When the Allied Forces Liberated the Concentration Camps, German Citizens Were Forced

[tekisui]

to tour the camps to witness what had been done in their name, in their own cities by their government.

Some in local governments and members of the Nazi party were even forced to transport and care for the living and bury the dead.

We need to see ALL of the evidence of torture that has not been destroyed. Little old conservative grandparents need to see what was done in our name. Children in school need to be shocked, so they will never forget. We need to put on full display for our country what was done in our name.

Every bit of it, no matter how disturbing.

[R. P. McMurphy]

1. k & r n/t

[patrice]

2. Hope you don't think it off topic, but: We also need to see some of the Iraqis WE have killed,

especially the Children.

[PatSeg]

5. Yes

I know it is coming and it will be devastating. The forgotten victims of the last eight years.

[patrice]

10. Personally, I feel it will be a further Sacrilege committed against their Lives, to show their Death

(there will be ghouls watching) but, unfortunately, we NEED to SEE these poor DESECRATED Lives in order to fight the phony "Pro-Lifers" who basically put BushCo in office and who ARE INDEED gearing up as we speak to fight genuine Social, Economic, and Environmental Justice to their and our deaths, I'm sorry to say.

America NEEDS to see what we have done to Iraq and I am very sorry for that SAD sacriligeous necessity.

[PatSeg]

88. Indeed, it is necessary

Abusers need to see the consequences of their abuse and the abused should not be forgotten.

[pleah]

8. I agree.

:(

[defendandprotect]

91. Absolutely . . . and maybe even our government will start acknowledging the numbers on that --!!!

[trickyguy]

123. Absolutely true. We ALL need to share the brutal truth about Iraq.

It's no different than what was done by the Germans in WWII.

Today we all are responsible so we all must see what crimes we have committed.

What lives we have destroyed under the quise of "the war against terrorism".

What a sham.

[indepat]

3. Appropriate analogy: our national collective noses need to be thoroughly rubbed

in the entire collection of atrocities associated with our Iraqi venture so no one can disavow knowledge of what was done in our name. :P

[patrice]

7. That's my problem with it. As much as I personally have disavowed it, WE did it. I am involved.

and I resent the HELL out of that.

This is why I will NEVER be able to forget.

[BlooInBloo]

48. Yup.

[Captain Hilts]

4. They had to help clean up the camps. nt

[newspeak]

29. in college, we watched actual footage of the allies going into the concentration camps

I believe it was British footage. They filmed the camp survivors, as well as, the emaciated dead. It surprised me that they also filmed Nazi officers of these camps being shot in the head and the camp soldiers digging the vast graves. There were quite a few students who couldn't take watching the film, they had to leave the class. One of the scenes that really brought home the concept of we all are complicit, is when the allies brought truck loads of citizens from a town near one of the camps. They were unloaded from the trucks, smiling and waving to the camera. They brought them into the camps to help dig the graves and carry the bodies into the graves. They weren't smiling then. If we know of atrocities being committed against humanity and do nothing, by our own apathy, we are complicit.

Am I saying that the torture situation is the same as the camps? No!!! But, when the media is making torture into a debate, torture that includes waterboarding as well as other inhumane procedures, then it seems that this country's moral compass has been damaged. There shouldn't even be debate about torture--IT IS ILLEGAL--IT IS IMMORAL!!!!!!!!!!! And, what is being done about it--it's being debated.

[Raksha]

54. I'm for it--fly them all over there to Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, wherever...

ALL the torture enablers, the evangelical megachurch pastors and their flocks. Make them clean up those places personally, with their own hands. And the prisoners too--make them look at the children who were raped in front of their parents and the whole bit. And make them bury the dead...again with their own hands.

Maybe THEN those "patriotic Christian Americans" will finally take the blinders off.

[patrice]

61. Make War Supporters PAY to rebuild Iraq. Money is the ONLY thing they CARE about.

[Captain Hilts]

102. I'm not complicit in the Holocaust. nt

[cali]

6. Well, true enough about Germany

but we need to stop comparing what we did re torture with what the Nazis did. It's just not analogous anymore than what the French did was analogous. Doesn't mean it wasn't awful, doesn't mean you're not absolutely right about all information on torture being released, but the comparisons to the Nazi atrocities doesn't really work.

I know most here don't agree, but degree matters. When folks say, oh, it's just a matter of degree, my response is; maybe, but degree matters. A lot.

[dalaigh lllama]

11. It's not the Nazi comparison that he's highlighting, it's how the citizenry needs educating

It's too easy to ignore what's been done in our name unless there is a complete expose' of the atrocities -- the raped women and children, the murdered detainees, the decimated Iraqi populace. Our natural tendency is to gloss over this stuff, and the only way to make us more vigilant in the future is an in-your-face-look-what-we-have-done exposure. And it's too easy to say, well, at least we're not as bad as the Nazis.

[cali]

12. it's not about saying we're

not as bad as the Nazis. And yes, I agree that the evidence of what was done needs to be made public for all to see.

[dalaigh lllama]

14. A bit of an aside on the holocaust

Have you ever thought about how the Holocaust is considered by many as a singularity in atrocity? People know on some level that holocausts occurred under Stalin (tens of millions) and Pol Pot (@25% of Cambodians, but "only" a million or so) but because of the lack of documentation, these atrocities are only a statistic in a history book. The singularity of the Nazi holocaust is that they couldn't sweep their deeds under a rug because they lost total power -- most nations are never forced to do such a mea culpa.

I have talked to modern day Germans about this -- there is a deep shame about what was done by Hitler and a fierce resolve to never let it happen again. Then on the opposite side of the coin you have the Turks, who somehow think if they don't talk about the Armenian massacre, it never happened.

The tough task will be getting Americans to face our own deeds without rationalization. I guess we'll have to see how that works out.

[cali]

16. not only have I thought about it, I studied it in grad school.

you're quite right that documentation is the chief reason that the Holocaust (and honestly, that's how virtually all historians refer to it) is so well studied and considered such a singular event. It's not however, the only one. The mechanization of death is also a factor as well as the systematic steps taken to achieve that goal.

But let's look at other societies post-Nuremberg that instituted and practiced torture- France and Spain, for instance. what do you think it's done to French and Spanish culture that those societies that their citizenry never facced up to what they did? And let me reiterate: I think it's important that we face up to what our gov't did. Whether it will make a major difference or not, is another thing.

