What the percentage of the stimulus compared to the cost of the war?

[bbernardini]

My math tends to suck when I encounter such large numbers. The zeros always screw me up. :)

[Mari333]

1. well

900 or so billion for the stimulus 2009
2.4 trillion for both occupations
(googled for both)
all in all, we stop the fucking occupations and we pay off all our debt.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. No we can't.

I'm not saying it wouldn't help, of course, but our current Federal debt is $11 Trillion. If you add in state and local, corporate, and personal debt, it's much, much more, and if you add in our future obligations, like to Social Security and Medicare, it grows higher still.

Chris Martenson explains this very clearly in his Crash Course series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcc-TqvCXqU&feature=PlayList&p=7E8A774DA8435EEB&index=11

[Mari333]

3. true. but it would help.

and so would cutting the defense dept budget to the bone. that trillions dollar deficit is thanks to huge defense dept spending and these occupations.
russia is our example.

[fuggbush21]

8. Just a bit off on those numbers.

I'm taking a guess that this is the "google" that you did, but you didn't actually read the full story.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/24/news/economy/cbo_testimony/index.htm

That 2.4 Trillion is a forecast expenditure for the next 10 years (written in 2007, long before the Surge had taken affect so it's numbers can't really be relied apon anyways), not what has actually been spent. Here's how much it has cost from September 11, 2001 to the end of Fiscal Year 2008.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33110.pdf

$864 Billion is what has been spent on every war related appropration since Sept. 11, 2001. Still a bit pricier then the Stimulus Bill, but at the same time, it's not a 7 year war.

[KharmaTrain]

4. Apples And Oranges

The only thing both have in common are a big waste of our tax money. However, we have no clue on the costs of either. Iraq and Afghanistan have been "off the books" and calculating their real costs include the billions spent domestically to defense contractors that are hidden in many different bills. Whatever figure we hear is guestimate at what the yearly expenses are...and, yes, a staggering waste of money that could have been put to far greater use in this country. Money and opportunities wasted...and that's what's frustrating. When the boooosh regime took power, we had a rare chance to re-invest in America...instead these crooks looted the treasury and didn't stop until January 20th. We're still finding their landmines all over the place.

Bank bailouts are long-term expenditures...or at least in concept. For all the billions spent there, the hopes are that the money will return when the economy recovers. More jobs mean more money people are earning and spending...increasing tax revenues. In time, when the real estate markets recover, the toxic assets will start to gain some value as well...and while I doubt we'll see all the money recouped, there will be some.

With war, all the money that goes out never comes back (unless you're an oil exec or defense contractor)...the hopes are these bailouts will lead to restoring an economy that will eventually replenish the money we're expneding now and create a more stable economy. That's in theory...but reality is always another story. President Obama's ultimate legacy here will be to set the groundwork for that recovery and base it on a rejuvenated middle class.

[Mari333]

5. how is he going to rejuvenate the middle class

if he says that the outsourced factories and jobs wont come back? he has to be a lot more aggressive with the corporations who keep bleeding america dry with their need for slave wages and outsourcing. he has to be more aggressive with union restructuring at every level. he has to demand that importing foreign workers be stopped. I dont see him doing any of those things. if anything, he shrugs his shoulders and says the jobs wont come back. thats the manufacturing BASE of the middle class in america that was stolen from us.
right now this is a war (occupation) economy. if he gets behind going after corporations and their tax havens and outsourcing and importing of foreign workers, and cuts the defense spending to the bone and ends these insane occupations, I can see him making some change. until then, all the stimulus money in the world wont be more then pissing into the wind.

[KharmaTrain]

6. A War Economy? Hardly

My late parents would have laughed at that statement. They lived through a real wartime economy from 1942-1946...rationing and material shortages. We haven't come close to living in such an economy...for most of the years of the Iraq invasion/occupation most people didn't feel it (unless they had a loved one in the military) and neither did our economy. Like with foreign aid, most of that money never left this country...enriching the contractors and indirectly people in this country who did their procurment. It was a replay of Vietnam...a war for profit and many of those who profitted were right here in the good old U.S of A.

While jobs at GM plants may not come back, who says our future has to be GM? If anything, that company should be broken up and the subsidiaries given the funding to help create a new, more competitive auto industry...building or rebuilding factories in this country (with tax credits and incentives) and then to place taxes and tarrifs on imported goods that were used to undercut our base...meaning a pound of steel made in the US should cost no more than that made in China...the difference made up on taxes.

Most important, we can recoup billions annually by reforming banking laws...or just reinstituting many that were wiped away in the "Raygun Revolution"...from tax shelters to restoring the walls that once existed that kept banks and the markets from the wild speculation and gluttony of the past 30 years.

Change won't happen quick...and letting the economy go to total shits at this point would put millions more out of work, homes and hope. Many of your points are important and good ones, but they're also things that need to happen once stability is restored...when the debt bombs that continue to explode are defused and a new financial order is established.

I would love to see our troops home and the money put to use in this country, but you're then putting another 250,000 people into a very tight job pool...not to mention the large number of domestic jobs that, unfortunately, go into our death industries. But that's another topic for another day.

Change is coming...it has to. Our consumer economy...the engine that made the billions for the corporates has collapsed. They know as much as anyone that they won't be able to recover until the consumer market does.

[Mari333]

7. ...wtf

if we bring our troops home we are putting more people into a very tight job pool? so its better if we leave them there? you have got to be kidding...better to leave the kids over there to die or be blown to bits then to bring them back and have them look for jobs..
oh my god i cannot believe you said that
if you had a kid in the service you wouldnt say that. believe me.