The pressure is on, they are frantic, and they are going down

[walldude]

Wow. When I first heard Obama say he wouldn't prosecute torturers I was pissed, then when I came to my senses and waded past both the "Obama is playing chess and Obama is no better than Bush meme's, I figured out what he did.

This isn't the be all end all chess move that many claim it is. What it is is a decent bit of political mojo. Obama can't be seen as having a political witch hunt, this can't seem like revenge, it has to be what it really is. Justice. So in a clever bit of maneuvering Obama releases the memo's. The public outcry is loud and clear. The American people have spoken. This must go before the Justice dept. If there is a crime they must prosecute. Obama comes away as having to follow the will of the people, the people get their justice, the criminals go to jail, and we can get back to business.

I didn't think the release of these memo's would come to any fruition but after watching Cheney and Lieberman start rolling out the "torture works" memo, and seeing the desperation on their faces, I know there are more memo's, I can see in their faces that some much worse shit is going to come to light, and heads will roll. I think if we keep up the pressure this will go the right way.


On edit: Oh I almost forgot to mention Valerie Plame. Scooter may have taken the fall but her outing and the subsequent loss of her undercover operation falls in Cheney's lap. The CIA knows this as does Cheney, They probably want to nail him as bad as we do...

[DevonRex]

1. Yep. That's most of it. The other part is that he's shaking the trees

to see which nuts fall out first, bearing gifts of actual evidence. Like who told whom to do what to whom.

[monmouth]

21. Would/could Scooter help out, and maybe Obama could help him?

Probably a stupid statement but trying to keep up with Prez gets you thinking along those lines...LOL.

[DevonRex]

32. Heh. You never know. :)

[Beetwasher]

2. Oh You Can Bet Your Ass There's More Coming

Bank on it.

[LSparkle]

3. This is the way justice is SUPPOSED to work ... without political motive

Obama HAS to stay out of this -- and keep his own
personal feelings to himself, which is why I'm sure
Rahmbo got called to the woodshed for saying the
WH didn't want prosecutions -- or the Justice Dept.
and the AG start to look like they're being manipulated
for POLITICAL REASONS (kind of like how Al Gonezales
did RatBastard's bidding). Obama has to wash his
hands of it and just let the facts lead the prosecu-
tors where they may.

[EFerrari]

10. This issue is awash in politics and I don't see how Obama can stay out

of it. But working your way through a difficult situation is light years away from the CONSPIRACY that the Bush Justice Department practiced.

[walldude]

11. He has to stay out of it. He's not legally allowed to interfere with

the Justice Dept. This is why this was a good play on his part.

[EFerrari]

17. Right. He can't interfere with DoJ but insofar as he's talking about it

he's trying to frame the issue which is understandable.

[knowbody0]

4. I smile and sigh when I imagine their fear.

From the invasion on, they said "fuck you" to the constitution, to the truth. They bent everything believing that a president at "war" would not be questioned. this karma train heading their way cannot be stopped. I am loving it!

[wuvuj]

66. They also said....

..."fuck you" to a large % of the Am people. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[EFerrari]

5. That's pretty much what I think, too. To pull the biggest reaction

you release those memos and you say you don't want to prosecute.

[lamp_shade]

6. Ding Ding Ding Ding

[tridim]

7. I still think there's video of Bush/Rummy/The Dick at Abu Gharib..

Getting a hands-on demonstration of how to stack naked bodies.

It's just a hunch, because I know how BushCo works.

[natrat]

8. i hope so because it is incredibly important precedent,without laws we are animals

[seemslikeadream]

9. He made the Dick come out of hiding again

Boy what power Our President has... truly an amazing site, someone pulling Cheney's strings for a change

[walldude]

14. LOL.. I never thought of it that way..

[glitch]

16. Ain't that the truth. Here spidey spidey spidey.

Apologies to spideys.

[Arugula Latte]

20. Yes, indeed. Heeeere, spidey. I've got something for you:

[xiamiam]

48. cheney has been interviewed more in the past several months than in the past several years..nt

[BlooInBloo]

54. I call it "A Few Good Men" syndrome....

Kaffee: Good. Jessup told Kendrick to order the code red, Kendrick did and our clients followed the order. The cover-up is not our case to win we have to get Jessup to tell the court members that he ordered the code red.

Lt. Weinberg: And you think you can just get him to say it?

Kaffee: I think he wants to say it. I think he's pissed off that he has to hide behind all this. I think he wants to say that he made a command decision and that should be then end of it.

