For those of you who support the death penalty, whether driven by fear or hate, listen to the words

[ConsAreLiars]

of Steve Earle's song, "Over Yonder (Jonathan's Song)" and watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_yR18LIyR0 .

Consider the list of governments which share and act on your values. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty

are known to have been carried out in the following countries in 2007:<30>

Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Belarus, Botswana, China, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Japan, Kuwait, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, USA, Vietnam, Yemen.

The other 170 or so are more intelligent, humane and civilized than those, and than you. Are you proud to be one of them? Like it or not, those are your ideological brethren and moral equals.


Here are the lyrics to "Over Yonder":

The warden said he'd mail my letter
The chaplain's waitin' by the door
Tonight we'll cross the yard together
Then they can't hurt me anymore.

I am going over yonder
Where no ghost can follow me
There's another place beyond here
Where I'll be free I believe.

Give my radio to Johnson
Thibodeaux can have my fan
Send my Bible home to Mama
Call her every now and then.

I suppose I got it comin'
I can't ever pay enough
All my rippin' and a runnin'
I hurt everyone I loved.

The world'll turn around without me
The sun'll come up in the east
Shinin' down on all of them that hate me
I hope my goin' brings 'em peace.

[coyotespaw]

1. I consider myself a rather progressive fellow

but there are some people so evil and wrong that there is no rehabilitation for them, and no proper punishment for them other than removing them from society permanently. I believe that that measure should not be taken unless their culpability for that crime can be proven to an absolute degree of certainty; but if there is that degree of proof, then I have no problem with allowing the punishment to fit the crime.

Edited to add: I'm a huge Steve Earle fan, but I'd have to be a moron to let a singer whose music I enjoy direct my moral compass.

[ConsAreLiars]

2. You are in good company.

Saudi Arabia and all those. Life behind bars is not good enough for you. You want to murder "the other." How about impaling? Would that please you more? You base your position on hate. At least you acknowledge it.

Edit to add what should be obvious to anyone with half a brain: my opposition to the death penalty did not originate with listening to a Steve Earle song, although I would not call anyone who listened to some song or other and got half a clue or more "a moron." On the other hand, those who think state-initiated murders are "a good thing," well, that word might fit them.

[coyotespaw]

3. My position is not one of hate...

it is, however, one of reason. I believe a swift and painless death, for those who have no regard for life, is an equitable punishment. I believe that one suspected of a capital crime should have the most competent legal representation possible; and outside of their guilt being proven by a combination of a recording of the crime, eyewitness testimony, and DNA evidence, they should not be eligible for the death penalty. I would rather a hundred guilty men go free, rather than see one innocent man be executed. However, if a man should be proven guilty by such indisputable evidence as I've mentioned, then I have no problem with him being executed in as painless a manner as humanly possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. When we reach that point perhaps I will consider the death penalty

but we haven't

The Innocence Project proves this every year

[coyotespaw]

86. I agree entirely

There are far too many people wrongly executed; and, as a proud patriotic citizen, I would rather see a hundred guilty men set free than to see one man wrongly convicted. I just refuse to look at a punishment that, if properly applied, fits the crime as barbaric. Just because someone agrees with the concept of a death penalty doesn't mean that he/she agrees with the way that it is currently carried out.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

76. Wrong place, self delete.

[RedCappedBandit]

25. It's impossible to have that degree of certainty

for any single instance, let alone every one.

[JHB]

51. So? Then execution isn't an option.

I'm another person who isn't (in an absolute sense) against the DP, but I think it requires a higher standard of proof than "beyond reasonable doubt" (which effectively puts me on the anti-DP side, since due process and standards of evidence are mere "technicalities" to the bulk of the pro-DP side).

If it's damn rare to have a case where that "higher standard" is met, then the DP will be damn rare.

[patriotvoice]

31. "That [all men] are endowed with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life..."

When one justifies one murder, it becomes easier to justify the next.

I stipulate that there is severe evil and horrible wrong in the world, but where exactly is the line of "so evil" and "so wrong"? Do you and I agree on it? What if my standard is lower than yours... and I'm the one signing the order to proceed? I also stipulate that there can be certainty in legal proceedings, but what precisely is the judicial standard for "absolute" certainty?

[Bluerthanblue]

35. well said. n/t

[Echo In Light]

36. Apply that standard to a populace that sits by idly while their elected govt commits aggression

...and all the sorted atrocities that go along with it. To me, that's FAR worse than one individual who kills another, yet the perceptions are so intentionally skewed.

