Did the Founding Fathers want private banks to issue Credit or Governmet of US?

[keep_it_real]

The founding fathers want all credit to be issued by the sovereign government of the US and believed that the issuing of credit was the sovereign right of government ONLY.

[NJGeek]

1. not doubting you, but backup? references?

[keep_it_real]

9. NJGeek, this book will change your WORLD view.

This is the ULTIMATE economic secret of America. Trust me I kid you not!

http://www.webofdebt.com/

[Oregone]

2. Founding fathers, despite their infallible divine nature, are dead

Just sayin.

[keep_it_real]

16. No! they LIVE in the IDEAS they espoused!

[Oregone]

25. LOL. Wormfood

They had some ideas. Some good and a couple bad (judged arbitrarily). They weren't Gods, and I wouldn't even go so far as to say they are history's top political philosophers (though there are some honorable mentions). Though with a country obsessed with what Jesus thinks we should be doing I doubt hey will ever get beyond thinking about what recent wormfood thinks.

[TwilightZone]

3. I think you're confusing "credit" with "currency" and/or "coin".

Link, please?

[keep_it_real]

10. No, you just don't understand as I did not understand

You DON'T understand how money is created out of thin air in American banks.

[TwilightZone]

13. Well, then, you shouldn't have any problem providing documentation.

Until then, I'll stand by my statement.

[keep_it_real]

15. Here is your documentation

http://www.webofdebt.com/

Put your money where your mouth is . . .

[TwilightZone]

17. I'm not going to buy the book that you keep plugging.

Here's a comment from one of your prior threads:

Section 8. The Congress shall have power . . . To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures...

Hmm, 'coin money'. I don't see credit mentioned. Since you're apparently familiar with the Constitution, perhaps you can provide a link to the section on credit.

[keep_it_real]

21. Because that is the TRICK; you DON'T understand how money is made in America

If you REALLY understood you would know that when a private bank issues a LOAN or issues CREDIT to someone's account they are CREATING money out of thin air. The Founding Fathers KNEW this but hundreds of years after the Founding Fathers YOU don't know this.

Look, I'm on your side; I'm just trying to get over an IDEA to you that I KNOW you don't understand as I did not understand and I have read several good books on the subject. But for some reason this book makes it plain.

Look bro, it's only a few bucks. I am sure you spend just as much on a few beers on the week end. If one million AMERICANS read this book there would be revolution in the streets tomorrow.

[TwilightZone]

23. If you can't provide proof, just say so.

Instead of berating people, as you've done several times in this thread, I suggest that you research your material and be prepared to defend it with real data, not a link to the same book you've already plugged in several threads about various topics.

Do so, and it'll be much more likely that people will take your claims seriously.

[keep_it_real]

24. Don't be cheap; this is a very complicated idea; read the book

Or here:
http://www.financialsense.com/transcriptions/2006/1018griffin.html

[TwilightZone]

28. Yes, it's so complicated that you can't find supporting docs.

Here, I'll make this easy for you. Here's the US Constitution: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

The word "credit" appears three times:

1) Article 1, Section 8 - The Congress shall have Power...To borrow money on the credit of the United States

2) Article 1, Section 10 - No State shall...emit Bills of Credit

3) Article 4, Section 1 - Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records...of every other State.

The first one applies to Congress borrowing money, the second regards states, and the third is a different use of the word "credit" then the usage we're discussing.

Nothing about government being the only source of credit. Your link doesn't contain that information, either.

[Uzybone]

4. Founding fathers would go insanse if they saw a computer

let alone tried to figure out banking and credit today. For all thier wisdon, thier exact opinions are irrelevant to many thing today.

[babylonsister]

8. Ha! A computer? How about our money? Populations?

Highway systems and cars?! There are so many things they never could have fathomed.

[keep_it_real]

12. But the principles of banking are the same today as they were in the time of the Founding Fathers

YOU think you know but you know NOT.

[TwilightZone]

19. Black people voting!

And women, too!

[keep_it_real]

22. If a million WOMEN read this book they would march on Washington

And they would be telling every family member they have to get and read this book. In the the 1890's the American people understood the "money question" in American politics in the 21st century American have been put to sleep regarding the "money question" in American politics. Wake up America; the time is now.

[babylonsister]

30. No kidding! Lincoln would be proud, I think. nt

[keep_it_real]

11. On the contray the founding founding fathers KNEW the PRINCIPLES of Banking

Which you do NOT know. The PRINCIPLES of banking have not changes they are the same today as they were in the founding fathers day. YOU just do not understand or know what you are talking about.

[Massacure]

5. Hamilton faced a lot of opposition trying to push a banking bill through Congress.

It is not wise to paint all the founding fathers with such a broad brush.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. Bwuhahahaha!

[keep_it_real]

18. Bwuhahahaha! Back to you!

[pa28]

7. Thomas Jefferson is on the record.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

[customerserviceguy]

20. Wow, I've never read that Jefferson quote before

Further proof that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[muriel_volestrangler]

33. Most of it's false - no-one even used the word 'deflation' about money till the 20th century

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

It appears to have been made up by a politician in the 1930s, who wanted his 'wisdom' to come from a more credible mouth than his own.