(Starts imitating Jessup)
Kaffee: He eats breakfast 300 yards away from 4000 Cubans who are trained to kill him. And nobody's going to tell him how to run his unit least of all the Harvard mouth in his faggoty white uniform. I need to shake him, put him on the defensive and lead him right where he's dying to go.

Lt. Weinberg: That's the plan?

Kaffee: That's the plan.

Lt. Weinberg: And how are you going to that?

Kaffee: I have no idea.

Well, Obama had an idea, I think.

[glinda]

65. I hope DOJ has put a "tracking order" on Cheney

[seemslikeadream]

12. and maybe he purposely "forgot" to mention the Whitehouse has no say over Justice

It got much more play because he didn't. Rahm and him don't know the law, yea right

[opihimoimoi]

13. Proud to be the 5th or 6th R

K&R...

Obama sez: kick back,,,,I got this one too.....

[Laelth]

15. Yup. Keeping up the pressure is key.

"We the People" have to give the President cover to do the right thing.

As Gandhi would say, "There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

Obama is showing us what that means.

:dem:

-Laelth

[walldude]

19. Never heard that Ghandi quote before

but I love it!!!

[Laelth]

29. I heard it for the first time within the last year or two.

But it makes a lot of sense.

:toast:

-Laelth

[DearAbby]

18. Imagine the phone calls last few days

" you better back me in this"

"I am not gonna take the fall alone, like Scooter had too..."

all sorts of worried little snipets of conversations....Ohh I bet it was just juicy

[OneGrassRoot]

22. Seymour Hersh...

I'd love to hear what he has to say about the latest developments. I don't find anything beyond his article on 4/9 about The Middle East.

Sadly, there is a subset of our population who couldn't care less about "general" torture. Of adults. Even adults who may be innocent.

But if the videos of Iraqi boys being sodomized are revealed, only the Limbaugh crowd will find a way to defend it. They will be marginalized more and more.....

I'd like to think taking on this torture issue will be like a tiny Band-Aid trying to control an arterial bleed; when investigations begin about torture and the Band-Aid is removed, myriad crimes by BushCo will FINALLY gush to the surface for all to see.

All of it. Everything we've been repulsed by for eight long years, though I know it goes back decades.

But, shoot, will anyone still be in DC? The tightly interwoven corruption of various degrees is so prevalent now.

Let it all come out.

And let Faux News fade to black in total irrelevance.

[walldude]

25. You know I seem to remember reading about people in the House and

Senate getting physically ill when they saw the "real" Abu-Grahib photos. Those have still never been released, hopefully this is just the first little hole in the dam and when the information starts flowing out the whole thing will collapse.

[OneGrassRoot]

27. Yes, I recall that as well. I hope the whole sham of the...

PNAC collapses and is revealed in a way that people can really grasp the whole picture (yes, I'm thinking way beyond the torture issue alone...lol). How very, very corrupt and insidious this group has been...perhaps even exposing how they blackmailed others into supporting them and/or turning a blind eye.

The first little hole indeed. One can hope. ;)

[felinetta]

23. Yep, these poisonous Repubs are going to implode! And they thought

they were so smart-assed impeaching Clinton for an adult
trist!

[Lerkfish]

46. not sure what clinton's impeachment has to do with this, but ok.

:shrug:

[NYC_SKP]

24. Well, it's just like I said on Sunday. A couple of members agreed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5493965&mesg_id=5493983

He released the memos. He released them for a reason.

That point is too subtle, I guess, for the huffington post and NYT.

For a new administration to insist on vigorously prosecuting the prior administration is bad form, it's "playing checkers".

He released the memos.

He's doing it right.

:patriot:

[bertman]

26. Do you think maybe he was giving the CIA types carte blanche to spill the beans?

without fear of reprisal or prosecution?

There's some really good strategic play at work there. Yep, you could say he let people off the hook who were "just following (illegal) orders", but if that's what it takes to get the goods on the Bushco Crime bosses I'm willing to let the way-down-underlings off the legal hook.

If this plays out the way most of us at DU hope it does and there's a full-blown investigation and prosecutions take place, there will be a major tectonic shift in thinking within the Agency. Some of the eager torturers might find themselves in dead-end jobs as the intelligence world readjusts its priorities and methodology.

Hey, I can dream, can't I??

[walldude]

30. Well I'm sure there are a number of classified documents that we will never see

but a judge might. If we can get the crack in the dam flowing...


The other thing we need to remember is that Cheney knows he's fucked. It may have been Scooter who took the fall but it was Cheney who outed CIA operative Valerie Plame. The CIA has no love for him and I think they would be more than happy to put him away.

