power, whether its projecting my HP on political leaders, authors, professors, parents, religious leaders, etc.

They say in 12 step programs to go to at least 6 meetings to find one that feels right. People who get discouraged and quit probably didn't take the advise of the program to try more meetings or they weren't ready to get out of denial or off the booze.

[stillcool]

34. I'm a no-label..

I refuse to define a "Higher Power". I don't have to create an image, or define a theory, and put it in stone. I'm free to choose what I believe each and every day for myself. It's the business of nobody else, an it's no one elses life but my own.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

38. for relatively few people does it work

most do not find it helpful - if it worked as well as you think it did, there would be very little dui repeat offenders since AA meetings are dictated by a judge ---

It works for some.

period.

but so do other methods.

I have 2 friends (very close) who could not stand the AA religion (it is a religion) their meetings are a string of prayers to a "higher power" both of these people quit drinking and have not had a drop of alcohol for over 16 years --- You can find just as many success stories in different forms of treatment -

AA tells you that other treatments will not work - nothing else worked for me! is the clarion call --- (I have been to hundreds of AA meetings) I have a lot of experience in this and AA is a cult and some people are more able to adhere to a cult like dogma than others.

Cults first convince you that you are powerless. Exactly what AA does. Exactly. No matter how you want to rationalize it, AA is a cult.

Yes, it can save some people but not most.

[stillcool]

39. I'm speaking for myself..

and all of those I personally know, including my husband and family members, who have quit drinking and drugging with the help of the people we met in AA. Sorry you are so offended by my experience.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

143. Please...

I am not in the least offended by your experience. Jeesh.

If it helps someone fine -

[county worker]

231. I like the line in "Grapes of Wrath". A guy asks, if the one telling the others what it's like in

California, is telling the truth. The ex preacher says, "yeah he's telling the truth, the truth for him."

The truth for you is "AA is cult." Fine, who gives a shit. If it helps some people good. You don't like it good, don't go.

Why do you have the need to knock it? That is really telling.

[Rockholm]

185. Sober since 1991.

The person who is not responding to you has no idea what they are talking about.

[BoneDaddy]

222. That is both very true and very false

I have known a multitude of people who have saved their lives through AA and I know a multitude of people for whom it didn't work.

[get the red out]

233. Oh my, then I've beed dead for 16 years

And here I am sitting here typing. Now that's a miracle!!!

[TexasObserver]

105. Yes, some AA groups can be very cultish.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

273. Ding DING DING!!! Christianity. Original sin. Unearned shame and guilt.

Ding!! :D

[stillcool]

9. I spent my first 3 years of recovery...

in AA. It may not work for all, but in my experience it works better than any treatment facility. If it doesn't work for you, don't go. If you don't need it, why do you care?

[Tutankhamun]

11. Works better than any treatment facility?

What about the hospital treatment facilities that are AA based? Maybe you should have said "AA works better than any treatment methdology, including itself."

[stillcool]

22. I've been in and out of treatment centers..

as I said.."My Experience". I said what I know to be true.

[firehorse]

37. My mom went into rehab but not AA

She doesn't drink.

But she's still a drunk, a dry drunk. And she's still in alcoholic co-dependent behavior living with her still actively drinking husband.

Growing up in an alcoholic household passed the disease on to me. I'm not an alcoholic but I'm addicted to all kinds of internal things and get my "highs" and "hits" internally. I get hits of adrenaline from reading the news and posting here and at other message boards. I get shame attacks from things that have nothing to do with me, and the attacks provide internal hits that feel like narcotics. Since I grew up in this, I'm hardwired neurologically. I also have PTSD from child hood trauma of growing up in dysfunction. And I used to create a lot of drama in my life, replicating the pattern of crises I survived as a child, that gave me drug "hits" also. By my late 20's my body was so fatigued from a life time of adrenaline burnout.

Now that I"m in alanon my life is more manageble than it was before. There definatley is less drama and I'm happier having learned the tools the program offered. My mom may not be drinking but her life is still unmanageable. Her addictions actually grew after rehab. She's now addicted to spending, and other things that affect her life. She engages in isolation, and is still so deep in denial that she's cut off from feelings and people.

AA has saved a lot of lives. As a daughter of an alcoholic, it saddens me that my mom never gave AA a chance. She alive but not living.

[Tutankhamun]

53. There is no such thing as a "dry drunk."

The term was invented by the two nutjobs who founded AA. It's not an accepted term outside the cult, any more than labeling someone "suppressive" is accepted outside the cult of Scientology.

[TexasObserver]

106. Again, you are quite correct.

All cult members come to believe that their cult's way is the only way, and that it is the salvation for all similarly distressed persons.

AA was created as a Christian organization, and that is what it remains in essence. Like most religions, it is about guilt, shame, repentence, redemption, and proselytizing to the unfaithful.

[RetroLounge]

122. Keep talking...

I love when someone who doesn't know fuck-all goes on and on...

:rofl:

RL

[TexasObserver]

125. I intend to do so.

Thanks for helping make my point.

[RetroLounge]

136. Yeah, that's what I did...

:rofl:

RL

[Kajsa]

164. You got that right, Retro.

Don't let facts get in the way of their
rabid anti-AA propaganda.

:eyes:

As you know, we are a "terrorist cult".

:rofl:

[Dorian Gray]

202. That's why the Patriot Act was enacted

to deal with the likes of YOU! ;)

[Kajsa]

216. LOL- Right you are, Dorian!

:D :hi:

[LaurenG]

170. Have you ever been to AA , Alanon, Adult Children or Alateen?

Did you study the recovery rate of those in the "cult"? What methodology did you use and how did you scientifically document your findings? Is this an opinion that is based on something you read from a book written by an "expert" or something you came up with on your own? It's pretty scary that even Atheists can recover using a twelve step program. It sort of blows holes in your theory as well.

It isn't up to me or you to decide what does or doesn't work for others, we only get to decide what works for us. The AA family of groups has saved untold numbers of families and individuals, and none of them give a flip that you think its a cult.

[TexasObserver]

176. "and none of them give a flip that you think its a cult."

If that were true, this thread wouldn't be full of angry posts made by AA members who can't stand to have their group questioned.

I invite you to take the time to do the research and you'll learn for yourself that AA is no more successful that merely quitting on one's own, or going into treatment, or any other method.

[Dorian Gray]

203. Well, I'm not a member of AA

though my husband has attended meetings sporadically. It wasn't his method of quitting, but he did use meetings (particularly in the summer when he has a lot of free times) for enrichment.

I think it's a great program, and it's FREE! I don't understand the vitriol toward it. I have some friends who feel much the same way you do, but they're pretty heavy drinkers who have no intention of quitting. Which is fine and their decision. But I don't get the antipathy toward AA. At all.

[TexasObserver]

207. Your friends are the complete opposite of me.

I abhor excessive drinking, and don't care to socialize with drinkers at all.

I favor excessive drinkers curbing their behaviors. There are several methods. AA is only one, but like religions, it tends to be heavy on things that appeal only to a certain segment of the populace. AA is far too pleased with itself, and its results are negligible.

[LaurenG]

206. Those in recovery don't mind that you think it's a cult - They know it

works for them. I invite YOU to prove that AA is no more successful than quitting alone. AA groups are akin to group therapy and because of peer support addicts and families affected by addiction are supported to work on their own lives to find peace within themselves. Some loners can survive the addiction but they never figure out why they are still so bitter, peer meetings will help them over that hump and point out the flawed thinking that accompanies all alcoholics and their families.

[TexasObserver]

208. I invite you to prove AA is better than any other method of quitting.

You can't.

You have the burden of proving it is effective, and anecdotal evidence is mere delusion.

[LaurenG]

209. Why - I didn't make that statement, you did

I really don't understand how anyone can decide AA doesn't work if they haven't even attended a single meeting. Peer pressure and support is very important, I have no idea about other programs that work nor do I proclaim AA is the only option.

The burden goes back to you.

edit typo/clarification

[TexasObserver]

210. If you don't want to know the truth about addiction and recovery, that's your choice.

I don't have any need to educate you. It's out there if you're inclined to take more than anecdotal evidence. Good luck.

[LaurenG]

214. Haha, You are barking up the wrong tree

I've worked in mental health for years. I think I know a thing or two anyway.

No one recovers if they aren't ready and no one can recover from anything without commitment, period. People who keep the focus on their own issues and feel as if they are supported generally have a higher success rate. However, this goes for anything life can throw our way.

[TexasObserver]

241. "The Truth About Addiction and Recovery" is a book you haven't read.

If you had read it, you'd know my comment was a reference to it.

There are many people who "work in mental health," and it doesn't mean they know anything about mental health, or addiction, or recovery. It means they found a job and they still have it.

If you want to understand addiction and recovery, try reading legitimate sources that aren't variations on religious themes.

[LaurenG]

254. Oh my - I will check out your book - I knew you had to have

latched on to someone who wrote a book so you could back your claims about AA.

There is nothing like a person who refuses to accept more than one way to get the job done. Rigidity can also be considered a character defect you know.

[TexasObserver]

256. Accept that yours isn't the only point of view.

Get over your rigidity, as it can be considered a character defect, you know.

[LaurenG]

257. Exactly - and I am not attacking you for being open minded and supportive of others

in case you didn't get that. I am sure that there are areas in my life where I am rigid. One of them being that I am intolerant of mean people, thus our conversation. Your turn...

[LaurenG]

255. I need to know if the phrase "admitted we are powerless" is what upsets

you. That phrase means different things to different people. If you have been surfing porn and just can't seem to stop yourself and it's to the point that you'll lose your family, job etc I would say at this point you are powerless over porn. It doesn't mean that you won't move beyond it, it means at this point you can't stop (short explanation). So you might seek out a group of people who have been able to stop to see what they are doing to stop.

Since I'm just speculating, based on browsing your book, why don't you tell me what part of AA is so disturbing to you that you would argue with others over their choice of a treatment program. If AA works for people why would you try to discourage something that works for them. Why not support others in whatever way they find that helps them? You are demonizing something you don't know anything about. I don't have an issue if it's not for you but for you to try and dismiss that it doesn't work for others is pretty lame.

Look around you - there are many duers that AA works for and they are the ones who went through it yet you are judging, dismissing and demeaning their recovery and personal experience.

Make it about your experience and no one will find issue with it but to beat the "cult" drum and tell others they are on the wrong track is at the very least disrespectful.

I hope you all realize that what you are doing is not just expressing your opinion, you are trying to tell people who have experienced a good outcome that they haven't or that they are doing it wrong. There are many ways to reach a goal so live and let live. Recover your own way and leave others alone to do it their way.

[pipi_k]

243. Once you understand what the term means

you see that there is indeed such a thing as a "dry drunk".

"Dry drunks" are people who no longer drink but who still exhibit some, or most, of the same behaviors they had while they were actively drinking.

In fact, some of the worst "dry drunk" behaviors come not from the alcoholic him/herself, but from the "co-alcoholic" who lives with him/her.

My father was an active alcoholic for many years, but in some ways he was more sane than my mother, who hardly ever drank at all. While they were married, and for years after their divorce, SHE was the crazy one. The "dry drunk".

[BurtWorm]

14. I only care if courts are sending people exlcusively to AA

regardless of its proven ability or inability to help people stop drinking. Courts shouldn't be sentencing people to faith-based programs.

[sutz12]

18. They don't, at least not in my area...

Courts also concurrently send people to treatment facilities, with counselors that are certified as chemical dependency counselors.

There is also a Rational Recovery wing of the program.

[stillcool]

24. I don't think those court referrals work...

when I was first sent to AA meetings, I couldn't wait to get out of there and have a drink. Same thing with NA.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

40. oh, but they do.

and AA is without doubt, a program in which you put all of your trust into a "higher power" - One guy I saw at meetings used his motor cycle as his higher power... it made me crazy.
It is the ability to hoodwink oneself into believing that any object can be a "higher power" that was the breaking point for me and AA.

