Catholic schools teach 12 year olds about abortion.

[OHDEM]

I call myself a recovering Catholic, but my husband is still a believer although he disagrees with the politics that the Church has embraced. Growing up, he attending Catholic and public schools and feels VERY STRONGLY that our kids should go to Catholic school. I didn't think I had a problem with that because I'm not quiet about my point of view and figured I could at least counter the dogma with some common sense. Anyway, my oldest is in preschool now and the more I learn, the less I like. The newletter from the school mentioned Life Works and Life Rally a couple times which, of course, set of alarm bells as I'm pro-choice and feel that reproductive rights are a health issue and fundamentally PRIVATE.

The last newsletter contained this "Choose Life Program The 6th, 7th & 8th greader have been participating in the Chooose Life Program through Life Works Ohio this week. This is a course of study for students teaching a consistent ethic life and the dangers of forms of violence against the human person." Uh...okay. So I checked out the Life Works Ohio website: http://lifeworksohio.com/choose_life.asp

I find this course offensive and feel that 6th graders and probably 7th and 8th graders, are too young to understand this complicated issue and I'm very unhappy that my son's school allows this group to, imo, scare young kids. I've talked to my husband about this, but he doesn't think it will be an issue and says I can pull the kids out of this type of program. Maybe, but that's not the point. I'm very disturbed that our tuition money would be spent on a political group like this and that I would probably be forced to try to explain some of this to a 12 year old because of his school. Do they even teach sex ed that young?!?

I know that there are a lot of bad feelings about the Catholic Church here because of their stance not only on abortion, but contraception and of course, gay marriage. I not only respect your opinions, I tend to agree with them! What do I do? This is a really good school, but I don't want my sons indoctrinated!

[LeftyMom]

1. I would hope they teach sex ed that young. Lots of girls that age have got their period.

Of course the propagandizing the kiddos and using them as foot soldiers for the anti-woman movement is wrong, but I sure hope the kids get sex ed by that age, even if it's whatever half-assed version Catholic schools offer (public in Ohio may not be much better on that anyhow.)

[OHDEM]

6. Propaganda is EXACTLY what's on that website.

They take something complicated and dumb it down to "baby killing".

[pnwmom]

2. Public schools begin sex education by that age or earlier -- I don't know

about abortion specifically.

This is a Catholic school. You say that you have the option of keeping your child out of the class -- then do so, if it's important to you. (But check with the school first to make sure your husband is right about this.)

Of course Catholic beliefs are going to be taught in a Catholic school. Send your child somewhere else if you're too uncomfortable with this. Don't expect the school to change.

[OHDEM]

7. I don't recall sex ed prior to 9th grade,

but it's possible we covered it in health class. My mom is devout Catholic, but was pretty open teaching me at least the biology of female reproduction early because of her own bad experiences.

I will have to see if this course is something they need permission for or that I can pull them out of. Then, of course, I'll be branded the liberal baby killer. (As if my Obama/Biden bumper sticker isn't enough!)

[pnwmom]

20. Back in the late 60's, sex ed began in my public school in 6th grade.

My children began in 5th grade in the district out here.

My husband recalls having half a dozen pregnant girls in his 8th grade class. That's why 9th grade would be awfully late!

Some Catholic schools are more liberal than others. If yours isn't one of the liberal ones then I don't think you should send your kids there. You'd always be unhappy.

[Dorian Gray]

39. Agree

We started sex ed in 5th grade, and that was back in 1981. (We learned about menstruation and pregnancy.) 6th, 7th and 8th grade had formal sexual education sections in our Health Classes.

I also agree that your child is at a Catholic School, and if you have a problem with the curriculum, you should probably keep your child from that particular class (if allowed) or removed from the school (if not allowed).

[sandnsea]

3. Sex Ed starts in 5th or 6th grade

I'm not always wild about the way they teach sex ed, but it does start that young and definitely should.

