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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:31 PM
Original message
Please don't cut small pieces off of your children.
Thank you. That is all.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. can't argue with that!
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
2. my daughter agrees...
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. That is beyond disgusting
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. fingernails grow back. n/t
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. So does hair
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. ????
I don't get it.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. I am just adding to your list
of things that can be cut from kids in small pieces and won't harm them in the least :hi:
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Sorry, I'm totally anti-circumcision (as you can see on the other thread).
Just making a little joke.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Didn't she get in a car wreck
and break some of them not long ago?
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yes...
Edited on Thu Mar-26-09 11:45 PM by arcos
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. She looks like a Star Trek character.
I doubt Kirk would tap that.:rofl:
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. I wonder if the Federation still practices circumcision?
I would think not. It's highly illogical.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. The Jaffa on Stargate do. I don't think ST ever touched the subject.
Teal'c tells his son, R'yak that the "knife should be as sharp as possible" for the pre-marriage ritual.

Since the denounced their slaveholders as gods, they're more open to questioning the "old ways", and R'yak decides that this is one ritual that should die with the Go'auld.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. If there are intergalactic STDs, they should...
:hide:
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
62. That shoulder high, arm-crossed pose is probably the ONLY way she can stand.
her nails must drag on the ground if she puts her arms down. ugh.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
46. gee, someone with her priorities straight
NOT

so glad to know some people have the money to pay people to take care of the mundane, annoying everyday tasks like even wiping their own ass so they won't break a nail and can make it into some record book (or does her family support her like a queen? or are those just fake?). I saw the guy from India on Ripley's who had the same problem, whose wife was devoted to doing everything necessary to prevent him from breaking one of his precious nails. Can't you just see marrying someone and being tasked with pampering him so he won't break a disgusting 18" fingernail?
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
100. How does she get dressed every day?!
:wow:
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. How about our pets?
Or other people's children?
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Parents make this descion on behalf of their children, not other people's children
don't care about pets.
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FLyellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Would large pieces be better?
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
9. A circumspect post if I've ever seen one.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Cut it out -nt-
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
66. Time to cut this coversation short. nt
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Neoma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. What about tonsils?
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
94. Actually tonsils aren't removed as often as they used to be
It turns out that they have a purpose, after all this time. Go figure.
Hopefully medicine is getting away from the whole "we don't need that part, just chop it off" mentality.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #94
106. I wish they still did when I was a kid
I had reoccurring throat infections and they never took my tonsils out

I had them taken out as an adult

it was the most horrible experience of my life!
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Darn! 27 days too late!
It healed up fine, and he's making fountains out of it! What a dazzling display!
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Ain't it just the coolest?
Less than a month old and already dazzling his parents. I have two girls and a boy. When my son was born he seemed like a whole different species to me. Not only did he make fountains, he left skid marks in his diaper! Something my girls would never think of doing.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
14. The other side of the argument.
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 12:24 AM by pnwmom
The highest rates of H.I.V. in the U.S. are among African Americans and Hispanics -- the same groups with the lowest circumcision rates.

Are Medicaid rules that disallow payment for circumcision leading to higher rates of HIV among the poor?

(The large-scale WHO studies show that circumcision adds protection beyond that offered by condoms alone. So while there may be differences in condom use among various populations in the U.S., that would not account for all of the difference in HIV rates.)
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. No.
But thanks for your absurd pseudoscientific conjecture.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. An Editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine made this "absurd pseudoscientific
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 12:33 AM by pnwmom
conjecture." Maybe you should keep up on the research.

But of course you know better than the epidemiologists and public health doctors do.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/27/health/27std.html?hpw

SNIP

Asked about the applicability of the African results to men in the United States, the study’s senior author, Dr. Ronald H. Gray, a professor of reproductive epidemiology at Johns Hopkins, said, “There is no reason to believe that this is in any way unique to Africa.”

The study confirms the results of two previous trials in South Africa, and Dr. Gray believes that taken together the studies have significant implications for public health.

“The findings suggest that there are important lifetime health benefits to the procedure,” he said. “I think it’s important that pediatricians consider the lifelong benefits that might accrue from circumcision when they are advising parents on whether the procedure should be performed in baby boys.”

Other experts agreed. Robert C. Bailey, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Illinois, Chicago, who has published widely on the subject, said the American Academy of Pediatrics and other professional associations “are not taking the lead in providing clinicians, nurses and midwives — the people who assist parents in making decisions,” with the information they need. “And so parents are not being fully informed,” he added.

An editorial published with the study said that rates of circumcision in the United States were declining, and that they were lowest among black and Hispanic patients, groups with disproportionately high rates of H.I.V., herpes infection and cervical cancer. There are 16 states in which Medicaid does not pay for routine circumcision, and this may exacerbate the problem among the poor, the editorial said.