[dalaigh lllama]

35. I have to confess my ignorance on this

France and Spain instituted torture post-Nuremberg? I had never heard this before...

Just went and looked up France's history on this and saw the stories on Algerian torture in the 50's and 60's. I had no clue about this! Didn't delve too deeply, but it looks as tho they decided to sweep it under the rug "for the good of the country", or am I wrong on this?

[cali]

98. no, you're not wrong. France issued 2 amnesties for the torture

committed in Algeria. Spain assiduously avoided dealing with the horrendous act committed under Franco until 2008 and that inquiry lasted all of a month.

[JDPriestly]

131. I lived in two countries -- Austria and W. Germany, both complicit

in the Holocaust. (Mauthausen was in Austria; Dachau in w. Germany, for example.) W.Germans were compelled to face their past and to deal with the NAZI crimes. Austrians managed to pass themselves off as victims -- both in the eyes of some in the world and in their own.

The many West Germans that I met regretted the Holocause and the NAZI era in general and were determined never to allow such mistakes to occur ever again. In Austria, I met many, repeat, many, apologists for the NAZI era. I even met quite a bit of anti-Jewish sentiment. Please understand that I lived in these countries for long enough to know a lot of people well.

So, being faced with the evidence of your crimes makes a huge difference. I would say that W. Germany has become, in many respects, a beacon for human rights. Free speech is (or at least was in the 1990s) guaranteed for workers. By that I mean that an employer pretty much could not fire a person for exercising free speech. For example, an apprentice could not be fired for expressing his strong disapproval of nuclear energy. In our country, workers do not have that right, believe it or not.

Americans still have time to make a choice. But they need to see what the choices look like. That's the way Americans are.

[mmonk]

164. Someone said we are using the Algerian war model to me.

I can't remember where I heard it.

[bvar22]

114. To your list of "Holocausts" you could add....

...the Native Americans.

[puebloknot]

145. Indeed. And there's a book called "American Holocaust" on that subject. nt

[Enthusiast]

155. The treatment of Native Americans

and slavery are two issues that the U.S.A. has not faced up to. Reich Wing zealots will often insist that the pre-Columbian native population was very small in North and South America. As if somehow killing one million wasn't as bad as killing tens of millions. I have actually had Republicans tell me the entire native population was no more than one million. Now that is ridiculous.

[ColesCountyDem]

126. Another bit of an aside about the Holocaust...

A dear family friend and his wife were fortunate enough to have escaped internment by fleeing before the invasion of Poland in 1939. This gentleman-- a skilled surgeon who was both educated and trained at Heidelberg University-- could almost not accept what was being done by the Nazi's, since his personal experience with the German people had been a positive one: they were educated, industrious, honest, cultured, etc. . When he and Ruth returned to Germany in 1961, as tourists, he became reacquainted with many people he had known pre-WW2, and to a one they expressed deep shame and regret and, without exception, asked for his forgiveness for what had been done in their names and what most had chosen to turn a blind eye toward. Being the wonderful man he was, he did forgive them-- he had, in fact, forgiven them long ago.

I hope that I can be such a person, if ever faced with a similar situation.

[tekisui]

40. There is plenty of room between us being very very wrong and

what the Nazis did. The point wasn't so much that we our government is like the Nazis, but that the citizenry, especially the torture deniers/apologists, may not understand what we actually have done, until they see it with their own eyes.

[newspeak]

50. if you read it fully Cali

I stated that I wasn't comparing to the Nazis--I was comparing the apathy of the civilians, even knowing what was going on--their apathy to the situation. But hey, nothing compares to what the Nazis did, right???? Just remember it wasn't just jews in those camps-there were German dissidents, homosexuals, Socialist Catholic priests and nuns, Gypsies, Slavs, etc..... My friend was in one of those camps and she was not Jewish, she was Greek!!!! It's not Jews now days being targeted like the Muslims, still homosexuals, those damn liberal socialists, athiests, etc..... See, the enemy has surely changed--but it's still the same bullshite propaganda!!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. Frankly, there is virtually no difference between what we are (or were, three months ago)

doing and what the Nazis were doing in 1935.

Political prisoners, torture, war of aggression, suppression of dissent, you name it. Iraq/Afghanistan are our Spain. We have, I hope, managed to stop here - the tours of Auschwicz and Buchenwald would have never happened had the Nazis been stopped in '35.

[JDPriestly]

132. You are correct.

[Enthusiast]

156. People seem to forget that

these abuses escalate. They didn't start out as the full blown Hitler's Nazi Germany as we know it. This was a gradual process.

[Two Americas]

110. degree versus amount

I think we need to make a distinction between degree and amount. There are not degrees of torture, and the number of people affected does not change anything morally. Torture is torture, and torturing one person is as wrong as torturing many.

The principles upon which Germans were tried and convicted do not depended upon how many people were affected.

Once the barriers to torture are broken down, it is merely a matter of time before it gets worse and the numbers grow. The antidote - the only way to stop it - is to hold people accountable.


...

[JDPriestly]

133. Yes. Two Americas. Please see my post above in which

I discussed the timeline of the development from Hitler's election in 1930 to the Holocaust which was just an idea really until it began slowly in the late 1930s -- 1938 -the end of the war. Each year the persecution became more serious.

The torture could be the beginning or the end. It's up to Americans. And one bit of information that Americans need to make up their minds about what kind of country they want to be is all of the evidence about the torture.

[Two Americas]

140. we have the benefit of hindsight

We have the benefit of hindsight in regards to events in Europe in the 30's and 40's. By the time we are able to see where things are leading, it is far too late to stop them.

[JDPriestly]

142. Precisely, Two Americas. That is why we must do two things.

1) Be vigilant.

2) Insist that the rule of law be respected no matter who does the wrong. The law permits consideration of mitigating circumstances in sentencing. But the law should be enforced with regard to torture and illegal wiretapping. Those are the tools of tyrants -- of dictators. They are the methods of those who wish to abuse power and to intimidate others.

There is no difference between a government that tortures and a gang that tortures. Both are violating the law.

