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"Oath Betrayed"..The 2002 death of Dilawar. From our early days of torture in Bagram.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:38 PM
Original message
"Oath Betrayed"..The 2002 death of Dilawar. From our early days of torture in Bagram.
A few excerpts from a 2006 book called Oath Betrayed by Dr. Steven Miles. A few excerpts are all one needs to read to see what we had done even before our invasion of Iraq.

From NPR: Excerpts from Oath Betrayed.

'Oath Betrayed' Questions Doctors' Roles in Torture

The reason for writing the book:

Miles, a doctor and medical ethics expert who has treated victims of torture throughout the world, had just one question: Where were the doctors? To answer that question he poured through records of army criminal investigations, FBI notes on debriefings of prisoners, autopsy reports, and prisoners' medical records.


From his book in which he talked about a man named Dilawar:

Dilawar was a twenty-two-year-old farmer and taxi driver, whom American soldiers tortured to death over five days at Bagram Collection Point in Afghanistan in December 2002. When the soldiers pulled a sandbag over his head, Dilawar complained that he could not breathe. He was then shackled and suspended from his arms for hours, denied water, and beaten so severely that his legs would have been amputated had he survived. When he was beaten with a baton, he would cry "Allah, Allah!," which guards found so amusing that they beat him some more just to hear him cry. During his final interrogation, soldiers told the delirious, injured prisoner that he would get medical attention after the session. Instead, he was returned to a cell and chained to the ceiling. Several hours later, a physician found him dead. By then, the interrogators had concluded that Dilawar was innocent and had simply been picked up after driving his new taxi by the wrong place at the wrong time.

Dilawar's death was predictable and preventable. The counterintelligence team was inexperienced; only two of its thirteen soldiers had ever conducted interrogations before arriving in Afghanistan. The officers knew that President Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld had ruled that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to Afghanistan. The interrogation policies were unclear. The base commander had ignored Red Cross protests about the treatment of prisoners, including the practice of suspending them. Army and intelligence officers who knew of the ongoing pattern of abuses at the Bagram facility did not intervene to stop them. In fact, another prisoner, Habibullah, had died at the same facility under similar circumstances six days before Dilawar's death.

An autopsy on December 13 found that Dilawar's death was a homicide, caused by extensive and severe "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" (inexplicably, "coronary artery disease" is typed on the death certificate in a different font). The Pentagon reported that the prisoner died of natural causes. Later, a coroner testified that Dilawar's legs were "pulpified" and that the body looked as if it had been "run over by a truck." Soldiers delivered the body and an English-language death certificate to his wife and two daughters in January 2003. The family could not read English.

Later in February, reporters went to Dilawar's village and located his family, who had the copy of the death certificate stating that Dilawar had died of homicidal injuries. The reporters confronted General McNeil with the death certificate that had been given to the family and asked him to explain why he had told reporters that Dilawar died a natural death of heart disease. General McNeil said that he always gave press the "best information available to him.


It is a very long excerpt, much more at the link. It is hard to read and remember that our country did this in our name whether we approved or not.

Move ahead to 2005 in Iraq. We continued these actions.

Haunted by the Iceman

While some lesser military were being court-martialed and jailed....those who tortured for the CIA got off lighter. From Time Magazine 2005.

Monday, Nov. 14, 2005
Haunted by "The Iceman"
By Adam Zagorin / Washington

Military Police at Iraq's notorious Abu Ghraib prison dubbed him the Iceman; others used the nickname Mr. Frosty. Some even called him Bernie, after the character in the 1989 movie Weekend at Bernie's, about a dead man whose associates carry him around as if he were still alive. The prisoner is listed as Manadel al-Jamadi in three official investigations of his death while in U.S. custody, a death that was ruled a homicide in a Defense Department autopsy. Photographs of his battered corpse -- iced to keep it from decomposing in order to hide the true circumstances of his dying -- were among the many made public in the spring of 2004, raising stark questions about America's treatment of enemy detainees. For most of the horrors shown in those Abu Ghraib photographs, there has been some accounting. Although no officers were court-martialed, a soldier who held a prisoner on a leash got three years in prison; another who repeatedly hit detainees got 10 years. But those prisoners were held by members of the military, which has a relatively transparent system of punishing errant behavior. Al-Jamadi was a prisoner of the far more secretive CIA. That fact, for the moment, leaves unanswered the questions, If he was the victim of a homicide, who killed him? And will there be a trial?