SNIP


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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. The other thread had a very good dissection of that study.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5332212&mesg_id=5336085

The test group was hardly random and the methodology was heavily flawed. Still, even if you buy into the results of that B.S. study, it's a big leap of conjecture to get from there to:

"An editorial published with the study said that rates of circumcision in the United States were declining, and that they were lowest among black and Hispanic patients, groups with disproportionately high rates of H.I.V., herpes infection and cervical cancer. There are 16 states in which Medicaid does not pay for routine circumcision, and this may exacerbate the problem among the poor, the editorial said."

That's not science, it was an editorial. It's nothing but conjecture. The correlation doesn't imply a causation, and anyone who believes it does is an anti-scientific nutjob IMO.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. Hmm. Where is the study on infants having unprotected sex in Africa?
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 01:08 AM by Touchdown
I can't seem to find it in those links.

Is it "peer reviewed" and in the NEJM?
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
92. I wonder why there are no responses to this insightful comment n/t
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
53. Wrong place.
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 07:25 AM by mnhtnbb
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
47. Pseudo Science? Who the fuck are you to claim
the studies done that show that circumcision protects against AIDs and STDs, are bogus? It's an insane claim that demands real evidence.

Oh, and though I didn't have my son circucised, I think it's hardly that big a deal. And I'm sick of idiots comparing circucision to fgm.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
67. Insane Evidence here...
In deference to Jack riddler who posted it in another thread.

(from an earlier thread just like this one)

The "cleanliness" propaganda is a perennial in justifying this involuntary mutilation of infants, and it really angers me. Because in my case, and in the case of the majority of American males thus mutilated, the religious mythology played no role. Our parents were duped by the health propaganda.

Want to cut down on infections? Teach males from an early age about how they should keep their penis clean. A few years later, teach them about condoms.

But just as we would not tolerate a health junta that preemptively removed everyone's highly dangerous and apparently useless appendix, or (in some future) that neutralizes the brain sections most likely to cause people to commit violence, so too can it not be justified in ethical or logical terms to practice foreskin amputation as a preventive health measure. This is rightly a question of one's freedom, one's right to maintain one's body as nature bestowed it, and thus the question is legitimately left to young adults to decide.

On the last go-around on DU with the issue of involuntary infant foreskin amputation, there was talk of the study held in by Auvert et al. on South African men who were paid to be the guinea pigs. This study's conclusions that circumcision will serve to prevent AIDS made waves around the world, and were picked up uncritically by prominent cheerleaders like Bill Clinton. However, these conclusions may be deconstructed as wishful at best, merely by reading it carefully.

Here we go:

Randomized, Controlled Intervention Trial of Male Circumcision for Reduction of HIV Infection Risk: The ANRS 1265 Trial

Bertran Auvert1,2,3,4*, Dirk Taljaard5, Emmanuel Lagarde2,4, Joëlle Sobngwi-Tambekou2, Rémi Sitta2,4, Adrian Puren6

1 Hôpital Ambroise-Paré, Assitance Publique—Hôpitaux de Paris, Boulogne, France, 2 INSERM U 687, Saint-Maurice, France, 3 University Versailles Saint-Quentin, Versailles, France, 4 IFR 69, Villejuif, France, 5 Progressus, Johannesburg, South Africa, 6 National Institute for Communicable Disease, Johannesburg, South Africa

Background

Observational studies suggest that male circumcision may provide protection against HIV-1 infection. A randomized, controlled intervention trial was conducted in a general population of South Africa to test this hypothesis.

Methods and Findings

A total of 3,274 uncircumcised men, aged 18–24 y, were randomized to a control or an intervention group with follow-up visits at months 3, 12, and 21. Male circumcision was offered to the intervention group immediately after randomization and to the control group at the end of the follow-up. The grouped censored data were analyzed in intention-to-treat, univariate and multivariate, analyses, using piecewise exponential, proportional hazards models. Rate ratios (RR) of HIV incidence were determined with 95% CI. Protection against HIV infection was calculated as 1 - RR. The trial was stopped at the interim analysis, and the mean (interquartile range) follow-up was 18.1 mo (13.0–21.0) when the data were analyzed. There were 20 HIV infections (incidence rate = 0.85 per 100 person-years) in the intervention group and 49 (2.1 per 100 person-years) in the control group, corresponding to an RR of 0.40 (95% CI: 0.24%–0.68%; p < 0.001). This RR corresponds to a protection of 60% (95% CI: 32%–76%). When controlling for behavioural factors, including sexual behaviour that increased slightly in the intervention group, condom use, and health-seeking behaviour, the protection was of 61% (95% CI: 34%–77%).
Conclusion

Male circumcision provides a degree of protection against acquiring HIV infection, equivalent to what a vaccine of high efficacy would have achieved. Male circumcision may provide an important way of reducing the spread of HIV infection in sub-Saharan Africa. (Preliminary and partial results were presented at the International AIDS Society 2005 Conference, on 26 July 2005, in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.)

