“Bill would allow non-citizens to vote in local elections” Maine

[jody]

Bill would allow non-citizens to vote in local elections

AUGUSTA -- Lawmakers are preparing to consider a bill that would let communities choose to allow non-U.S. citizens to vote in municipal elections.

Proponents argue that letting non-citizen immigrants vote on local issues would include them in the community, and provide incentive for them to pursue citizenship.

Critics say voting is a right that should be reserved for U.S. citizens, and some suggest that newcomers to the country don't necessarily have the language skills or the knowledge of issues needed to make an informed vote.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Chicago, for instance, allows them to vote in school elections, and six towns in Maryland allow them to vote in all local elections. They can vote in the Massachusetts towns of Cambridge, Amherst and Newton, said Hayduk, and proposals have been made to do the same in Chelsea and Somerville, and likely will resurface in Boston after a 2007 defeat.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

"At the core of it, I think it's a bad idea, because people who are here as residents are not people who have assimilated and become part of the American culture and the American society," said Von Spakovsky, whose parents were both immigrants. "They have made a decision not to become U.S. citizens. That means they have not entered the U.S. social compact."

[county worker]

1. Wait till I get my popcorn please

This should be good:popcorn:

[BuyingThyme]

2. I believe that only non-citizens should be allowed to vote.

[cali]

13. of course you do.

[provis99]

3. some people seem to have missed the whole point of citizenship

the distinguishing mark of difference between a citizen and a non-citizen is that a citizen can vote, while a non-citizen cannot. Ideas like assimilation and civics building are irrelevant. These idiots are missing the entire point of citizenship!!!!:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

55. Only for the past 70+ years.

With the influx of "undesirable" immigrants, the "David Dukes" of the 1920s succeeded in disenfranchising legal residents.

[sam sarrha]

4. being ABLE TO VOTE is already the ONLY LEGAL motivation to vote, do the ReThuglicans really think

mexicans will vote for their Privileged prejudiced old wrinkly white ass's.??!!!

[WillieW]

74. Everyone in this country is an immigrant. They should get of their high horse.

It is just that they ancestors came sooner.

[sam sarrha]

75. the mexican government is sponsoring and funding an invasion. they bus people here to take jobs, 20%

of the population of mexico has been exported here.. it is a foreign governments planed invasion

essentially exporting their poverty to raise the standard of living for the Haves... raising the standard of living 2nd only to France. it is immoral.. it is despicable. they are victims, but they are here illegally.

your logic is bullshit.. it doesn't work the other direction, i am not an immigrant i was born here, they are not migrants,.. they aren't fly'n home in the winter

[WillieW]

5. Why Not?. Legal immigrants pay taxes like everyone else does

[Deja Q]

8. Aren't LEGAL immigrants citizens in the areas they live in?

Therefore it's a non-issue.

LEGAL immigrants should have the right to vote.

ILLEGAL immigrants have the right to remain silent...

[Posteritatis]

14. You can be a legal resident without being a citizen (nt)

[Deja Q]

91. Thank you for the clarification.

[WillieW]

31. I am a legal immigrant - but can't vote. Thanks for the support

[sam sarrha]

76. rethugs will just ship illegals where ever they want to steal another election,

[WillieW]

92. No - even if legal, can't vote It does not matter what municipally you live in

[Deja Q]

6. No thank you. Or, at least, let other countries be the frontrunners for this idea.

[WillieW]

7. The US is always leading the way.

[Deja Q]

9. Yes, I've noticed. Except for "protectionism", but we can't lead everywhere...

[WillieW]

10. We are talking US here?

[WillieW]

12. Some illegals vote anyway - breaking US law.to do so.

[Hello_Kitty]

15. Yes we are.

Now I suppose you'll give us some bullshit example of U.S. "protectionism" like agriculture subsidies while ignoring all the other instances where countries can tariff the shit out of our products while flooding our market with the cheap crap they make in the industries we outsourced to them.

[WillieW]

25. I am not from China or some other country that does that.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. It isn't just China and my post wasn't about you. eom

[WillieW]

70. I was assuming you where responding to me. By the way where did your ancestors come from?

[Luminous Animal]

85. It would be pretty funny

it one of Hello Kitty's ancestors was a legal resident office holder, let alone a legal resident voter.

[WillieW]

90. Yea pretty funny.

[Solon]

44. Other countries already do, some countries in Europe allow noncitizens to vote in local and/or...

provincial elections, other nations around the world do the same. Hell the US, for a long time, in the 19th century, also did the same.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Jesus fuckbeans why don't they just HAND Lou Dobbs the club to beat them with

I have to wonder if the driving force behind this craptastic idea isn't conservatives trying to stir shit up so they can pass even more restrictive voting laws. The justification for all these voter ID laws is the myth that immigrants were voting illegally.