[RetroLounge]

48. The law already recognizes AA as a religion

and prisons and courts cannot mandate it.

So where's your beef now?

RL

[Why Syzygy]

191. It's been ruled unconstitutional..

but it continues to have to be fought in court if one so chooses.

Court-Mandated A.A. - The Debate
Dateline: 05/05/99

Recently a U.S. Federal Court ruled that court mandated attendance in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings was unconstitutional because of the "deeply religious nature" of A.A. Meetings, as a result of a lawsuit brought by an atheist who had been court-ordered into the program.

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/weekly/aa990505.htm

[conscious evolution]

291. I always tell those

who are there from a nudge from a judge that they can gundeck the attendance reports they have to turn in to the court because no one in AA will ever break the anonymyty of another(in theory,anyway).
Trust me on this.Very few alkies want to have anything to do with courts and the legal system.

[cherokeeprogressive]

44. Congratulations and Continued Success to You

Funny that it's the faith aspect of AA that has people here on this board who know nothing about addiction and recovery trashing it.

It seems as though some DU'ers would rather have people remain addicted than enter into a program where faith is part of the process.

[stillcool]

45. It is a difficult concept...

to understand...that faith, and belief does not have to equate to any kind of religiosity, or iconic figure. I don't think many people experience the depth of self introspection required to define "I believe" if it isn't necessary.

[Occulus]

47. Um- it's being trashed because, for some, religion is only another addiction.

And if you choose to dispute that, think on the people who "just don't feel right" when they don't go to church, or bible study, or their prayer group.

Religion, higher powers, etc. should have no place in treating chemical addiction.

[Tutankhamun]

55. Well said.

[cherokeeprogressive]

57. Goodness

For some, ANYTHING or EVERYTHING can become an addiction.

I can't think on the people who "just don't feel right" when they don't go to church, or bible study, or their prayer group because I don't know any of those people. And to further expand on that, I feel cheated when I compare my daily experiences to some DU'ers who encounter fundies at every corner and in every queue. I cannot point to a single incident in my life where a religious person tried to convince me to come over to their side of the fence. Hasn't happened. Hell, for some DU'ers, it happens on at least a weekly basis. Their posts are some of my favorites. "I trashed a fundy today!" ALWAYS gets a click from me. I think it's because they're constantly on the lookout for anyone they can belittle for having faith in a higher power. I believe it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I spend my day on the lookout for hummingbirds, sooner or later I'll find one.

Chemical addiction should be treated by whatever means bring success. Who are YOU to say what method should be used to help recovering addicts? Truly, I find people who disdain any kind of religion whatsoever to be included in the group I'll call "the most intolerant people I've ever met".

I've been to AA meetings. I'd say I've been to over fifty. Not once did any mention of religion make me feel uncomfortable. What made me feel uncomfortable was the realization that most bad things that have happened in my life involved some chemical or another.

[Occulus]

65. I've lost count of the number of stories I've heard about

people who joined AA and "found God".

I'm sorry- it may have worked for you, and you may not fall into that category, but trading one addiction for another does nothing for the underlying problem.

"Truly, I find people who disdain any kind of religion whatsoever to be included in the group I'll call "the most intolerant people I've ever met."

Yes, I do hold in disdain those who won't even let me get married, and I do scorn and have little respect for religions that call me an "abomination". That, however, is best discussed elsewhere.

What we're dealing with when we talk about AA (or NA) is a group that treats a chemical dependency by spiritual means. Their own statistics show that this doesn't necessarily work, even most of the time, and as I said above, it can and often does result in simply trading one addiction for another.

I don't see how any good can come of that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

71. I on the other hand can count that number on one closed fist.

As the father of a gay teenage girl, I share your frustration with religion in that there is intolerance toward homosexuality. However, my daughter was schooled in a private Christian school and though she's gay, she still believes there is a power higher than herself and that someday the church will see the error of it's ways. I could not have been blessed with a jewel more precious than she is.

"Their own statistics show..." I can't find that statement pertinent due to the fact that the very name of the organization is "Anonymous". Where do the statistics you refer to come from? Can you show me where you get that information? Or is what you're telling me purely anecdotal? I am really curious about this as I've seen numerous people on this thread use the same argument but no one has provided one iota of empirical data to back up their claim.

I never said I was an addict, nor did I say I was in recovery. I've attended meetings out of curiosity, other times because it was mandated because of a DUI, and have accompanied more than a few acquaintances to offer personal support. I have no qualms with AA whatsoever.

"Finding God" doesn't necessarily equal addiction. You get that don't you? The faithful are not addicts just because you say they are.

[Dorian Gray]

115. Addiction is impossible

to treat successfully "most of the time." There is no proven successful way to get off of alcohol or drugs. It takes a combination of determination and will power from the addict, plus a combination of other factors which is unique to each addict. My husband is two years sober, and he is not a regular AA attendee. He has gone to counseling, and he does attend AA meetings in the summer (when he is not in school), but he is not an active participant. Religion has played a part in his recovery, but it is what works for him, and he knows many other people who were not religious who have recovered using their own methods.

I think AA is a tool for many to use that may aid them in recovering from their addictions, but it has to be used in conjunction with a desire to kick the habit. And it isn't for everyone, but I'm extraordinarily uncomfortable with disparaging a non-profit that is cheap/free for addicts. It's a tool that is open to everyone who has an addiction, and the steps are really helpful if someone takes them to heart.

[pipi_k]

244. Exactly!!

It's free.

It's helped millions of people get their lives back.

Just because it advocates using a Higher Power that some choose to call God, that's no reason for people to trash the program.

Shit...I'm an Agnostic/Atheist from way back. I used to belong to an ACoA group to deal with how my dad's alcoholism had affected my life. I had no problem with finding a Higher Power whom I chose NOT to call God.

My life was such a mess...I don't even know where I'd be now if I hadn't gone to those meetings.



PS...congratulations to your husband for two years sobriety! :)

[TexasObserver]

107. Indeed, religion is only another addiction.

And like most religions, it tries to sell its "we're the only way" logic to all takers. Those who drink the kool aid swear by it.

[Tutankhamun]

54. It's not just the overtly religious nature of the cult that's objectionable.

All of the scientific/medical research shows that AA is ineffective. AA is dangerously ineffective.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. How do you come to this conclusion? Please point me to the information you used to make your

decision.

Thanks in advance.

[Why Syzygy]

192. Statistically it isn't any more effective than any other method or no method at all

Accurate statistics are hard to come by because of many factors, such as anonymity and dishonesty, but most studies reveal that it only has about a 2.5 percent success rate for over 5 years of sobriety. Some statistics have it as low as .01 percent.
http://www.alternatives-for-alcoholism.com/alcoholics-anonymous.html

Critics of the 12 step program such as Stanton Peele generally refer to a success rate that tops out at 5%--a figure often refuted by organizations such as AA.

# Of those in their first month of AA meetings, 26% will still be attending at he end of that year.
# Of those in their fourth month of AA meeting attendance (i.e. have stayed beyond 90-days) 56% will still be attending AA at the end of that year.
# The 2004 Survey showed an increase in the length of sobriety over the 2001 Survey (as has every triennial survey since 1983).
# As of the 2004 Survey, long-term AA sobriety was so prevalent that the "Greater Than Five Years" range of previous surveys was subdivided into: 5-10 Years (14%) , >10 Years (36%), > 5 Years (50%).
http://www.12step.com/statistics.html

Alcoholism is in the middle. The Harvard Medical School reported that in the long run, the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics is slightly over 50 percent. That means that the annual rate of spontaneous remission is around 5 percent.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

[TexasObserver]

211. Thanks for this important data on this issue.

There's a wealth of info for anyone who cares to educate him or herself about the topic. Some people take the approach you and I do. We look at all aspects of the treatment of addiction, and read until we feel a level of understanding of what works and how well it works. Others rely almost exclusively on their personal experience. I prefer the logical method to the subjective method. Sometimes a person has success because it's just the right time and right set of circumstances. They get sober when they finally commit to being sober.

[cabbage08]

64. Source please

Verifiable, not the everybody says BS

[spiritual_gunfighter]

76. I do know alot about addiction

I am an alcoholic/drug addict who went to AA for a number of years and at the time it helped. Over the course of 4 years I noticed a lot of things that bothered me about AA a lot of things that you could classify as "cult mentality". Most of the people that had been around AA for a number of years talked the same and from what I could gather thought the same as well. They shunned people who had relapsed, people who they claimed were their good friends, if someone in a meeting questioned the merits of the program or if it was working for them, the usual response was you aren't "working it". Like I said I have struggled with addictions and in the last few years I had relapsed and really gone down hill. I decided to give AA another try because I was desperate for help. I went to a meeting and it was all the same stuff that turned me off in the first place. As an atheist I was made to feel like I wasnt working hard enough to accept God, call it a higher power if you wish but when you say the Lord's Prayer at the end of every meeting it is God, and a Christian God at that. I think it is very hypocritical for an organization to claim it has no religious affiliation to say a Christian prayer as practice at the end of every meeting. If you get sober through AA that is great but there are many people who never go to AA and stay sober. So far I am one of them, but I am always vigilant. I just choose not to align myself with an organization which has every appearance of a religious cult.

[Junkdrawer]

171. 21 years here....

Look, I spent 10 years trying to get sober my way. No soap. Then I decided to work AA on AA's terms and I've been sober 21 years.

[stillcool]

183. I never would have made it...

My last runaway was to Florida, where I finally ran out of gas, and considered giving up the drugs and the drinking. I was so fortunate to end up there. Great meetings..24/7. Something for everyone. What a life.

[nykym]

15. It does work if you want it

I had my last drink on Jan. 28th 1986. I admit my life has changed for the better. I don't go to meetings anymore but know I can if I feel the need. The deity you choose to call your higher power is up to you. A friend chose his dog, which we all know is god spelled backwards. The only requirement is that you want to stop drinking. And to all those who think they can do it alone - good for you. Just remember wherever you go there you are!

[sutz12]

16. There are a lot of misconceptions about AA and the 12 step programs in general..

One of the biggest is the whole "proselytizing" thing. Someone realy in touch with the program knows that this is a bozo nono of the highest order. It violates the 11th Tradition. Most of us probably know quite a few AA members, but don't know of their association with the group, because of that. "Our public relations policy is based on attraction, rather than promotion."

As for "how it works" your final paragraph actually lays it out fairly well. In the program, active steps to improve one's life are thoroughly encouraged. The whole "confession and absolution" is one path to moving on and letting go of the past. Amends help to alleviate the feelings of guilt and shame. But the goal is always to take care of the past and let go of it. Remembering the past is only to remind oneself of where you've been so you are motivated to not go back. "We will not regret the past, nor wish to shut the door on it."

There really ins't anything passive about it. It requires work, real work examining one's faults and trying to improve one's own habits and overcome them. The peer group provides support and guidance. It appears cult-like, and I guess many groups overdo the "religious" aspect. Personally, I find "spiritual" support in the interaction with fellow travelers. Overly religious types get little support from me, I have no rapport with proselytizers of any stripe. The more "Christian" style prayers used stem from the fact that the Christian meme was the dominant religious culture of 20th Century America. That and the fact that AA has roots in the Oxford group, a noted Catholic rehabilitation movement that goes way back.

BTW, AA doesn't keep real records. Any stats presented for them tend to be based on surveys rather than real patient records.

[ismnotwasm]

17. Oh, for fucks sake.

This shit again? Don't like AA? Don't fucking go. Court ordered? Shouldn't have been fucking drunk driving assholes. Do your time and Refuse To Go. Or, sign your own god dam court slip. They're rarely checked.