Competing Interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.

Academic Editor: Steven Deeks, San Francisco General Hospital, San Francisco, California, United States of America.

Citation: Auvert B, Taljaard D, Lagarde E, Sobngwi-Tambekou J, Sitta R, et al. (2005) Randomized, Controlled Intervention Trial of Male Circumcision for Reduction of HIV Infection Risk: The ANRS 1265 Trial. PLoS Med 2(11): e298 doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298

Received: June 29, 2005; Accepted: September 26, 2005; Published: October 25, 2005

Full article here:

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-...



Emphasis above (bold) mine: Study was suspended at interim stage because the doctors chose to declare victory and offer circumcision to the control group. What's interesting is that in the earlier study by Bailey et al., the difference in infection rates between control and intervention groups tended to converge the longer the study went.

In assessing any such study we must consider both the set-up of the study and the selection process for the control and intervention groups, about which the study presents quite a bit of obfuscation, as we shall see.

The selection mechanisms of the two groups are given their most exhaustive summary in the following flowchart:



The key piece of information otherwise is surely this: "During the study, 20 and 49 participants acquired HIV infection in the intervention and control groups, respectively, corresponding to incidence rates (95% CI) of 0.85 per 100 py (0.55–1.32) and 2.1 per 100 py (1.6–2.8) in the intervention and control groups, respectively."

While the 20 and 49 are presumably hard figures for the numbers who tested HIV+ (what's the false positive rate again?), the 0.85 and 2.1 per annum figures and high-low ranges for the rates are interpretative statistics. 1.34 percent of the “intervention group” ultimately test positive, as opposed to 3 percent of the control group.

So, what do we know about this study, just from what its authors present?

Six authors come together to conduct the study. It required an unspecified number of staff, including other doctors, nurses and lab personnel. It ran for two years. That's substantial funding and time, so let's not pretend there was no pressure felt to come up with results that were conclusive.

They recruited 3,483 South African men. "The recruitment of participants took place in the general population from July 2002 to February 2004." Recruitment within an impoverished population was at least partly induced by payment: "The participants received a total of 300 South African Rand as compensation (1 South African Rand ~ 0.12 Euro)." The doctors randomized the men into two groups. They excluded 146 from the study who tested HIV+ (although this group still came in for the followups). Thus they created a control group of 1598 and an intervention group of 1493.

What came next was surely the most dramatic moment in the study. To the men in the "intervention group," the doctors offered the option of having the foreskin amputated. (Thus this is hardly a double-blind study!) The study notes that participants were "informed that the impact of MC on the acquisition of sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV, is not known." But we can imagine how many of them believed it must be a good bet, otherwise one might logically think the study would not be held.

On the other hand, one may legitimately doubt the men were told the simple fact that the foreskin carries one-half of the skin surface and one-half of all the nerve endings in the penis.

What other persuasive means may have been applied is unclear, but 1339 men accepted the procedure. (Ninety-three did not, but seem to still be counted in the "intervention group," and their number rises to 96 at a later stage; this probably has to do with some of the missing coming back, rather than magical foreskin regeneration. No accounting is given for why the control and “intervention” groups seem to each be contaminated with men who should be placed in the other group.)

This is a serious commitment on the part of the experimenters. They haven't just located groups of amputated and unamputated; they have in fact carried out a massive amputation action just to get their experiment going. Implicitly, the doctors already believe in the high likelihood of the benefits of circumcision, or are themselves likely to pick up such a belief in the process of carrying out an act of social engineering on a mass scale. If they don't find some benefit to circumcision, then they may have persuaded 1339 men to have their foreskins cut off at great pain and for no benefit.

Furthermore, the write-up gives little consideration to the psychological impact that the amputation may have had on the recipients. Obviously they would have felt pain for a few days and then the strange sensation of not having the foreskin would persist for weeks or months. Might this experience have affected their behavior, including their sexual behavior, compared to the control group, including in subtle ways that aren't measured by survey-type questions?

Participants were asked about their sexual behaviors at the follow-ups, but the study fails to provide breakdowns of the hard figures by group (e.g., for incidence categorized by the number of sexual partners in control and intervention groups), except for a vague statement that sexual activity was slightly higher in the intervention group. "When controlling for behavioural factors, including sexual behaviour that increased slightly in the intervention group, condom use, and health-seeking behaviour, the protection was of 61% (95% CI: 34%–77%)."

Accordingly the table compiling information on sexual and other behaviors fails to break down figures into control and "intervention" groups:

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=slid...

Right at the bottom of this chart, however, we have the interesting information that 21 out of the 69 HIV+ cases found in both groups (30 percent!) "attended a clinic for a health problem with the genitals" in the 12 months before the point at which they were found to be HIV+, as opposed to only 276 out of 4575 (6%) of those who remained negative.

