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The U.S. IS Using White Phosphorous In Afghanistan

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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 11:50 PM
Original message
The U.S. IS Using White Phosphorous In Afghanistan

The U.S. Using White Phosphorous In Afghanistan


<snip>

Now that policy, and the military’s blanket denial that phosphorus was used in Farah, have to be questioned, thanks to a recent report filed from a remote area of Afghanistan by a New York Times reporter.

C.J. Chivers, writing in the May 14 edition of the NY Times, in an article headlined “Korangal Valley Memo: In Bleak Afghan Outpost, Troops Slog On,” wrote of how an embattled US Army unit in the Korangal Valley of Afghanistan, had come under attack following a morning memorial service for one of their members, Pfc. Richard Dewater, who had been killed the day before by a mine.

Chivers wrote:

After the ceremony, the violence resumed. The soldiers detected a Taliban spotter on a ridge, which was pounded by mortars and then white phosphorus rounds from a 155 millimeter howitzer.

What did the insurgents do? When the smoldering subsided, they attacked from exactly the same spot, shelling the outpost with 30-millimeter grenades and putting the soldiers on notice that the last display of firepower had little effect. The Americans escalated. An A-10 aircraft made several gun runs, then dropped a 500-pound bomb.

It is clear from this passage that the military’s use of the phosphorus shells had not been for the officially sanctioned purpose of providing cover. The soldiers had no intention of climbing that hill to attack the spotter on the ridge themselves. They were trying to destroy him with shells and bombs. In fact, the last thing they would have wanted to do was provide the spotter with a smoke cover, which would have helped him escape, and which also would have hidden him from the planes which had been called in to make gun runs at his position. Nor was this a case of illuminating the target. The incident, as Chivers reports, took place in daylight.

Clearly then, this article shows that it is routine for soldiers to call in phosphorus rounds to attack enemy soldiers, which is supposed to be against US military policy for this material. Whoever was manning the howitzer had a stock of the weapons on hand, and was ready to fire them.

<snip>

http://www.robertstevenduncan.com/2009/05/us-using-white-phosphorous-in.html

U.S. Denies Using White Phosphorous in Afghanistan, Gates Pledges More Investigation



WASHINGTON, May 11, 2009 – The U.S. military denies using white phosphorous during recent fighting with Taliban militants, and Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said American and Afghan officials will further investigate the recent Western Afghanistan battle.

The Taliban alleges that U.S. forces employing the chemical during fighting with insurgents wounded Afghan civilians in the May 4 battle in Farah province, a claim the U.S. military refutes.

Gates, speaking to reporters at a Pentagon news conference today, said a high-ranking U.S. officer has been dispatched to work with the Afghan Ministries of Defense and Interior to look into what happened.

“I also understand that General Petraeus is either considering or has already decided to send someone to Afghanistan from outside the country to investigate the tragedy,” Gates said, referring to Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the commander of U.S. Central Command.

The defense secretary also suggested that the incident – and the Taliban’s exploitation of civilian casualties – highlights the other battle being waged on the strategic communications front.

<snip>

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=54294


US troops defend use of phosphorous in Afghanistan



US troops in Afghanistan are defending the use of white phosphorus as a battlefield smoke screen. There are allegations that its use has caused civilian injuries.

Coalition soldiers patrolling the Korengal valley regularly call for mortars containing white phosphorus to be fired to shield them from Taliban attack.

On Monday, the US accused Afghan militants of also using the chemical in what it called "reprehensible" attacks on US forces and in civilian areas.

White Phosphorous causes severe burns and human rights groups denounce its use as a weapon, or in populated areas. However, US and NATO troops frequently use it to illuminate targets.

http://www.cctv.com/program/worldwidewatch/20090519/103599.shtml
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. But it's so darn *effective*.
:eyes:
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. They'll cop to torture but not to this
Even though it's well known they used WP offensively in Iraq (Fallujah).
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. With the Pentagon
lying every step of the way.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. kick
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armyowalgreens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. The US and Israel:United in their gross violations of the Geneva convention.
No one gives a shit about human life anymore. Wars are for ratings and profits. It's fucking pathetic.


