Many "pro-life" people said they think abortion should be legal

[Wetzelbill]

in some circumstances, according to the Gallup Poll that was out. Well that's not being "pro-life" then, it's being "pro-choice." At least to a certain degree.

That's the thing, those terms are virtually meaningless. "Pro-Life" is more of a focus group term than an actual issue or policy position. I think those terms are part of a political lexicon that is meant to divide more than anything else.

People might identify with the better focus grouped term, but that doesn't mean all of those people are set in stone unreasonable about a sane policy on abortion. Not everybody is as rigidly ideological as the Republican Party. Most people aren't.

Here is the poll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30771408/?GT1=43001

[polichick]

1. Both those terms are ridiculous - "pro-choice" people are also pro life...

...that's why they support legislation to help the children, poor, elders and animals that are already here.

[ananda]

3. This pro choice person is also pro life.

I support a society that values women and children
in every way.. and their freedom to own their own
bodies.

[polichick]

8. Me too - and also the lives of men, animals and the planet! :)

[Wetzelbill]

10. right on!

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Yup. nt

[Wetzelbill]

11. I am not sure

if "pro-choice" is all that ridiculous a term, but I think the overall debate is ridiculous and counterproductive. It plays into the hands of people who use words to frame things in their own favor. Republicans are masterful at that.

[polichick]

13. Guess I should've said thinking pro-choice is the opposite of pro-life is ridiculous. :)

[Wetzelbill]

25. it sure is

I just don't like how the debate is framed at all. It's like saying Pro-Ice Cream vs Pro-Nutritional Substance, lol. Well who the hell is all that against ice cream? One sounds lofty and the other sounds like a stereotypical unemotive bureaucrat made it up. I like ice cream with a little nutrition to it. That's my stance!

[emilyg]

26. yep.

[PunkinPi]

2. "...political lexicon that is meant to divide more than anything else"

That is precisely the point. If anything it should be "pro-choice" and "anti-choice". I don't think anyone on the "pro-choice" side is "anti-life".

[Wetzelbill]

9. yes

I think so. I have never met anybody with was "for" abortion, I've only meant people who don't believe a woman should be subjected to coathangers and bicycle spokes and who should be free to make their own health care decisions in conjunction with her doctor.

[krabigirl]

4. How many "pro-life" people are pro-war?

[Wetzelbill]

7. too many

I know quite a few personally. Throw into that how many "pro-life" people are against policies that improve the quality of life?

[napi21]

5. There was a caller on the WJ this AM who made a very good point.

She was an older woman as am I, and she related what things were like long BEFORE the Roe decision, where wealthy woman had the $$ to secretly go to their doctor to get an abortion started then simply go to the hospital claiming a miscarriage, but poor women resorted to all kind of horrible things like coat hangers, knitting needles and back alley abortionists that many times cost them their lives. Making abortion illegal would not make it stop!!!!!!

The problem is you have to be pretty OLD to remember those days, and a lot of the loudest anti abortion voices simply weren't alive then to remember such horrors!

[Wetzelbill]

6. that's exactly right

That's the strongest reason why I believe that it should be safe and legal in most circumstances.

[classof56]

17. Back in the 50s I had a friend who needed a life-saving heart operation

She was 19, newly married and pregnant, could not carry to term and live. Her doctor went to a judge to get approval for a therapeutic abortion. He did, the heart operation was a success, and my friend went on to have two children and recently celebrated her 50th anniversary. Also knew of a married woman in our area who was told another pregnancy would most likely be fatal and was doing her best (remember, this is before birth control pills) to keep from getting pregnant. Tragically, she was raped, impregnated and went to a judge to plead for an abortion. The judge refused. Not sure about the outcome of that, lost track. Then there was the 12-year-old girl impregnated by her stepfather and the judge refused her request to terminate. Those were the days when a female's life, health and future was in the hands of a judge (likely male) whose personal views about abortion determined her fate. Sure, there were abortions of the illegal kind, but as you said, the risks were considerable. And remember the Thalidomide babies? The ones born with horrible birth defects because of the that drug was prescribed to pregnant women. I recall those who discovered what was going on and could afford to fly to Sweden could get abortions, no problem. The others were left to suffer the awful consequences.