For what it's worth, I've never supported capital punishment, although most definitely empathize with the personal, emotional impetus of those who've lost someone they love and seek vengeance/retribution.

[Bluerthanblue]

48. there aren't any scales of "wrong"-

or there shouldn't be.

'Triage'ing injustice is what often keeps us from doing anything about anything. I'm not defending the emotional video- or the statements about the 'civilized' nature or lack of of those who disagree. I think it's a good thing to discuss the Death Penalty, and to listen to the rationalizations people give for allowing it to continue to be sanctioned.

:hi:

[coyotespaw]

87. At the same time,

we are speaking of those who have violated the unalienable right to life of another. There is no current definition of "absolute" certainty, but the combination of circumstances that I previously mentioned most likely eliminate any doubt as to the guilt of the individual involved.

[patriotvoice]

98. The slope freezes over.

You have changed from "absolute certainty" to "most likely no doubt". There is an infinite gap between those two positions. And, ultimately, that leads some to let the evidentiary scale be a function of who committed what crime. That is, there's a higher standard for white people or rich people or crimes of passion.

Yes, they have taken the right of another. That's heinous, reprehensible, and disgusting. But for the state to come in, decrying that act as evil, only to do the same -- in your name, my name, all our names -- is hypocritical and tyrannical. Justice is penance and rehabilitation: execution serves neither of those ends. And death doesn't teach anyone a lesson, certainly not the one who is executed.

[MajorChode]

78. Removing them from society permanently doesn't mean you have to kill them

The death penalty serves nobody's interests other than those who seek revenge.

[Orsino]

89. Bingo.

It does, however, relieve us of the hard work of sharing the planet with violent offenders.

That's why it should be suspect. Despite all the legal hurdles that (rightly) stand in the way, execution is still the easy way out.

[polmaven]

93. Exactly....

Murder is WRONG! The death penalty is no more than state sponsored murder.

NOT IN MY NAME!

[bluestateguy]

4. I had a big celebration the morning Timothy McVeigh was executed

And I will not apologize for that.

I'll be dammed if a poem makes me change my mind.

[ConsAreLiars]

5. Another vote for the death penalty based on hatred.

A few more like this and soon we will have a Talibornigan posse assembled. How about stoning to death? Would that get you off more quickly? Do you admire North Korea or China more than France or Sweden when it comes to the death penalty. No need to choose, your answer is obviously "yes" to both.

[bluestateguy]

6. Absolutely! I hate Timothy McVeigh.

I'd have been just fine with stoning him to death, in the public square perhaps.

[noamnety]

8. When you start thinking that way

It's no longer about McVeigh; it becomes about the audience.

[Echo In Light]

39. ..and the volatile emotions fueling it that can obscure crucial data in determining guilt

[noamnety]

52. A lot of people don't realize

that the death penalty actually makes it MORE likely that a dangerous serial criminal will remain on the streets.

In places where the death penalty is still legal, juries are less likely to convict a person because they (understandably) are reluctant to play a part in their death. Beyond a shadow of a doubt starts to turn into "what if? what if evidence was tampered with, what if DNA evidence was falsified, what if the witness later recants?" And so they either don't convict or convict the person of a lesser charge.

[prolesunited]

56. Why did you celebrate?

How did his death resolve anything?

In fact, he WANTED the state to kill him. If you really wanted him to suffer, letting him rot in prison would have been a better option. He died believing he was a martyr for his cause and the state was a pawn in his plan.

[EFerrari]

62. Wow. That's creepy.

[polmaven]

94. It's more than creepy.

It is downright disturbing.

[hobbit709]

7. Tell me that someone who scores 22 on the "Most Evil" scale

needs to be among the living and risk them ever getting out to do it again.

[TexasObserver]

16. The evilness of the perp is irrelevant to death penalty.

It is a given that there are terrible people who do terrible things. That's why imprisonment with no parole is a sane option. Your rationale is a silly one, for it posits that the only rational response is to kill such persons.

[democrank]

9. Against the death penalty for nearly 50 years

but some criminals need to be locked up forever.

[Danger Mouse]

10. In some cases I find the death penalty justifiable...

but overall, life in prison is far more effective...they suffer much longer for their crimes.
Are you against life in prison for the most repulsive killers?

[Shell Beau]

65. I agree with you. Mostly I am against the death penalty, but there are

those rare occasions where I am ok with it.

[aikoaiko]

96. I'm curious why you think life in prison is far more effective.

when so most who are convicted of capital murder then argue and plea for life in prison in the sentencing stage?