There is so much hard reading on this one.

Al-Jamadi's story begins on the night of Nov. 4, 2003, when Navy Seals abducted him from his family's tiny apartment in a rundown Baghdad suburb. The CIA wanted to interrogate him because he was suspected of harboring two tons of high explosives and being involved in the bombing of a Red Cross center in Baghdad that killed 12 people. By the time the Seals overcame his violent resistance and dropped him off at Abu Ghraib as a "ghost detainee"--an unregistered prisoner--al-Jamadi had suffered damage to his left eye and facial cuts. He had also been roughed up in a way that may account for the fact that the autopsy revealed six broken ribs. His injuries, which the autopsy concluded could not have caused his death, did not prevent him from walking into the prison handcuffed and shackled, answering questions in English and Arabic.

The prisoner was then taken to a shower room, where his arms were pulled behind his back and shackled to window bars, forcing him to stand erect. Wearing an empty sandbag over his head, he was interrogated by a CIA officer identified in last week's issue of the New Yorker as Mark Swanner, who is not a covert operative. Roughly 90 minutes later, al-Jamadi was dead. One of the MPs who unshackled al-Jamadi's body from the window testified that blood gushed from his mouth and nose like "a faucet had turned on," flowing onto the floor where his hood now lay. The autopsy ruled that al-Jamadi's death was brought on by "blunt-force injuries" and "asphyxiation." Cyril Wecht, coroner of Allegheny County, Pa., and past president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, examined the autopsy report and other records of the investigations and says, "The most likely cause of death was suffocation, which would have occurred when the sandbag was placed over Jamadi's head, as his arms were secured up and behind his back, constricting breathing." Swanner told investigators he did not harm the prisoner.


I don't know if they ever found where they took his body.

Al-Jamadi's demise deeply unsettled his captors, according to the investigations. The guard who first determined that the prisoner was no longer alive told CIA agents, "This guy's dead--it's on you." Another guard later said the agents "didn't know what the hell to do." A CIA employee reported being told by a colleague to "keep his mouth shut about the incident and not say anything about it in e-mail." When Abu Ghraib's military-intelligence commander showed up, a witness heard him say, "I'm not going down for this alone." To avoid roiling the other prisoners and prevent decomposition of the body, al-Jamadi's corpse was iced down and held in the interrogation room overnight. The next day, wrapped in a body bag, covered with a blanket and with an intravenous tube taped to his arm, al-Jamadi was spirited out of Abu Ghraib as if he were merely an invalid. The location of his remains has not been made public.


Do you remember the Military Commissions Act of 2006? I have not kept up with what parts were repealed, what parts are still intact. It was a tragic bill to pass. It was still a Republican controlled congress, but far too many Democrats voted for it.

It in effect said that what we had been doing was not illegal. At least that is my understanding. I don't know how that will play today into investigating and charging those who ordered the torture.

Congress's Shameful Retreat From American Values

Here is a summary from Garrison Keillor.

The Senate also decided it's up to the president to decide whether it's OK to make these enemies stand naked in cold rooms for a couple of days in blinding light and be beaten by interrogators. This is now purely a bureaucratic matter: The plenipotentiary stamps the file "enemy combatants" and throws the poor schnooks into prison and at his leisure he tries them by any sort of kangaroo court he wishes to assemble and they have no right to see the evidence against them, and there is no appeal. This was passed by 65 senators and will now be signed by President Bush, put into effect, and in due course be thrown out by the courts.