[RoyGBiv]

153. This is exactly the case ...

I guess the subconscious took hold a few weeks back because I don't know why precisely I started rummaging through books I had in storage about the early parts of the Nazi empire, but I did. I found myself quickly in the midst of a reading frenzy of things I'd already read, so I started looking for new things and consumed that as well.

The long and short of it was I guess I was re-familiarizing myself with the process by which mass groups of people transition into a society that without much in the way of dissent countenances wholesale slaughter. The answer is obvious but all too often ignored.

Wholesale slaughter doesn't just happen. It's a process, even amongst those who originally instigate it.

There is no way to form a logical, rational direct comparison between Nazi Germany and the United States today, but there are lessons to be learned from studying the origins of Nazi Germany that are applicable to our circumstances today. Not even Hitler began without outright extermination of Jews and other groups. A question remains whether what happened was, strictly speaking, his original intent, and it is certain that his plans for it were not formulated clearly upon his rise to power. Too many people forget that the Nazis were in power for 6-7 years before wholesale slaughter began, the assembly line version of it being initiated only after the initial, halting stages had been taking place for some time. The time before was one of an almost unconscious march into extremity.

First the Jews were just bankers and traitors who had brought financial and military ruin on the German people as a whole via a vast, worldwide conspiracy. Then they were vermin. Then they were dead. First they were ostracized, then had their legal rights removed, then herded together and marked, then expelled, then murdered. All that was a long process, and it began with smaller steps and no one questioning those steps, mostly because (and this is the important point) they just didn't care all that much.

Best to sweep that nasty business under the rug; it's just Jews, and they are responsible for all our ills.

Even as late as 1938, complaints arose about the treatment of Jews and others when the authorities seemed to go to far, so it was toned down, then secreted away even deeper so that while everyone knew it was happening, they didn't *see* it happening. Thus, it didn't affect them. Out of site, out of mind, to borrow a phrase.

Our leaders know this all too well, which is why torture pictures and, more broadly, any depictions of battlefield atrocity are kept as much as possible from the eyes of the public. It's a lot easier not to care if you don't see it, even if you know it is happening, and when enough people don't care, you can become ever more brutal without fear of popular sanction.

[Two Americas]

167. yes

It does no good to compare anything that is happening hear to the events in Germany, when we look at the events there from a post-1945 perspective, after we already knew how it would all turn out. What was happening in '32, '33, '34, when there was still a possibility of stopping it?


...

[Vattel]

117. excellent point.

[JDPriestly]

130. Hitler's reign of terror started as all such reigns do, slowly.

Hitler did not just set up concentration camps. First, they broke the windows of homes of the Jews and took other, milder repressive steps. The establishment of the concentration camps did not begin until much later.

Hitler was elected in September 1930.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/elect.htm

He did not assert himself as a dictator until March 1933.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/dictator.htm

On April 1, 1933, the NAZIS began to boycott Jewish businesses.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-boycott.htm

The violence against Jews became serious in 1938 -- 8 years after Hitler was first elected.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/triumph/tr-knacht.htm

Concentration camps began in 1939 or so -- gradually.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html

[pleah]

9. K&R

[formercia]

13. My father was at Dachau

He was part of a lead recon element for the 45th Division. He was OSS and had been in combat since North Africa. He had seen a lot of bad things up to then, but the camps were too much for even him.

He told me they dragged the SS out of the barracks and shot them on the spot. The figures vary but he told me his unit shot 175. They were just little fish.

It's ironic that some of the big fish later went to work for the CIA.

[Sequoia]

59. Why did they not run away, they must've known the allies were on their way.

[formercia]

64. The senior officers left prior to the arrival of the Amenrican troops.

I suspect that the senior Nazis knew what would happen to the guards. Dead men tell no tales. If they had escaped, they might have lived to testify against their superiors.

[Sequoia]

69. So who shot the guards...the Americans?

Why wouldn't they keep them as prisoners and have them testify against the higher-ups? (scratches head)

[formercia]

74. According to my father, who was there.

SS guards were using wooden-tipped bullets to execute prisoners. The bullets were originally designed as blanks for ceremonial purposes, but at point-blank range, they were lethal.
Any guards found in possession of this type of ammunition were summarily shot.
It probably turned into a feeding frenzy when the horrors of the camp soon became apparent.
A US General who arrived later put a stop to it. There were quite a few guards that did survive.

He had a stripper clip of the ammunition as a souvenir. When I found it and asked him about it is when he told me the story (1955). It looked like standard issue 8x57 JS rifle ammunition except for the wooden bullets which were dyed red and green.

[Sequoia]

77. Wow. I bet he wishes he hadn't been there.

It would haunt me, all of it.

[formercia]

78. It haunted him for the rest of his life

He was always afraid that, some day, he would get a tap on the shoulder and be hauled of to prison.
There was also a lot of anger there and he took it out on his family, so is a minor way, we were victims of Dachau as well.
He never got any counseling. They gave him a job for life with a government contractor and made it all go away. It never did go away.

Anyone involved in these acts of inhumanity will need long-term help.

[Sequoia]

83. My dad was in Germany.

But as kids we didn't want to hear about it. Now, that he's gone I wish I had know more about it. He did tell us many of his friends were killed and that he found a pearl necklace but dropped it in the bushes when the Nazis were coming towards them. Something like that. My aunts told me the war affected him too but he wouldn't talk about it. I'm sorry your dad and you all had to suffer for it. No doubt hundreds upons hundreds never got over "the greatest generation" war. War is hell, just like General William T. Sherman said.

[formercia]

85. Towards the end of his life he tried to talk with me about it

I wasn't ready to deal with it. I wish now that I had listened.

War kills for many years after the guns stop.

[Daphne08]

154. War kills for many years after the guns stop.

You are so right.

I just can't bring myself to talk about it, but you are right.

[Zywiec]

95. I didn't think summarily executing prisoners was legal?

Who knew?

:shrug:

[formercia]

99. It wasn't legal.

People snapped. What would you have done if you were one of the first to see the carnage there?

I think it would have been better to treat them as prisoners of war and give them due process.

[Posteritatis]

66. Say what you will about the SS

...But quite a few of them stuck to their guns beyond any kind of hope or reason. I'm sure quite a few of them probably actually thought they were experiencing the Gotterdammerung or something like that. There's a reason the Soviets lost several thousand people just taking the burned-out ruins of the Reichstag.