[bertman]

60. That's a very good point about Cheney betraying Valerie Plame. That is out-and-out treason.

Cheney was so fond of reminding everyone that we were at war, so that makes his outing of an active agent a capital crime. If found guilty, he should be executed. Honestly, I'd suspend my opposition to the death penalty if it came to Cheney being executed for his crimes against humanity.

Regarding the CIA, for all of the evil shit that the Agency is responsible for, there are still some very dedicated, loyal, true Americans, who serve their country in the Agency, and still believe in the American system of law. This whole torture business has brought shame down on them. You know some of them are smarting for some payback. Good night, Dick!!

[Fireweed247]

28. I hope you are right

This is what I am hoping on every issue. The insurance/corporate/banking lobby is so powerful, he cannot stand up to them alone. He wants us to push him, so he can say hey, the people made me do it.

I love this!

"There go my people. I must follow them, for I am their leader."

so empowering- we need to start doing the leading. Let's all stop bashing Obama, and lets all stop mindlessly supporting Obama because he doesn't want us to do that. WE are supposed to join together and make our Demands loudly...on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, on health care...on everything.

I have no doubt if we were in the streets protesting the wars right now, Obama would be rethinking his position. He would not ignore US like Bush did. But we are not on the streets. Why is that? (Instead we are just making fun of people who finally got off the couch to protest the bailouts)

[Usrename]

31. Do you really trust our courts on this?

This Supreme Court is WORSE than the court that decided Bush v Gore.

Do you trust them on the torture question?

[walldude]

34. Yes I do, and I'll tell you why in two words.

Valerie Plame. The CIA knows it was Cheney, the man outed an undercover op and ruined years of undercover work. This is their chance to get him back. Have you seen them today announcing that Cheney has no request in for the documents that "prove torture works"? It took them only hours to counter his claims. Oh and the Supreme court will not hear the torture case unless an appeal is brought before them. By that time enough information will be out there that there will be no grounds for appeal.

[Usrename]

37. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

First, there is a good possibility that KKKarl Rove was indicted by a grand jury over the Plame outing, and that his indictment was suppressed by the Supreme Court. There was a case, Secret v Secret, that was heard on the same day that the indictment was supposed to be voted out.

Even if that never happened, the old court did rule that it was unconstitutional to count legally cast ballots.

Think about that. They said it is illegal to count legally cast votes. Think about it.

What makes you think they won't decide that torture is legal? Seriously. What makes you think they won't rule in favor of Bush/Cheney again? Is there something in particular that gives you confidence in them? What?

[walldude]

43. The fact that they aren't in control anymore. It's not some neo-con

THe justice dept will follow the book on this. This isn't the Bush administration they aren't going to just "decide" that torture is legal. And I'll say it again the Supreme Court will not hear this case unless it is appealed.

Yes I have faith that if we keep up the pressure and the crack keeps widening there will be no choice but to prosecute. I get the feeling that if all this goes through it will be a united call for justice.

[Usrename]

47. Let me try and get this straight.

Do you think that if the former president and vice president are convicted (and sentenced to prison for war crimes) that they might just go quietly to jail without even appealing the case to the Supreme Court? Really? Is that possible?

And when they do appeal, then do you think that the Supreme Court will act differently now than they have in the past just because Obama is president now?

I honestly don't understand your reasoning at all.

My question is a simple one. What makes you think that the Supreme Court will uphold a conviction against these guys? Won't things only get worse if the court says that Bush/Cheney had every right to implement a torture regime and that nothing they did was illegal? Do you think that we have some kind of guaratee that this won't happen if and when Bush/Cheney are prosecuted?

[EFerrari]

40. CIA hates Cheney or, some part of it does.

But they are also filthy. :shrug:

[walldude]

44. Agreed, they are so dirty that they have the real dirt on Cheney

this is why the man is scrambling. He knows what they have on him. And he knows they are anxious to use it. Behind the scenes he's probably pulling in every favor, pulling every string and planning his escape in case he goes down.

[EFerrari]

45. This is going to get much too interesting. And how do you like

Dick Cheney. He does everything he can to blow up the planet his grandkids are born to but now, he wants to save his skin.

[malaise]

55. If you listened to those Cheney clips

He's already having severe breathing problems. That fucker will kill himself before he goes to prison.

