The Taliban is not an organization that any progressive

[cali]

should be justifying or defending. Yes, I know that Obama wants to pare away members of the Taliban who are non-ideological. I know that the Taliban arose out of a confluence of factors- including the U.S., but defending the Taliban- and it's not at all uncommon here, is truly idiotic.

Oddly enough, or rather sadly, the DUers who defend or justify the Taliban or their actions, tend to be men.

If you're defending or justifying the Taliban out of knee jerk anti westernism, or for any other arcane reason, they're not worth it. And here's why:




http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/04/15/afghanistan-civilians-bear-cost-escalating-insurgent-attacks
http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/Sept98/091498b.htm
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17337
http://www.amazon.com/Taliban-Militant-Islam-Fundamentalism-Central/dp/0300089023

*A NOTE: PLEASE DON'T STOOP TO THE "YOU'RE SAYING WE SHOULD KILL THEM ALL, OR YOU'RE SHILLING FOR THE WAR". i'M NOT. I'M AGAINST A CONTINUATION OF THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN. BUT I'M AGAINST IT WITH THE FULL REALIZATION OF WHAT THE CORE OF THE TALIBAN IS AND THE SUFFERING THEY'VE CAUSED AND WILL CAUSE IN THE FUTURE. PARTICULARLY TO WOMEN, GIRLS AND THEIR ALLIES.

[billyoc]

1. Yes, the poor women and girls. The battle cry of the Cruise Missile Liberal.

Don't run from your progressive warmongering, cali, embrace it!

You have plenty of company.

[empyreanisles]

2. If we totally got rid of drones and fought exclusively with infantry, would you support that?

It would reduce the collateral damage.

[billyoc]

4. I have no belief that collateral damage would be reduced that way at all.

[coalition_unwilling]

32. If we fought exclusively with infantry, the

Afghan resistance would thoroughly kick our ass (see Vietnam).

Hell, we can't even keep supply lines open through the Khyber Pass, so relying on infantry to battle the Afghan resistance does not seem practical.

In short, a thorough ass kicking is headed our way. Obama's challenge will be to bamboozle the American public just long enough to win a 2nd term before the emrmity of our strategic defeat becomes clear.

[cali]

3. LOL, Billyboy. Don't run from your dishonesty.

keep lying. I wrote in big fat caps that I don't support the war in Afghanistan, genius.

Lying fuckwads always have plenty of company.

[billyoc]

5. Yes, I read your shrill justification of the bombings, I even cited it, albeit without the caps.

And I never run from my dishonesty, cali.

[cali]

9. OK, so you're just, um, not all there.

you cited nothing billy. And I couldn't have been clearer. I oppose the continuation of the war in Afghanistan. You are just pulling shit out of dark orifices when you lie and say I support bombing. Disgusting to so blatantly and unashamedly lie.

[billyoc]

15. Will you condemn Obama if he drops another bomb, or remind us of the women and girls again?

[cali]

17. I've already stated that I disagree with his policy to continue the war

I'll condemn that policy down the road.

[tkmorris]

6. I have NEVER seen anyone justify or defend the Taliban on DU

I think you are making an argument against people that don't exist. Why would you do that?

[cali]

7. lots of it going on right now.

it's going on in a current thead in late breaking and two here in gd.

[tkmorris]

16. Went looking, found the LBN thread

There's nothing there. There are people questioning US policies, but there is no one supporting the Taliban.

I think you are looking for ghosts and seeing shadows.

[Smarmie Doofus]

19. Now that's a keeper:

>>>>>I think you are looking for ghosts and seeing shadows.>>>>

[ArchieStone1]

33. me either nt

[ixion]

8. When I say we shouldn't be in Afghanistan, I don't defend the Taliban

I do however, rail against occupying the Graveyard of Empire, because I think it's a bad idea. Oh, and I'm opposed to killing people.

Oh, and like any other group of humans on the planet, they have a right to exist.

[cali]

12. fair enough.

I personally go a little further and remind people that ending the war is very unlikely to save lies. I choose ending the war out of two lousy, stinking options. Both suck for the Afghani people. And particularly for the women in that country.

[ixion]

14. I agree that both options stink

Believe me, I am no fan of the Taliban. Beside treating the people they govern horrendously, they've destroyed relics of our history that can never be replaced... and they take themselves way too seriously.

Unfortunately, the exact same claims can be made about the US. How many wedding parties have ended in a US air raid?

Frankly, I'd like to see ALL extremists of any shade kept away from the helm of ANY government, including our own.

[Fumesucker]

10. To an extent the Taliban ended up in control because what they replaced was *worse*..

By no means do I support the Taliban or condone what they do or stand for.

That being said, the Taliban was actually an improvement over the warlords they replaced, who raped and murdered in wholesale quantities.

I say this as a man with a daughter and two granddaughters for whom I would die before I saw them fall under the rule of the Taliban.

And yes, the Taliban is somewhat an American creation, aren't you proud of what your government has wrought in your name?

How long before the American government stops creating monsters in its efforts to help the multinational corporations and the ultra wealthy maintain their stranglehold on our fair planet?

[cali]

13. To an extent the Taliban is an Islamic creation. To an extent the Taliban

is a creation of the USSR. To an extent the Taliban is a tribal creation. I could go on and on. The confluence of factors that created the Taliban is extremely complex. And the U.S. influence is one- but scarcely the only one.