The thing is--I'm no fan of abortion, but it should be as they say, legal, safe and rare. I clearly recall the days when it was none of those, and yes, I'm pretty old, but grateful for Roe v Wade, and Driscoll v Connecticut, which made birth control legal for married couples. Hope I spelled that right. Let's not go back there, folks!

Rant over!

[lunatica]

23. I'm in my early 60's and I had an uncle who was a doctor and when I was young

I remember he gave talks about first hand stories of women who's lives he saved and tried to save after they had punctured their uteruses or gone to some hack for an abortion. He was a pro-choice, pro-birth control advocate who did free clinic work for women who had botched abortions. I never asked but he may have also performed abortions. If not he sure knew doctors that would.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. Or won't ever have to face such a situation themselves

I seem to see screaming men most often pictured getting the most loud and ugly about the issue.

Sometimes reminding them of their wives and daughters helps, but not always.

[lunatica]

12. Well I prefer 'pro-choice' to the too often used 'pro-abortion'

Listen carefully and you'll notice that the Republicans are using the term pro-abortion more and more. I read somewhere (can't find it now) a quote from Orrin Hatch using the term 'pro-abortion'. It's deliberate.

[mwb970]

14. Who would be "pro-abortion"?

Probably just the members of the Democrat Socialist Party.

:eyes:

[davsand]

15. Nobody WANTS to face an unwanted pregnancy.

I do not know of a single woman who ever woke up one morning and thought, "EUREKA! I have a plan for my life--I'm gonna get knocked up and than have an abortion!" It is a painful gut wrenching thing for anyone to face and I sincerely doubt the sanity of anyone who claims that people are "pro abortion."

I AM, however, firmly supportive of any woman's right to choose when she bears a child. That has to be her choice because a humane society either offers the absolute ability to make EVERY pregnancy a chosen one or else it offers the ability to safely terminate a pregnancy that is not freely chosen.

They can play with language all they want to, but the bottom line is that most people feel that women should have the ability to decide for themselves if they want to be pregnant, just as most people feel that pregnancy should be a freely chosen thing.


Laura

[madeline_con]

16. Those who would take away that right seem to be louder...

in the public forum. Also, I've noticed a lot of MEN being arrested at Notre Dame ahead of Obama's address. They will never have to make the decision, and should have no voice in the debate, IMO.

[Wetzelbill]

20. I would say those men who want to

impose that on women should have no real voice in the debate, but lots of men have an important voice in this too. These medical decisions impact the women in our lives and they are people who we care for too, so while I may never have to make that decision, I fully support the right of somebody I care for if she ever has to make a decision like that. I think that supportive voice is important in the debate because it counters those men who want to impose something on women that they should have no right to do.

[madeline_con]

22. True enough, point taken. I stand corrected.

:hi:

[Wetzelbill]

24. I should say

I don't feel that it's a totally equal voice though. It can't be because we would never have to make that decision with our own bodies. But we can offer our support and show we care.

[davsand]

34. Very often the most emotional argument comes from the men.

I noticed that many years ago when I was out there working as a clinic escort and staffing the NARAL information booth.

Frankly, I do feel the men should have a voice in the individual decisions women make. I do not feel their voice should reign supreme over that of the women involved, but I do think the whole situation is a problem they both contributed something to--therefore the discussion needs to be between them.

Years ago I dated a man that loved kids. He was just a super sweet guy and he treated me very well. He had a niece that was a special needs kid and he truly was remarkable with her--which was pretty cool to see in an 80's era construction worker in his mid-20's. I had no doubts that he would be an amazing father to any kid.

He held the opinion that life does begin at conception.