As far as evidence based, no it's not scientific. As far as being a cult. No it ain't. It's a fucking anarchy. You don't have to believe in God, you don't have to believe you're powerless, you don't have to do shit.

So, know many alcoholics or drug addicts? Really, really think that self esteem and personal empowerment going to help them stop using? I'll be sure and tell the next dying junkie I care for that. I'll let the ones who can't get on the transplant list because they can't stop drinking, that if they only had that proper counselor, the right therapy, the right medication, they'd be able to stop drinking. The fact those many of them have tried that shit, AND IT DIDN'T WORK well we'll just ignore that.

What ever helps an addict to clean up and get their lives together is ok in my book. If it's not AA, then Rational recovery, SOS, or working one's fucking Zen. These people break my heart and I've watched far too many of them die.

BTW, These threads are guaranteed flame wars. Fun, huh? Dancing on the fucking graves of the dead. Jesus.

[BurtWorm]

19. Whether you like it or not, people are going to criticize AA.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

;)

[ismnotwasm]

50. They should criticize it

It's not a solution for every body with alcoholism. People *IN* AA criticize it.

But in my experience, folks that freak out about the God thing know just enough about AA to fuck it up. I usually don't bother reading these things, I'm not sure why I read this one to tell you the truth.

[peace13]

129. It is hard for people who are willing to accept religion thrown into public projects to understand....

someone who is opposed to it. I am 200% behind programs that help addiction, hunger and homelessness but when they attempt to tie services to religion I take offense. That is just the way it is. I do not want to have pray at the free lunch in order to get a meal. If people want that they can go to church, but there you have it, so many of our dollars have gone to 'faith based services' that it is very hard to find help without a huge helping of religion. I wonder how you would feel if AA had it's foot in a faith that you may not be familiar or comfortable with. You may think differently about this issue.

[stillcool]

29. I guess if you yourself don't need it..

you're qualified to judge those that do.

[Tutankhamun]

56. Tell a dying junkie he doesn't need Scientology's "purification rundown" in order to quit drugs.

Convenient for you if you don't need to stop using drugs or drinking, but there are people whose lives hav e ben saved by the Cult of Scientology's purification rundown.

But of course there isn't ay scientific evidence of Scientology's effectiveness at helping people quit their addictions. They don't keep records. Scientology's addiction program is voluntary. Nobody is forced to go to it so don't criticize what you don't have experience with.

And one need not believe in the galactic overlord Xenu to be helped by the program. Let's not dance on the graves of people whose "reactive minds" were so filled by "engrams" implanted by the galactic overlord that te couldn't quit their addictions.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

78. AA is not the only way to get sober

People in the rooms and outside the rooms die of addictions everyday. Feel free to believe that if you dont go to AA you are going to die from addiction, I am doing fine and I know lots of others that are as well. You say you dont have to believe in God to be in AA and that is true, but why say the Lord's Prayer at every meetings end. I have never been to a meeting (and I have been to many) where this wasn't the case.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. Leave the meeting before the Lord's Prayer is spoken. n/t

[spiritual_gunfighter]

101. No thanks n/t

[TexasObserver]

108. Did we mention the anger and hatred the zealots exhibit?

[ellisonz]

274. Exactly.

[JVS]

113. Just because you drove drunk does not give the state the right to make you participate in a religion

[Dorian Gray]

204. No it doesn't

but "Just because you drove drunk" does allow the state to force you into treatment.

[H2O Man]

220. The state doesn't actually "force"

people into treatment. They have a choice. If they find treatment unacceptable, they have the right to choose another legal consequence. And no one has religion forced upon them while incarcerated.

[Kajsa]

224. That's true,H20 Man!

Another alternative to treatment is jail.

[H2O Man]

20. Interesting OP/thread.

A few thoughts:

First, I can only speak of the area I come from, which follows the state policies for a coordinated treatment of alcohol-related offensees, including things ranging from domestic abuse to motor vehicle violations. In the past, some courts indeed mandated AA; however, as it is an anonymous group, enforcement of that order was, of course, difficult at best.

Today, the courts work with community-based services, including probation and substance abuse programs, to provide alternatives to incarceration. (There are also AA groups in jails and prisons, but that is another topic.) The "substance abuse" agencies usually do a pre-trial evaluation, and make a recommendation to the court. The recommendations usually are for either in-patient or out-patient treatment.

In-patient treatment certainly has some advantages. It also, in my humble opinion, has some disadvantages. Among them are things such as insurance carriers defining the length of treatment needed, as well as sometimes denying coverage for recommended treatment. More, there are people in need of treatment who do not have insurance, and who are not able to get assistance -- the "working poor."

Likewise, out-patient treatment has pluses and minuses. One plus is that they can provide treatment to the working poor, and do so on a sliding scale that includes the potential for "no fee."

Substance abuse programs generally have a treatment plan to meet the individual's needs. One of the most interesting things about those with substance abuse problems is they often lack a social network, other than families and friends who they "party" with. Hence, the recommendation for "30 programs in 30 days" (or a variation there of, is intended in large part to provide a supportive setting for the personto fill those difficult early days of sobriety.

Odd as this may sound, those with substance abuse issues often lie. Shocking, I know. The most common lie is one that they not only tell others, but also tell themselves: "I can control my drinking (snorting, etc)." The concept of "powerlessness" in AA and AA-like programs simply means, "Baloney. You are not controlling your substance abuse. It is controlling you." Many people with substance abuse issues find this offensive -- far more offensive, in fact, than drinking that next drink, or telling the truth.

There are individuals who do not benefit from AA. The reasons vary. But most counselors and therapists, if they are aware a person is offended by the religious tone of some groups, will direct them towards others. AA involves a lot of people, with varied backgrounds. If a person is invested in taking advantage of what it offers, there is a group for them.

No single treatment works for everybody. In decades of work in human services -- including at an "alcohol and drug" service -- I think that the best option, for most people, is a combination of things. Sometimes in-patient, and usually including out-patient and AA. But there are certainly people who are able to put their lives in order without these services, including some who never appear in court.

[hfojvt]

23. some of those stats are not very meaningful

AA, they say, is a failure because 93% of new attendees leave the program after six months. Isn't that a little bit like saying that the medicine does not work because some people quit taking it?

Does it work if people stick with it? Is there something 'science based' that works better?

It seems like the detractors just want to say 'the medicine tastes bad' and imagine that there MUST be some other medicine that would work just as well.

[zipplewrath]

26. There's always been alot of discomfort.

From the very beginning of my days being around social service, there has been a real discomfort with AA and the 12 step culture. There always was precious little science, and alot of anecdote about the programs. What first struck me is when I found out that in much of Europe, AA is NOT the predominate substance abuse treatment model. It is more common to use some sort of behavior modification and it typically won't use abstinence. The flip side of all this, and where much of the discomfort does reside is that there aren't alot of treatment programs that will show spectacular success rates, if success is measured by recitivism. 75% is fairly typical for any of them. Some folks just flat out say that "relapse is part of recovery". When asked to quantify it, I've been given answers like 7 times. My problem with such statements, and it applies to 12 step programs as well, then how does one really determine that any program "helped"? Rates like that hardly correlate well and really, as the article suggested, aren't all that different than the rates of people who basically "self treat". I knew a guy that got his PhD and then went into substance abuse treatment (a residential facility). He spent the better part of 10 years and finally just quit. He quit the whole field. He became convinced that there was no correlation between treatment and recovery (cure, whatever term you want) and that he was just basically a nurse waiting to see if the patient healed themselves.

[Flabbergasted]

27. This Blog is bull in my estimation. I think this is someone has a problem with AA or

more likely christianity or is an atheist. If you click on the data this guy/girl supposedly gets their info from the conclusions are just not supported.

The wik article states to some extent that not everyone attending AA is successful but I think that's pretty obvious. Some of the studies refute their position. The other link provides no evidence that supports their conclusion.

I didn't read everything carefully.

[old mark]

28. Untrue. There are as many interpretations of the concept of "god"

as there are individuals in the program. There is NO standardized "religion", in fact there are provisions made for individuals such as myself who do not believe in supernatural beings.
Just as in "real" American life, we thinkers are seriously outnumbered by those who believe in magic, but the program works well enough for mee that I have over 21 years without alcohol or drugs and even 18 years without tobacco behind me as of today. I don't understand why people are threatened by AA and 12 step groups, and I am really against this crap.
I don't believe in spirits, astrology or spooks, but I was able to make good use of AA to better my life. If you have a problem with that, the problem is yours, not mine, but don't lead others away from a program that may save them from years of agony because you don't approve of some people who are using that program in was you don't like.

mark

[mainer]

30. Neither religious nor alcoholic here -- but I think AA works for many folks

I have a number of acquaintances who swear by it. So what if there's proselytizing? If it helps someone stay sober and keeps his life on track, then we shouldn't knock it. To combat the seductive lure of alcohol, maybe it takes a bit of cultish brainwashing.

[Critters2]

35. Can't speak for AA, because I'm not alcoholic and have never been to

an AA meeting. But I have been helped with my depression and anxiety through Emotions Anonymous. I attend at least one meeting a week, and more when I'm not doing well. Here's my take on it: it's basically a form of cognitive behavioral therapy. I have all these slogans, mottoes, "Just for Today"s that I keep in my head and pull out when I need them. Things about both my strengths and weaknesses, about taking one day at a time (probably the best advice I've ever been given-- not a natural way to think for a person with anxiety issues), etc. I have the experience of others to fall back on, when my own ways of thinking and behaving are not healthy.

Here's an example. Yesterday, I had a meeting with a person who pushes all my buttons, and knows it. We have a history of tension, if not outright conflict. I wanted the meeting to go well, and to come away feeling good about the project and myself--and maybe even her. So, I called my sponsor a couple of hours ahead of time, and did an "inventory". I went through all of my strengths that I could call upon to have a good meeting, all the weaknesses that might get in the way, and a strategy for using my strengths to overcome my weaknesses. And yes, I talked about turning the event over to my HP. And the meeting went well. I felt the tension, but moved past it. Again, these are basically the strategies of any cbt program, except I'm not paying some damn therapist $150 an hour for this help, and the person who is helping hasn't just read about these issues in books.

I had an argument with a group leader once about whether atheists and agnostics can work the program. I argued that they can--he argued that one's HP must be God. My take on it is that one's HP can be the collective experience of everyone who's gone through the program, written the literature, added to and removed from the lit based on experience, and comes to meetings to support one another. One can use all of that collected wisdom without believing in God.

I don't think 12 step programs are the only method for dealing with problems. Indeed, to protect my own anonymity and be able to share freely at meetings, I don't refer parishioners or others who come to me to EA. I refer them to Recovery, International, which is a free, self-help program more obviously using cognitive behavioral therapy. Recovery is non-religious, and has a good track record.

I think both programs are basically about re-training one's patterns of thinking and behaving. What I know most certainly is that 6 years in therapy only drained my bank account and actually made my anxiety worse. Then, one day, I walked into an EA meeting out of curiosity, and in a sense that there must be something better than what I was doing. That was 11 years ago. I now take no meds for depression or anxiety. I don't have a therapist (and don't trust them, based on my experience), and get all the help I need attending one meeting a week, and dropping $5 in the basket each time. Oh. and here's an interesting piece of info--my sponsor, who's been in the program for 20 years, is a clinical psychologist and teaches at a university. Yet, with me he does step work and uses EA lit.

So, it works for me, and that's all I can tell anyone.