[Danger Mouse]

100. Because people are scared of death.

But I think when they're at a ripe old age and still in prison with no hope of getting out...
I don't know, do people like that wish they had been put to death instead?

[quickesst]

11. Just......dumb...

"The other 170 or so are more intelligent, humane and civilized than those, and than you. Are you proud to be one of them? Like it or not, those are your ideological brethren and moral equals."

That's not the dumbest, and most insulting statement I've read here, but it makes the top twenty easily. The op believes many DU members are no better than scum. Way to present your argument. Many will see the error of their ways with such wise words of wisdom.:sarcasm: The predators who kidnap, rape, and kill small children appreciate your support. Thanks.
quickesst

[TexasObserver]

17. You should be proud of your third world beliefs.

Like many on the right who say exactly the same things you do in support of their death penalty beliefs, your comments are illogical and irrational. You think from one standpoint only: revenge. You care not about the fact that we know hundreds have been executed who are innocent, because you have the certainty only fools have.

[RedCappedBandit]

27. Death penalty advocates are just as responsible

for the murder of innocent people as the people they intend to punish.

[EFerrari]

61. The truth can be very unpleasant.

[spoony]

88. "predators who kidnap, rape, and kill small children appreciate your support"

You know, I almost saw your point, about not changing minds with harsh condemning language, until you wrote that. That's far worse than anything the OP implied about you or anyone else, because you're saying that being against the DP is "supporting" child molesters/killers. That's an ugly, fucked up thing to say.

[pipoman]

12. Nuff said

A young girl who told police her father forced her to help as he cut up her mother's body with an electric saw said she could only look away when the head fell to the floor.

-snip-

Keyuna, now 13, told police she saw Hawkins stab her mother in the neck with a knife and then strangle her after she threatened to call police during an argument.

The girl told police her father forced her to help as he cut up the body a day after the killing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5547320

[Bluerthanblue]

21. not 'nuff'- man has been doing it your way

since time immemorial - have we stopped murder? rape? abuse?

What Hawkins did, in you link is absolutely horrible. Your answer is for us to respond to that with more killing?

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it. You may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. You may murder the hater, but you do not murder hate, nor establish love. Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." MLK jr.

wise words from one who understood the cost of this difficult TRUTH.

Isn't it time for us to admit that we are blind enough already?

[pipoman]

53. We are all products of our experiences

I am a civil libertarian. I spent 15 years as a criminal defense investigator. I have worked many defense cases pro bono. I have worked for the defense of people who were so hated that I received death threats for assisting in their defense. I was undeterred. I believe in every human's right to a fair trial and the best possible defense. I never worked a case which I didn't diligently and sometimes ruthlessly pursue exculpatory evidence no matter where my investigation led. There are innocent people who escaped conviction because of my work, there are people I believe are likely guilty who escaped conviction because of my work. I watched as people were released from custody who I knew would be a danger to society. I have had nightmares from the images of victim's forensic files. I have become physically sick from the inhumanity of monsters whose crimes I studied in detail, then looked into the eyes of the accused to find no remorse. I am comfortable with the direction of my moral compass on this issue.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. How many innocent people are you willing to kill to punish that man?

Or rather - to phrase the point less melodramatically - do you consider that increasing the punishment of that man (assuming he really is guilty as charged), and others like him, from life in prison to the many years it takes for a death sentence to run its course in prison and then execution, is a price worth paying for occasionally executing people who don't deserve it?

I am not convinced either way as to whether or not there are people evil enough that killing them would be justified if we could identify them with 100% accuracy. But I *am* totally certain that, even if there are, the state still shouldn't kill them, it should just lock them up for life, because inevitably, if it adopts any policy other than "never kill anyone", it will sometimes kill the wrong people, and that's not a price worth paying.

[pipoman]

63. An extension of my previous response #53

I don't doubt the passion of those who believe there is never a case worthy of the ultimate penalty. Most, I believe are very good people who can't fathom the inhumanity which others, some offenders, possess. I believe some read detailed stories of crimes committed and have real difficulty fully appreciating that anyone could possibly do the deeds they are accused and convicted of doing. The horror of these animal's victims reality are so surreal that without actually seeing the act in person, it is just simply unbelievable.

A case I am all too familiar with. Read this description from beginning to end, it is long. It took me months to fully realize the unbelievable horror...The unwieldiness of the admission...The complete lack of compassion for the pain inflicted...The continuation of infliction pain even beyond the unspeakable acts of the night...The dead souls of the offenders eyes are burnt into my own soul for the rest of my life...I contend I am the compassionate one.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/carr_brothers/index.html

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. But I think you're still answering the wrong question.