The saner ones probably thought "better the western Allies than the Soviets," and they were probably right even though they were shot on thet spot.

[Sequoia]

71. Sort of like: How do you choose to die?

I read a book about Napoleon's retreat from Russia and the people that were behind got caught by the very angry Russian peasants who tied them up to a large fallen tree trunk stripped of its branches and set on fire. I guess I'd rather be shot.

[Posteritatis]

72. That too

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some among their number who, even then, thought they could win the war, though. Some of the indoctrination going on in Germany had people by 1945 who'd make some of the most glass-chewing ten-percenters in the US look like Carl Sagan at times.

[madamesilverspurs]

101. Remember reading somewhere

that the training for SS rather thoroughly removed the ability to function on any scale of emotional normalcy. No sorrow, no joy, no anger, no conscience.

[shadowknows69]

105. You mean like most military training?

You have to turn men into animals for them to kill other men like animals. Usually it's not that hard of a push.

[Captain Hilts]

103. Run toward the Red Army????????? NOT an option for the Germans. nt

[fuggbush21]

15. It absolutely disgusts me

That you are compairing the actions of the US Military in it's prisons, with the Nazi Concentration camps.

And people here said I was wrong in the anti-military sentiment of this place. :eyes:

I'm friends with a number of AF Security Forces who have served as prison guards. The only case of violence that they EVER committed against the prisoners was when one of them was forced to shoot a prisoner in the shoulder during a prison uprising. This prisoner had gotten ahold of rifle and was using it to try to kill US Soldiers.

But hey, what does it matter. Their no better then Nazi scum. :puke:

[izzybeans]

18. You didn't read the op.

It compares Germans supporting the Holocaust to Americans supporting torture.

Subject clauses provide the clue.

[fuggbush21]

24. Even if that is the case.

Your deluding yourself if you think that things like sleep deprivation and water boarding is anywhere near the level of mass shootings, gas chambers, starvations, and the like.

And there is still the assertation that the US Military is allowing and supporting such "atrocities" to happen.

[tekisui]

30. We can talk again when more pictures are released.

First of all, waterboarding, stress positions, etc are TORTURE. period.

Second, there was also rape, beatings, broken limbs and murder. You want to defend all that? Go ahead.

[Diclotican]

45. fuggbush21

fuggbush21

You know that the US armed forces was excecuting japanese soldiers, who had used Waterboarding in their intergetation of GI soldiers in the war?.. You know that some german soldiers, who was responsible for the consentration camps specially if they was in the SS, first could be shoot dead if soldiers was arresting them?.. You know what some american soldiers did to german SS guards, who was taken into custody

And you know what happend to many of them in the decadedes after World war two?

It is different, but the EVIL is the same, and if not americans are just, and are doing the right thing, that is to keep a tag of everything, document it, and make it posible to arrest, prosecute and convict the gulty one, this type of crimes wil araise in the future.. It is an reason most german is ashamed about the whole world war thing, and specially becouse it is so well documented...

And I would be very sure that many proof of both the crimes, and who demanded the crimes is documented clearly in the administration of mr Bush.. The only reason not everyone of them is in dock, accused of war criminals, and to suporting, and give policy according to use of torture, the reason is becouse many american is really _AFRAID_ of it.. Many americans is still living in the fantacy world, where EVERY ONE american soldiers are inocent, and where US alone is the force of good in the universe..

Diclotican

[newspeak]

51. Waterboarding is torture, period!!!

However, I remember the reports coming out of Abu Ghraib. There were other things going on besides waterboarding. Holding wives and children hostage for information with torturing the children, rape, being beaten to death. So, you think it's only waterboarding? My daughter and son-in-law are in the military, my son-in-law is in Iraq--do you think they believe in torture???? They would have refused the command on the spot and taken the consequences!!! I know because I've spoken to my daughter about what would happen if she was put in the situation.

It's amazing you've jumped to the conclusion that this is about comparing the concentration camps to the torturing now. It's about people's apathy or willingness to use some of the same techniques that are considered torture. "Those who believe absurdities are willing to commit atrocities."

[izzybeans]

53. Torture is illegal. Do you comprehend?

[keepCAblue]

68. Two words fer ya: Abu Ghraib ---->

[JanMichael]

97. How about sanctions and war results that kill millions?

Or is that too abstract for you?

[JerseygirlCT]

113. You're (and that's how it's spelled, btw) still missing the point:

This is about sunshine and forcing a group of people to face up (quite literally) to its wrongdoing. This is about making sure the American people see and understand just what has been done in their name.

[JDPriestly]

135. And boycotting Jewish businesses and vandalism on Jewish

properties were not the Holocaust either. But that is how the NAZIs started. The torture moved us in a dangerous direction just as the boycott and vandalism against Jews in Germany in the 1930s moved the Germans in a dangerous direction. This is the time to stop and think and make sure we don't take a wrong turn. That is why Americans need to see what was done and consider what direction they should go.

[Enthusiast]

158. It starts with name calling

and placing blame on a group of people. A direct comparison can be made with Rush Limbaugh's tirades against 'liberals'. He blames liberals for every ill in society. The same exact thing happened in early 1930s Germany. Instead of radio the brown shirts and Hitler used beer halls to spread misinformation about Jews.

[Djinn]

144. and you are DEMONSTRABLY deluding yourself

Do you actually know what "water boarding" is?

Do you know what "stress positions" really are?

Do you know how many "ghost prisoners" there are?

Honestly you are exemplifying the point made in the OP and it's embarrassing

[Selatius]

149. If it's still defined as torture, then you can go to prison for engaging in such acts.

Waterboarding may not be as severe as dental torture or nail torture or some of the other things the Nazis did, but according to the laws of war, you would end up in prison just the same as those thugs.

[L0oniX]

19. So you think everyone should be pro military?

Some of us here are old enough to remember Kent State. Some of us remember the Mai Lai massacre and I was told by other vets, that was not the only massacre. Point is ...we have a right to make up our own minds about the what the military does in our name. Just following orders is no excuse. It scares me that I have people living and working around me that have been in the military. I don't and will never trust them because at any time they can be used by our government, become like nazis and torture me or worse ...shoot me during a protest. Have you ever been shot at during a protest? ...didn't think so.