[WillieW]

17. They voted around here illegally. during the last election.

Lou Dobs had nothing to do with that.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. Bullshit. Link me to one substantiated incident. eom

[WillieW]

27. The Washington Post reported that. No longer have the information or a link

[Luminous Animal]

58. No evidence? You are dismissed. (n/t)

[WillieW]

71. yes sir!

[Luminous Animal]

53. We allowed non-citizens to vote for more

years than not in the history of the U.S. It was bigots, in the 1920s, like Lou Dobbs, who led the charge to disenfranchise them.

[Bluebear]

16. Of course, "non-US citizens" will be read as "illegals!!!!1" by those who don't see the diff.

[WillieW]

19. For you info. i am an immigrant and continue to carry the citizenship of my home country

for personal reasons only. I have no advantage or disadantage, pay my taxes like everyone else. Don't misundstand,I love America.

[Hello_Kitty]

21. And that's your choice. If you want to vote you should become a citizen.

[WillieW]

23. I know and I am not complaining, but it would be nice if they changed the law.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Yeah, it'd be nice if I could vote in whatever country I want.

:eyes:

[WillieW]

26. I've lived in the US for over 40 years. Always worked during my time here

and never used the Government for support or ever have been in conflict with the law. I had total of 2 speeding tickets. I also supported many charities. I believe that people after living here for 5 yeas criminal free should be allowed to vote. Just my 5 cents worth.

[Luminous Animal]

54. You could in most western nations...

vote in local elections if you were a legal resident.

[Hello_Kitty]

78. What nations?

According to this thread, you could in America until earlier in the 20th century. But what other countries allowed it?

[Luminous Animal]

83. Follow the link...

There are nations (and towns and cities in the U.S. -horrors!) that, as a legal resident alien, you would be allowed to vote in local elections.

Allowed it at the same time as the U.S. prior to 1920? Who gives a flying fuck? Do your own research. Is your argument that the U.S. was enlightened then among nations but ignorant now?

[Bluebear]

29. For your info, I am supportin' you here

I am not personally offended if a legal immigrant is allowed to vote in a local school board election, for example.

[WillieW]

30. Thank you.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. Tell that to Lou Dobbs and his slavering army of morons.

They won't see the diff.

[WillieW]

33. As long as carry your card, no one can accuse you of being illegal.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

64. LOL. My family is of mexican decent. We're accused of being illegal even though we were all born

here.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

63. Yeah. My husband is a permanent resident and we've been married for seven years.

But Oh Noez! He's an Illegal!

[Posteritatis]

18. Key word there is "let communities choose"

If some town or city wants to allow non-citizens, or residents of the next town over, or cats or whatever to vote in the affairs of that town, and it's not being imposed from above, who am I to criticise?

[liberalhistorian]

32. I'm sorry, but why in the hell should

non-citizens have the privilege of voting? That's nonsense.

[Bluebear]

34. Why is it nonsense? If they are taxpaying legal immigrants...

...why should a community not be able to decide for themselves if the immigrant can vote on town issues?

[WillieW]

36. Thank you. I have been wondering about this for years.

As matter of fact,there was a time when I was undocumented. My green card had expired and my application for renewal took the Depatment of Homeland Security 5 years to send a new card. Believe that. During that time, I felt highly uncomfortable.

[Lance_Boyle]

43. They can become citizens if they want to vote.

Personally, I think it's not worth it to give up citizenship somewhere else just to be able to vote here. Plus there are other, legal, valuable ways for non-citizen residents to contribute to our political process without voting.

[WillieW]

35. Being a productive member of society does not count?

[liberalhistorian]

38. It does count, but if you are not a

CITIZEN, then you shouldn't vote. That's a privilege of citizenship. If you want that privilege, then do the work necessary to become a citizen. Period.

[w0nderer]

37. privilege and duty go together

you are right that voting is a privilege, it should be connected to a responsibility.
such as being allowed to be drafted for the wars that you can, if you vote, control if the country gets into.

as it stands now, a legal immigrant is automatically subject to a potential draft (automatically entered into selective service)
automatically pays tax (no problem there), but has no control on what nitwit or non nitwit as the case may be is in control

a law change that would result in "only a citizen can do military service AND vote", might be a good idea (it'd play havoc with the recruiting numbers though, that's ok)

if i'm to die, i'd like some control over who orders me to my death

5 year legal immigrant not going for citizen

[Hello_Kitty]

39. Privilege and duty indeed go together.

If you are not willing to relinquish the citizenship of your native country it must be because of some privilege entailed in it that you do not get if you were American.