Now this is a study of the effects of a procedure conducted on the genitals. Furthermore, having a different infection or other "problem with the genitals" is known as a huge factor in HIV transmission, as the study itself notes. So you would think the study has an interest in knowing how the genital procedure it is testing works out in preventing a "problem with the genitals," as a likely contributing factor to preventing HIV infection.

Given the poverty and relatively low health-coverage in South Africa, we can also assume the number of those who had a problem but did not visit a clinic for it was higher. This could be the most important factor in explaining the incidence of HIV+ among men in the test, regardless of circumcision, and for this reason I can't think of a more important stat to see broken down by control and "intervention" groups. This breakdown is missing, however.

Various numbers of men go missing from both groups at the follow-ups, anywhere from 40 to more than 100 at each stage, and 16 are found to have died (the causes are unspecified and said to be unrelated to HIV or to "MC," although we are told the missing were generally visited at home to inquire as to why they weren't showing up).

"Even though some participants were lost during the follow-up, and the loss to follow-up rate was greater than the event rate, the impact of missing participants on the overall results of this study is likely to be small..." (emphasis mine). Honestly, do you expect them to ever say otherwise? They continue: "not only because the loss to follow-up was small for a cohort study conducted in a general population, but also because those who were late for at least one follow-up visit were protected by MC just as the other participants. The reason for this loss to follow-up was a result of participants moving from the area or being unreachable, and not a result of HIV infection." (In the case of unreachable, how does one know the true reason?!)

Finally, by the time of the follow-up at 21 months, the doctors had found a total of 20 men testing HIV+ positive at one of the follow-ups in the "intervention group," and 49 men in the control group. Once again, it is unclear to me how those who were circumcised in the control group and those who remained uncurcumcised in the "intervention group" were accounted for in all this - maybe I'm missing something and other readers can figure that out.

Rather than continuing the study past the two-year window, these results were judged as so dramatic that victory could be declared immediately. So dramatic, in fact, that it was apparently thought unethical not to try to persuade the control group to also have their foreskins amputated right away: "The Data and Safety Monitoring Board advised the investigators to interrupt the trial and offer circumcision to the control group, who were then asked to come to the investigation centre, where MC was advised and proposed."

The doctors presumably started writing up new grant applications not long after. (I wonder how their funding was looking at the point of suspension? Releasing the accounting books of funded studies should be a requirement for peer review, it occurs to me.)

Interesting is the discussion at the end of how amputation might help reduce infection rates:

"The reasons for this protective effect of MC on HIV acquisition have to be found elsewhere, and several direct or indirect factors may explain this <25>. Direct factors may be keratinization of the glans when not protected by the foreskin, short drying after sexual contact, reducing the life expectancy of HIV on the penis after sexual contact with an HIV-positive partner, reduction of the total surface of the skin of the penis, and reduction of target cells, which are numerous on the foreskin <26>."

Reading that, one wonders, why the rush to amputate? Why was there was no study proposed first to determine the benefits of washing and drying the foreskin soon after sex, which should achieve almost all of these same effects, other than "keratinization of the glans"? (*see below)

"Indirect factors may be a reduction in acquisition of other STIs, which in turn will reduce the acquisition of HIV."

This makes the failure to break down by control and intervention group those HIV+ participants who visited a clinic due to problems with their genitals all the more curious.

"Our study does not allow for identification of the mechanism(s) of the protective effect of MC on HIV acquisition."

But despite this admission of so much that is still unknown, there should be no doubt that the study has discovered something important and urgent, as the sentence immediately following argues:

"The first and obvious consequence of this study is that MC should be recognized as an important means to reduce the risk of males becoming infected by HIV. As shown by our study, MC is useful and feasible even among sexually experienced men living in an area with high HIV prevalence."

Furthermore, those reporting on the study (as in the cheerleading newspaper articles) seriously raise the idea that every uncurcumcised male in the world should have their foreskin amputated to reduce the spread of HIV, even in countries like the United States where the incidence of male-to-female/female-to-male transmission (i.e. predominantly vaginal, as opposed to anal penetration) approaches zero.

Now it is true that HIV transmission in Africa seems to more frequently result from male-female sex than it does in the West, based on the far less complete numbers available for African populations, implying a higher rate of vaginal transmission in Africa.

Therefore I'm curious why the doctors who ran this study and their funders chose to center on the relative lower rates of male genital mutilation in Africa than in the West as an important factor, rather than first considering the higher rates of female genital mutilation - which is known to increase susceptibility to infections? South Africa has banned FGM but does not report on possible rates of the practice, which are no doubt lower than in Muslim African countries.

Thus, finally, the choice of question in the first place reproduces the biases of Western culture and Western religions with regard to male as opposed to female genital mutilation. The crime of female genital mutilation is rightly considered barbaric but generally ignored; even as concerns about male foreskin amputation are dismissed because it is "hygienic" (regardless of evidence) and "traditional." This is obvious in the language employed by the study. Foreskin amputation - which would be an accurate clinical term - is reduced not just to male circumcision but "MC," providing an abbreviation that renders the operation generic, neutral, "scientific."