[fuggbush21]

22. And you've been shot at during a protest?

Yeah, I doubt it.

I do bet you're the type of person who called me a baby killer when I was walking through downtown St. Petersburg, Fl. with my father, after returning from an OEF Deployment though.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tabasco]

128. LOL. You sound like a rear echelon puke making up war stories.

They called you a baby killer, eh? Smells like bullshit to me.

There's lots of military on this site so don't try to bullshit the bullshitters, pal.

If you can't stand different opinions - go find an echo chamber somewhere.

Otherwise, learn to debate like an adult and stop fucking lying.

[Hannah Bell]

147. did they spit on you too? damn hippies, they apparently met every plane.

[Enthusiast]

159. What if someone did call you a baby killer

BFD! A citizenry that blindly worships the military becomes nazi-like. I have met many people that think the military can do no wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

20. The OP wasn't comparing our military prisons to Nazi concentration camps.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[izzybeans]

26. By a mix of contracters, CIA, and troops...what's that have to do with

citizens in need of an education?

We live in a country that believes this is justified...despite it violating our own and international laws. Yes some of our troops tortured, but we are all to blame, this was done in our name under orders from a President, presumably, elected by citizens.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html

[conscious evolution]

57. Military personnel were involved

Hell we had a poster here on DU,sanskrit warrior(long since TS'ed) who was a member of the MI Battalion at Abu Ghraib.
He bragged on DU about torturing people.
Justified it by saying it"protected american lives".
Bullshit.

[me b zola]

28. Ah, so you are a torture denier

You are in the wrong place. When you leave here just take a right and you will find your way home.

[EFerrari]

46. There are documented instances of torture in Iraq, Afghanistan,

Gitmo and Thailand. CIA also had secret prisons around the world and on the sea so they could torture in peace. Alleged torture, my ass.

[tekisui]

23. Torture should disgust you. It should digust every American that it

was done in our name. I am talking about the citizenry of a country defending or supporting policies that they may not entirely understand. Barf all you want. I hope many, many more Americans barf at what our country did.

This is not anti-military. It is anti-torture. Every person involved was a cog in the torture wheel and responsible.

And, violence was committed against detainees by the US. Soldiers, interrogators from the DoD, CIA and contractors committed torture. Over 100 detainees died, at least 27 were murdered. We don't have to be as bad as Nazis to be very very wrong.

[EFerrari]

32. It should disgust you more that the Pentagon called all over in 2002

trying to find out who could put a torture program together for them.

[crimsonblue]

70. The citizens of the US are no better than Nazi Germany citizens..

The Germans allowed the atrocities to occur all around them, and turned a blind eye to it. Similarly, the evidence is indisputable of the atrocities Americans have committed in the past 8 years, and yet Americans turned a blind eye or choose to defend the indefensible. Torture is torture no matter who carries it out. The torture of 1 Muslim or Arab is no different than the torture of 1 Jew, Gypsy, homosexual, or Slav during the Holocaust. Torture is illegal, WITHOUT exception. When we fail to remember the horrors of the past, we continue to repeat them.

[Cleita]

109. Most of us did not turn a blind eye when the torture pictures came out.

We really tried to get our Senators and Congress people to address these horrors. But we were ignored just like our nation wide protests were ignored on the march to war with Iraq. Those who did turn a blind eye were our Congress who should have investigated the matter immediately and thoroughly. Instead our Congress let the Bush administration and the Pentagon to carry on as usual with the aiding and abetting of our "liberal media". I hope in the future any and all who were complicit in this national shame are brought to justice no matter how long it takes.

[Thothmes]

112. American crimes go much further back than the last 8 years

200 years of destruction of the Native populations of this country. Wars against Mexico, Spain, Phillipines, Vietnam The interment of 120,000 American because they were Japanese ancetory. We shot Germans trying to surrender, we shot Japanese military in the water, we shot Japanese wounded soldiers. the fact that we would rough of some Iraqs should be of no shock to anyone that really understands our history.

[crimsonblue]

115. and we continue to repeat the mistakes of history.

why?

[Thothmes]

173. There may be not satisfactory answer to your question

That is one of the great failings of human kind.

[Enthusiast]

160. In truth the American people

were faced with the most effective propaganda machine ever devised. It was 24/7 Ra Ra Ra for the Iraq War!

[fascisthunter]

75. and cowards like you disgust me further

because of people like you who intentional warp what others say in order to stifle the truth and prevent this country from being a better place, there are sick people who get elected and do this sick nazi-like shit to people around the World in our name.

No one is calling our whole military nazi, but there are nazi-like whackos who get off on torturing, raping and killing people, who unfortunately do exist in our military, just as there are whackos in every other facet of life. People like you expect the whole country to walk lockstep behind some fruity idea that if any one says anything about anyone in our military they are somehow ant-military or unamerican. Well... it's the complete opposite you fool!!!

Go whine on Free republikkk where you belong.

[Enthusiast]

161. +1, fascisthunter! nt

[Captain Hilts]

104. Agree. nt

[fascisthunter]

165. it figures

you agreed with a troll.

[Captain Hilts]

171. A troll who doesn't like equating what our military has done with what Fascist Germany did. I agree

[JDPriestly]

134. Please see my post No. 130.

Most German soldiers were good people, just soldiers. Only a small minority of Germans worked in the camps. And the Holocaust was not a sudden full-blown policy. The Holocaust began with mild forms of discrimination and then escalated into general sadism.

The torture is a form of sadism. Most American soldiers are not sadists. (My husband is a veteran as are other men in my family.)

The problem with the torture is that it is was ordered or authorized by people at the highest levels of our government. That is how it resembles the NAZI Holocaust -- which was also authorized and sponsored by the leaders of the country.

The torture was not a question of people in the military or even the CIA doing the wrong thing. It was a matter of high level government officials making the decision to authorize illegal acts.

[uppityperson]

138. Hey, you are finally TS'd. Good

[Djinn]

143. you really think your friends would ever admit to you

that they tortured someone? not by any stretch saying they did but your basis that they didn't is nonsense.

Most camp guards deny that THEY ever did anything wrong as well.

US forces (from several agencies) DISAPPEARED, TORTURED & MURDERED PEOPLE

That is not in doubt by anyone but the willfully ignorant.