"Are there people who have committed crmies so horrible that killing them is a just response" is one question.

"Should the state adopt a policy of killing people *it judges* to be in the above category" is a different one.

You've made your answer to the first question very clear, and I'm not challenging it (although I'm not necessarily assenting either).

But the answer to the second question is only yes if you believe not merely that such monsters exist, but that the state can pursue a policy of killing them with a very, very high degree of accuracy. And I don't have that degree of faith in any human justice system.

Otherwise, surely it's better to let even the evillest of people "get away with" a very sever punishment (life in prison) rather than a very very severe punishment (execution), rather than to execute some of them and some innocent people too?

Or do you really regard taking some innocent lives as a price worth paying for adding that extra bit to the punishment of the guilty, or have so much faith in the courts that you think that won't happen?

[pipoman]

103. I do believe, at least in my state,

that those on death row are in fact guilty as charged now days. Granted there have been times in the past without the checks which are now imposed. The reason for the mandatory appeals processes are to insure the person is guilty. In most cases there are admissions, absolute eyewitnesses, and I frankly can't think of a single person on death row in my state who denies the crime they are convicted of committing. So, at least in my state, I feel the argument that we will put an innocent to death is really a red herring (again this hasn't always been the case). So now the question is should there be state sanctioned death penalty, use of tax payer funds to employ execution. This is a question that will never be answered. Some will always feel, morally, it is wrong and others will not have that issue. I believe we have to agree to disagree. Understand I am not a death penalty advocate to the point of demonstration nor am I willing to go out of my way to encourage it...I simply feel it is not morally wrong in the most egregious cases.

A large part of my motivation to do what I did professionally was to help people without access to funds receive a fair trial and a good defense. I do not trust law enforcement to reveal exculpatory evidence, in fact have seen it covered up more times than I can count...far more times than it was revealed. The nightmare of conviction of innocent people has and will happen. I just don't see it making it through the 10+ year appeals process in a death penalty case.

On a personal note. If I were independently wealthy, I would likely still be doing that kind of work. I would be able to pick and choose my clients and not be forced to assist in the defense of the guilty. Instead I will cook for the infirm and the innocent as my contribution to humanity...Pay cut? Yes. Sleep well? Absolutely.

[Bluerthanblue]

97. our fundamental difference-

where you and I part company (and maybe cannot unite) is repeated here in your reply-

"animal's victims"- I don't doubt that your experiences have led you to view a fellow human being as something other than the exact same substance as YOU- (completely human, no more 'monster' or 'animal' than you or I). My own have shown me just the opposite.

I offer this to you in hopes that you might just think on it awhile. It's VERY easy to have compassion for a victim. Those of us who are sensitive/empathetic don't have to work hard at connecting with the responses their situations evoke in us.
But when we're faced with narcissistic people- people who seem emotionally dead- bankrupt of any attachment or connection to their fellow man- who are capable of committing acts that cannot be comprehended- or who have actually committed these kind of acts, confound us. We cannot 'go-there'. We CANNOT connect, and so, in a strange kind of twist, we reject their common humanity- we, in a sense, become them, in a bizarre way. If anyone deserves our pity, mercy, forgiveness, it is them. Can you imagine what it must BE LIKE to be them? Think about that- to be the object/person deserving of all the disgust, revulsion and hatred known to 'man'.

I don't have your credentials or professional experience, nor do i discount your perspective and why you believe as you do about this issue. I won't go into details but i haven't come to where i stand on this issue easily either, through 'trials' of my own, of a different nature .
Doing what is "right" isn't always easy,(more often than not it is anything but), that doesn't change the fact that it is still, no matter all the fancy words, or impressive arguments to the contrary, the "right" thing to do.

And knowingly,- willfully- choosing to end the life of another human being is not "right".

:hi:

[pipoman]

104. I am hardened

I once sat across from an animal who was describing his crimes against a child to me. He couldn't tell me without giggling. He was, in other circumstances a very intelligent and apparently sane person, but the thought of the..I honestly cant even finish this story...maybe you can get the idea.

Again, we may have to agree to disagree. Please see my post 103 just above.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

13. "Fear or hate" options bespeaks volumes about you!

It's naught but pragmatism for me.
The blood is on your hands.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. it is pre-meditated, murder- and justify it any way you like- it is

WRONG.

Hiding behind the annonymity of 'society' doesn't leave any one of us with clean hands.

We kill people who kill people. ???? why? because "some people are so evil.