It's good that Barry Goldwater is dead because this would have killed him. Go back to the Senate of 1964 - Goldwater, Dirksen, Russell, McCarthy, Javits, Morse, Fulbright - and you won't find more than 10 votes for it.


The words from the link of Bob Geiger, a blogger whose work I appreciate so much.

The Senate Democrats who voted for this MCA in 2006. The words blogger Bob Geiger, whose work I appreciate.Yet the 12 Democrats who checked their consciences at the Senate cloakroom and voted in favor of the Bush Administration's torture bill this week, have almost nothing to say about their votes. In case you haven't seen the roster of who voted with Republicans on this, here they are:

* Thomas Carper (D-DE)
* Tim Johnson (D-SD)
* Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
* Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)
* Joe Lieberman (D-CT)
* Robert Menendez (D-NJ)
* Bill Nelson (D-FL)
* Ben Nelson (D-NE)
* Mark Pryor (D-AR)
* Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
* Ken Salazar (D-CO)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)


As Garrison Keillor said: Mark their names and mark them well.

Here are the Democratic votes in the House:

Andrews, Bean, Barrow, Bishop(GA), Boren, Boswell, Boyd(FL), Brown(OH), Chandler, Cramer, Cuellar, Davis(AL), Davis(TN), Edwards, Etheridge, Ford, Fox? (not sure), Gordon, Herseth, Higgins, Holden, Marshall, Melancon, McIntyre, Michaud, Moore(KS), Peterson(MN), Pomeroy, Ross, Salazar, Scott, Spratt, Tanner, Taylor(MS)


Mark their names also. They also said it was okay for "the president to decide whether it's OK to make these enemies stand naked in cold rooms for a couple of days in blinding light and be beaten by interrogators."

It was no okay then, it is not okay now. It was a way to appear tough and hard and unbeatable to the world. It did not work.

I don't think we look so macho now.

President Obama is handling this very difficult very delicate job in a calm and sure manner. I think he will do what he can to restore our image in the world.

But the Democrats who went along with this have to examine their consciences.


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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Thanks
I wonder how the MCA from 2006 will figure into doing anything about the torture now?

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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I wish I knew - it can go either way I think
A whitewash is obviously being pressured to occur, but the truth appears to have legs, in the end I think it may depend on the amount of pressure all of us apply regarding uncovering truth and using it to accomplish justice.

I fear the pressure that can/is being applied by powerful people in the intelligence community as well as all culpable politicians is an enormous power - add to that my paranoid belief that NSA wiretaps have produced blackmail folders on a very large number of politicians (tin foil I know)
I fear the fix is too far in to be overcome.

I can't believe no one but me rec'd this thread, we need this information out in the public if the truth has any hope of prevailing.

Thank you for posting.:patriot:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Believe it.
So many have me on ignore they don't see it.

:evilgrin:
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We may both be invisible here
When I just used to make pretty, pretty pictures for people here I was well liked.

I apparently stepped over the line with my admittedly stubborn insistence that none are above the law and anyone that helped "move on" from crimes was culpable in those crimes.

Sometimes Democrats break the law or appease law-breakers - hence my invisibility.

:toast:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. There are certain lines...
and certain people one does not cross here. I have posted what I think is true and pay little attention to lines I should not cross.

:)
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. The Worst the truth will get you is a pizza
And there are other places to disseminate truth. I agree with your method and follow an almost identical course with my threads and responses.

A bit of truth I once learned from a hillbilly friend from west virginia (of all places)

"Truth don't hurt; lies hurt"

Fairly profound statement considering Greg never got past the 7th grade.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Good point.
:hi:
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tbyg52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. Well, I have you on the *opposite* of "ignore," and I appreciate you.
:hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. That was nice.
Thank you.

