It's "Okay" Not to Be Religious--Regarding Newsweek Article

[yellowwood]

A "Newsweek" article has noted the decline of Christianity
http://www.newsweek.com/id/192583

My take on this is that a lot of us have been giving lip service to others' superstitions for fear of giving offense or for fear of being ostracized for not being "religious" enough. Now, with books like Dawkins' and others' saying that "the emperor has no clothes," more people feel free to state their true feelings. I believe that many people say that they believe in God and/or Christianity "just in case," not because it affects their lives.

I think now that pretending to be religious when one isn't just perpetuates the myths.

[geckosfeet]

1. Pretending to be religious. Now there's concept - deceit based faith.

[GreenPartyVoter]

30. It happens, though. I used to do it because I married into a conservative evangelical family. It wa

just easier to let them assume that I (still) agreed with whatever they think. (I hooked up with hubby during a certain phase of my life. Kicked that way of thinking, but kept the guy.)

I'm far more outspoken now, though. I have kids and I don't want them only hearing the conservative evangelical line of thinking on things. For example, I push them hard when it comes to science. Neither of my kids think people rode dinosaurs. But they are still young and easily influenced, so I have to keep my guard up.

[Zhade]

42. Well, faith is usually self-deceit (depending on the intelligence of the believer).

Most self-professed believers are smart enough to know deep down that their beliefs lack any corroborating evidence. As such, they're deceiving themselves when they claim that faith means those beliefs are true.

[CRF450]

51. I almost have to when I'm around my religious aunt.

I'm about to say "fuck it I am atheist so stop trying to make me go to church". Her hero is Douche Huckabee BTW which is no surprise :eyes:

Its pretty funny though, when I watch some show about the dinosaurs or evolution she'll get all antsy and just grunt in disgust about how BS evolution is. She also believes the earth is 6,000 years old lol!

[Warpy]

2. I've been an outlaw most of my life

Oh, my early childhood was spent in Catholic school, afraid not to believe, but I knew by the age of 10 it was all a bunch of hooey, just as bogus as Santa Claus. I also knew there were serious penalties for articulating that.

I've since come to think that belief and unbelief are hard wired, thanks to research in that area. There's no way to dissuade a true believer and no way to persuade an unbeliever. It just can't be done.

A lot of people who are afraid not to believe are the most defensive when somebody else questions that belief. They're secure only when other people agree with them about whatever belief they're clinging to.

Most of the time, I'm perfectly content to allow other people to cling to whatever gets them through a sleepless night. However, when they try to insert their religious dogma into civil law, they've got a fight on their hands and I won't let it go.

So I'm delighted the ranks of the unaffiliated are growing, probably due to the collapse of prosperity theology combined with the end of millennial fever. I am delighted their political power is finally on the wane. Whenever churches try to run politics, both suffer immensely.

Now if we could only get the rest to realize that my lack of belief has absolutely nothing to do with them, maybe we can all start getting along.

[lonestarnot]

5. "maybe we can all start getting along"

:P Nice concept.

[jhrobbins]

52. It hasn't been my experience that non-believers are in any way afraid to

confront believers. I don't think we are going to start getting along until people quit demonizing other people for their beliefs. We are ignorant if we believe - someone just said we were ignorant if we believed. I'm not sure exactly how to take that , but I know my IQ and it's just over 140, so it cannot be that. It's just in some people's makeup that someone must be wrong for them to be right and it's just not that simple. I believe in a higher power, but it is not some white beard in the sky.
They say it is wrong to believe in some 'creator' when even Hawking has said that all laws of physics break down just seconds before the 'big bang'. And yet, these same people have no problem (I suppose) in believing that all the mass in the universe was once smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. I struggle with that one too - it's hard to get my human mind that far out of the box paradigm it inhabits, but I try.

[Fumesucker]

7. I disagree that belief and disbelief are "hard wired"..

More like firmware, IMO.. The program can be changed but it is a fairly major procedure to do so.

If belief were indeed hard wired then it would be impossible for the rapid shift we have seen in religious views in the US to happen.

[Zhade]

43. True - conversions wouldn't happen, either.

NT!

[connecticut yankee]

3. It depends on your definition of "religious"

I'm a Unitarian.

We don't worship God, and we don't have creeds or dogmas, and many of us are atheists or agnostics.

But we go to church practically every Sunday.

Would you consider us "religious?"

[TexasObserver]

9. UU has a heavy overlap with progressives

At least in my area. The same progressives that go to UU are politically active on the liberal Democratic side.

[BlooInBloo]

11. No. UU's are people without the balls to say they're not religious.

[connecticut yankee]

15. Then

how do you define "religious?"

I know many people who slavishly follow their dogmas, attend services, etc, but are self-serving and don't give a damn about anyone else.

They consider themselves "religious." I don't.

[Beer Snob-50]

17. in my opinion the defination of religious

is not following some dogma, attend service or any of the otehr things mentioned in this thread but following the edict of Christ about how to deal with your fellow person (radical things like treat others as you wish to be treated). Religion generally gets fucked up when people with other agendas hijack religion for their own purpose.