And an act of mass social engineering involving the irreversible removal of part of one's body (and all based on a hypothesis) is covered by the term, "intervention group" with its implications that something was wrong with having a foreskin, before the Western-funded team arrived to intervene.

Do you know of a study to determine a possible link between female genital mutilation and HIV incidence? In a brief search I was unable to find anything large-scale and Western-funded, like the Auvert study in South Africa, but a few surveys indicate it needs to be taken very seriously. This is where the money would have been better spent!

Check out this article:

http://allafrica.com/stories/200711160852.html

Tanzania: The Link Between Female Genital Mutilation And HIV Transmission

Arusha Times (Arusha)

ANALYSIS
17 November 2007
Posted to the web 16 November 2007

Mary Katherine Keown
Arusha

Researchers and activists are linking the feminization of HIV-AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa with another major health affliction for women in the region: female genital mutilation.

Sporadic research data over the past 10 years has correlated dirty cutting equipment, hemorrhages requiring blood transfusions, and injurious sexual intercourse causing vaginal tearing and lesions with rising rates of HIV transmission among women in countries where female genital mutilation (FGM) is still widely practiced.

"Because FGM is coupled with the loss of blood and use is often made of one instrument for a number of operations, the risk of HIV-AIDS transmission is increased by the practice," the New York-based United Nations Population Fund says on its website. "Also, due to damage to the female sexual organs, sexual intercourse can result in lacerations of tissues, which greatly increases risk of transmission. The same is true for childbirth and subsequent loss of blood."

Other organizations, such as the London-based International Community of Women Living With HIV-AIDS and the Washington-based Global Health Council, make similar assertions on the immediate risks of HIV transmission and anti-FGM activists in the region express confidence in the link.

A representative from the Network against Female Genital Mutilation in Moshi believes there is a link between FGM and HIV transmission, and a delegate from the National Union of Djiboutian Women - who asked to remain anonymous - says she believes FGM is the single largest contributing factor to HIV infection in that country, with risks that are immediate, as well as long-term.

Meanwhile, a cross-section of data drawn from a 2006 United Nations report on the global AIDS epidemic, for instance, shows that in several countries in Africa where FGM is common-including Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania and Djibouti-between 55 and 60 per cent of HIV-infected individuals are female.



---

* "keratinization of the glans" - also a euphemism, albeit in clinical terms, referring to the tendency of protein to build up over the scar tissue after amputation, further dulling sensation.

---

To those fighting the widespread practice of female genital mutilation:

Please don't succumb to divide and conquer. You are absolutely right if you say the clitoral and labial amputations perpetrated on females are incomparably more damaging than the amputation of the male foreskin. It's one of the worst horrors on this planet. But it should not be used as a counterpoint in the propganda to trivialize the practice of foreskin amputation.

.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7519/781

In the Auvert study doctors tracked black men while they became infected with HIV. Apparently, the participants were not given or allowed to use condoms because this would have disturbed the experiment. This is reminiscent of the infamous Tuske-gee syphilis study, in which newly discovered penicillin was withheld so that the study could continue.4

---

Here's a devastating observation:

http://forum.fathermag.com/circ/106/forum/messages/2552...

Bailey was responding to concerns that the circumcised men would not use condoms. In Bailey´s letter, he shares that the intervention group (the circumcised men) reported condom use up from 22% to 36% over the baseline (control) group.(§) That is the exact increase to gain a 61% protective factor. This indicates that the men´s circumcisions played no part in the lower infection rate but instead, the condoms were the protective factor. In the later studies that reported 48% and 52% protective factors, it would indicate that circumcision actually increased the men´s susceptibility to HIV/AIDS.

Additionally, the circumcised group reported that they had reduced their number of sexual partners. The percentage of men with more than two sexual partners decreased from 42% to 33%. This would put them at less risk of contracting HIV/AIDS.

This new information turns the studies completely upside down and appear to strongly suggest that the circumcised men were substantially more likely to contract HIV/AIDS.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #16
51. Do You Know What That Word Means?
It appears not.
GAC
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Thank you.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. You might be interested in this, if you haven't already seen it:
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Thanks.
I'm for circumcision.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Why? Simply based on this one study?
Because the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Medical Association do not recommend circumcision. And that African study was highly questionable and in my opinion downright unethical in its methodology.

Please read this post before making up your mind
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5332212&mesg_id=5336085
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. It wasn't just one African study, it was two large scale studies involving
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 01:03 AM by pnwmom
several thousand participants each.