Abortion? I think it's okay in 8th grade, but that's about as young as I would engage the topic. My son's 8th grade social studies teacher, in public school, equated abortion to the Roman practice of infanticide. Lovely. It taught my son how stupid Christians are, with absolutely NO prompting from me.

Good Luck.

[OHDEM]

9. Great - his teacher is a right-winger spouting talking points.

I'm sorry to hear that, but I guess you never know what you're going to get. Unless you send them to Catholic school in which case you're SURE to get that crap!

Thanks for the well wishes and good luck to you, too. Who knew this is what raising kids was like? LOL

[pnwmom]

26. I think 8th grade is too late to start, even with abortion.

My husband had half a dozen pregnant girls in his 8th grade class. Physically, girls can get pregnant quite a bit younger than that. They need the education before it's too late.

[sandnsea]

29. "it does start that young and definitely should" n/t

[pnwmom]

31. But you also said that 8th grade is as young as you would teach about abortion.

I think they need to have the abortion information earlier (along with contraception info).

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. Oh, man .................

They're free to teach what they want, under the guise of "education," but I just looked at the site, and it's hard-core.

It never ends, does it?

The part that chilled me was the phrase ". . . explaining the dangers of abortion . . . " You know that means they're going to try to pass off bullshit horror stories as absolute scientific fact.

You're gonna have to make a regular practice of sitting down with your kids as they go through this six-week wonder and carefully refute all the crap they're gonna have thrown at them. Point-by-point, starting with the irrefutable fact that abortion is a whole lot less risky than carrying a pregnancy to term.

Even if you were to keep your kids out of that class - a wise decision, I think - they'd still hear stuff from the other kids, and you're going to have to make sure they're armed with the facts, and warn them that they might get in trouble.

But, you do have your work cut out for you. I applaud your vigilance and concern. You're a great Mom and your kids are very, very lucky.

Good luck..................

:toast:

[OHDEM]

10. I almost posted that "dangers" quote, too.

It really struck me because I, like you, know that pregnancy itself can be dangerous. Not to mention that freedom over one's own body is so basic and fundamental.

I can see the phone calls I'll be getting in the future when my kids argue everything from Bush's presidency to abortion to homosexuals. My husband always says there is no way they can be brainwashed with me as their Mother.

Thank you for the compliments. Like most Moms, I'm just doing the best I know how for my kids. :fistbump:

[rosesaylavee]

5. My thought was if you take them out of that particular program

the other kids as well as teachers will make some assumptions on your kids and you. You or your child will be 'other'.

I was raised Catholic and abortion/contraception was considered wrong, my family never condemned anyone for doing either. It was considered a private choice albeit not a good one. A choice to be avoided if you were smart.

I think you and your husband could weigh the pros and cons of attending that school again. This kind of brainwashing is probably not isolated to just this one issue.

[OHDEM]

12. I think a lot of Catholics have the live and let live attitude...

even if the Church officially does not. But how do I support an organization with whom I so disagree. And if he's in school they expect church attendance.

Maybe seeing the website will make him see how very conservative this church really is. Even my mom didn't fully believe me at first when I told her this was being taught! :boring: :banghead:

[rosesaylavee]

40. I wish you well with this decision.

I attended Catholic schools all the way thru college and I am now a Unitarian Universalist. :P So, the abortion classes may or may not have the institution's desired effect. My formal education finished a few decades ago tho when the country was still considering the Equal Rights Amendment and was less intense about everyone being in lockstep with the Pope or any religion for that matter.

I raised my son as a UU and sent him thru the public school here precisely for the reasons you are citing. He has turned out to have a good moral compass and is a contributing and caring member of his community and keeps up with current events so he can be informed. So far, so good.

[OHDEM]

41. Would love to switch churches, but not in the cards.

I don't see my husband going for that although I guess I could switch myself. I attended a war vigil on the 5th anniversary in Iraq at an UU Church and thought it was lovely. Very spiritual in a way I've nver seen before.