[Oregone]

26. He also did the humpty-dumpty with his slaves

[pa28]

31. Hey, who doesn't love a good non-sequitur.

:hi:

[keep_it_real]

14. This book will explane the MONEY IDEA whose time has ARRIVED

http://www.webofdebt.com/

I am not pushing a book, I AM pushing an IDEA that just happens to be the SALVATION OF ECONOMIC AMERICA in this book.

I brought this book and not only did I get my monies worth, I understand what is going on economically like I NEVER understand before.

[WhiteTara]

27. at least give up 5 paragraphs

that's allowable and might give impetus to read the book. Just saying.

[Hannah Bell]

34. couple chapters excerpted at the link.

Among other arresting facts explored in this book are that:

The "Federal" Reserve is not actually federal. It is a private corporation owned by a consortium of very large multinational banks. (Chapter 13)

Except for coins, the government does not create money. Dollar bills (Federal Reserve Notes) are created by the private Federal Reserve, which lends them to the government. (Chapter 2)

Tangible currency (coins and dollar bills) together make up less than 3 percent of the U.S. money supply. The other 97 percent exists only as data entries on computer screens, and all of this money was created by banks in the form of loans. (Chapters 2 and 17)

The money that banks lend is not recycled from pre-existing deposits. It is new money, which did not exist until it was lent. (Chapters 17 and 18)

Thirty percent of the money created by banks with accounting entries is invested for their own accounts. (Chapter 18)

The American banking system, which at one time extended productive loans to agriculture and industry, has today become a giant betting machine. An estimated $370 trillion are now riding on complex high-risk bets known as derivatives – 28 times the $13 trillion annual output of the entire U.S. economy. These bets are funded by big U.S. banks and are made largely with borrowed money created on a computer screen. Derivatives can be and have been used to manipulate markets, loot businesses, and destroy competitor economies. (Chapters 20 and 32)

The U.S. federal debt has not been paid off since the days of Andrew Jackson. Only the interest gets paid, while the principal portion continues to grow. (Chapter 2)

The federal income tax was instituted specifically to coerce taxpayers to pay the interest due to the banks on the federal debt. If the money supply had been created by the government rather than borrowed from banks that created it, the income tax would have been unnecessary. (Chapters 13 and 43)

The interest alone on the federal debt will soon be more than the taxpayers can afford to pay. When we can't pay, the Federal Reserve's debt-based dollar system must collapse. (Chapter 29)

Contrary to popular belief, creeping inflation is not caused by the government irresponsibly printing dollars. It is caused by banks expanding the money supply with loans. (Chapter 10)

Most of the runaway inflation seen in "banana republics" has been caused, not by national governments over-printing money, but by global institutional speculators attacking local currencies and devaluing them on international markets. (Chapter 25)

The same sort of speculative devaluation could happen to the U.S. dollar if international investors were to abandon it as a global "reserve" currency, something they are now threatening to do in retaliation for what they perceive to be American economic imperialism. (Chapters 29 and 37)

There is a way out of this morass. The early American colonists found it, and so did Abraham Lincoln and some other national leaders: the government can take back the money-issuing power from the banks. (Chapters 8 and 24)

[Odin2005]

29. Anti-Fed conspiracy BS is annoying.

What is it about fractional reserve banking that pushes people's psychological buttons and turns them into cranks? Is discovering that the reality of the monetary system being far more abstract and complex then the simple and naive notions about cash in bank vaults most people have so shattering to people's minds that it drives them insane? :eyes:

And no, I'm not buying your book you crackpot. I'm sure it's the same insane Austrian School Libertarian claptrap against fiat currency I see all over the Internet.

[cosmik debris]

36. This right wing extremist crap has been around the US for 50 yrs

That's 50 years that I know of. It may be longer. Normally, educated people just ignore it.

The question in my mind is how such reactionary shit ended up on a liberal message board?

I guess there is one born every minute.

[Odin2005]

37. For the same reason so many DUers love Ron Paul.

IMO BushCo drove Libertarians away from the GOP and so now they are plaguing us instead and many have caught the virulent memes the crackpots are spewing. Many of these conspiracy theories have their roots in Anti-Semitism ("evil Jewish bankers" and all that), which fits some of the disturbing tendencies towards Anti-Semitism some DUers have. Finally, there is the fact that a lot of good economic policy goes against our natural instinctive responses and a lot of people "trust" their instinctive responses and declare the good economic policy some conspiracy to fool them; fractional reserve banking and fiat currency are examples, they seem to violate people's instincts about money and value and thus seems to set people off.

[Joe the Liberal]

32. Well if I had to choose.....

who issued all credit today I would go with the government, instead of private companies who only seem interested in screwing everyone over via high interest rates (usury).

[Smith_3]

35. They may or may not. But to be honest: Who cares?

I don't think the opinions of some obscure historical figures are necessarily relevant to today's politics.

[LeftishBrit]

38. Did they want/envisage lots of other things, I wonder?

The Internet; cars; television?

A black president; a female Secretary of State; a close alliance with an empire-less Britain with a nominally-socialist government?

For that matter, a USA consisting of 50 rather than 13 states?