[JVS]

112. Out of curiousity (i.e. I have no impulse toward joining a 12 step), what's your view on them and...

syncretism? I was checking out my denomination's webpage for a position on this, and they kind of waffled on it saying that "This Commission specifically noted that no concept of divine redemption or forgiveness, salvation or eternal life is promulgated or expressed by AA. No member is permitted to urge his/her opinions or beliefs upon another, though he/she is permitted to testify to his/her personal faith. No rituals require individual members to hold to religious tenets that are contrary to the Christian Gospel." but then goes on to say that on the chapter level (what is the name of an AA unit?) there might be some spiritual hanky panky going on and that even if there isn't, if there is the appearance of such, then perhaps the member should consider what they might appear to be endorsing (I find the idea of negatively impacting the community by implicitly endorsing false doctrine to be somewhat amusing personally, but some of my people are uptight on this kind of thing). So I guess what I want to know is:

1. Might I have to pray with these people?
2. Might I be expected to agree with a salvational theology?
3. How many atheists do you generally see, and are they comfortable with the program?

I use atheists kind of as a coal-mine canary, because usually if an atheist is uncomfortable with a group's discourse, that shows me that it's too much of a religion for me to be able to participate in without knowing that it is in line with the Church's doctrine.

[Critters2]

139. Well, to answer your three questions:

1) My weekly meeting always begins and ends with the Serenity Prayer. This isn't troublesome to me, since the person credited with first having written this prayer, Reinhold Niebuhr, is of my faith tradition (generally considered the most important theologian in UCC history). It's a simple prayer for guidance, nothing more, nothing less.

Apparently, some meetings end with the Lord's Prayer, according to others in this thread. Maybe that happens in AA, but I have never seen that at an EA meeting, and while I have one meeting I think of as my home meeting, I've been to a lot of different meetings.

There are some other prayers in the literature. There's a daily meditation/affirmation book called _Today_ that includes a short paragraph of an EA member's recovery experience, a short (usually one line) prayer asking that God help you keep that experience in mind throughout the day, and an affirmation--again, one line, usually a sort of lesson for the day. But this is not a required part of the program. Neither is the Serenity Prayer. One can easily sit quietly while the prayer is said.

So, no. You are invited to pray with others, but you don't have to.

2. I suppose it can be argued that you have to agree to a salvational theology. The 12 steps are basically a sin/repentance/renewal process. One admits to one's faults (sin), one takes responsibility and makes amends, one feels a sense of forgiveness, one moves on with a commitment to live a new way of life. It seems like a pretty classic soteriologic method. It works with my Reformed tradition. As we say, "guilt, grace, and gratitude". I see it through that lens because I'm a person of faith. But one can simply do one's inventory with one's sponsor and not see it in a religious way. The program does use "God" in of the steps: "were completely ready to have God remove all these defects of character", and "admitted to ourselves, God, and another person the exact nature of our wrongs". I actually think it's unfortunate that the steps use this language, because it can be off-putting. I don't know why the term "higher power" is not used in those steps, as it is elsewhere in the program. Again, this works for me, as a Christian. But I can see how it might not work for others.

3. There is one atheist, that I know of, in my regular meeting. When I was in Champaign, there were 2 or 3. The one in my current meeting has been there since before me (I've been in this meeting a year and a half), and says he's been in EA for 18 years. There may be others in my meeting, but only this man has said so. My meeting also includes a Roman Catholic nun and a Conservative Jewish woman, as well as others whose faith traditions I do not know. Again, I can easily see how one could use the program and simply see the collected experience of those who've gone before as one's Higher Power, but then, that sort of thinking strongly influences my theological work. Maybe it's not as obvious to others.

I can see how some in your faith tradition would be uncomfortable with 12 step groups. As I've said, I see it as primarily a behavior mod/cognitive behavioral program. If I hadn't happened upon EA first, I'd be just as comfortable with Recovery, which makes no mention of faith. Recovery is also a cognitive behavioral program. I may have the advantage over others, in that I am trained in client-centered therapy and nonviolent communication, which helps me to see the cbt parts of the program, and as we say "leave the rest". For those without my background, the religious language and imagery may play a larger role in the recovery process. For me, taking inventories of my behavior and feelings, talking myself down from feelings and actions using the literature's slogans, and other tools are hugely helpful. These would be helpful without the faith component. When I discovered Recovery, I considered doing that instead of EA, but I like my meeting and my sponsor, and the program really has worked for me. I'm not taking any meds, am not hooked on some therapist at $150 an hour, and am doing well. EVeryone around me benefits from this, including my church. So, it's all good for me.

YMMV.

[JVS]

197. Thanks for the info.

[alarimer]

41. I like this article- I have always been suspicious of AA or similar programs.

Because there is not a lot of scientific evidence that they work. There is a huge failure rate. I prefer science-based treatment options for everything, including addiction. And I think courts should as well.

There is a lot of preaching when it comes to addiction, about weakness and sin (though they do not call it that) but not a lot of evidence that this approach works. I really dislike the preachiness of AA and its adherents. Show me the evidence that it not simply trading on addiction for another (God or some "spirituality").

I really think that cognitive behavioral therapy would probably work better than any of these 12 Step programs and it lacks the cult-like aspects of it.

[book_worm]

42. Whatever! If it works for some it's fine by me. What do I care?

[ThomWV]

43. 12 years sober now and AA helped a great deal. I simply ignored the Higher Power part.

In fact of the 12 steps I only completed 1 and yet here I am, over 12 years later and still sober. I attend a meeting now and then, just to see if there's anything I can do for anyone. You see AA is a very personal thing and sometimes you meet another alcoholic that can either help you or that you can help. That is not such a bad thing.

[BurtWorm]

60. I appreciate that it's very personal.

Congratulations on your sobriety.

:applause:

[Oeditpus Rex]

67. Kinda the same here

In fact, I stopped going to meetings a year or so in — not because of anything about the program, but because my sponsor was a dick. He tried to tell me I shouldn't hang out with my long-time friends because they drink. I was like, "The whole world drinks. I can't just hide from it, and even if I could, I don't think that's the way to do this."

As it turned out, my drinking friends were the best support network I could hope for.

Now it's going on 20 years, and I don't usually think, "I'm an alcoholic." I just say "I don't drink" because that's what it feels like.

I have nothing bad to say about AA in and of itself. I probably wouldn't have stopped drinking without it — certainly not when I did. But AA didn't keep me sober all these years — I did.

[Dorian Gray]

116. The only time i think it's acceptable to give up on your friends

are in extreme cases. My SIL who is an addict has a group of friends who are degenerate drunk/druggies. In her case, if she ever quit drinking (not likely) it would be entirely appropriate to dump her friends. When my husband quit drinking, however, our friends (who have been known to drink) were a great support network. Now we do things that don't involve alcohol all the time, but if we're out to dinner, they'll get their drinks. As they should. My husband would be uncomfortable if they didn't.

[RetroLounge]

119. I found that the ones who were true friends

are still here after 19 years, and the ones who were just there for the never-ending-party went elsewhere.

My first sponsor told me not to worry about my drinking friends, time would take care of that, and it did.

and you know, the day I decided to quit, the first one knocking at my door to support me was the guy I drank with my entire life. Go figure.

:hi:

RL

[Dorian Gray]

205. The same happened to my husband

There was a gang of three of them who drank as much as one another. One quit just last month (Fingers crossed that he's successful) and the other still drinks. But through my husband's process, they were both very supportive and they did all they could to encourage hubby NOT to drink. It was pretty awesome!

[Caliman73]

46. Whether AA works conclusively or not, it is the only truly affordable program

It is basically free, asking only for donations to help equip the meetings with literature and coffee. It is a support group run by lay people. For some, it is the only thing they can afford to do. I personally think that CBT, DBT, and other cognitive therapies would probably be more effective for short term abstinence and possibly longer term sobriety. I imagine that studies would support my assertion. The problem is that cognitive therapies are still under taught in psychology schools in favor of person centered approaches so there are relatively few trained Behavioral and Cognitive therapist practicing. Second, the cost for seeing a therapist for the length of time needed to develop skills of sobriety and abstinence from substance use is prohibitive. Most insurance plans will cover 3-10 sessions. A person who has been abusing substances for 5 to 10 years is not going to develop a lasting set of tools to deal with the substance abuse in 3 to 10 weeks. The least I have seen a therapist charge was $50 dollars per hour and that was a mediocre therapist. A better one charged $75 dollars per hour and that was a discounted rate. Typically we are talking $120 per hour so a good 6 months is going to cost you $3000 dollars for the therapy alone. If you have to detox, then that adds substantially to the cost.

Perhaps AA is not clinically effective, but it is affordable and accessible to all.

[raccoon]

124. Excellent point, especially since so many Americans aren't insured, and even if they are,

most group insurances don't pay that well for therapy.

[Critters2]

140. Some of the loudest complaining I've heard about 12 step groups

has come from therapists. I suspect they don't like the competition.

[Caliman73]

165. I have never heard any complaining from therapist

I have worked in and with the mental health field for over 17 years and I have not heard that complaint. There is some problem with some of the rigidity that people in recovery adopt when using the 12 step programs, but I would chalk that up to the addict trying to have some control in their environment. There is really no competition between therapy and self help programs so the perception that there is must come from 12 step advocates. Any therapist worth their salt would not disparage another treatment modality as long as it was benefiting the individual. We would encourage people in our programs to utilize self help programs in addition to the therapeutic services we provided. The problem as the other poster and I said, is that mental health services are still underfunded and under utilized.

[RetroLounge]

51. Here we go again, more bullshit and lies...

See, the good thing is, as an Alcoholic and a member of AA, your opinion means exactly jack-shit to me and my recovery.

I'm not religious. I don't believe in God. I don't witness. I don't recruit. I don't pray. And it costs nothing.

And guess what? Next month I'm sober 19 years, and still go to AA meetings.

So yeah, it just doesn't work.

So enjoy your superiority and your uninformed rant, and I truly hope that you never go thru even a slice of the hell I did to get to AA.

RL

[BurtWorm]

59. Hey, Retro Lounge, good for you that you're 19 years sober.

:applause:

If it works for you, three cheers.

It doesn't work for everybody, I'm sure you know. And it isn't, nor should it be, the only model for overcoming addiction. That's my reason for posting this, to challenge what seems to me to be the prevailing opinion in the recovery field that joining AA really is all there is to getting sober. It certainly is good that so many people are helped by it. I've known a few who swear by 12 step programs. The media contribute to the misconception that AA is all there is. It simply is not. There may (or may not) even be more effective programs, but we don't hear about them because AA is outclasses them all in organization and self-publicity.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

72. Congratulations on 19 years

I was in AA for a number of years myself, and I readly admit that it helped me at the time. I question why people who are in AA immediately get defensive and combative when anyone questions AA. Throws red flags up for me. I went back to a meeting recently and it was great, but as an Atheist who was going to have a hard time with the second step I was totally thrown when an organization who claims to have no religious affiliation, gets everyone in a circle at the end of the meeting and says the Lord's Prayer. I knew this was the practice but I had a moment of "spiritual clarity" at that meeting during the Lord's Prayer and never went back. I cant stand hypocritical organizations like AA who claim to be welcoming to agnostics and even have a chapter in the big book on them then say the Lord's Prayer, a Christian prayer at the end of the meeting. More power to you for getting sober through AA, but just because someone has a problem with the program and gets sober by other means, doesn't mean you should trash someone who does. It is very telling when AA's get defensive about the program.

[EFerrari]

79. Mom has 34 years in July. 34 years ago, neither of us would have given her

that long to live. :)

[AngryOldDem]

86. Congratulations on your 19 years.

I know many people who would be in jail -- or perhaps dead -- today without the help and support of AA.

[TexasObserver]

126. AA only works for a small % of people.

AA works for a small % of people, and unfortunately, some of those people cannot fathom that their personal way out of exessive drinking is simply the one that worked for them. Also unfortunate, a person who is angry and belligerent doesn't change simply because they stop drinking. They're the same person, just not consumed by excessive drinking. Former President Bush is a good example of that.

[RetroLounge]

137. Whatever...

:rofl:

RL

[Realityhack]

259. Glad you have been sober for so long.

That is no reason to throw science out the window and rely on anecdotal evidence or laugh at those who chose not to.