Until WE end government sponsored pre-meditated murder, we are no less evil. We simply have the power to justify our barbaric response to barbaric actions.


This IS a 'black/white' issue in my opinion. If intentionally taking another persons life is WRONG when an individual does it- it's wrong when our society does it- wrong x each one of us who sanction it still = wrong.

Is Torture wrong? always? - We torture people why??? because we feel unsafe. We murder murderers why? because we feel unsafe. ???? :shrug:



If human'kind' survives, this will be one of those things which people will look back on and wonder "what in the world were they thinking????"-

[backtoblue]

30. Murder is wrong no matter who does it. nt

We have no right to decide who should live and who should die. That is up to the power(s) that be and the natural order of things. If we have enough prison room for millions of petty drug abusers, we have the room for murderers.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

80. Consider this:

Before inserting the needle into the vein, at the prison, as an execution by lethal injection is about to be carried out, the person doing the insertion swabs the convict's arm with alcohol.

The last bit of civilization in that scenario, and it is absurd ...................

[ourbluenation]

15. If some monster murders one of my kids I want him/her dead. n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

18. I think most people would.

But it would be a mistake to let the emotions of grieving parents guide the legal system.

[Marr]

67. I don't think that's necessarily true.

I'm not sure where I stand on the Death Penalty. As a deterrent to crime it's obviously not effective, but as a means of retribution for victims, it may have validity.

Don't we, as members of society, have some responsibility to others who abide by the social contract? A parent whose child has been murdered may well be justified in demanding retribution, or revenge, or whatever you choose to call it. They have lived by the rules, and been wronged by someone who has not.

[TexasObserver]

20. And that isn't a justification for the death penalty.

So beat on your chest and declare your toughness, as if that is relevant to the topic.

Guess what? EVERYONE wants revenge, but that's not a reason to form our laws around such emotion.

Try growing up and addressing the topic as if the issue is how do we as a society deal with the worst of criminals, instead playing some Walter Mitty drama in your head of how you're going to get even with the imaginary criminal who kills your children. Your "I'm kill them for my kids" rationale is the one that has justified the uncivilized for centuries.

[ourbluenation]

22. It's not about revenge, it's about justice and that to me is justice for a murder like Polly Klass

stolen from her own home, strangled and left for dead by the side of the road. Justice for her family is to not have to breathe the same air as him. I used to be 100% against the death penalty. And in most cases I still am. But when I brought my newborn son home from the hospital I weeped uncontrollably at the thought of anyone harming him. It was 21 years ago this friday. Now maybe it was the hormones at the time, but at 45 those bodily changes are long gone yet I still feel the same way. Child Killers just need to go.

[Bluerthanblue]

32. as a mother

i understand the bond- that "mother bear" side, which is natural, but i don't believe that is justification for blood revenge.
I'd give my life willingly defending my children, but if someone murdered one of them, killing the person responsible would do nothing to bring them back.
It isn't up to US- (or it SHOULDN'T be) to decide who 'is fit to breathe the same air' as us. That's a slippery slope you're stepping out on.

Everyone was a vulnerable, fragile child once. There is a part of each one of us that still is, and always will be. It's easy to see children as 'sacred'- We have nothing to hold against them to rationalize someone harming them, or why they should suffer or die before they grow old. BUT- Their lives aren't any more or less precious than a middle aged man, or old woman- or they shouldn't be. "Child Killers"- is your choice of who should be murdered for having murdered. For some it's "Cop Killers", and then there are those who murder someone simply because 'they' belong to a 'chosen select group' which i call a "hate crime".

I'd suggest to you that the death penalty is in itself a kind of 'hate crime'- all dressed up in pretty words, moral outrage, and grief driven 'justification'.

[TexasObserver]

42. Yes, it's all about revenge, and about nothing else.

Your position is irrational.

We know that police lie. We know that prosecutors lie. We know that the accused get poor representation. We know that our system is stacked against the poor and the accused from start to finish. We know that DNA evidence has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that many men who were convicted of the most heinous crimes the past 40 years were innocent of the crimes for which they were sentenced to death, or life in prison.

We know there are crooked cops, crooked judges, crooked prosecutors, and yet, you talk as if there is perfect justice, perfect certainty. Because we do know that the justice system is capable of horrific mistakes in cases where people just like you clamored for a bloody revenge. And you still claim you're doing it for your child.

I have three grown children, older than yours, so your personalizing your support of the death penalty by invoking your love for your child is hollow. Thankfully, those grown kids are sane, intelligent adults who let their compassion, not their seedier emotions, drive them. That's why they oppose the death penalty. That's why one of them attends death penalty vigils at Huntsville for each execution.