If someone tortures and murder then YES they are no better than Nazi scum.

[Enthusiast]

157. You sound like Faux News

Mischarachterize first. Nothing was said about the U.S. Military. This is all about abuses by The Bush Administration.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[me b zola]

25. Are you denying that torture occurred?

Are you denying the brutality inflicted upon many of the detainees? That sure seems to be what you are asserting with your warm, fuzzy, pro-propaganda pics. Do you agree with Rush that GITMO is like a tropical spa for detainees?

[tekisui]

27. You missed the point, entirely.

We abused, tortured and killed detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo. Many of whom were innocent.

We don't have to be as bad as Nazis to be very very wrong. You are either an idiot, a torture apologist or willfully ignorant.

[me b zola]

31. This poster seems to be a torture denier

In their post above this one that you are responding to they put torture in quotations. Reason will not reach this poster.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tekisui]

42. OMG!!!

You are a torture apologist! At least I know who I am communicating with. How do you feel about beatings, rape and murder of detainees?

[Echo In Light]

44. ...and the CHILD SODOMY videos

[Echo In Light]

43. Afghani goat farmers have as much to do w/"terrorism" as Bugs bunny

[DevonRex]

47. We get it. You like to torture people. You believe everything Bush ever said.

[Lars39]

49. You're warped.

[Hugabear]

52. "These people are hardened killers" - and you know this how?

Oh that's right, they probably "confessed" during TORTURE.

Get lost, right-wing assclown.

[Ignis]

55. "Water Boarding is not, and has never been torture."

You, sir, are a tool, a troll, and a scoundrel.

You give a bad name to everyone who has ever served in the US military.

Enjoy your pizza.

[Lerkfish]

60. oh, you guys are always so adorable!

I always love the names you pick, too.

now shoo! go back over the fence where you belong....

[judesedit]

120. Some dumber than dirt

[me b zola]

62. You have either been under a rock and have not been exposed to the mountains of evidence that proves

you wrong, or you are here as a propagandist.

Do you not understand that the recently released memos prove that the instances of abuse and torture were not isolated incidents, but policy that came from the Pentagon & White House? You claim to wear a uniform (I'm assuming you mean to imply that you are a member of the armed services), how do you feel about enlisted service people going to prison while Gen. Miller who brought those "techniques" with him from GITMO still walks free? Those recently released memos have been all over the news, so if you are going to deny them and what reveal, then I won't waste my time on all of the evidence of the percentage of people who it has been proven to be Innocent of terrorism and other acts against the US. You don't want to know the truth.

We are a nation of laws, that is our beauty and what, when we are at our best, makes us a great nation. Water boarding has since the inquisition been used as torture, and has always been been illegal here in the US and in international law. You know damned well that we prosecuted Japanese soldiers during WWII for water boarding, and courts martialed US soldiers torture via water boarding during the Vietnam War.

Not every detainee was tortured, but torture was widespread--and it came ordered from the bush* administration. I don't give a rat's ass who you claim to have talked to, you are ignoring evidence right in front of you.

[olegramps]

73. If you are indeed in the military and are representative of our soldiers, we are in trouble.

Firstly, I really doubt that you are in the military. But, if you are you then sadly you are representative of the low life types that were easily convinced to engage in horrible acts and actually appeared to be enjoying it. I bet your mom and dad are real proud of you. Do you share your experiences with your brothers and sisters? I bet that you have some real neat photos for you scapbook.

[Echo In Light]

36. There are some that will not abide views/data that make the military or cops look bad/authoritarian

Next to the staunch, crusading conspiracy deniers, the NEVER question authority types are often the loudest on certain internet forums

[Hell Hath No Fury]

33. What a load of propagandist crap.

If you think that is how detainees were being treated in Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, and CIA black sites around the word, you are one deluded fuck.

Our soldiers and intelligence members have engaged in torture, kidnapping, murder, and rape.

Those are the facts. Sorry of you can't handle it.

[EFerrari]

37. This must have been after the bingo game.

[tekisui]

38. What do you think of these?

[Echo In Light]

39. Oh, you mean the "waterboarding." (sarcasm)

[Richard Steele]

56. K&R

[conscious evolution]

58. Good suggestion.

[ejpoeta]

63. don't know if you ever have seen 'band of brothers' based on the

E company's experiences in WWII. it has several parts and goes from the beginning of their training as parachuters to the end of the war. During one part, they find a concentration camp and force the local germans (who had insisted they didn't hear anything or know anything about it or smell the smell). well, those folks, even the wife of a big general or something were marched down to the concentration camp and made to clean up the bodies and such. it is very emotional to watch. i highly recommend this movie which has 8 or 9 parts to it. they have it on the history channel sometimes.

[tekisui]

65. I have seen the reel footage from when that happened.

The regular townsfolk were made to bare witness and clean-up, even bury the bodies. It was something. I haven't seen Band of Brothers, it is still on my list.

[ejpoeta]

67. i haven't seen any actual footage and didn't know there was any!!

but, even though it is a movie, you can see the mortified look on their faces. I can imagine after years of pretending you didn't know or all that denial.... having to come face to face with the reality. they may not have been the ones who did it, but they didn't stand up and keep it from happening either.

[tekisui]

81. They are on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z6Uolqm6gI

That is 1 of 8. I don't remember which ones show the average citizens touring and burying the dead. Most do, IIRC.

[ColbertWatcher]

94. It's mentioned in the second clip at about 52 seconds in ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Ne8S3_6O0#t=52s

[FiveGoodMen]

76. The difference there was that the country perpetrating those crimes was beaten

and the victors made them look at their handiwork.

Here, the perpetrators are still running loose.

No one has beaten them.

[brindis_desala]

84. And there lies the problem. They infest the executive, judiciary and congress.

Pat Leahy is a wise and honorable man.

[Echo In Light]

92. Bingo. And even changing the tone/language of the 'message' won't change that

[MindPilot]

79. the big difference is that unlike the German concentration camps

The is no liberating force moving into Iraq. We ARE the bad guys this time and until we admit that we won't be able to deal with this.

Personally my opinion on dealing with it is if your rank begins with E, you have no responsibility other than to tell what happened. If you are an officer, you had best have a damn good reason why you did not question that illegal order.