[w8liftinglady]

62. you'd be surprised at how many atheists and agnostics go to AA

I have been sober 6 months(this time).AA has been a lifesaver for me.No one judges.We've all hit bottom in some way,or we wouldn't be there.

[NMDemDist2]

187. hey you

great to see ya

:hug:

[coinstar queen]

63. Thank you for addressing this issue, which affects many.

My feeling is that to stress powerlessness is contradictory because obviously, the addict has to have some self-control when changing his/her behaviors. Even when they talk about a Higher Power, it is not total passivity. They expect the AA member to work the steps, etc.

However, whatever it takes to get people sober is all good in my book. Some people respond very favorably to this method. I know one such man who has been part of AA for almost 30 years and never back-slid.

[Kitty Herder]

73. Is there anything that really DOES help alcoholics and addicts?

I speak as the daughter of an alcoholic. I watched my father try over and over to defeat that beast. He was in inpatient rehab centers more times than I can count. He went to jail several times for DUIs. I remember going to AA meetings with him when I was just a little kid and AA always remained part of his life. He tried getting religion. Nothing worked. Nothing. But at least he kept trying to quit and he had long stretches of sobriety. I admire him for never giving up. He passed away five years ago, from a heart condition aggravated by his drinking.

[Warren DeMontague]

154. Yeah. Not drinking, etc. That's about it.

It's a tough road, no matter how it goes. I know people who have died and I know people who have stayed sober, both in and out of AA. It's always hard to get accurate numbers, but I think the percentages on long term (5yrs +) sobriety are small, whether or not people are in a program. Long odds no matter what.

I'm very sorry for your loss. You have my condolences. :hug:

[EFerrari]

74. This article is sort of funny. Why not tell practicing alcoholics they can will themselves better?!

Has this freakin' guy ever MET a using alcoholic?!

He doesn't seem to know very much about the AA philosophy.

[madamesilverspurs]

81. AA does not claim and never has claimed

to be the only path to recovery. Far from it.

It is a spiritual program, not a religious one. There IS a very significant difference.

In my own home group there are people of just about every stripe: Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic. I've been in meetings with professed pagans, a couple of satanists and at least one Druid. We are a phenomenal bunch who manage to take great joy in our lives, in spite of the differences that would otherwise drive us apart. We celebrate the many flavors of our spirituality.

For those who have difficulty with "the God thing," we encourage them to keep searching for something that works for them. AA isn't the only house on the block, but we have been the place where millions of people have succeeded in recovery. That so many fail to recover is evidence of the deadliness of addiction, not an indictment of a program that has been borrowed by hundreds of groups that deal with other issues; as one researcher put it, 'counterfeiters don't print Monopoly money.' AA has never been stingy in sharing the steps, and has never ever insisted that others must use them.

I rejoice in my recovery, as does my family, as do my friends and co-workers. Every other avenue failed for me, AA worked. It still does. As our Big Book states, I "have been given the power to help others", and I intend to spend the rest of my life in that endeavor.

My alcoholism is not subject to my approval. It is what it is. That said, my recovery is not subject to anyone else's approval. If it isn't good enough for you, that's your choice. MY choice, on the other hand, is to continue on the path on which I set my feet in 1978. Best thing I ever did. By far. I'm happy in my life. Are you happy in yours?

[RetroLounge]

167. Please don't confuse the haters with facts...

This thread pops up every time there is a DU fundraiser.

Not sure why, it's an odd connection, but it does.

RL

[psychmommy]

83. i work with people who are in all states of alcoholism or drug

dependency. if you work the program it works. if you attend only because you're court ordered then it doesn't work. please don't bash anyone else's success. there are social networks set up for recovering folks. you have to learn how to live in a straight world if you are addicted you already know you are powerless over this substance. if something else works for you great, then share but, don't put others down. the funny thing is, i was in a christian counseling course and the teacher and students were all anti aa/na. i have seen it work and i have seen people stop working the program and go back to using. aa/na works but it should be your choice.

[Critters2]

89. Yeah. One of the fundie churches here has some other program

for treating addiction that's supposed to be Christian. Some consider AA too Christians, others not Christian enough. Which probably means they're getting it right.

Actually, there are two churches here that offer "Christian" alternatives to AA. One is Reformers Unanimous: http://reformu.com/

The other, Celebrate Recovery, is licensed by Rick Warren's church, allowing other churches to use it. Here's a link: http://www.celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=4

Too Christian. Not Christian enough.

Me, I'll walk the middle way, and keep working the 12 steps.

[psychmommy]

174. keep on walking your walk.

i hate when people try to piss on aa/na. i am gonna check your links, thank you.

[Jankyn]

84. Sober AA members get upset...

...when AA is dissed because it's working for them at that moment. And, hey, whatever's working for you right NOW has to be the only thing that WILL work, because it's the last thing you tried.

If you believe that your life depends on staying clean and sober, AND you believe that the only thing keeping you clean and sober right now is AA, you'd get a little (uh, make that a LOT) defensive about it.

That said, I think that Science-Based Medicine post makes some interesting points. As a long-time sober (23 years) occasional AA member who has become a Buddhist (and really doesn't like the way that traditional Christianity, including a conversion experience, is part of the AA experience), I find a lot of negatives in some meetings. But, unlike the shivering, shaking, scared-to-death-he's-gonna-die newcomer, I can afford to be picky about my meetings.

Seems like the one thing everybody agrees on is that stopping drinking/drugging is easier with support. Maybe we could find a way to do that without the Christian trappings.

And maybe we--including all us sober AA members--ought to acknowledge that a whole lot of people are still living miserably and dying of uncontrolled alcoholism. Rather than clinging to one model that works for some people, couldn't we research alternative approaches (and use--gasp!--science to help), with an eye to some approaches that work for more than a handful of people?

Here's my bird's-eye view: Out of roughly a hundred people who actually come to AA and really try it, 10 of 'em get a year. Out of those 10, one will be around and still sober at five years. The longer you're sober, the better the odds get, but still, those are pretty crappy odds for a condition that makes your life (and the lives of those around you) miserable.

So let's put some energy into something better. And for crying out loud, if you can't stop drinking, keep asking for help. Someone's bound to listen.

[Critters2]

88. As I said upthread, I know there are other programs that work.

I refer people to Recovery, International on a regular basis. The issue isn't whether there are other programs that work, but whether 12-step programs deserve the bashing they get on a regular basis here. I doubt that Recovery, or other voluntary programs have better rates than AA. We're talking about addiction. The very nature of the condition is to continue using. I haven't read the whole article, but would love to hear what works better.

And how much some "therapist" is charging for it.

[Warren DeMontague]

196. It's not a question of what works "better", it's that for some people, the 12 steps don't cut it.

LSR meetings are just as free as AA meetings.

Pointing out that there are alternatives, many alternatives (yes, Jack Trimpey of RR is selling a book. For money. I also remember paying some money for something called "As Bill Sees It", a long long time ago) and that those alternatives work for some people just like AA works for some people, that there is nothing inherently wrong with seeking out alternatives, particularly for those of us who are Atheists or otherwise put off by the "spiritual aspect" of AA-- that is not bashing the 12 steps.

Like I said downthread, at the end of the day it's not about who has the capital-W Way, it's about staying sober, at least in my book. Which is free.

[FloridaJudy]

111. I must be the lucky one in a hundred.

It's been over five years since I took my last drink or drug. While I have some qualms about the program myself, I doubt I could have done it without a lot of support, particularly in that first year. Yes there are some AA members - I call them "Big Book Thumpers" - who fervently believe that AA is the only way to get and stay sober, but most of us aren't that dogmatic.

Each group also has its own flavor and way of doing things. I wound up going to a lot a mainly GLBT meetings, even though I'm hopelessly straight, because the members were more tolerant of non-standard spiritual paths (I'm a Buddhist myself), didn't insist on the Lord's Prayer, and were okay with others referring to their Higher Power as "She". I also met a lot of Atheists/Agnostics there, some with decades of sobriety.

For some of us it works. For some it doesn't. But I'd encourage anyone with a drinking or drugging problem to give it a try. You might get lucky.

[Kajsa]

168. Whatever works for someone,

helping him/her stay sober is what matters,imho.

I believe Bill Wilson said it himself,

" There are many paths to recovery."

Welcome to DU, Jankyn!

:hi:

[TexasObserver]

190. Thank you for a very sane post and approach.

Your next to last paragraph should be read by all, for it is compelling:

"Here's my bird's-eye view: Out of roughly a hundred people who actually come to AA and really try it, 10 of 'em get a year. Out of those 10, one will be around and still sober at five years. The longer you're sober, the better the odds get, but still, those are pretty crappy odds for a condition that makes your life (and the lives of those around you) miserable."

AA does work for some people, and it does help some stay sober for at least some period of time. But it is only one approach, and it simply does not work with many alcoholics/addicts. What constitutes salvation for one person is often not the same for others. Your approach to AA is one that is logical.

[Touchdown]

87. Funny the denials of faith based AA, when homosexuals anonymous is an offshoot.

It wouldn't be if GAWD wasn't so involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay

Amazing how the approach of curing "homosexual brokenness" is virtually the same as AA, NA, etc...

We admitted that we were powerless over our homosexuality and that our emotional lives were unmanageable.
We came to believe the love of God, who forgave us and accepted us in spite of all that we are and have done.
We learned to see that there was purpose in our suffering, and that our failed lives were under God's control, who is able to bring good out of trouble.
We came to believe that God had already broken the power of homosexuality and that He could therefore restore our true personhood.
We came to perceive that we had accepted a lie about ourselves, an illusion that had trapped us in a false identity.
We learned to claim our true reality that as mankind, we are part of God's heterosexual creation, and that God calls us to rediscover that identity in Him through Jesus Christ as our faith perceives Him.
We resolved to entrust our lives to our loving God and to live by faith, praising Him for our new unseen identity, confident that it would become visible to us in God's good time.
As forgiven people free from condemnation, we made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves, determined to root out fear, hidden hostility, and contempt for the world.
We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs and humbly asked God to remove our defects of character.
We willingly made direct amends wherever wise and possible to all people we had harmed.
We determined to live no longer in fear of the world, believing that God's victorious control turns all that is against us into our favor, bringing advantage out of sorrow and order out of disorder.
We determined to mature in our relationships with men and women, learning the meaning of a partnership of equals, seeking neither dominance over people nor servile dependency on them.
We sought thorough confident praying, and the wisdom of Scripture for an ongoing growth in our relationship with God and a humble acceptance of His guidance for our lives.
Having had a spiritual awakening, we tried to carry this message to homosexual people with a love that demands nothing and to practice these steps in all our lives' activities, as far as lies within us.
Last modified 1 March 1997.

http://home.messiah.edu/~chase/h/14steps.htm

Anything some goody goody deems not good for your soul, these are the steps they will force you to take to be more presentable to them.:eyes:

[Critters2]

90. Those are so NOT the 12 steps. Not even close.

There's nothing in the 12 steps about having accepted a lie about oneself, a purpose in one's suffering, a false identity, or being restored to personhood. In fact, the major changes made to the 12 steps in these are pretty obviously because the original twelve steps ones didn't work in "curing" homosexuality. So they invented these--which won't work, either.

The 12 steps aren't about becoming what you aren't, but about accepting who you are, facing the mistakes you've made, and finding strength to be the best you can in spite of, but along with, your faults.

What you've cited is not a traditional 12 step program. Nice try, though.

[Touchdown]

109. Your right. I tried, but failed to make you get the point.

If it wasn't faith based in the first place, then it wouldn't be co-opted by those "loving and concerned" bigots over at HA.

[Critters2]

133. They realized that the real 12 steps ask us to accept who we are.

Their goal is to change who people are in their deepest place, not to accept it. Thus, they had to change the 12 steps. What didn't work was for you to complain about the 12 steps, and then post something that is not the 12 steps you claimed to be complaining about.