[Mister Ed]

59. Those cards must fall where they may.

You're right, of course. There's no question that this Supreme Court is worse than the one that installed GWB. We now have the extremist Roberts and Alito in place of the merely conservative Rehnquist and O'Connor. Count on them (along with Scalia and Thomas) to construct the most convoluted legal opinions imaginable to overturn justice for Bush, Cheney, and their minions. And at least one more justice would probably blanch at the prospect of convicting and sentencing a former president or vice president.

However, I'm sure you'll agree that we must not postpone the pursuit of justice until such time as the neocons on the court have retired and been replaced. That day may be decades away.

[Usrename]

69. I don't think we can handle it ourselves.

An international approach might work, maybe if our NATO allies were to come on board. They may be too compromised themselves to want to get involved. It is a real question, if you ask me.

My solution would be to impeach Scalia before this case works its way up. He went on an overnight camping/hunting trip with a defendant (Cheney) while his case was before him and then he refused to recuse himself from the case. What judge keeps his job after going on an overnighter with the defendant? I think it shines a huge spotlight on his lack of good judgment and he should be disqualified for sitting on the court because of it. He's a loon. I'd love to see the right wing forced to try and defend him on this. What is the excuse they would use for him spending the night with a defendant while his case was before him? I wonder. I'd love to hear it.

[Norquist Nemesis]

64. Torture is not a question! Dammit! It is a CRIME!!!!!! n/t

[keepthemhonest]

68. It was the supreme court that decided it NT

[omega minimo]

33. The voice of the People matters. Including constructive criticism of the O admin. Like democracy.

[walldude]

35. Kinda nice when things work the way they are supposed to for a change.

Of course I could be wrong about all of this but I don't think so. We just have to keep up the pressure and get the ball rolling, once it's going there will be no stopping it.

[omega minimo]

38. Ironic if Bushco are shitting bricks b/c Obama is not just Fearless Leader but has the ability to

do the right thing and blame us for it. :thumbsup: This was the Moyers, Grieder, Hartmann et al point -- AND THE CONCEPT OF DEMOCRACY -- we lead, they follow. We nudge, they have cover.

[Odin2005]

42. As FDR said "I want to, now come and make me do it".

[omega minimo]

50. ooooooooooooh cool. Didn't know that. As Thomas Edison said, "Wilson, I need you."

:think:

[Odin2005]

36. He provoked Darth Cheney to open his mouth so Obama must of struck some nerves.

[omega minimo]

39. Yeah, but only one SIDE of Cheney's mouth

:wow: :spray:

[Odin2005]

41. LOL!

:rofl:

[omega minimo]

49. Ha Ha Made Ya Laugh!!

:toast:

[Odin2005]

57. That smiley is all the funnier with the "Cheerio" in your sig-line!

:)

[omega minimo]

58. Could change it to

:toast:

Cheers then

[BlooInBloo]

56. (snarfle)

[Oilwellian]

51. Enter Zelikow

I bet Cheney's pucker factor is zero now. :rofl:

[salguine]

52. "The pressure is on, they are frantic, and they are going down"? I'll take

that bet. My bet is "Nobody's under any pressure, they're maybe a little apprehensive at worst, and they'll all walk scot-free."

[malaise]

53. They are

Scared Shitless

[islandgirl808]

61. and so it begins....

dun dun dun *insert evil laugh* muahahahah!

:evilgrin:

seriously though, i truly hope that justice wins out in the end and that good will triumph over evil. especially for the sake of every innocent person that has died because of the bushco monsters...

[readmoreoften]

62. My guess is that you're wrong, but my hope is that you're right.

If the Obama administration moves to prosecute the Bush/Cheney administration in good faith, I will not only vote for Obama next round, I will tithe. I'd love for him to be a hero. I don't expect it, but I welcome the concept.

[Norquist Nemesis]

63. Cheney's sudden spotlight is for one purpose only...HIM!!!!

Folks, it's not about torture right or wrong "to keep us safe". He's doing exactly what Tom DeLay did when he was charged...go out on the airwaves as much as possible and deny, defend, distract. Cheney is NOT trying to defend torture or Bush. He is NOT going to give Obama any kudos in the slightest--because he knows the media hounds will play on "the debate".

The SOLE REASON for Mr. 22% is to taint a jury pool, and then should he be charged with crime(s) he can claim that he wouldn't get a fair trial. (period emphasized) Unfortunately, Cheney is no longer the power over the information (read "evidence"). Does anyone believe that he would have allowed documents of their "successes" while he was still in office? He's fighting to keep his ass out of jail by making it seem as if committing a crime is a public debate rather than a rule of law!!!

[pacalo]

67. Obama released the memos an ACLU lawsuit, I thought.