[cbc5g]

80. Don't ever equate the holocaust with waterboarding n/t

[tekisui]

82. Did I?

:shrug:

[Echo In Light]

89. That's exactly why it needs to be called TORTURE, and not 'just' waterboarding

[Maineman]

86. Prsecute War Criminals - from top to bottom. They all knew better.

[Seldona]

87. A very difficult decision.

Even possessing some of this media could be grounds for charges. It is a tough call. Should we publicize child rape, at least with audio and visuals? I think therapists everywhere would be overloaded with the amount of new cases. Doesn't mean I don't want those responsible held to account.

We can hold those responsible without having to air what is essentially torture orientated child-porn. Would I watch it? I am not sure it can add anything to my life at this point.

Perhaps to those that haven't been paying attention? But it would only be reinforcing what we already knew, and I question whether the benefits outweigh the possible downsides. And there are a lot of downsides to releasing all of this stuff.

[tekisui]

96. You make some good points.

I think all of it should be made known. If it requires blurred portions or audio only with details on what happened, it is important for the worst of the worst to be put in our faces. On Good Morning America. It should be troubling for people who think this was just college pranks or that it 'was effective' to see the horrors while they are eating their bowls of cereal.

[Juche]

93. I wouldn't compare the torture program to the holocaust

They are different classes of evil. But yes, we do need to be forced to face what has happened in this country. However I doubt we will. We love a good coverup in America.

[jgraz]

108. They are both on the same side of a very bright line.

Eight years ago, most of us thought it impossible that we could become a nation that publicly supports the torture of detainees. Once you allow yourself to be led by monsters, anything is possible.

[Juche]

111. It is the slippery slope argument

And yes you are right. If you get people to make a concession, then come back later and ask them to make a much bigger concession they are much more likely to go along than if you had never done it the first one.

The reality is we were tricked into a war in Iraq, we don't know what happened on 9/11, the justice department has been turned into a tool of political oppression and we have an illegal torture program that has killed roughly 30 people. If we do not get justice and a serious investigation, it will be much easier for a future leader to abuse us and the world too. We have to put our feet down and make amends and enforce justice. Refusing to do so opens the door for the president in 2024 (as a guess) to do the same things, knowing the public will go along with them again. Obama's attempts to hide this issue out of fear of political repercussions is the only thing I'm really disappointed in him for.

[jgraz]

121. It's more like George Bernard Shaw's prostitute story

A certain gentleman inquired of a lady whether she would be willing to sleep with him for 50,000 pounds. After some hesitation, the lady replied that she supposed she would, in consideration of the magnitude of the offer. Then he asked whether she would sleep with him for twopence.

"Certainly not," she responded with indignation. "Just what kind of lady do you think I am?"

"Madam, I believe we have already established that," he remarked calmly. "Now we are just haggling over the price."

Certainly, the Nazis far outpaced us on sheer numbers, but once you agree that it's OK to crush a child's testicles while his parents watch, you're merely "haggling over price".

[truedelphi]

100. Could I relate a personal story of mine?

When the US and our allies defeated Germany, everyone in my dad's platoon was relieved.

They were so pleased that the fighting was over, and that no bullet or mortar. with their name on it, had found a home in their bodies.

One of my dad's close friends was immediately requisitioned away from his platoon. On some kind of secret mission. My dad only knew the next morning his pal did not show up for his breakfast.

Sometime later, this Friend rejoined the group. He refused to talk about what, where, why he had left.

But one day he took my dad aside. He said, "Fred, could you possibly take these pictures back to the states with you. When you get to go home."

My dad agreed.

So then it is many years later. There is a small mahogany desk in our living room, my dad sat and paid the bills there once or twice a month. n the right hand side were two drawers. we kids were allowed into the top drawer - for pipe cleaners to play with, for paper clips or pencils or pens.

We were told to Never ever open the drawer below it.

Strange thing was, we never tried to open it. Not when our parents were gone for hours. Or when we were older, when they were gone for days.

It was "verbotten." We stayed out. There was almost an energy to that bottom drawer - something sinsiter that told us we were better off not going inside it.

Finally at a Thanksgiving Dinner at our kitchen table, when my sister and I were in our twenties, she blurted out, "So Dad, just what was in that bottom drawer?"

He looked stricken, and then he consulted with my mom. So he finally says, "My old Army buddy was an excellent photographer. He was made to leave our platoon and ordered by the Allied Command to go and film various concentration camps across Europe. He could not believe the atrocities that he saw.

"He also believed that the evidence against the Germans would be suppressed. That the dozens and dozens of rolls of film he took for the ALlied High Command would at some point be suppressed from common knowledge. He also thought that he might be eliminated himself."

So apparently my dad had agreed to keep safe some of these rolls of film and developed photos so that should the worst happen, my dad could see to it that the Truth came out.

As we know my father's friend's paranoia did not turn out to be warranted. But I suppose that anyone touring such facilities and meeting the survivors and coming face to face with the stacked and mangled bodies and acres of poorly buried corpses, that that man could not be blamed for being a mite paranoid. He had certainly viewed atrocities that were to that generation, anyway, most unbelievable.

[havocmom]

124. Very powerful testimony, truedelphi. Thank you for sharing that with us

Your father was a noble man to safe keep such proof of man's capacity for evil. Only through remembering do we stand a chance of preventing more.

Having seen some photos from another war, another time, another place, I can understand why so many returning troops are lost to us in their hearts and minds.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

106. I agree. the past 8 years of awful history must be remembered

as a profound learning experience. No matter how disturbing, the consequences of ignorance and hate and greed and religious fundamentalism must be truthfully held in awareness.

[Vidar]

107. K&R.

[knowbody0]

116. and part of our witness should be retribution

[judesedit]

118. Absolutely. Along with the images of innocent Iraqi children maimed by our hand

[judesedit]

119. And Bushco have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives

[Enthusiast]

162. They should be punished

From top to bottom every single one should serve time. Especially that cheerleader asshole Cheney.