[Bill McBlueState]

21. that's too narrow

Requiring one to follow a particular "edict of Christ" rules out the majority of the world's religious believers, who are not Christian.

[Beer Snob-50]

23. point well taken!!

how about following the edict of a higher being. that could be christ, buddha, Mohammad, the oak tree in your backyard, ect. for those who follow no religion it could be ones conscience

[Bill McBlueState]

20. "religious"

Belief in some kind of supernatural agent is required to be considered "religious."

You make it sound like a description of someone's ethical code, but I find that there's not much correlation between religious belief and ethical behavior.

[Marr]

22. I would say a religious person is anyone who practices a religion.

Or to be more generous, anyone who has religion near the center of their lives. Osama bin Laden and the Pope are both very religious people.

The word has zero moral import.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. That's awfully judgmental of you.

People can call themselves whatever they want. Why should you or I give a shit? :shrug:

[PurityOfEssence]

49. What's your take on agnostics?

Just askin'...

[Madam Mossfern]

4. God will punish you for that!

No, really. Paying respect to others who happen to be religious is respect for them, not their religion. It also depends on how one defines "God". I'm a Reconstructionist Jew. We tend not to believe in God in the way that is conventionally defined. But when I see a beautiful morning like this or wonder about the incredible rhythms of the universe, I believe there is a causal organizing force in the universe. Now, if I lie, I don't believe there will be divine retribution, rather, the natural consequences of my actions...or I may get away with it.

As long as someone doesn't try to convince me to believe the way they do, or to limit my freedom based on the particular myths of their religion, I have no issue.

I remember when I was very young...maybe about five or six. One of my friends told another that God will punish them for something that they did. I thought that she said that God will "punch" you for that. For quite some time I thought that God was some sort of bully that went around hitting people. My parents never brought me up to believe in a vengeful punishing God. I rejected literal belief in scripture at a very young age. I think that my views are more the norm than one would assume.

[yellowwood]

12. The Argument from Beauty

Yes, it's a beautiful day here, too. At one time I would have attributed that beauty to "the world." But I realize that "beauty" is a personal reaction to what my senses perceive. It's not something "out there." And to what then can I attribute "ugliness?" More likely, the perception and reaction to "beauty" is something that has developed from human evolution.
Some might say that some higher power made it possible for us to perceive beauty, but why? I think that it's awesome enough if it is a purely human outcome.

[TWiley]

6. You will loose your job to a Christian if you are vocal about it.

I see that happen often

[Fumesucker]

8. Especially if you live in one of the more ostentatiously religious parts of the country..

There are still a lot of people who are extremely uncomfortable about being around "out" atheists..

[trof]

10. To absolutley guarantee defeat in a political race in Alabama...

Just state that you are an atheist.
Even the non-religious politicians know they must pay lip service.
:-(

[madmom]

14. You can also loose your family. n/t

[RebelOne]

16. It's lose, people, LOSE.

Examples from "Action Grammar":

Things that are loose are not tight.
She lost weight and her clothes got loose.

Things that you lose cannot be found.
It's better to lose your wallet than your confidence.

[madmom]

19. Where would we be without the freaking grammar police?

:eyes:

[Fumesucker]

24. Err... Technically speaking that is the "spelling police"..

Commander Nitpick :)

[madmom]

25. Grammar or spelling, if that is all people have to worry able then bully for them!

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I'm gonna side with the grammar police on this one. "Lose/Loose" is OUT OF FREAKIN' CONTROL.

I've even seen it incorrectly done in an article in a major metropolitan newspaper. Because spellcheck won't catch it.

[Fumesucker]

34. I caught a huge billboard a few years back with a misspelled word..

One of the major local advertisers billboards, right above their place of business.

My son in law is more of a troublemaker than I am, he called the company in question and told them, it was quite hilarious to see them troop out of the building to look at their sign and shake their heads.

The truly funny thing is that the sign had been up for some time, weeks at least, and apparently I was the first one to notice.

And then there was the sign on the highway in NYC I saw a few years ago on a visit there. "Throgs Neck Thurway", an official DOT sign apparently.

Being a phonetic reader has its compensations sometimes..

[madmom]

40. Ok, I've been a member in good standing of this board for 6 years and this the

first time I've made spelling/grammar error. I think I should get a pass. I'm actually a pretty good speller, my family usually comes to me for "how do you spell......". Just shows we all screw up now and then.:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

44. I usually make my misspellings in the title of an OP..

I *hate* that.. :)

I'm by no means perfect, I'm really just poking a bit of fun.

:hug:

[Marr]

47. No!

The evidence doesn't support such a bold conclusion. It suggests that YOU screwed up at least ONCE-- nothing more!

That's called SCIENCE!

;)

[Warren DeMontague]

55. I get my brain farts around "ie" and "ei" words.

The ubiquity of the "loose/lose" confusion makes me think something else is going on. I've seen very, very intelligent people make that particular mistake. So certainly I wouldn't take having it pointed out personally.