Thanks for your personal story and advice. :)

[elleng]

8. My daughters attended Catholic school from 4-12th grade,

and whenever there was a potentially controversial matter being discussed, or TO BE discussed, parents were asked whether we approved or disapproved our child's participation. We had no problem with it, and always discussed the matters fully with the girls.

If its a really good school, they won't 'indoctrinate,' but rather expose students to options. Thats what we did, and you can too. As I say, no one is 'pro-abortion,' but rather, we recognize the woman's right to make such a choice.

Good luck.

[OHDEM]

13. Thank you. That is helpful. nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. That phrase drives me insane -

No one is "pro-abortion," but we are "pro-choice." We're also "pro-life," but the leaders in the Choice Movement let the fundies take that phrase away from them, which still pisses me off.

And how about that argument that women use abortion as birth control? Another one that sends me around the corner. I have known one woman who, essentially, did that - she had five - FIVE! - fucking abortions.

Today, she's so far rightwing, she views the world while looking out of her own ass. We're no longer friends, but last time we discussed it, she was ranting about Roe v. Wade, and how it had to be overturned because it made abortion too easy for women to get.

I said to her, "That's sort of the point," and she hung up on me.

This is a woman who got a philosophy degree from Berkeley........................

[OHDEM]

19. Agreed.

While volunteering for Obama, I ran into a few members of "Feminists for Life". (I thought it was a joke the first time I heard that name.) I didn't really want to debate with them and one of them said, "Abortion isn't the only issue." True, but if you don't even believe that women should have control of their own bodies and reproduction, what kind of feminist are you?

I know growing up that I was both careful AND lucky so I had my kids when I wanted, with who I wanted and in the best situation possible. I want that for my sons, too, so I want them to understand the importance of birth control. And I want them to understand that abortion HAS to be an option.

Sadly, your friend sounds like she feels guilty for her past and this is her way of "saving" someone else.

Also, IMO you can't call yourself pro-life if your pro-war, pro-torture or anti-universal healthcare.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

23. Or .................

pro-death penalty.

Yeah, as soon as my friend's deeply troubled (and chronically suicidal) daughter got knocked up at the age of twenty, guess who went with her to the clinic? Right. Her mother, naturally.

Hypocrisy annoys me.................

[OHDEM]

25. I hear that!

We just had a similar situation.

Hubby's cousins are right-wing. Lovely people despite their politics, but loved Bush and she reads Coulter so you can imagine. :puke:

Anyway, their daughter is in her first year of college and she's raped in the dorms by a friend of a friend. Horrible, I know and she's a sweet kid. I can tell you that her rabidly pro-life mom told me she was so happy that they had the morning after pill available when she went to the hospital for the rape kit!

Of course, I said nothing, because they are in pain and it wouldn't be right. But...I was thinking that if it weren't for the pro-choice movement, her daughter might have been FORCED to have a rapist's baby. It is our belief that her daughter should have the CHOICE about her own body and life that allowed her to easily terminate a possible pregnancy with no surgery, no pain, no blood. What peace of mind! All because we deal with REALITY.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

33. I wonder .............

if her views - the mom's - will now be different, and, if so, will she tell you?

People are curious beings. Love the theoretical, but when it happens in your house, all bets are off and beliefs are jokes ............

[msongs]

11. when do they teach about the Inquisition? nt

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Probably in seventh or eighth grade -

only it'll be known as "The Bush Years - 2001-2008."

[OHDEM]

15. Ignoring reality is standard practice.

How else do you pretend abortion is our biggest problem while at the same time teaching that you can't use birth control? Oh right...abstinance. That'll happen! :rofl:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. Ask Bristol Palin -

The kid said abstinence wasn't realistic, during her interview with Greta van Sustern, and then her goddamned mother busted in and ran roughshod over everything Bristol had said.

What a happy family they are!!!!!

Ugh ........................