[Vattel]

122. I agree,

but at the same time I do think that we need to distinguish sharply what is done to the guilty and what is done to the innocent. Some on this board quickly condemn torturing the guilty (as they should), but are quite complacent about killing and maiming and mutiliating the innocent in war. Don't even mention the possibility that Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Tokyo and Dresden, etc., might have been moral atrocities or you'll be beset with the usual stupid rationalizations of those acts. This nation is capable of virtually any atrocity; just market it the right way, tell a story about how the torture was necessary to get intelligence, or how population bombing was necessary to avoid a costlier invasion of the Japanese main islands, and they'll be convinced that what we did was justified.

[JDPriestly]

137. All war is a moral atrocity. There is a particular horror in acts

perpetrated by a person in a position of authority over a person who is subservient.

That is why bombing is particularly horrible. The victims on the ground include completely innocent people. The victims have no means of defending themselves against the assault.

Torturing prisoners is a hideous crime. It is even worse than bombing. Think of it. The torture victim is completely helpless, completely under the control of the torturer. The torture victim has no meaningful way to protest much less defend himself. It's not so much how bad the torture hurts as the torture victim's knowledge that the person inflicting the torture is all powerful. That does enormous psychological harm.

In traditional war, trained soldiers fought other trained soldiers. The violence was still awful. But the match was fairer.

Torture is the method of cowards.

[tabasco]

125. Agree 100%.

Eisenhower himself directed that German citizens would walk through the death camps.

[NBachers]

127. Maybe Southern Methodist University will donate some property

for a permanent exhibit of all information, pictures, films, and documentation. From that vast public archive, a traveling exhibit could venture forth to communities across the nation.

Be sure to include graphic photos of the ongoing miscarriages, spontaneous abortions, and baby deformities caused by "depleted" uranium, malnutrition, and lack of medical care. Let the pseudo "religious" loons grok what they have wrought.

[patrice]

129. Yeah, next door to the Bush Liebrary.

[citizen snips]

136. The Abu Graibe photos was displayed in the media

Are we going to have to turn Guantanamo bay into a tourist attraction like Alcatraz? I don't understand the Nazi Germany analogy but whatever.

[tekisui]

163. *some* photos were shown.

There are more, there were worse things done in our name. Too many believe there was no torture, or it was 'a few bad apples'. We need to see the truth, the deniers and apologists need to see the truth. The analogy is simple, a complicit, lazy citizenry needs to be shaken.

[chill_wind]

139. And that's why there needs to be BOTH an Independant Prosecutor and

a public Congressional process. Senator Feinstein's discreet closed door Senate Intel inquiries, with no promise for certain of declassifying and publicly releasing the report when all is done, is not in this interest.

[Two Americas]

141. "dispose" of them

I listened to an hour long discussion today on NPR about how we are going to "dispose" - no one on the panel objected to that word being used - with the detainees. We can't try them, they said, because there is no evidence against them. European countries won't take them, they said. But they might be bad people so we can't free them.

Horrific.


...

[Hannah Bell]

150. what? i thought they were either going to try them or release them?

[Two Americas]

166. pundits

Not according to the illustrious panel of pundits assembled by NPR. There are too many problems with each of those two options, so we need to find "another way."

My opinion? It would be more humane to euthanize them then to continue the course we are on.

Seeing the very existence of "certain people" as being the problem is not something that can be fancied up or explained away with "creative" or "progressive" or "better than Bush" ideas.


...

[Hannah Bell]

168. so is that the administration position, or just the pundits' position?

[Two Americas]

169. hate to get into that

As soon as we mention the administration, it becomes impossible to discuss any issue.

I think the politicians reflect the national political discussion, in any case, and not the other way around. There are those here who think that our discussion should be constrained to be merely a reflection of the politicians - for or against - and that everything should be seen and judged in that context. That short-circuits and sabotages representative democracy. The politicians are supposed to listen and respond to us, to represent us, we are not supposed to listen to and respond to the politicians, nor act as public relations agents for their careers and promote their celebrity status.

The administration will do what they are forced to do by public pressure, as is always the case with politicians. That is the job description, not a damning of any politician.


...

[omega minimo]

146. OTOH we need a civics conscious and informed public that will remove criminals from office

[Djinn]

148. unfortunately it goes further

while you'd be hard pushed to find ANYONE on DU who doesn't agree that torture was widespread and officially sanctioned by the US government under BUSH (except the torture fan on this thread since departed), there's very very few who acknowledge the same has happened under countless D admins as well.

THAT IT IS STILL HAPPENING

Few people outraged about what we now know have the slightest clue about Operation Phoenix or the revolting CV's of SOA grads.

Do people really believe that prisoners in Iraq are now afforded legal protection because Obama was elected?

Do people really believe that prisoners are STILL BEING sent into the waiting hands of the Egyptian Mukhabarat or Uzbek NSS because the US just doesn't have room for them?

Rendition exists for the SOLE purpose of torturing people and instilling abject fear in others. Obama supports it. Simpering that "as long as we have guarantees they'll be humanely treated" is utter nonsense and spin (not to mention abominably offensive). The Secret Police of assorted dictatorships are not known for their adherence to humane principles, THAT is the very reason their regimes are chosen. Why not 'render' people to Sweden or New Zealand?

Until the acknowledgment that this is STILL happening sinks in we can never move forward.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE51P5B320090226

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

http://www.soaw.org/

[kcass1954]

151. I went to Dachau 3 years ago - there were lots of schoolchildren

there on field trips.

[Tx4obama]

152. Time to put an end to this...

U.S. MILITARY DEATHS (IRAQ): 4,281
U.S. MILITARY WOUNDED (IRAQ): 31,215
IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS: 151,000
'EXCESS' IRAQI DEATHS: 655,000

[DFW]

170. Here in my little suburb of Düsseldorf

The people of the town knew exactly where the local Nazis had buried some of their victims.
They told the first occupying forces (in this case American), and the (now ex-)Nazis were
forced to go out to where they had buried their victims, dig them up, and carry them on
foot back into town and dig them proper graves. Every one of the town's people know this
story to this day.

As a side note, the local Gestapo HQ building during the Nazi era was turned into an
elementary school after the war. Both of my children went there. It is called the Anne
Frank elementary school, and all kids learn about her, her life, and how and why she
lost it. The occupying American forces did a lot of good here while they ran the place
before they turned the area over to the BAOR.

One could only wish we we did the same with our own bad apples.

[Captain Hilts]

172. Neat story, DFW. nt