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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Change?
:mad:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. knr
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. ...even more confused now.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
9. "We...cough/cough...don't torture anymore, but have zero moral qualms w/burning civilians to death."
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. Isn't the ban on WP limited to civilian area's?
I thought the GC ban on WP was only in area's in and around civilians/non-combatants. :shrug:

It's a horrid weapon to be on the receiving end of, but that horror is part of why it's so effective. And it seems that a hilltop sending in 30mm rounds is not likely to be a place with civilians and collateral damage.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. No....
WP or any weapon that damages or destroys by flame or heat is prohibited against troops.

However WP when used by artillery is a burster shell. It explodes high maybe 200-300 ft above the target.
The purpose is to generate smoke.

It generates a LOT of smoke.
It also generates it almost instantly.

WP is not very effective at killing troops.
The round explodes high and spreads WP "chunks" over a 20m-100m radius.
The blast is not very dense. It is just designs to spread the WP around to produce smoke in a larger area faster.

99% of the area in a 50m radius below a WP round is NOT hit by WP it simply gets smoke from nearby burning WP.

High Explosive on the other hand will kill anything and everything unarmed within a 50m radius. The diameter of the blast is a football field.

If you had to destroy a target which would you use:
1) a round that spreads 12 chunks of burning WP over a 50m radius and hope that randomly one will hit the target
2) a round that cuts a 50m hole in the ground and destroys anything unarmored inside it

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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
11. and this is a surprise because? . . . n/t
.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
12. I have seen what
white phosphorous does and it is very, very horrific.

It should not be allowed, ever.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Shake and Bake is the term.
Smoke prevents movement of the target.
High explosive or air strike finishes them off.

155mm round will drop visibility to 0 for about a 100m radius.
16 guns in a battery will ensure the overlapping field is 300-400m wide.

Spotter who can't see can't call in a strike.
Spotter who can't see can't move.

Immobile target is easy picking for conventional rounds.

Trust me if you have ever seen both WP (smoke) and HE (High Explosive) you would understand that if Artillery can kill you with WP they can kill you easier, cheaper, and faster with HE or DPICM.
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hugo_from_TN Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Good info - Thanks.
Unfortunately, it's going against the preferred narrative, so most will ignore it.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R

WP, DU, torture, yesiree folks, we're here to help you.....

Someone should tell the folks of Falluja about the legitimate usage of WP, mebbe that'll cheer 'em up.

Wouldn't be surprised if they called that in specifically to 'fry a raghead' in revenge for their dead buddy, that sort of shit happens.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. It was used in Fallujah so why should Afghanistan be any different? There were also reports
early on by CNN in the Iraq war that we were using napalm.
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Old Time Pagan Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. The US: The Country of Life, Ethical Behavior & High Moral Standards
yeah right.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. Who makes these bombs?
I've been searching to find out who and I keep coming up with Lockheed Martin and Raytheon ... hummm, who used to lobby for Raytheon?

Got to keep feeding the pig ..

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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
Edited on Tue May-19-09 04:21 PM by maryf
amazing discrepancies between the stories out there on this ... And civilian burns? Just a little collateral damage, hey??? :( :grr:
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Horrible. The stuff needs to be banned altogether
Once it's available in a war zone, it's bound to be used on people sooner or later. Awful.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Here is the story about white phosphorus...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm

In the case cited, a spotter was up on a ridge looking down at our troops. His group was behind him, dug into spider holes and/or trenches. A howitzer blast of HE would not affect the insurgents in the holes/trenches. One round of WP would drive them out of the holes/trenches where a round or two of HE could wipe them out. You can find this in the article above.

More on WP: it is the coating on all tracer rounds, i.e., think aircraft gun ammo. Has the same effect on people that the wp rounds have.

Long-running argument on this right now at democrats.com.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. i love the smell of white phosphorous in the morning!!!!!!
it smells like victory!!!!!!
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lostnotforgotten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
24. So, Does The Buck Stop With Mr. "O" Yet?
eom
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kick,nt
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earthworship Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-19-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. Same war .... different country
Pick on some other country
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-20-09 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R n/t
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