[patrice]

18. I was raised conservative Catholic and am quite capable of thinking on my own.

Though I no longer go to Catholic church, I feel I have kept what is good in their intellectual culture and walked away from what is bad. I think my autonomy came from the fact that my parents expressed admiration for intellectual skills and my Father, in particular, engaged us in discussion of Social Justice as early as possible and on an ongoing basis. (Dad was inspired by a populist priest who preached energetically in a parish in Coffeyville, KS, and he later helped to start a Biolermakers' Union here in eastern Kansas).

I also recommend debate for young people's minds. I debated for 2 years in Catholic highschool, which gave me the habit of analyzing things from more than one perspective and being honest about the pros and cons of any point of view. There was some luck too in the fact that I was a child of the '60s so, as a teenager, I was introduced to other intellectual traditions through the pop-culture of the times. College deepened that introduction and added Psychology, something else I recommend as early as possible. The whole time I was in college, I kept noticing how much better academically prepared I was than many others.

Though I can tell you about certain socio-psychological scars I carry from Catholic schools, I regard those as partly due to familial issues and I attribute that better academic preparation for college to my Catholic primary and secondary education. I also taught highschool for 8 years, so I recommend that you monitor your son's education carefully for how much co-operative/collaborative "learning" is going on. IMO, too much co-operative learning produces students with gaps and holes in their understanding and who are too dependent upon the skills of others to think for themselves.

[krabigirl]

21. Yup. My parents forced me to watch some video about it in CCD when I was 13.

I wanted to stay home sick that day. I just closed my eyes. I knew it was propaganda.

[OHDEM]

24. I read an article online that talks about the sex ed class...

in a Catholic school and they showed an actual abortion being performed! Ewwwww! I couldn't even stand to watch the scope video of my brother's shoulder surgery.

Catholic Sex Ed - The original version of shock and awe!

[Maru Kitteh]

22. Stand firm. Don't give them your money and DON'T let them pollute your kids.

If you pull the kids out of those programs they will suffer the repercussions of the teachers and the other students whose parents are just as bat-shit crazy as the hate groups that want to indoctrinate your kids.

Stand firm. You only get to do this once.

[OHDEM]

28. That's where I'm at right now, but...

their dad is not convinced. I'm hoping the website disgusts him like it did me and we can rethink the school issue. He's only starting kindergarten next year so it's the perfect time to change schools. Better now than 6th grade or whatever when I can't take it anymore.

Plus, he's the Dad and works constantly so he doesn't do the school activities and interact with other Moms like I have to. Who wants to be "that one"? LOL

[Maru Kitteh]

35. So find a compromise. You will NOT have your kids raised up to their necks in dogma, he

really wants to make sure his kids have some of the structure he feels served him well. How about getting involved as a family with some of the meaningful and wonderful but less controversial goals/missions of the church like homeless shelters, child centers, etc.?

If dad feels strongly about this he should be willing to do the work too, not just pay and/or relegate it to others. It won't mean anything to the kids anyway, if he's not involved.

So why not find a comfortable medium for everyone? It could still be good.

I hope all goes well. I'll be thinking about you.

[and-justice-for-all]

27. They are to young to grasp the issue....

and it is over the line. The church makes the choice of getting a abortion out be like deciding between what shoes to wear, complete horse shit. It is a heavy decision to make and there are several circumstances involved that no one, other then the women making the decision, can understand. I have no way of relating to it, I am not there or involved in the situation and neither is the church.

It is a scare tactic, the church loves to get hold of peoples kids and fill their heads with bullshit. The young minds are very impressionable and the church feds of them.

The prolifers like to intervene where they are not welcomed. The ever prying church sticking its nose where it is not wanted.

[OHDEM]

32. I wish things were so simple!

They don't really want to talk about rape victims, incest victims, mentally ill women, deformed babies, etc. But they WILL bring up late term abortions which basically never happen.