[Marr]

46. Your reading alot into it.

You may think their are alot of DUers misspelling things, but for all intensive purposes, I think are grammar is good.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. I'm probably just casting asparagus again. nt

[wolfgangmo]

37. I've seen it happen too.

We don't tolerate it at my company. It's good to be the boss.

[ksilvas]

48. I work for a Christian Company, and am quite anti...

Be real, every time they talk shit, I'm like, Bring on the Rapture. Endtimes!
Bring It. They really have no faith. It's kinda sad.

[sarcasmo]

13. No religion and the world would be a Beautiful place.

[lunatica]

18. It's so good to belong again

:sarcasm:

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Well, I know from personal experience that for a long time Atheism (like my own) was something that

just wasn't discussed in polite company.

Fortunately, that's changed a bit, but even in progressive circles (like DU) you still see people who are uncomfortable with open declarations of Atheism.

[csziggy]

27. As far as I am concerned the people who need to speak out are the moderate religious

They far outnumber the extremists and the non-believers but will not speak out against the extremists and their dangerous views. I'm thinking mostly of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic moderates, though there could be other religions in which the mainstream members let a minority wacko contingent dictate the agenda.

As a non-believer, I am concerned that religions are being pushed far to the other extreme, though I have met very few believers who actually follow the extremist points of view.

[NeedleCast]

31. I think you're exactly right

as a non-believer myself, I have no issue with people who have mainstream religious beliefs...which is the vast majority of the country. It's the extremists who give them all a bad name.

[csziggy]

36. Yes, if we could just get rid of the fringe idiots, I might possibly still believe in a religion

As it is, I cannot forgive the moderate believers who let the whack jobs give their religion a bad name - and it is not just in this country!

[Apollo11]

38. Why would you even want to believe in something that is not true?

Is it for the feeling of belonging to a larger group?

The comfort of deluding yourself that dead people are still alive?

The melodic music and communal singing? :eyes:

Do you find that reality is too unpleasant to face?

[csziggy]

39. I suspect most people never really examine their beliefs or those of their churches

For most moderate "Christians" church is a social thing. It is just one of the parts of the lives they were brought up to do. They go for special holidays, weddings, funerals, baptisms but they don't really think about the philosophy or what it means in the context of modern life.

That is probably why they just go along with the extremists - they may think that those with stronger feelings about Christianity must know more and be better prepared to make the big choices about their shared beliefs.

I don't get it - when I examined the religion I was raised in and watched how my Sunday school teachers failed to apply the things they taught me to life the other six days of the week, I looked closer. And I realized how much evil has been done in the name of religion over the centuries and that I could not participate in that sort of self delusion.

I explored some other ways of thought and now pretty much am a non-committed atheist/agnostic. If I have to say what I believe, I point people to the Church of the Apathetic Agnostic, full name is The Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic - http://apatheticagnostic.com/. The deciding factor was their motto - "We don't know and we don't care."

I live the best I can caring about other people and the world but no longer care to investigate the subject. As I approach the age of 60, there is far too much I have not done that I prefer to use my time for.

[Fumesucker]

56. Deconversion is a process of examining ones beliefs rationally for the most part..

And I agree with you that most people never rationally examine the beliefs they have been taught.. It really takes a special mindset that is not particularly common in America at least.

Watching those who taught me not practice what they preached was the impetus for me to begin my own deconversion, by the time I was fifteen or sixteen I had mostly made up my mind I was not a theist, certainly not one who believed in Christianity.

[Iris]

32. I've noticed a lot of my friends from h.s. seem to be religious because you're supposed to be

many don't have a spiritual bone in their bodies, certainly no real lovingkindness or anything remotely resembling compassion, but they can talk the current craze in religious talk.

[csziggy]

35. Yes, a lot of "moderates" really are not religious.

They go to church sometimes because that is what is "done" especially here in the South. Take away that social pressure and they probably would not go to church.

[ismnotwasm]

33. Thank God It's Ok

Pun intended of course. Religion is fine with me, I just don't want it around government.

I became a far more content person when I realized that I don't have "it" whatever it is that makes people believe in Gods. I get along with religious people just fine when I don't bullshit.


"If, for instance, a general belief existed that the river Rhine had at one time flowed back-wards from its mouth to its source,then this belief would in itself be a fact even though such a assertion, physically understood, would be deemed utterly incredible. Beliefs of this kind are psychic facts with cannot be contested and need no proof"

From the Introduction of "Answer to Job" by CG Jung

Believe it all you want, just don't make the belief of a backwards flowing river into punishable by law fact, right?


I do disagree with those that think Religion is the original and best arbiter of moral--or any for that matter, truth. It most certainly is not.

[Zhade]

41. It's better than okay, it's freeing the self-imposed mental shackles of unsupported delusions.

NT!

[WI_DEM]

45. It's always been okay not to be religious.

[dysfunctional press]

50. i've seen people flash around a 90% number....

and i have a very hard time believing(among other things) that 90% of americans in this day and age actually believe in a supreme being of one stripe or another.

[InvisibleTouch]

53. I've never pretended to be what I'm not...

...but it's also not my intention to offend other people's beliefs, if that's what works for them, and if they are not trying to force it on me or the rest of the world.