He disagreed with my opinions on choice for women (especially my public activities in support of NARAL) but he was intelligent enough to know that he had no ability to stop me. It was a point of disagreement that we never resolved. We were both extremely careful about contraception, but I do think that difference of opinion ultimately colored how I felt about him.

He was sincere, and he was not some monster attempting to control women. He was a nice guy that I did not agree with and our differences were enough that ultimately, I think it contributed to the end of our relationship.

I think maybe that experience gave me a bit more compassion for the men's perspective in the discussion, but I never have wavered from my assertion that it IS ultimately MY body and my decision.

I honestly think that the ONLY way we will ever see a cultural peace on the subject is to work to make abortion a rare procedure. I think the only way we will ever see an end to the debate is when the control of fertility is SO good that there is no such thing as an unplanned pregnancy and there IS no more need for abortion services.

Until that day comes I'm still out there working to keep the decision in the hands of the women and the docs.


Laura

[Proud Liberal Dem]

18. Here's what MSNBC is saying about that BS poll

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30782728/

'Pro-choice' is overtaken
Obama's appearance at Notre Dame would appear to be complicated by new polls that show Americans' attitudes on the issue have shifted toward the ANTI-ABORTION (emphasis mine) position.

:wtf:

[lunatica]

21. Language is how they manipulate the base

Code words work for them. Words tacked on like 'agenda' to gay, or pro-abortion to liberals, or anti-abortion to Christians, or second ammendment to God Given Rights are truly charged and connect to the lizard brain. Most of us can overcome that brain with reason and rationality, but you have to be self observant to do that. Too many just want dogma and dogmatic leaders telling them what to think.

Pavlov's dogs come to mind, only instead of a bell being the cue, it's word cues.

[fishwax]

19. yep -- "pro-life" has become akin to a genericized trademark

I think the recent poll saying more are pro-life is just evidence that the bogus "pro-life" framing of the debate, which was so effective for the right in the 80s and 90s, is undergoing a collapse.

[kentuck]

27. Exactly...

A lot of people have decided that they will not be labeled as "anti-life". They believe they can be "pro-life" and "pro-choice" and support the Constitution of the United States. They refuse to be painted into a corner by the so-called "pro-lifers". We are all "pro-life". We do not accept their labeling any longer.

[Kerrytravelers]

28. Interestingly, only 23% thought Roe should be overturned. The rest don't. So, 77% are pro-choice.

But that headline doesn't get the attention that MOST AMERICANS ARE PRO-LIFE get.

American Journalism has completed circling the drain and is not officially down the pipes.

[Wetzelbill]

32. I know, right?

How interesting is it that on MTP, for example, none of that was noted? lol You just have to shake your head at this stuff. It doesn't work anymore either. If it did we'd have President McCain, Vice President Palin, Senate Majority Leader McConnell and Speaker of the House Boehner right now.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. You hit it with your second paragraph

"pro-life" is a term specifically created and successfully employed to imply that those who are against a woman's right to make personal medical decisions herself are somehow morally superior. It's an intentionally broad term, and one most people would wish to associate with on the surface.

The problem of course, is that it doesn't describe even remotely those who are anti-choice. I'm passionately pro-choice, for instance, but of course I'm "pro-life" as well... Personally, I'm absoltely opposed to the death penalty, I think we as a people have an obligation to provide for the least among us, and an abortion wouldn't be my personal choice. However, I will absolutely protect another woman's right to make her own personal choice.

I had a conversation with my (quite Catholic and devout) mother during the election which provides a good illustration. Her pals had filled her with the notion that Biden was "pro-abortion". I simply explained his position on the issue (like mine, above), and my mother immediately had her eyes opened: "why that's exactly how I feel about it!". Bingo, Mom.

Pro-life has been used to distort the real agenda of most of the anti-abortion movement: restricting women's rights to their own reproduction choices. It's not about "life" - or we'd see far more of the same people out protesting unjust wars, torture and the death penalty. It's about subordinating women.

[DU GrovelBot]

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