Let's talk about what happens if they get their way. Women having to go to court if their health or life is threatened? Forced pregnancy?

I think McCain probably lost a whole bunch of women when he said "womens' health" sarcastically and with air quotes during one of the debates. Yeah, our HEALTH, you self-righteous arse!

[and-justice-for-all]

36. The whole thing comes down to the power women have..

and men can never have. Women, have to power to decide who lives and who doesn't and self righteous power mad men can not deal with that fact. It drives them mad, specially the fundi control freak nuts..

They call them selves "Pro-Life", by they are also Pro-War, Pro-Torture and Pro-Bigots...Pro-Life my ass.

[lostnfound]

30. When I was in 6th and 7th grade Catholic school in the mid-70s

The religion classes focused for most of the semester on 'Respect-Life' topics: they spent probably ten weeks total, evenly divided among each of five topics: abortion, death penalty, euthanasia, war, and poverty. The focus wasn't on the politics of it -- i.e., pointing out which politicians voted which way, or saying that Democrats were going to hell -- but it was on the idea of a 'consistent life ethic'. The abortion section would have been accurately described as 'anti-abortion', not 'anti-choice', because most of the emphasis was on why they believed that abortions were wrong, and not a lot of emphasis on pushing to overturn Roe V Wade.

The other issues were treated with equal depth and intensity, and they made it clear that Catholic teaching is equally against the death penalty and euthanasia, that poverty is a terrible evil for which we have a responsibility to oppose, and the war discussion was focused on the idea that only in specific extreme conditions can a war be considered a 'just war', such as stopping the Nazis, and they talked about Catholic groups who actively opposed all wars and nuclear weapons buildup etc. All of this did influence my thinking for years -- mostly radicalizing or liberalizing it, but in the case of abortion, leaving me rather conflicted for years.

My strongly pro-choice friend has her son in a Catholic school who is about that age, and she did have a long talk with him about her views when the topic was discussed at his school. My own son is in Catholic school but is still a little too young for this to be an issue; when he is older, I am not too worried about it because I trust in his ability to make up his own mind, eventually, and I tend to teach him nuanced ways of thinking about most issues. I at least want him to THINK about issues, to concern himself about what is right and wrong, or to know that he has a responsibility to listen to his conscience. The nice thing about his school is that it has a strong social justice program, and there is depth academically that he wasn't getting at the local public school.

Frankly, with Obama's moderating positions on this issue, he may put some energy into the forces of the 'safe legal and rare' camp, to where the issue may not be quite as polarized (or as useful as a sales tool for right wing churches and right wing republicans) in the future. Who knows?

I'm not discounting or arguing against your concerns; just sharing my experience and thoughts.

[anigbrowl]

34. I wouldn't sweat it too much

If the academic standards are good, your kids won' have any great difficulty thinking for themselves. You can't indoctrinate someone who knows how to ask questions. I speak from experience of Catholic schools...while I'm not especially committed to repeating it for my offspring, I'm not inherently opposed to them either. For context, I'm now a happy atheist Buddhist.

[PA Democrat]

37. My idiot neighbor's kids have been dragged to "pro-life" rallies

since they were babies. When my son at the age of SIX asked me what an abortion was, I guessed right away where he learned about it. It seems my neighbor's son (age SEVEN) offered to show him a video which depicted aborted fetuses.

What you say to your kids depends upon their age of course, but over the years I've had some good discussions with my son about what the Catholic church believes and what I personally believe and let him make up his own mind on the issue of choice. I think that his exposure to my neighbors' views on a lot of other issues (they are virulently anti-gay, don't believe in evolution and had no sympathy for the innocent civilians being killed in Bush's wars) had an influence on his rejection of the "pro-life" stance.

[Mother Of Four]

38. My girls are 12 and 14 -

My 12 is in the 6th grade- my 14 is in 8th, and they have already had "The talk" a while ago.