[w0nderer]

40. sorta : added LPR info link on uscis.gov

actually it's the duty part that stops me from becoming a US citizen
not the privilege of being a 'what ever i am' citizen

i swore an oath to defend a certain country against all enemies internal and external if needed (mandatory military service in originating country)

that oath/obligation ends in some years (due to me being too old for military service)
at that point i'll re-evaluate my position

i just think that duties and privileges belong together

i work in this country (privilege) so i pay taxes/ssn/medic (duty)
i live here (privilege) so i should follow local customs and laws(duty)

if i could vote here, it'd be a privilege followed by the duty of:
1 be informed on the issues of the vote
and
2 military service

asking someone to go to war when they have no control over who decides against whom or why is an interesting concept

quite a few countries in fact won't LET immigrants or non citizens into the army due to security issues or because they can't vote

i couldn't vote last election but considered it my privilege and duty to try to round up voters
i do vote in my originating country

this is what the uscis feels a LPR(legal permanent resident) should do
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=fe17e6b0eb13d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

edit: added uscis.gov link

[WillieW]

42. Caught between a rock and a hard place? I volunteered for Obama,but I can't vote

[WillieW]

68. Thanks for posting the uscis link. Refreshing my memory. It has been so long

[w0nderer]

88. welcome

I figured it might get the discussion on 'legal immigrants can't vote' a little more based on what actually IS the law

[WillieW]

41. I have personal reasons I do not care to disclose here.

[Hello_Kitty]

45. I honestly couldn't care less about what your reasons are.

[Solon]

46. why the hostility, do you hold contempt for dual citizens as well?

I'm honestly puzzled here. :shrug:

[Hello_Kitty]

67. No.

And I don't think I'm being hostile. He is perfectly entitled to retain his current citizenship, wherever it is. I'm just not too keen on changing laws to allow non-citizens to vote. That's a slippery slope I don't want to go down.

[Luminous Animal]

81. But your perfectly fine with the fact...

the first 150 years of U.S. history this was not an issue until the racists changed the laws. There's no danger of a slippery slope. The only danger is maintaining the racist bottom we've slid down. The challenge, on this issue anyway, is to climb back to the inclusive standard upon which we were founded.

[WillieW]

65. What is your problem with me? I was not responding to you anway.

[WillieW]

72. Unless you guys are native americans, you came by citizenship by birth.

the US is a nation of Immigrants - don't forget that.

[Luminous Animal]

52. Propaganda straight from The Heritage Foundation (n/t)

[Hello_Kitty]

80. The Heritage Foundation loves immigration (for cheap labor)

So I don't know what the fuck of which you speak.

[Luminous Animal]

82. The Heritage Foundation uses similiar rhetoric

that you do to exclude legal resident voting that was perfectly legal in the U.S. for its first 150 years of existence.

[Luminous Animal]

59. And you call yourself a liberal historian...

I think you need to rethink your career. Non-citizens voted and ran for local office the first 150 years of this nation. The bigots put an end to that in the 1920s in order to disenfranchise "undesirables".

[Luminous Animal]

47. It used to be the norm. Racism changed it.

Most states used to allow non-citizens to vote. With an influx of "undesirable" immigrants (such as, the Chinese in California) these rights were taken away.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Some resources on the 150 year history

of allowing non-citizens to vote:

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=265

Most Americans are unaware that non-citizen voting was widespread in the United States for the first 150 years of its history. From 1776 until 1926, 22 states and federal territories allowed non-citizens to vote in local, state, and even federal elections but gradually repealed this right. The US Constitution gives states and municipalities the right to decide who is eligible to vote.

Non-citizen voting rights, however, were largely repealed due to the anti-immigrant sentiment of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In the Civil War era, Southern states resented immigrants' opposition to slavery. In many states, wartime hysteria and the Red Scare after World War I made Americans want immigrants to "prove" their loyalty before receiving the privilege of voting. And in others - like Texas during the women's suffrage struggle - ending the immigrant vote was a way for political status quo supporters to counteract the broadened electorate that came with the 14th Amendment (voting rights for African-American men) and 19th Amendment (voting rights for women).

This link has the history of immigrant voting rights per state:

http://www.immigrantvoting.org/statehistories/statelist.html

[WillieW]

73. Thank you for this informative post.

[Obamanaut]

48. Dead people have been reported as voting in some elections, so

why not immigrants.

[Luminous Animal]

50. We allowed non-citizens to vote for 150 years...

until the bigots decided to many foreigners were exercising the franchise.