The death penalty is about us, as a nation. It's not about the bad man who did a terrible thing. If you think it's about you "breathing the same air as him," get a cylinder of oxygen if your lungs are that sensitive.

[ourbluenation]

46. My position is not irrational to me but thank you for taking the time to respond. n/t

[Marr]

68. That, I think, is the strongest argument against the death penalty.

Our justice system is far from perfect, so absolute measures may be inappropriate. Or perhaps that's only an argument against the pervasive use of a death penalty.

After all, many people are guilty beyond more than a *reasonable* doubt.

[TexasObserver]

70. However one feels about the moral issue, the flaws of the Justice system compel opposition.

We know there are hundreds who have been proved innocent, usually in heinous crimes where the family of the victim, the public, the media, the police, the prosecutors, the trial judge, and the appeals judges all found the Wrong man guilty.

[EFerrari]

64. That isn't justice. You can't justify the killing of a child by killing someone else.

It can't be justified at all.

[Freddie Stubbs]

37. It is in a represetative democracy

We have the death penalty because voters have elected leaders who support the death penalty.

[Bluerthanblue]

41. and 'voters have elected leaders who' declare war on sovereign

nations, justify torture, discriminate against people based on sexual orientation, __________,_________,__________......

Does that make it 'right'? Does that justify continuing to do wrong?
Many things that happen in this country don't happen with the consent of the majority of the governed.
That isn't 'right' in a government which is supposed to be "of, by and FOR-'the people'.


:shrug:

[Freddie Stubbs]

43. Capital Punishment does happen with the consent of the majority:

http://www.pollingreport.com/crime.htm

[Bluerthanblue]

45. not going to

de-rail this- polls are useful when they give the results you are looking for.

They are also usefull in manipulating 'public opinion'-


Bush could cite many polls that justify what he did- that doesn't make it 'right'.

:hi:

[MajorChode]

79. There is such a thing as "tryanny of the majority" also

If all individual rights were subject to a majority vote, we would not have any worth mentioning.

[Thothmes]

60. Yes, that is what our Constitution allows them to do

Right has nothing to do with it.

[TexasObserver]

44. The same could be said of slavery and other outrages.

Your argument is old, stale and disingenuous.

Arguing that a position is sound because it has majority support is the excuse for all excesses of the majority.

[Bluerthanblue]

23. acting on wants" is what often puts people

on death row.

We have instinctual responses to many things- Often, with some time and distance, we realize that our knee-jerk responses, would only compound our grief. And we are grateful that we have the support of society that keeps us from acting impulsively.

[ourbluenation]

26. nobody is executed impusively. The appeal process takes years and years...

just sayin'

[Bluerthanblue]

33. which makes

the practice of executing someone all the more indefensible (imo).

What should be recognized as an irrational response to wrong, has been given a 'sovereign' 'righteous' longstanding societal approval.

And we humans tend to stubbornly resist change- especially when applied to very emotional issues.

:hi:

[RedCappedBandit]

28. Attitudes such as this are precisely why our justice system

is supposed to be non-biased.. aka blind.

[ourbluenation]

29. that is true. n/t

[prolesunited]

57. So the state should serve as a tool for your bloodlust?

Of course you would want the killer dead, but this ain't the wild west.

[InvisibleTouch]

72. Agreed.

I don't understand why a murderer should get more compassion and clemency than they gave their victim.

[Bill McBlueState]

19. With a subject line like that, you won't convince anyone of anything

But maybe you have a different goal.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. what's the bottom line though? Did the OP initiate

a discussion? Are people at least talking about the DP?

The video etc. may be nothing more than a squeeky wheel- annoying, maybe frustrating, something that beggs attention- but it has opened dialogue.

silence isn't always golden.


:hi:

[Tim01]

24. I really do think decisisions should be based on emotional song videos.

It is so very sad that a poor helpless soul has to go through the awful and barbaric process of being put to death. AFTER HE HAS CHOSEN TO RAPE AND MURDER CHILDREN FOR HIS OWN AMUSEMENT!!!!

If I can find a video of children being murdered everybody can be IN FAVOR of the death penalty.

Realistically the problem with the death penalty is not that it hurts some peoples feelings, but rather that is so very permanent. If an innocent person is executed you can't take it back.
"Oops, you were innocent, my bad."

I am going to see if I can find a rousing video about a parent or spouse who beats the living shit out of a low life who is trying to hurt their family, and the police refuse to arrest the protector. That would be worth while.