And there have been numerous other studies over the years showing particular benefits, including a reduction in urinary tract infections (which can lead to kidney disease) in babies under a year old.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has revised its opinion several times over the last couple of decades, in response to research. It is quite possible they will do so again. They currently have a neutral opinion on circumcision. I agree with them that research can support parents making either decision. But if the Medicaid rules are preventing poor parents from having the same option as others, leading to higher rates of HIV and other diseases, that isn't fair.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. STDs are prevented by CONDOMS, not circumcision.
But I guess the anti-condom crowd has to come up with some other cacamamie STD prevention schemes that don't involve birth control. And the parents who had their sons circumcised are always searching for some after-the-fact justification for their actions.

By the way, when I googled "does circumcision prevent urinary tract infections" the very first result debunked it...
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/

"But if the Medicaid rules are preventing poor parents from having the same option as others, leading to higher rates of HIV and other diseases, that isn't fair."

If that were true I might agree but there's not one shred of evidence that it's the case.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. That is your opinion, and others dispute it on a scientific basis.
And the New England Journal of Medicine editorialist disagrees with your assertion that there isn't "one shred of evidence" that the Medicaid rules are leading to higher rates of HIV and other diseases among the poor.

From the article I already posted:

"An editorial published with the study said that rates of circumcision in the United States were declining, and that they were lowest among black and Hispanic patients, groups with disproportionately high rates of H.I.V., herpes infection and cervical cancer. There are 16 states in which Medicaid does not pay for routine circumcision, and this may exacerbate the problem among the poor, the editorial said."
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. This is the sort of deal that leads to "health disparities"
A broad concept that's applicable in a surprising number of ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_disparities

These in turn are tied in with social determinates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_determinants_of_health
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Interesting. Thanks. n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. More than welcome.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. If there was a pill that was advertised to reduce STD rates..
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 02:08 AM by girl gone mad
by 25% if you took it before having sex, it would be considered ineffective and probably taken off of the market. I think very few reasonable people would choose the 25% effective STD pill over a 99% effective condom.

Just saying..
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. It's not an either/or situation.
The WHO, after conducting its large scale studies, is recommending that circumcision be ADDED to safe sex practices in order to further reduce the rate of HIV transmission. The studies showed an additional 60% reduction of HIV transmission over those who practiced safe sex alone.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. You're describing a survey,
not a scientific study. Knowledge of how often the participants practice safe sex requires self-reporting. The percentage who acquire STDs while claiming to always use condoms should be low, making the number statistically insignificant. Men who had undergone circumcision would be more likely to be concerned about practicing safe sex (presumably the reason they agreed to the procedure), which would significantly skew the results.

I don't see how you can draw any serious conclusions from such a survey, and why would you apply them to a population on another continent with a vastly different disease profile?
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. No, I'm not. The studies in Africa were prospective studies -- not surveys --
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 05:34 AM by pnwmom
and involved teaching both groups of subjects, the controls and the newly circumcised, safe sex practices, as well as supplying them with condoms. Because of the high rates of HIV in Africa, and the free availability of the condoms, both groups of subjects were strongly motivated to use them.

Yes, we live on a different continent but we have one thing in common with Africa. HIV rates are higher here among population groups that aren't circumcised. The African studies were designed to control for other factors, including condom use and religious and sexual practices, that could account for different rates of transmission. Thus, they could also hold meaning for other countries with multiple populations.

Why are you commenting on the applicability of the World Health Organization studies when you clearly haven't even read them?
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #39
58. I don't think that's what it shows.
It showed a 60% reduction among a population that does not practice safe sex.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
72. Are you so sure about this study? Care to make it interesting?
I will buy you a ticket to South Africa, and all you have to do in return is have unprotected sex with circumcised males only. I'd say 4 would be good. After all there is very little risk of catching it from a circumcised male, right?
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. We are a medical
family. When our grandsons were born there was no question whether they would be circumcised or not. If nothing else - hygiene.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Hygiene? What? To embarrassed to tell him to play with his cock in the shower?
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 01:55 PM by Touchdown
A medical family that forgot their oath. First, do no harm.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. It is a wild reason, isn't it? Used to be parents were advised to forcibly retract infant's foreskin
foreskins to clean under them. Of course this caused skin tears, which caused infections and adhesions. So, by forcibly retracting them to "clean", they were causing problems. Now, you clean what you can, and when they get old enough, if you have showers or bath, boys usually can handle it themselves. (pun intended)
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. What harm? Please tell.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Amputation of a healthy body part.
Licenses have been revoked for performing appendectomies on healthy appendixes. Josef Mengele is a war criminal because of his bizarre experiments on children. Dr. Edgar Shoen, well known circumcision cheerleader writes creepy poetry about chopping off foreskins. This quack is also trying to get the AAP to reinstate compulsory, universal circumcision to all newborns. I imagine he wants to videotape them for future whacking material as well.
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
114. Has nothing to do with circumcision.
:) Most Europeans are not circumcised, so by your logic, HIV should be absolutely rampant across the pond.