I'm a strong advocate for glbt rights and equality. I'm also a member of a 12 step program. Oh, and the faith-based thing doesn't bother me, because I'm a person of faith.

[Touchdown]

150. If it doesn't bother you, then my message wasn't directed at you.

I'll leave it up to you to decide why it was important to respond.

[drmeow]

91. Those of us who have done research

on chemical dependency have known this for over 20 years.

[kwassa]

92. Usual rant of people who are clueless about AA.

The last two paragraphs of the OP reveal a titanic lack of knowledge about how the 12 steps work.

Ah, the ignorance. It gets so boring.

[Chulanowa]

93. My dad was a seriously alcoholic asshole

he put my mother and I through living hell, until the court ordered him into AA after a DUI.

After that he changed.

He became a seriously fundamentalist asshole who put my mother and I through a living hell.

[undergroundpanther]

95. mine too

He never went to AA. He stopped drinking after I begged mom to move out of the house when I was 13.Then when we came back to get tax forms signed he tried to kill her in front of me.We stayed away awhile .And he stayed sober for around a year .Than I was forced to move back in with him,when I was 15,I tried to run away,tried to admit myself, but no one listened, not even my shrink,that I was in terror..So a few years past that time, I was locked up in a psych ward again and he began drinking again because he had ass cancer.He died on April fools day 2 years or so after the cancer diagnosis and I was happy he was dead.The psych staff tried to insist I should be sad, but I was not sad.

Sometimes I think some assholes by their behavior are asking to die,and our stupid society won't let them die,so they ruin everyone else's lives around them until they die.


He was an asshole psychopath waste of skin. A dud.

[Chulanowa]

98. To quote my favorite fake game show, "Damn, you ARE grizzled!"

It was never that bad for us.

Hope it all turned out well for you. Watching two alcoholic parents duke it out on each other was all the incentive I needed to keep away from the stuff. Especially once I learned it's genetic.

[RetroLounge]

166. Yes, and that is all AA's fault

:eyes:

RL

[Chulanowa]

235. In his case, yes

An addictive personality will find something to become addicted to. In his case he went from alcohol to the Bible, with his AA group as dealer.

I have no idea how other AA groups are, and I understand lots of people have different experiences with the organization. THis is mine.

If you want to cram more words into my mouth though, could you douse them in some chocolate syrup?

[RetroLounge]

240. So how on earth is this AA's fault?

please explain.

AA is centrally located in NYC. Each group is autonomous.

Millions of people have been to AA, what percentg have become fundy bible thumpers, and how many of those are AA's fault, and of the rest, which are due to AA's failure to convert them into bible thumpers?

Oh, and please discuss personal responsibility here too in the context of his experience.

RL

[Chulanowa]

252. Where did I blame AA?

I think you need another twelve-step program for whatever hallucinogens you're on. 'Cause you're way out in motherfucking bat country, my friend.

[Name removed]

258. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

260. 2 posts up.

RL

[Chulanowa]

266. The part where I blame his addictive personality...

or where I ditch some blame on his particular group, while admitting that other groups are different and I'm not aware of how they work?

Seriously, easy on the mescal, Retro. That stuff'll make you puke yourself raw if you're not careful.

[RetroLounge]

268. Keep up the personal attacks, you look stupid

Yes, and that is all AA's fault?

and how did you answer? "In his case, yes"

So again, did you or did you not blame AA, no matter how you dissemble now?

Yeah, thought so...

RL

[Chulanowa]

272. Oh, okay

I figured you might have read the content of my posts rather than just the titles. My mistake. Carry on.

[RetroLounge]

269. Oh, and since it'll get deleted anyhow

_!_

RL

[ellisonz]

275. Mad circular logic.

Either there is an "AA" or there isn't. Pick one.

[undergroundpanther]

94. I find it uncanny

all the narcissism there is, if you really get to the core of it all underlying things like AA ,Co Dependency,a course in "miracles" ,The secret,etc. and many other"recovery based" treatments.

I can't go to groups like Al Anon,because it does nothing for me except trigger me. When I went there with my mom years ago I watched these enablers talking about trying to stop enabling alcoholics.But I was amazed at how they justified themselves, yet,even as their kids were being traumatized they couldn't see past themselves enough to see they were being unwilling to let go of whatever weird martyr narcissism game that is driving them to 'fix' their 'user'/partners,so they said they are 'powerless' and put it in 'higher power' hands just to tell themselves they have power in their hands while denying ownership of that power.What a mind fuck. Either way they in the name of empowerment disown responsibility for changing their behaviors .It bothers me.

I find it strange in that powerlessness/power it always seems so narcissistic and it does not challenge that self preoccupation..


The people in the equation of recovering adults who are truly with no power are the kids of the drunks and enablers. They are the ones suffering the most.

That's just my two cents on my experiences with recovery based anything. I am sure different anonymous & recovery based treatments & groups help others.They did nothing for me,but than again cognitive behaviorism does not help me either.I don't believe I can do anything If I just believe,or continually change myself I have gone that route amnd found circumstances did not bend to my will dispite my changes really.I learned early on my will is mitigated by circumstances and limits that I cannot control or have nothing to do with me but regardless I have a duty to change what I can to find a comfortable state of mind in myself and not to hurt innocents,even if it doesn't change bad things or feel good to do it.

I am responsible and can only do what I can do at the time.Why is that so often seen as not enough? Because as far as I can tell a mitigated will while living in chaos is what all of us have to work with for better or worse.You either have an inner locus of control and rule yourself for better and worse or you can accept an outer locus of control(like a higher power" or an authority figure or belief system) and accept you shirk responsibility sometimes.But in the end all that you have is you,your life experiences, struggles scars,paths taken,paths denied, and your mitigated decisions.

[proud patriot]

96. Life Ring = secular AA

Here's a great group for the secular
in recovery.

http://www.unhooked.com/?gclid=CP6gkLX5yZoCFRxNagodU2ra2w

[Critters2]

99. Here's another, to which I sometimes refer people:

http://www.recovery-inc.org/

I am, myself, a member of a 12 step group. I refer people to AA and NA, but also let them know about Recovery, especially if their primary issues are more emotional/mental health. I don't see it as an either/or. People can try both, stay with both, or choose whichever works best for them. Recovery is basically cognitive behavioral therapy, without paying some over-priced therapist.

[spanone]

97. my son got a dui and i had to go to an aa meeting with him

i had no idea what a great role god played in aa.....no idea

[Kaleva]

100. My story

I had to attend a weekly AA meeting as part of a 6 week in house treatment program and also was sent to a couple of out patient programs. Nothing worked until one day I simply lost any desire to drink without making a conscious effort to quit. Hadn't had a drop for almost the past 17 years. I have no explanation for the sudden change as I had been told by therapists, counselors and more then one doctor that I was a chronic alcoholic who did not have long to live without an extraordinary effort on my part to get my addiction under control. i was drinking about a case a day and often more around this time then one day some friends and I went to a football game. We bar hopped our way to the stadium, drank at the game and got a case for all of us for the ride home. I had one beer from that case, thought the Bud tasted rather lousy and actually had to force myself to finish the can. I have not drank since.

Time has passed quickly since then and several of my old friends are in their graves now from drinking. I'm still here even though I should not be.

[peace13]

130. Great story!

Sometimes you have to wonder what flipped the switch. Good job!

[TexasObserver]

103. AA works for a very small percentage of people who go there.

Different methods work for different people. Some simply quit after an event that changes their life - a wreck, a crisis, a DUI, a divorce, a lost custody case. Some go to treatment centers. Some try AA. Some simply do it on their own personal commitment.

I suspect that AA works for a certain type of addict/alcoholic, but not others. The problem with AA is that it is similar to religions in general: the zealot assumes that the thing that saved him or her will save others, too. AA has a similar dynamic to churches.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

135. I don't buy that argument

Reading this thread, not one AA member has suggested that AA is the only method that works. It works for us, and because it's a community we have seen that it works for many, many other people. I've also seen it NOT work for many more people.

AA members understand that it's not for everyone.

Yes there are zealots in every group, but I find a marked characteristic of alcoholics is that our disease humbles us, and we can no longer live as if the world revolves around our actions or our opinions.

I rarely meet AA members who are pushy about AA or the spiritual aspect, but I often meet anti-AA people who claim this to be the case. I wonder why that is?

[Critters2]

141. Indeed. I'm in a 12 step program, but actually named, up thread,

another self-help program I often refer people to. Somehow, the naysayers have chosen to ignore that. No doubt, because it blows a hole in their "12 step zealot" argument.

[TexasObserver]

149. Probably because those who deal with AAers have a better perspective.

Those who are in AA often think it's wonderful and think the people in it are wonderful. There's a lot of rationalizing away responsibility that goes on.

Those who have to deal with addicts and alcoholics who attend AA may have a different point of view. It isn't the drinking and drugging that is offensive or that gets the person to AA. It's the way the person behaves when they're drinking or drugging. It's the damage they inflict to their families, friends, and co workers.

Addicts tend to be very self justifying in their behaviors, and the "acceptance" of other addicts doesn't change the horrors the loved ones of those addicts have to put up with. Twelve step programs are a self centered process, much like excessive drinking and drugging. Your fellow AA members may welcome you back when you "slip," but those who have to put up with the addict all the time they're NOT at an AA meeting have a much more realistic view of the addict.

[Wednesdays]

117. K&R

:kick:

[donco6]

120. Bringing up AA is like bringing up PETA.

It gets real ugly, real fast.

But I agree with the article.

[Critters2]

142. I belong to PETA, too!

I only come to DU to earn martyr points! :)

[donco6]

159. Considering the PETA threads I've seen . . .

. . . you deserve every point you can get.

[nichomachus]

127. While we're at it, let's discuss gun control, smoking bans, and abortion

Might as well get all the food fights on one page.

My feeling is that whatever works for people is what they need. 12-step, and I've been in a program, isn't my cup of tea. I can work around the religious aspect, but I was put off by the fact I saw so many people addicted to meetings. Their whole life is built around finding and attending meetings.

However, I have also known people who were seriously put off AA because of the religious aspects. Some meetings are more cultish than others. I did know of one 12-step meeting where the members de-religioned it and it worked quite well.

[Critters2]

144. For me, meetings are just another form of community.

And I know people in non-12 step programs who are every bit as addicted to meetings of GROW, Recovery, etc. Hell, I know people who are addicted to therapy.

[Ignis]

146. A better solution: Rational Recovery (nt)

[Critters2]

162. If you can afford it. !2 step programs are free. nt

[Ignis]

169. It's the cost of a single book and can be self-run.

Two books if you want to get fancy. :)

[AngryAmish]

148. In Illinois you have to go to AA to get your driver's license back

If you get your licensed revoked for DUI, then you have to go through a process to get it back. In essence, you have to be in AA for a number of years, get letters from sponsers, letters from people in your group saying how many times a week you go, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

152. They need to allow people to attend secular alternatives.

Because it is entirely possible for some people (i.e. Atheists) to have a problem with AA completely unrelated to remaining sober.

[Critters2]

163. A judge in this county will send people to Recovery meetings,

if they ask not to be sent to AA, or choose to leave AA. Some county jails in Illinois are now using Recovery internally.

[AngryAmish]

175. I should have been more clear

The regulations do not say "go to AA". And I must confess my ignorence of non-religous types of 12 step programs for alcohol.

However, if someone said I stopped drinking 5 years ago, never touched a drop since and am too shy to go to meetings - then no drivers license. The language of the recovery movement is literally written into the regulations.