[ourbluenation]

50. Exactly. And for my honest reponse on where I'm coming from I got raked by some.

and that's fine and expected, actually. I just really think that if most anti-death penalty folks were faced with the brutal killing of their kid they would feel differently. I do.

[Tim01]

54. That's what you get for being honest.

Sounds like you also suffer from a normal level of male hormones and a realistic world view as well. I guess well just never be sweet enough. Oh well, what can you do?

On or more serious note. If you lost your kid, I'm sorry. My heart breaks for you.

[ourbluenation]

58. didn't lose a kid. no worries there. n/t

[Tim01]

59. I'm glad. My friend lost his daughter to cancer. It is really bad. nt

[Forkboy]

34. I'm vehemently anti-death penalty, and this doesn't help our side at all.

:shrug:

[ContraBass Black]

40. I oppose the death penalty

But I still think that declaring that those who do not are driven by fear and hate and calling them and the people of those countries listed less intelligent, humane, and civilized than yourself is arrogant, provocative, and counter-productive.

[Heidi]

47. Attempts at emotional manipulation aren't the way to go on this issue, in my opinion.

That's what the right does and, although it's effective, it isn't honest. Better to woo people with facts and data than try to pummel their emotions.

I've never been a death penalty supporter and can't ever envision myself supporting it, but -- as heartfelt as your OP no doubt is -- I don't think it's gonna change anyone's mind.

[Shell Beau]

66. Exactly. I am mostly against the death penalty.

The times that I may be "for it" are based on pure emotions. That isn't how I want something so permanent as the DP to be dealt with. My head always tells me it is wrong wrong wrong. But there are times when my heart tells me the asshole should die (such as the case written above when the dad made the daughter sit and watch the mom be cut up). My emotions shouldn't decide when someone dies.

[MasonJar]

49. Death penalty should be reserved for treason. I insist it be retained for the Bushista.

[dustbunnie]

69. This may sound simplistic -

But when you've lived in a country where there is no death penalty, you become aware of how people have adapted to believe life imprisonment to be "the worst" punishment a society can mete out. If the consumption of red meat were suddenly banned, people might miss it for awhile, but eventually their tastes would adapt to thinking chicken to be the best thing this side of heaven.

And really when you think about it, a person rotting away in a confined area without the hope of ever enjoying a breath of air as a free person again, it is a terrible punishment. Even if the person never feels remorse, s/he will certainly eventually regret that one despicable act which changed his/her life forever. It likely becomes worse as time plods on endlessly... and the dull aching regret eating away at a person's heart is as, if not more, painful than the prospect of losing one's life.

Even if the idea of executing someone doesn't repulse people, the idea of employing people to kill is just barbaric.

[MrSlayer]

71. Your point is ridiculous.

Because I believe deserving assholes like McVeigh or the BTK killer should be executed for their crimes does not mean I stand with Saudi Arabia or Iran in their enforcement of capital punishment for being gay or walking around with a man not your husband or whatever other ludicrous reasons they have for it. Some of their executions are perfectly justified, others are not. It's not an all or nothing thing. You are tagging a lot of people with beliefs they do not hold.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nomorenomore08]

74. I'm not big on the DP myself, but this OP is kind of needlessly inflammatory.

Here's a gentle hint - employing a variation of "Agree with me or you're a bad/stupid person!" is not an effective means of swaying people's opinions. More often than not it accomplishes the opposite.

[ForrestGump]

75. People who post loaded thread titles, designed and skewed to put on the defensive any dissenters,

should be put to death. But first they should be tortured and fed McDonald's food, if you'll excuse the redundancy.

[Maru Kitteh]

106. W - - I - - -L - - S- - O - - N - - - ! ! !

sorry. I love Wilson.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. This reminds me of conservatives attempting to squash dissent on abortion.

[cliffordu]

82. Ah, horseshit.

"Like it or not, those are your ideological brethren and moral equals".


Who the fuck put you in charge of judging morals???

Your whole argument conveniently ignores WHAT people are executed for. Specious. Bogus Posit.


I'm against the death penalty except in the most egregious of crimes - the wanton murder of children comes to mind, but claiming THAT is the moral equivalent of the Iranians executing a woman for adultery is just fucking stupid.

[aikoaiko]

83. I think the lyrics made a pretty good case for the death penalty.

Even Earle's killer think he has it coming and it isn't enough.

[ConsAreLiars]

84. Thanks to those who have contributed their views to this discussion.

With a few exceptions, the comments have been helpful in explaining and illustrating the different sets of values and types of reasoning behind the different positions regarding the death penalty.