HIV is contracted by those who do not wear condoms. Period.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
26. Then what the fuck am I going to serve at this dinner party!?
Do you know how expensive hors d'oeurves are these days?!
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
116. "Never buy gribenes from a moyle, too chewy."
One of the best movie quotes ever. ;)
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. If an uncircumcised cock gives its owner more pleasure than a circumcised one I'm REALLY pissed off.
Cuz my circumcised cock gives me so much pleasure that at 47 I still can't keep my hands off of it, nor can I keep my mind off of convincing someone else to put THEIR hands ON it. If there were any more pleasure to be gained from my cock, I'd probably never get out of bed. What would be the point? That's how much I love my cock!

Besides, it's got this really cool racing stripe... (the circumcision police would more likely call it a scar, but I'm the glass half-full guy) Not to mention that the bulge in my Levi's has this cool groove thing going on... (I've been told it's hard to replicate that with a sock)

I'm betting that it took a hand-truck to carry away the "small" piece they cut off of my cock while I was too young to remember.

Just wondering here, what started all the cock-talk today? Cuz it sure has been fun to watch! And me, a straight man even! Ask me about my cock! I'll gladly share!

How about YOUR cock? Don't you love it? Does it have a racing stripe like MY cock does? Or does it have a turtle-neck?

Love your cock. It's the only one you have. Love it whether it's a turtle or crew neck. Be like me, and love it as often as you can.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. haha, amen brother... amen. n/t
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. I have both.
I've got a scar, but I call it Wainscoting not racing stripe. I also have a turtle neck since I've stretched mine enough to have a little coverage too.:D

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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. According to my buddy who got it cut as an adult....it did give more pleasure when it was intact.
Edited on Fri Mar-27-09 03:31 AM by Evoman
For him and his gal.

He is sorry that he had to have it done, but it was necessary for medical reasons.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
55. Maybe that's why the Europeans insist on having 2 months of vacation a year.
:shrug:
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
45. Time to change the name of the board to Circumcision Underground yet?
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. What next? A demand for a Scrotum Forum?
Some guys are upset their parents had them circumcised. I get that. I don't get why they're grown and still wailing about it. The essence of being a real grown up is accepting one's parents as people who didn't measure every act they made, and shouldn't be blamed for unhappiness one has as an adult.

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TWiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 04:46 AM
Response to Original message
48. Please don't have thoughts like that.
If you do, then contact a shrink quick.

Thank you.
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mnhtnbb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
54. We didn't. Twice. 1986 and 1990.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
56. Twin boys born two months ago. I didn't.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
70. awwwwwwwwwwwwww eom
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
57. I don't think medical science supports your position.
My son was circumcised and I do not regret having had it done one bit. He's just fine with it too as an adult. In fact, I would feel negligent as a parent if I had NOT had it done. It was done in a teaching hospital in New York City. My OB was a professor there and he did the circumcision since we are not Jewish.

I suspect that there was more than just the religious thing attached to circumcision for Jewish males, that the ancient Hebrews thought it was a helpful thing to do, healthwise.

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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
84. Here is what medical science said circumcision cures/prevents...
As well as a few findings against it.

1832 Nocturnal Emissions
1845 Masturbation
1855 Syphilis
1865 Epilepsy
1870 Proof that circumcision cures epilepsy
1870 Spinal Paralysis
1873 Bed Wetting
1875 Curvature of the spine, Paralysis of the bladder, and clubfoot
1879 Abdominal Neuralgia
1881 Unspecified "eye problems" due to masturbation
1886 Crossed Eyes
1888 Circ as punishment for masturbating
1890 Blindness, Deafness, Dumbness
1894 Keeping blacks from raping whites
1894 Urinary and Rectal Incontinence
1900 Discourage Sexual Immorality
1914 Tuberculosis
1915 Clitoral Hood is the source of neuroses, female circumcision is recommended (Yes. This is the USA)
1918 Female Circ will curb Masturbation

1926 Penile Cancer
1930 Claim of Epilepsy cure from a circumcision (notice the 65 year gap between claim and supposed proof?)
1942 Prostate Cancer
1949 Venereal Disease and Cancer of the Tongue
1951 Male circumcision prevents Cervical Cancer
1954 Cervical Cancer again
1058 "the same reasons that apply for the circumcision of males are generally valid when considered for the female." CF McDonald
1959 Making Clitoris easier for husband to find

1966 Masters & Johnson claim no difference in sensitivity between intact and severed penises. No proof given.
1969 Nervousness, and of course masturbation (Still with the masturbation and we're in Viet Nam by now)
1971 Rectal Cancer & Bladder Cancer
1973 Carcinoma

1975 AAP declares circumcision has no medical indications, and does not recommend it
1976 Benjamin Spock: "I strongly recommend leaving the foreskin alone. Parents should insist on convincing reasons for circumcision — and there are no convincing reasons that I know of."