And no, the Taliban was fucking well NOT an improvement over the warlords. Please read Rashid's book, which btw, was written before 9/11 and thus isn't colored by those events.

[Fumesucker]

21. Without the CIA involvement in Afghanistan the Taliban would most likely never have been..

The US deliberately encouraged, armed and supported fanatic Islamists in Afghanistan, without the billions of dollars and armories of weapons pumped into their organizations they would never have become as powerful as they are now.

Yes there were a lot of influences, but ignoring the major influence of the US is just dishonest.

And warlords are so kind and merciful, Rashid is one person and he has an agenda and a point of view, *everyone* has an agenda and a POV, I do, you do, it's an inescapable part of the human condition.

[cali]

25. And without the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan, etc, etc.

Rashid is hardly alone. Yes, of course he has a pov. he also has damn solid sources and scrupulous research backing him up. And he's hardly some CIA controlled apologist type.

Look, you want to play the silly bushian game of axis of evil but with the U.S. in the starring role, fine. Unfortunately, it's waaay more complex than that. It virtually always is.

[datasuspect]

11. the taliban is reflective of a very powerful movement in modern islam

that seeks to turn back the clock to the middle ages. the appeal of fundamentalist islam speaks to the majority of illiterate adherents trapped in areas with virtually no opportunities, poverty, and mostly tribal social structures. add our invasion of iraq, which has concretized anti-american sentiment among many muslims, what hope can there really be of "rehabilitating" islam so that it can be more palatable to westerners?

shouldn't we just kill all them muslims?

[Smarmie Doofus]

20. Well put; especially this part:

>>>add our invasion of iraq, which has concretized anti-american sentiment among many muslims, >>>>

[zulchzulu]

18. Some people are for defending human rights unless it gets their utopian soft hands dirty

Here are some reasons why you can get beheaded in a Taliban world:

- You dance
- You play music
- You don't believe in a 7th Century bastardized view of Islam
- You're a woman who won't wear a burka
- You're a woman who tries to teach kids how to read
- You won't give up your daughter to a thug who wants to rape her
- You won't give up your daughter to a thug who wants to forcefully marry her against her will
- Your ancestor was involved in a land feud and now you are to blame
- Any other excuses that an illiterate, insane idiot using Islam as an excuse they just made up

If that isn't the clear definition of an asshole...

So let them keep killing, harboring Al Qaeda (who have the same beheading principles and want to kill us) and perhaps even give them taxpayer money so they can train more people to be just like them...

:crazy:

[Fumesucker]

22. The strongest supporters of the Taliban pre 911 were right wingers..

Who hated Communism and would support anyone who was "anti-Communist"

Of course, many of the right wingers have the same agenda for the US as the Taliban have for Afghanistan.

Me, I don't like or support any of them.

[Hannah Bell]

30. rings hollow from the folks who created the taliban.

sure, it's all about protecting women, uh-huh.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. What, another call out against an army of straw posters?

I'm just shocked.

[cali]

24. it's not an army, but it's not straw posters either.

there are a fair number of people here who absolutely do justify or defend the taliban to one degree or another. it seems to be an outgrowth of the reflexive anti-western sentiment that's the lodestar to quite a few DUers.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. bullshit

nobody is justifying or defending the taliban and its hideous policies. There are plenty here, myself included, who are opposing our endless occupation of Afghanistan, and refusing to buy the 'but what about the women' defense for our endless imperial adventure there. You are as usual inventing positions for your fictional opponents.

[old mark]

27. Just as many jerks on the far left as on the far right.

They just tend so spell better and have degrees from better colleges.

Both sides are unthinking and intolerant, and are not happy with facts that collide with their "ideals".

mark

[bigtree]

28. the bottom line for women's groups and activists in Afghanistan

. . . is that any negotiation demand that the parties agree to support the Afghan constitution, at a minimum. I think that's a pretty good standard.

I do think that there's an effort to tag the majority of resisting Afghans as 'Taliban', instead of acknowledging the many factors which go into the support of and identification of some Afghan's resistance with the Taliban.

I don't think this post is doing much more than serving to further the conflation by some here of resisting Afghans with the Taliban organization. I think that the effort to solicit Afghans who will agree to abide by the constitution should be supported by 'progressives'. I certainly don't think we can credibly make that determination ourselves from behind our computer screens.

[Hannah Bell]

29. 'women's rights' = post-modern justification for conquest & war.

yeah, sure, we're there because they won't let women fly kites & go to school.

women were attending university in afghanistan in the 70s. and not in headscarves.

[timtom]

31. I'm sorry, but...

we STILL have no legitimate reason to be in Afghanistan.

Bin Ladin, WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, denied having perpetrated 911.
The U.S. never showed any proof to Afghanistan that bin Ladin had done it.
The invasion was in the works before 911 (as with Iraq).

Thus, the Taliban is not our concern, much as the government of Saudi Arabia is not our concern, or the government of Israel is not our concern, or the government of Zimbabwe is not our concern.

[western mass]

34. I hate the Afghani & the American Taliban equally

That doesn't change the fact that the war in Afghanistan is accomplishing and will accomplish nothing but steal precious resources from the looming disaster at home.

[jody]

35. Have you considered the 43 million Pashtun who live in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region? They're 95%

of the students who are called Taliban.