[wildeyed]

278. Yeah, but it is the state that writes the regulation, not AA.

Many AA members do not agree with the policy either. Me, personally, I would prefer not to go to a meeting where the majority of the attendees are slip signers who don't want to be there, sitting in the back not participating or paying attention. Not all of them even drink or use. A few I have met are young people who got popped for a minor dealing offense, but don't actually use. What sending them to AA/NA is supposed to accomplish, I don't know.

An AA friend of mine completely disagrees with compulsory AA attendance. He will sign slips before the meeting begins, does not require that people actually attend. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who got permanent sobriety through AA and began attending at the behest of the state, so it does help some people.

Honestly, from the public policy perspective, compulsory AA attendance is a free way for public servants to look like you are doing something about alcohol and drug abusers. Paying for actual treatment is incredibly expensive. Putting people in jail, ditto, and probably not effective once they are released. So compulsory AA looks like a bargain, and it does occasionally work.

What would you prose as a better alternative? DUI is incredibly dangerous, a real danger to public safety. What would be the best way for someone who commits that type of crime to demonstrate that they will not re-offend?

[Warren DeMontague]

151. Only problem I have with 12 step programs & members is when they insist it's the ONLY way.

It's not the only way, but it's one way that has worked for a lot of people. People for whom it doesn't work- particularly those who can't get around the concept of "God" (even as you understand him) should understand that there are secular alternatives, and different paths can work for different people.

That said, I have no desire to bash AA for the people who it helps.

[EFerrari]

153. It's somewhat more accurate to say that AA views itself as

the last resort. When you've tried everything else, the last resort is the only way -- or that's how the thinking goes.

[Warren DeMontague]

155. I understand that, but the truth of the matter is, there are secular alternatives to AA

that also work, and also offer group support without invoking higher powers. (see post #96) And many people in AA do understand that it's one way, not the only way. Some don't, and IMHO it's unfortunate when someone who is a committed unbeliever with no intention of revising their theological outlook is told "either you come to believe or you die". I've seen that happen. Not cool.

[EFerrari]

157. That's also somewhat of an overstatement and perhaps has more to do

with locally run meetings than with AA. There are a bunch of meetings around here for agnostics, for example.

The idea isn't as much to push religion as it is to push the idea that individuals are not omnipotent and that an addict's sense of omnipotence, which comes with the territory, is a great deal of what stands in the way of recovery.

[Warren DeMontague]

158. I understand that, but you should understand that many people can't get around

the deeply ingrained "god-talk" that is fundamental to the 12 step universe. It is. That's not to say there aren't any agnostics (or even atheists) who thrive in AA. But some don't, some can't. And there are other groups that help other people.

Personally, I'm very familiar with AA and the 12 steps. It worked for my Dad, saved his life. Didn't work for me. And believe me, I "worked it".

Unless one is personally threatened by the idea that ANY addict or alcoholic can stay sober long-term (as some of us have, can, and do) without invoking a "Higher Power", there really shouldn't be any problem with acknowledging that there are many different options for people with these problems. AA, RR, LSR, etc.

[EFerrari]

160. Right. As I said above, AA sees itself as a sort of last resort.

And, as an atheist myself, it doesn't bother me in the least that people hold their own beliefs and have to do what works for them.

Frankly, though, if I myself were afraid that I was actively killing myself, how other people talked would not be my first priority. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

172. Well, frankly, I always found forcing myself to sit through the Lord's Prayer

entirely counter-productive to my own sobriety.

For people like myself, it is a VERY important piece of information, indeed, to know that there are other places of "last resort" where folks will help you stay sober without intimating, in any way, shape, or form, that the core issue is a 'spiritual one' based not upon a physiological dependence on a substance, but rather a lack of belief in a higher power.... one that a very large percentage of them choose to attach the "G" word to.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

181. Boy... did you say what I was thinking.

Having to hold hands and say The Lord's Prayer made me actually leave a meeting feeling so uncomfortable that I could not make myself go back. It may not be something that bothers most people but it certainly bothered me enough to just say no.

[RetroLounge]

212. You do realize you are nor required to do that

and also, that's a meeting thing, not an AA thing.

Any meeting can run their meeting any way they want.

Here, most meetings still end that way, but we have managed to change several to no prayer or handholding.

"Each group is autonomous..."

RL

[EFerrari]

189. Your experience must be very different than mine.

I've yet to meet an addict who only needed physiological help and support.

[Warren DeMontague]

193. Like I said, in my experience different things work for different people.

That's why there are alternatives, and although some people in AA may not be aware of it, those alternatives DO work, for lots of people.

Just like AA works for lots of people.

It's the "there is ONE answer, there is ONE way" thing that permeates some of AA -maybe, hopefully, less than it used to- that some of us have a problem with. Like I said, AA saved my Dad's life (until the smokes killed him, at least). But I certainly was exposed to enough of it to know that, for some people in the program, this idea that "THIS is the way because THIS is the problem and WE have the ONLY answer to the problem, and if you don't accept the tenets of OUR answer then you're NOT really dealing with the problem" :eyes: is wrapped up in the entire belief system so firmly that to challenge that is to challenge, apparently, the ground many have based their OWN sobriety on.

Which is fine. But to many outsiders, that starts to look like cult thinking.

Like I said, I'm not interested in bashing AA. It works for lots of people. But it's not the only way, it's not the only way that works, it's not even the only "last resort"... and a lot of their tried-and-true dogmas; like, it's a "spiritual problem"-- don't hold true and DON'T work for many of us, either.

For instance, I've been told (not any time recently, thankfully, since I've long since removed myself from those circles) I'm not actually sober, since I have no interest in the 12 steps. I'm not sober, because I won't "come to believe". Well, guess what. I certainly am sober, and I've been sober a helluva lot longer than lots of people in those rooms. And I've been by FAR the happiest, most joyous, and most free when I've had NOTHING to do with anything resembling "turning my life over" to some invisible entity as I understand him.

Of course, your mileage- and his mileage- and her mileage- may very. Which is essentially my point.

[EFerrari]

230. Oh, of course. People have to do what works for them.

I met someone at a 12 step meeting and exchanged phone numbers. A couple of days later, this person called me and started yelling at me for something I did that violated *her* program goals. That was a very short conversation because I'm not into letting people either yell at me or enforce their trip on me.

lol

The one constant I find is that people find it much easier to fix each other than to tend their own garden. :)

[Critters2]

161. I found this part of the Rational recovery site interesting:

https://rational.org/subscribe/jo02.php

Everything about it costs money. It's just more for-profit therapy. Even joining the discussion groups means paying a fee. One can attend 12 step meetings for free. The same is true of Recovery, International. Not sure why you didn't include that in your list of secular programs.

[Warren DeMontague]

173. I'm not familiar with recovery, international. Hey, post a link. I'm also not a huge Trimpey/RR fan.

But I included it in the list because it is an alternative, one of many.

It's also worth noting that some of Trimpey's stuff, REBT I think it's called- has been incorporated into the programs of some rehabs that are still traditionally 12-step based. I had a relative who went to Rehab and started talking about it, and I recognized it immediately as an RR style approach. So there is cross-pollination, which is good.

Like I said, leaving "recovery, international" out wasn't deliberate-- I just have never heard of them; I don't think they were around when this was a big issue for me, maybe? RR and LSR (which, back then, was "SOS" or Secular Org. for Sobriety) were the only ones I knew about.

[Critters2]

186. Here's RI's home page:

http://www.recovery-inc.org/

Here's a page by someone using both RI and AA: http://www.recovery-inc.org/

Here's the FAQ page: http://www.recovery-inc.org/about/freqently-asked-questions.asp

Oh, and I don't know who Trimpey is, but Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy was developed by Albert Ells, in the '50's. http://www.rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html

[Warren DeMontague]

194. Fair enough. I think RR uses some REBT-like stuff, too.

Jack Trimpey is the guy behind Rational Recovery.

[xchrom]

177. i've been to lots of meetings all over the country --

new york and the bay area -- for example are chock full of atheists and agnostics -- some meetings nearly total.

don't like AA -- don't go.

you won't be missed.

[NMDemDist2]

188. rofl

yup, pretty much

:yourock:

[Warren DeMontague]

195. I don't see what the harm is in pointing out to people that there are alternatives to AA.

Because chock full of atheists and agnostics or not, a lot of us aren't comfortable with the underlying "God-ness" of the 12 steps.

At the end of the day, isn't it all about staying sober and helping others do the same? It shouldn't be threatening if many people find other roads to get there.

[RetroLounge]

213. ...

:loveya:

RL

[Why Syzygy]

198. Actually ..

meh . nm

[rucky]

199. "Higher Power" = something bigger than yourself.

most people choose God, but you could choose a rock if you want and still get the benefit. It's about changing your outlook so you become part of the world, instead of simply existing in it.

[Hello_Kitty]

215. Why do I need to do that to become part of the world?

Funny, I never thought I wasn't part of the world in the first place. :shrug: 12 step programs require a person to invest this "higher power" with magical properties, to talk to it, and ask it for guidance. Whatever one chooses that entity to be, that's religion.

[Warren DeMontague]

225. Here's my (decidedly non-professional and non-12 stepper) opinion on the matter.

For many alcoholics and addicts, the brain and thinking processes, in active addiction particularly, are wrapped up in the problem itself. So using that same brain and same thinking processes to get out of the situation is exceedingly difficult, for many. That's why (again, in my opinion) it is helpful for many to have a way out of their own head. For many people, it's turning the problem over to someone or something else. For other people, self-reprogramming can come through REBT, or in your case, SMART. Although I'm not religious per se, a grounding in Buddhism and Taoism helped me, personally, considerably. As did staying in contact with other sober people through secular alternatives to AA. Again, methodologies for getting out of the loop of addiction and obsession.

I say this as someone who is familiar with AA, but not a 12 stepper personally. I think it's tough for lots of people, on their own, to get past their own heads when their own hears are wrapped up in the addictive process. It's like trying to use a broken hammer to fix your broken hammer.

I don't have any problem with the people for whom AA does work; and there are lots of them- I salute them for finding something that works for them. My only problem is when they tell everyone else that they and they along have the one and only capital-W Way.

[Lilith Velkor]

217. What other medical problems do you solve by praying to a rock?

What century is this again?

[rucky]

221. Placebo is usually used to test the effectiveness of a remedy.

But it can also be measured as a remedy in contrast to stated non-treatment.

[Lilith Velkor]

226. It's not a placebo if you know it's a placebo.

Again, what other medical conditions are treated by praying to a rock? Would you recommend it for, say, lymphoma? If not, why not?

How does it help if those who choose praying to rocks teach vulnerable sick people that abstaining from poison is not good enough if one does not attend meetings in order to pray to rocks? Is that not more self-serving than it is remedial?

[rucky]

236. If it works, then use it. If it seems silly to you, it probably won't work.

What's the medical course of treatment for alcoholism? How much does it cost? How long would it keep you from your job to complete? Does insurance cover it?

[Lilith Velkor]

238. Benzodiazepines are indicated for advanced stages of alcoholism

After detox, abstinence and good emotional support (whether professional or from friends and family, which AA tells you to shun) are what is needed. As with just about every medical or psychiatric condition, insurance coverage is hit or miss.

Telling people that abstinence is not good enough, and laying on a heavy guilt trip for not praying to something, is counterproductive.

Can you answer any of my questions now? If not, can you at least tell me why you are dodging them?

[rucky]

239. Start asking some intelectually honest questions, and I'll be happy to answer.

But reducing my point to the merits of rock-worshipping, and alluding to the MIA cancer-mom sympathizers doesn't really raise the bar.

If you want to talk about religious whackjobs, I'm right there with you - but find an easier target than a program that's helped millions from self-destruction.

[Lilith Velkor]

247. Prove that it has "helped millions," and then get back to me about intellectual honesty.

Oh wait...you can't. The program is supposed to be anonymous, so any number pulled from betwixt the buttcheeks is simply an article of faith.

So much for that.