I think the issue is not a small one, but is a key indicator that reveals a lot about the kind of country and culture we are.

[Politicalboi]

85. I am for the DP in some cases

We have new technology which can in some cases prove your innocence or guilt. Not all cases are the same or cut and dry. I would be more persueded to be against the DP if the system didn't allow for these bastards to get parole. The system needs to be changed. Like I've said before, Manson might be a free man if it weren't for the victims families going to parole hearings. The killings were their life sentences but now they have to go to parole hearings too. Look at OJ. The system let us down and we had a murderer running in the steets for over 10 years. The jury should have been arrested for not obeying the oath they took. There was 9 months of evidence and they took only 90 minutes to come up with a verdict. And the wrong verdict. And the jury ignored all of the DNA evidence. Ito should have called a mistrial.

[LWolf]

90. I've never supported the death penalty,

but thanks for the early morning listening. I have "Transcendental Blues," but haven't listened to it for awhile. My favorite track is "John Walker's Blues," but this one is good, too.

Will the majority ever "get" that putting people to death is not the way to "be the change we want to see?"

[Blue_Tires]

91. ttt

[Why Syzygy]

92. I'll repost this (you may have seen it)

In my junior year of high school, a year before the Supreme Court banned it, I delivered a speech as a class assignment wherein I defended and supported Capital Punishment. Preparing for the speech was about the only thought ever given to the question. As a naive' teen, I still thought the world could be made 'right'. Once it was deemed unconstitutional, the point was moot.

Eleven years later, my opinion was changed forever after I saw the film, The Executioner's Song.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083909 /

Gary Mark Gilmore (December 4, 1940 — January 17, 1977) was an American criminal and spree killer who gained international notoriety for demanding that his death sentence be fulfilled following two murders he committed in Utah. He became the first person executed in the United States after the U.S. Supreme Court upheld a new series of death penalty statutes in the 1976 decision Gregg v. Georgia (these new statutes avoiding the problems that had led earlier death penalty statutes to be deemed unconstitutional in Furman v. Georgia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gilmore

Consider the company we keep when we engage in the death penalty:

At least 3,000 people (and probably considerably more) were sentenced to death during 2007, and at the end of the year around 25,000 were on death row, with Pakistan and the USA accounting for about half this figure. (...)

Executions are known to have been carried out in the following countries in 2007:<30>

Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Belarus, Botswana, China, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Japan, Kuwait, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, USA, Vietnam, Yemen. (...)

USA is in the top six.

DPIC RESOURCES: Per Capita Executions by State
Posted: April 24, 2009

Although Texas leads the country by far with the most executions (436) since the reinstatement of the death penalty in 1976, it is second to Oklahoma in terms of executions as a fraction of the state's population. The other leading execution states on a per capita basis are Delaware, Virginia, Missouri, and Arkansas. The full ranking of executions per capita by state may be found here. In 2009, there have been 22 executions as of April 27, with 100% of them occurring in the South. Of the 22 executions, 13 have been in Texas. In 2008, 95% of the executions wee in the South.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/home

The ACLU calls it "the ultimate denial of civil liberties".
http://www.aclu.org/capital/index.html

Amnesty International says it is "ultimate, irreversible denial of human rights".
http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty/page.do?id=1011...

The field of psychiatry equates suicide and homicide as having the same clinical characteristics.
Suicide is illegal. State sanctioned, peer justified homicide is not. In the murders we are seeing these days, the homicidal unquestionably display suicidal tendencies. Since they are one and the same, Capital Punishment merely completes the crime.

Will the USA ever be willing to live the Constitution, with guarantees of liberty for all?

[jmg257]

99. Ahh - never mind. nt

[snooper2]

101. If you rape and/or kill a child or baby...

You don't deserve to live...

over 6,000,000,000 people in the World and odds are you are going to have some rabid dogs...

And you know what we do with rabid dogs, put the fucker down.

[Bluerthanblue]

102. wrong-

just plain wrong.


A life is a life.

[snooper2]

107. well,

we can agree to disagree. Guess you didn't grow up on a farm.

Some humans should be put down- rabid dog is a rabid dog...

[LiberalPersona]

105. There are far worse things than death

To many people death isn't punishment, it's relief.
Providing eternal relief to someone for committing heinous acts is hardly what I'd call justice.

[Matariki]

108. I'm not quite sure how posting song lyrics is going to affect people's opinion on the death penalty

not particularly good or moving lyrics either, in my very subjective opinion.