[Luminous Animal]

51. Non-citizens also held public office.

It is disheartening to see "liberals" so ignorant to liberal U.S. history.

[Obamanaut]

56. Did you miss the line that said "why not immigrants?" nt

[Luminous Animal]

57. What does legally allowing legal residents

have to do with the illegal practice of dead people voting?

[Obamanaut]

61. There are at least 5 million former convicted felons (released)

who do not have voting privileges. States vary their requirements to restore voting privileges/rights following release. When is this going to be corrected? They work and pay taxes, send their kids to school, have families and homes. I don't care if people who are here vote, as long as they are here legally. But what about the other mentioned earlier in the paragraph?

The dead people voting was intended to be humorous. Sadly, you didn't pick up on that, and instead began bandying about the "ignorant" word. With that in mind, "to" in post 50 should be "too."

And now, "click"

[Luminous Animal]

62. I have my cranky pants on.

They squish the humor out of me.

Good point about felons. I support organizations that advocate for prisoner voting rights for those both in or out of prison.

[ShadowLiberal]

60. Lets be honest, most people don't have a clue who the heck they're voting for in local elections

I'm a young 20 something person, but I've never known a single person I've seen on the ballot in local elections, it's really just a coin toss when you see several people of the same party running for the same office when it comes to who you vote for. Almost everyone is woefully uninformed about the issues and such in local and state elections.

When I first saw this thread I thought the idea sounded pretty stupid, but then thinking over it some more, I think it actually sounds pretty reasonable. I work with a guy who's a citizen from another country in Europe, but is here on a work visa, and has been for years. He owns a house in the area, and him and his wife even had a kid here who's got dual citizenship (his wife is also here on a work visa). I don't think he or his wife are ever going to become a US citizen, but it seems reasonable to me to let them vote in local elections, since they pay taxes to I mean. I wish the guy and his wife could vote in presidential elections, since they're very big liberals from a very liberal European nation.

[acmavm]

66. Want to vote, become a citizen. Don't want to become a citizen? Then

what the hell are they doing here wanting to vote? It's not too much to ask. If you really want to be part of America, American society, fine. Citizenship is the answer.

[w0nderer]

89. can of worms -- opened

i seem to remember something from the past...
what was it now?
oooh yeah, anyone remember this from the birth of a country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_taxation_without_representation
http://www.virtualology.com/virtualwarmuseum.com/revolutionarywarhall/notaxationwithoutrepresentation.net/

i agree i shouldn't have the privilege to vote federally without being a citizen
i also shouldn't have the duty to do military service/be draftable

it's possible I should have the right to vote locally depending on what it is
if i pay taxes towards it and use it, maybe i should have a right to vote on it or maybe i shouldn't have to pay those taxes?
especially if it is a service i'm not using. (much as i hate the idea of 'pay only for what you use' taxation)

I'd be cool with paying taxes to my originating country ( a LOT higher) and then getting the same service from the US system as my originating country would have provided me, since there I'd have control over what i pay for. (not to mention a better service)

I'd be cool with giving up 15%-20% extra tax money for that.

[Canuckistanian]

69. Who is this "Bill" guy?

He seems to be important.

[Hello_Kitty]

77. Interesting to learn of the history of non-citizens being allowed to vote/hold office here.

I'm wondering, what other countries extend the same franchise to non-citizens. It doesn't surprise me, given America's long history of immigration. But are there other countries who had the same situation?

[Luminous Animal]

79. Many countries do...

http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=265

[Hello_Kitty]

84. Great article, thank you.

I suppose my initial reaction was a bit knee-jerk. Maybe it stems from my experience registering brand-new citizens to vote. Our local Dem party has made it a point to set up booths outside of swearing-in ceremonies. We sign people up (and 99% of them register as Democrats!) and they are so excited to be voting for the first time. I didn't realize that voting hadn't always been tied up with citizenship.

[Luminous Animal]

86. Cool! You are welcome!

I really do appreciate your response.

[ima_sinnic]

87. the idea that citizens somehow have a superior "knowledge of the issues" is ridiculous

about 30% of "real citizens" still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, about the same percentage who think that * was a great president. It is a well-known fact that many, many voters are completely ignorant of the issues and easily fooled by cheezy campaigns like that of Palin. In fact, one of the most infuriating things about a "democracy" is that "the majority rules" and "the majority" all too often comprises complete ignoramuses.

My legal resident husband, when he lived here, was better informed than about a third of the "real citizens."

[WillieW]

93. Me too. If you follow the program "Man on the street" by Leo

most Americans can not answer the simplest of questions. giggle