:hi:
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. I remember those days.
:hi:

Did you know that using any statements obtained through torture in any proceeding is a separate crime all together? Every commission or hearing where they introduced any of those statements is another violation of the Convention Against Torture. I started a thread about it here -> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5524945&mesg_id=5524945
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Hi
I think you are responding to me and though I remember you as a good poster I don't remember if I ever made you a gif. Sorry for my poor memory.

great post in the link BTW
:hi:
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Not for me, no.
Not here, anyhow. ;)

But I do remember that you were very popular here once. You were a huge contributor.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thanks!
Believe it or not it means a lot to hear that. My reputation these days... well
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. K & R
Reading these stories is just heartbreaking. Why is the MSM only focused on the issue of waterboarding? What about the murders?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Because the deaths are too frightening to mention.
They never do talk about the rest. Considering the pictures that were already released and on the internet...you would think they would cover more.
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. I really wonder how many people are even aware.
If you only get your information from the tv and papers would you even be aware of the depth of the depravity of the torture program? We need KO and Rachel and Ed and others to broaden the discussion....and quickly, before people get so entrenched in just talking about waterboarding and the other less fatal torture.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. They would have to get that info from books written or from the internet
as I don't think it has been mentioned on regular TV. Not a nice topic.
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Nevilledog Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yeah, I'll hold my breath that the incurious will become curious.
Apathy is all around us. If it doesn't concern them personally it just doesn't matter.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
9. Red Cross very critical of doctors they see in torture sessions
And may I say I don't blame them for being critical.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2538812.htm

"LISA MILLAR: The Red Cross has slammed medical personnel who allegedly supervised interrogations and the torture of terror suspects by the CIA. Based on interviews with 14 terror suspects, the Red Cross has found medics monitored prisoners' vital signs to make sure they didn't drown during waterboarding. And it says that may amount to direct participation in torture.

Emily Bourke reports.

EMILY BOURKE: The individual testimonies of 14 so-called 'high value' terror suspects detail a litany of torture techniques used during interrogations at secret locations and at Guantanamo Bay.

They describe confinement in a box, exposure to extreme cold, sleep deprivation and waterboarding.

But the Red Cross also found health professionals gave instructions to CIA interrogators to continue, adjust, or to stop particular methods.

One such account came from Indonesian-born terror suspect Hambali who said a medic told him.

HAMBALI (voiceover): 'I look after your body only because we need you for information.'"

The doctor told him he was watching out for him only because they need him for information?

Just how many ways does that discredit the medical profession.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
10. link to "Taxi to the Dark Side" viewable online-

It's 80mins- and really quite disturbing- but I HIGHLY recommend that EVERYONE watch this.

Dilawar- an innocent man, was murdered by us.

A sign outside Gitmo reads:

"Honorbound to defend Freedom"

:shrug:

PLEASE- if you haven't seen it- take the time to watch it. It's the least we can do.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2987535946644608661
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
34. It's a very disturbing film.
And I believe the same things that went on then at Bagram are going on now. I do not believe Obama actually intends to do anything about it, given the positions "his" (but which should be "our") DOJ is staking out on the civil rights of these prisoners, these and those at GITMO. What I think will happen is that GITMO may well be closed but those prisoners will actually be transferred to Bagram and maybe ever some "black ops" sites so that the torture and mistreatment can continue out of the glare. Sorry, I think Obama is much more beholden to the military and the need to appear "strong on terror" than on civil rights for all.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. I haven't watched that yet.
I hear it is devastating. Guess I am putting it off.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
11. We are heading for very dark days
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
I've always spoken out against the passing of the MCA of 2006. I will continue to speak out against it.

The bills that have been introduced to correct the MCA2006.