We live in a small town in NC, many of the people here are thumpers. I know that I didn't want my children, daughters especially, to be twisted by outside attitudes. It's a VERY simple thing to discuss abortion with your child, when you go over female biology. I entered into it by discussing health problems that women can experience, and talked about ectopic pregnancies etc. A good way that you can talk about it matter of factly, is if you have a friend of family member that became ill while pregnant. When you talk about how the woman becomes pregnant, and the placement of the placenta etc- you can also mention the times when the fetus doesn't develop correctly.

There are many ways you can enter into a discussion about abortion that will give your child much needed information.

My daughters both started Menses right around 5th grade.

When we talked about how to avoid bad situations, and violence- I used that opportunity as well to educate my daughters. We talked about how every individual experiences different things, some women are able to overcome the pain in their hearts and have a child beget by violence, some the pain is just too great and it's better for both mother AND unborn child not to be brought into the world that way.

I also educated them on the different schools of thought:

Some think that life begins at conception
Some think that until it begins to look like a baby, it isn't one.
Some think that until the baby is able to survive outside the womb, it isn't one.
Some think that until the baby can survive without heroic intervention, it isn't one.

A discussion about abortion doesn't have to be traumatic, I don't know your family or how your children are because in the end you are the one who knows how sensitive they will grow up to be and what they can digest at any certain age. Just please keep in mind, part of the way those people get into our kids heads and twist them up is by taking what is a simple biological issue, and making it monstrous.

I don't know what your personal standing is on abortion beyond being pro-choice. For instance, when I was pregnant with my last child I was told I needed to abort to save my life. I ended up going to two other doctors until I met a wonderful one that told me she supported my CHOICE to have my child even though it risked my health. Why did I choose to risk it? Because I myself can never see going through with an abortion, even after violence. But that is my CHOICE, when the girls and I talked about it I stressed that is what we fight for. CHOICE, choose to have or not to have. Power over our own bodies, with no one making that life altering decision for us.

I know it helped to express my personal standing on it, because it opened the floor to them for questions. My brilliant 14 year old, I'll never forget this, stated "Mama I can respect that but I look at a fetus as a form of parasite until it can breath and function on it's own." She went on to describe in detail why she felt that way, and shot me quite a few questions about my personal feelings.

My 12 year old doesn't know yet how she feels about it, but armed with matter of fact info that isn't horror stories like many anti-choicers would want them to believe, I'm positive she will grow into an opinion about it that fits HER.


Good luck to you :)

[OHDEM]

42. Thank you for sharing your personal story.

It took a lot of guts to risk your health for your child and I'm sure it was scary. Like you, I believe that "choice" is about deciding what YOU believe and doing what you feel is right in often difficult situations. I don't know if I could ever have an abortion especially after feeling and seeing my 2 boys inside me. They were magical!

However, I know that I've been lucky in that both of my kids were healthy (as far as they could tell) as was I. Plus, I am happily married and we chose when we wanted our children. If I were raped or the baby not well, I can't say for certain what I would do since I've never experienced that and I don't know how I would feel. If my health were at risk....I'm also not sure what I would do.

Surprisingly, my Catholic husband has told me that he wouldn't want me to have a sick baby and would prefer I have an abortion in that situation - although he understands I would have to make that decision.

Oddly enough, although having me own kids reinforced for me that I personally most likely would not have an abortion, it also strengthened my belief that the gov't should stay out of it! Both my preganancies were hard. I was sick and for the 2nd I was borderline gestational diabetic so I had to be on a special diet and poke myself several times a day. I was very depressed and exhausted. Thankfully, when my beautiful, healthy baby boy arrived, I was overjoyed and that really helped. I can't imagine how hard it is to be pregnant when you're only lukewarm on it....or without support....or extremely poor....or carrying a rapist's baby. It's like a nightmare to think of FORCING someone to go thru that.

Thanks again for the advice! This is definately NOT a topic I would bring up anywhere but here.