It wasn't that long ago that people with allergies were subjected to similar unhelpful, guilt-tripping, medieval bullshit. This too shall pass.

[BoneDaddy]

218. The problem with AA is...

not that it has not been effective.. it has for many and it has not been effective for many.

The problem is that it has become the defacto referral system for the courts, drug and alcohol centers and other intervention services as the ONLY "choice".

Until Rational recovery programs and other alternatives to AA are seen as equally valid, this will not change.

[Critters2]

228. Again, one judge here refers people to Recovery meetings,

and Recovery is being used in some jails and juvenile detention centers in Illinois.

[ellisonz]

276. And?

It's one judge. AA/12 step probably has at least a 95% monopoly on the "treatment industry."

[firehorse]

219. As an athiest and someone benefitting from Alanon

I am powerless to the preconceived judgements people have about 12 step programs. I remember when I thought it was "culty god" cult too. Thankfully I found some meetings filled with athiests and agnostics that inspired me with their togetherness "to keep coming back."

One of the best things I've learned in Alanon is that it's "none of my business what others think of me" or my program. It's my business, and I have more peace and serenity in my life than I did before. And thats all that matters.

My alcoholic family members are threatened by it, but that's none of my business either.

[Critters2]

227. Yep. POME and POOP, as we say in EA.

Powerless over my emotions and powerless over other people.

[Kajsa]

245. I've got to remember

those, Critters!

:D

[Hello_Kitty]

263. Wow, yet another person who (amazingly) found the secular/atheist meetings!

Somehow, throughout my 10 years+ of AA and Alanon and ACOA, in 4 different US states and 2 other countries, I never once ended up in a 'secular' meeting. And I got browbeaten and eventually shunned and ostracized because I refused to have the expected conversion.

Get your Big Book out and read the Chapter to the Agnostics. Substitute the word "Catholic" or "Jew" every time you see atheist or agnostic and ask yourself how it would be received by those groups.

BTW, it should be obvious that my judgments about 12 steps are NOT preconceived, and neither are those of several of the others on this thread who have negative opinions of it. We're speaking from personal experience. And our experience is as valid as yours.

[FlyingSquirrel]

281. I personally know several who have refused to have what you call the

"expected conversion". They have not been shunned or ostracized. To me that logically means either (1) there was some other reason for your being shunned or ostracized - or more likely (2) you were only shunned or ostracized in your own mind, since AA is about inclusion and not exclusion.

[county worker]

229. If you are an alcoholic and don't want to try AA. DON'T!

Why is it that some people who don't need something need to spend a lot of time knocking it?

If you don't like AA good for you. Don't go to meetings!

I'm 26 years sober and AA gave me something I can never thank them enough for. The idea that I can turn problems over to a higher power. Now I don't know what the higher power is made up of and I don't really care. I like to think it is the life force in all of us, something shared in all of nature.

Anyway I have had much success with turning problems over. I believe in the law of attraction some call it the "Secret".

Now I don't try to tell other people what to do with there lives unless they come to me for a 13th step intervention.

I know many here will poo poo what I do and I don't really care. You live your life and I'll live mine. You keep on believing that reality can only be proven by science if you need to.

If you are suffering it's your own fault.

[Lilith Velkor]

237. "If you are suffering it's your own fault."

Yeah, that's exactly what psychologically vulnerable people need. :eyes:

[FlyingSquirrel]

285. Here's what psychologically vulnerable people don't need:

We don't need to be told that the program which we believe is currently keeping us sober, is a bunch of bullshit.

So fuck off.

[Hello_Kitty]

261. Um, you do know that judges force people to go to AA, don't you?

As does the military, and adolescent treatment centers. In fact, it may come as a surprise to you, but a substantial percentage of the "newbies" you see at meetings are there involuntarily. The AA organization has no problem with it, since they'll take new members however they can get them.

[county worker]

267. AA isn't a club seeking new members. You don't join AA. You take it or leave it.

AA does not run the court system or make laws forcing people to go to meetings. They do sign your card after the meeting to show the court that you attended.

[ellisonz]

277. lol...

of course AA needs new members. How else would they replace the die-off?

[FlyingSquirrel]

279. In reality, judges cannot force anyone to do anything.

People are given alternatives - they choose the one which they believe to be least painful. Some people who are ordered to attend AA will choose not to do so, and receive the alternative choice of jail (or whatever other alternative there was). Now there are other alternatives besides AA - most cost money, but some don't and certainly neither I nor anyone in AA would object to any of those alternatives being required instead - AA has NEVER claimed to be the ONLY program of recovery that can help. Also, AA has never asked the court system or lobbied the legislature to require attendance at meetings. That is one of the main tenets of AA - the program is based on attraction, rather than promotion. However, since another of the main tenets is that it is our duty to help other alcoholics, we certainly would not reject this either (even if the person so required does not actually have a problem with alcohol at the present time - after all, it is a progressive disease, and having been exposed to AA once they may return at a future time when the disease has progressed to the point where they DO need help.)

Continuing on about choices that people who are ordered to attend AA will still have: Some will choose to forge their attendance slips. Some will show up, sit through the meeting for the minimum amount of time (i.e., until their signed attendance slip is returned to them) and then bug out.

Some, like me, attended their first meeting as a result of a court order - and rather than add an extra resentment to their mountain of resentments about life, decided to make the best of it. By the way, I was very much Atheist, and I completely understand your attitude toward religion. However you must realize that although AA was founded by men with certain religious beliefs, those beliefs are not foisted upon anyone. AA members are free to believe whatever they wish to believe, and members can and DO believe millions of different things. There is certainly no requirement that anyone repeat or believe the Serenity Prayer or any other prayer. Members are free to remain silent, or to arrive late to the meeting (after any opening prayer which a particular group may have chosen to lead with - not all groups actually choose to lead with a prayer) and leave the meeting before any closing prayer might be said - if the saying of a prayer offends them.

To me (and to most) it doesn't matter how a person got to AA, it only matters what they decide to do once they ARE there. And NOBODY can force a person to actually DO the program of AA. Not the courts, not anybody. Certainly nobody can force a person to drop a buck into the basket as it goes around the room - and nobody does. AA is self-supporting through CONTRIBUTIONS of the members. VOLUNTARY contributions. This is an inviolate rule, and if the courts were to attempt to change it, I am certain that AA would resist and win. The actual taking of the steps within the program is ALSO voluntary, and again, if the courts were to attempt to change this it would also be strongly resisted.

So, without any monetary reason for "taking new members however they can get them", without any requirement that these new members follow any particular program as a condition of membership, (the only condition is the desire to quit drinking, and since you can't truly know another person's desire, even that is not enforceable), and without any particular religious motivation, where exactly are you seeing some kind of problem? The court can require a person's presence in jail just as easily, and this has much less likelihood of rehabilitating a person whose use of alcohol has created a problem in the life of another person (and most likely their own as well).

I don't really expect to make a breakthrough with you here, because in my experience there are some who just enjoy being naysayers - I apologize if that's a mistaken assumption in your case. But I figured I'd give it a shot anyhow, on the off-chance that someone might be reading your posts and wish to see a lucid opposing opinion. I wish you the best - have a nice day!

[get the red out]

232. What is your alternative?

Is there a treatment option that "works" if AA doesn't? If we outlaw AA tomorrow is there a treatment option for alcoholics or should they crawl off and die because they should have had more "will power". That takes us back about 60 years.

This is Republican-style thinking. There isn't another fully vetted option being offered here, but the one currently in use simply has to go, it's no good! My stats say it's no good, so we need to give people no options at all, so there.

What are the options besides a surmising of "wouldn't it make more sense....." If there is any evidence that the suggestion works great! I think there needs to be more research into alcohol treatment, but until there is just hating on AA doesn't cut it.

But the arguments really don't matter. When AA works for people, those people still have the right to gather in this country. It would be a bit hard to destroy AA in the US. Limiting the court ordered folks would do nothing but improve the statistics the haters cling to. Options for Alcoholics don't grow on trees. If someone has a great treatment idea they need to get research done on it and promote it, not just roll around random thoughts to pretend to prove a point of some kind.

[NashVegas]

246. People Who Blindly Attack Anything to Do With Religion Are =ly Stupid To People Who Blindly Follow

My grandmother and my mom's best friend both had the Serenity Prayer plastered all over their homes, their cars.

I don't care; neither of them ever became perfect role models but at least these women found a way to stop wreaking total havoc on the lives of people they cared about. Seeing as though neither of them could have even begun to afford the Betty Ford clinic, I'm thankful to the people in AA who helped them get where they needed to be.

[Hello_Kitty]

262. People who talk authoritatively on subjects they know fuck all about are the most stupid

Which is what you're doing right now. Some of us actually speak from personal experience where AA is concerned.

[NashVegas]

270. Your Experience Is Different From Other Peoples' Experience

[Aragorn]

283. what a lot of posts!

I did not read them all - it is 2:43 AM and I had an espresso at 11 PM...

But I did not see any posts about the medical side of alcoholism (and other drug abuse/addiction). This is my field and I can tell you, a lot more is known than most people know - including most doctors. I will see if I have the "right" to post on this topic on DU (do I have enough posts - of whatever quality - to post myself? Have I donated enough to DU?)

Check out info on ReVia (Naltrexone) for example.

Alcoholism is, in short, a brain chemistry issue whereby the alcoholic feels worse NOT drunk than drunk. So despite bad consequences of alcohol abuse, the alcoholic wants alcohol/intoxication anyway.

Other drugs mimic brain chemicals, or effect levels of brain chemicals, in ways that really do make the user feel better - at least for a while.

Some have potential withdrawal, sometimes medically dangerous sometimes not. Those which do also have tolerance, and so increasing use is a way to "continue to benefit" - although tolerance to other effects may not occur.

There is often but not always an overlap with brain chemistry of mood regulation. So some abusers really are self-medicating although with many such cases the drugs available on the street are not curative, just ameliorative.

AA works for some, not for others. Alcohol and drug problems outnumber all other mental illnesses by far, and people need help anywhere that HELPS. (That usually does not include jail.) I know a lot of people who benefit from AA.

[Taverner]

234. Here we go again....

[Resuscitated Ethics]

265. "Admitting powerlessness" impossible for narcissists

"it works if you work it" god or no god. It helped me. It helped that going was my choice.

I have sympathy for the booze heads who have let it go long enough to have a judge assign them to AA, but only until they maim somebody by practicing their narcissistic self-medication, badly.

Fuck booze.

[JonLP24]

284. Not sure what the alternative is

The rehab facility I went to used alot of AA language, we read an AA page and a NA page everyday in rehab and took trips down to meetings every other night. My point is the rehab facility I went to with licensed counselors all adapted the AA model. I have reason to believe that most rehab facilities adapt the AA model even if it is minor into their overall treatment program. I think the idea of AA or any other group such as NA is effective in terms from learning from recovering addicts on how to get clean. It isn't the same as a sober person who generally never had a problem with chemicals lecturing you on how to quit. A recovering addict knows what is like to be addicted, quit, relapse, quit, relapse again, etc. Though the religous aspect is a turn off but the meetings I went to in Aberdeen, WA weren't religous to much. Some people gave stories involving the use of the phrase 'higher power' instead of god and at the end we gave the serenity pray. I'd normally step out in prayers but since they were holding hands I didn't want to be the odd man out.

Anyways my point is the idea is a good one. Former addicts helping addicts. They are the best person who can understand your situation, a person who has never had problems with drugs mostly can't empathize.

[w8liftinglady]

286. AA is free.Show me an alternative that is.

[Critters2]

288. Recovery, International is also free. I think they work on similar principles,

and have referred people to both programs. Some need to spiritual aspect, some don't. Me, I'm a 12-stepper, finding it helped me after wasting a shitload of money on a therapist who didn't. There may be alternatives, but that's no reason that those helped by 12 step groups shouldn't use them.