Info on how they died in Congress Breaking: Habeas Corpus Restoration Act filibustered by GOP

and here


FAQs: The Military Commissions Act


SCOTUS action

Boumediene v. Bush/Al Odah v. United States


"Today, the United States Supreme Court ruled that the part of the Military Commissions Act that attempted to block the federal courts from hearing the claims of our clients at Guantánamo was unconstitutional. In an historical decision, the Court unambiguously rejected the political branches’ attempts to cut the federal courts out of the process. In Boumediene v. Bush, the Court held that the Center’s clients detained at Guantánamo have a constitutional right to file petitions for habeas corpus in U.S. federal court challenging the lawfulness of their detention"


Supreme Court restores habeas corpus, strikes down key part of Military Commissions Act



and I support a full review of those being held at Bagram (how they got there and from where), as some were brought into Afghanistan from outside the country. You can't move people captured (by whatever means we don't know) from outside a war zone into a war zone (by whatever means that we don't know) and then claim they don't have rights because they are in a war zone. Especially since the only reason some of them are in a war zone is because our government put them there. We also need the review to determine how many were detained for no other reason than someone wanted the bounty money for turning in would-be terrorists. Money is a motivating factor for turning in innocent people just to get the money.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thank You For Putting This Up, Ma'am: These Things Cannot Be Forgotten
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. morning kick
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The Bakery Wagon Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. We're supposed to believe the capture of Bin Laden will accomplish something
yet bombs are still killing civilians and stories like this show that the US has created enough "bin ladens" to keep the Military Industrial Media Complex busy for a long long time.

Which was probably a goal (among many that "we" aren't trusted to know) from the start. $800 billion/yr on the books, what's the *real* total...To "protect" us from...



If this was your father/brother/friend...

Oath betrayed? It's a country and a future betrayed. And the real powers that lie behind all the lies have divided the country in half, putting citizen against citizen, making their job as easy as approving the next increase in the "defense" budget. The only question they have is what part of the world to conquer next.

Beyond disgusting. Can't wait to be an Ex Pat.-soon. And I'll laugh at all the "patriot act" abuses from afar, If people are dumb enough to let a bunch of lying thieving bloodthirsty empire loving scumbags take their liberties, they deserve it.

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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
21. What Was Done In Our Names
Thanks for this diary Madfloridian. Everyone who wants to sweep this under the rug should read what was done in our names.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R!!!
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
24. I believe that my senator, Sherrod Brown (OH) voted FOR the MCA...
yet he's not on that list.

Someone please correct this if it's inaccurate.

I remember railing at his DC office over and over. Nothing changed.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. The MCA vote was in October 2006
Brown was elected to the Senate in November that year, wasn't he? Maybe it was another vote. Did he vote yes on the FISA bill? So many did.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. He did
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Brown's vote is listed under the House votes.
He was not a senator yet then.

Here is where Cenk Uygur interviewed him and he apologized for his vote.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/sen-sherrod-brown-doh_b_52767.html

"We interviewed Senator Sherrod Brown (D-OH) on The Young Turks yesterday. He was attending the Take Back America conference where we are broadcasting from these last couple of days. We had a chance to pose the question we have been waiting a long time to ask him: Why did he vote for the Military Commissions Act?

That was the hideous bill passed right before the 2006 election that allowed the president to define torture (meaning the president would simply make torture legal), took away habeas corpus rights from detainees, made prosecuting war criminals nearly impossible, among many other hideous provisions. It was the worst piece of legislation I have ever seen in my lifetime. I wasn't the only one who thought so, so did The New York Times.

At the time Sherrod Brown was a Democratic Congressman from Ohio running for Senate against Mike DeWine. He was an otherwise progressive candidate. That's part of what made his vote so stunning. It seemed to be crass political calculation.

..."We finally got a chance to ask the Senator why he did it yesterday. He pretty much admitted that it was a political calculation. But he did take complete responsibility and said he would do everything he could to undo that vote."
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. I remember now. You are correct that he voted for it while
still a Congressman. His apologies aside, I'd like to know what he has done to remedy his "political calculation" that resulted in the deaths of innocent people. Nothing, as far as I can tell.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. A Kick For Those Who Might Have Forgotten, My Friends
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thank you for psoting this. I have never forgottent hat poor cab driver
As someone who spent a year dodging traffic to deliver pizzas, I relate whole heartedly to his plight. What an awful coincidence to have occur - and DAMN our polticians for what they did to him.

May Cheney Rove and Bush rot in hell.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. It was so tragic.
Never had to happen.
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