1985 Urinary Tract Infection
1986 AIDS
1988 Group B Streptococcal Disease
1989 AAP Reverses circumcision policy, and recommends it when Dr Edgar Schoen (known circumcisionist) presides over board.
1991 Schoen tries and fails to get European countries to circumcise en masse
1991 For sand in soldier's foreskins (Desert Storm time)
1997 Schoen once again tries and fails to chop off european dicks

1996 JR Taylor finds that the average amount of removed foreskin is nearly half of penile skin.
1997 Janice Lender discovers that circumcision without anesthesia is traumatic.
1999 JR Taylor: foreskin "... a primary erogenous tissue necessary for normal sexual function."

1999 AAP after 40 years of research, reverses policy again.."potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision... are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision." Hygiene "there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimum penile hygiene." STDs "behavioral factors appear to be far more important than circumcision status." Cancer "in a developed country such as the United States, penile cancer is a rare disease and the risk of penile cancer developing in an uncircumcised man, although increased compared with a circumcised man, is low." UTIs "breastfeeding was shown to have a threefold protective effect on the incidence of UTI in a sample of uncircumcised infants. However, breastfeeding status has not been evaluated systematically in studies assessing UTI and circumcision status." Ethics "is not essential to the child's current well-being"

2003 Edgar Schoen tries to pressure AAP to reverse it's policy his way, claiming it prevents AIDS.

2005 HIV rates are lower in females who have been FGM'd
2007 The infamous Bailey/Auvert study ... touting circumcision as a 'vaccine' that prevents HIV infection.

2007 Langerhans Cells in the foreskin are found to to be a natural barrier to HIV
2007 M Sorrels releases study that finds the foreskin the most sensitive art of the penis and the glans the least.

And now for something truly goulish...
2002 W.K. Nahm extends the storage life of specialized cell cultures derived from "freshly harvested neonatal foreskin tissue." (Note: Since the 1980s, some amputated infant foreskins have been sold without the knowledge of the parents to biomedical companies for research and even use in commercial cosmetic products such as anti-wrinkle creams.)


http://www.geocities.com/painfulquestioning/timeline

"Historically, circumcision has been touted to cure whatever disease at the time was on the minds of the population." --Steve Scott
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. We're a little more enlightened than that, I think, unless you feel we have made no
progress since those days.

Oh well, I have several Jewish doctors. I think I'll ask them what they think next time I get a chance. They read all the literature that is out there and I'm sure they'll have a well reasoned answer. Actually, that'll be interesting...
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
59. Some of these babies are going to grow into very elderly men who can't care for themselves some day
Someone else will have to take care of certain unmentionable duties associated with cleanliness that the elderly person will no longer be able to accomplish themselves for one reason or another.

Who among us would like that job?

Don
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. you're right. we should just chop the whole thing off
Let them piss out of a stump. No maintenance would be required, right?
:sarcasm:
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
80. Who do you plan on keeping it clean for you when you can't do it no more?
Your kids? Your grandchildren maybe?

I bet they are really looking forward to doing that for you.

LOL.

Don


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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. Oh' get over your squeamishness.
Brushing his dentures is more disgusting than his dick.:eyes:

Great justification there, Sparky, Cut his dick up as a baby so you don't have to clean it when he's 90.:crazy:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. So you have a colostomy also? Easier to clean than an asshole, you know.
LOL back at you.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #80
93. If I feel guilty enough about this prospect, I'll have it done now that I'm an informed adult.
I'm glad it's up to me. And I'm glad I'll have anesthesia if I chose.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #93
119. also, I might add, now that my foreskin has separated from my glans, painlessly
In the post-natal version of the procedure, the foreskin is not yet separated from the glans, and need to be torn away using a metal tool. This causes bleeding, scarring, and considerable pain.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
71. Working with the elderly, it's not that bad.
Washing an old guy's penis isn't that bad. About the same as washing an old gal's genitals.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. I'd rather clean an old man's parts than what I had to do.
In my 20s I worked in a nursing home. Yes, there were men who needed foreskin cleaning, but it wasn't nearly as disgusting as an old woman with cervical scarring. She bled all day long, and the smell was the worst I have ever endured. But that's not all. If you call right now, I'l tell you about the coagulated blood inside her vagina that I had to fish out. I was 23 years old.

And people her wonder why I'm fucked in the head.:crazy:
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
60. You seem to be on some kind of crusade.
From an objective position, if that is possible, it appears that you have chosen to disregard two rather impressive studies.

Minorities might view your position as a clandestine attempt to kill off minorities such as was done in the Tuskegee study of untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male during a clinical study, conducted between 1932 and 1972 in Tuskegee, Alabama by the U.S. Public Health Service.

No I am not accusing you of having ulterior motives so don't jump to that conclusion. I think caution in regard to this matter should be the more prudent course. What are the supposed benefits in relation to any negative affects on this little supposed improvement of God's handiwork?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
64. please don't tell other people how to live their lives.
thank you. that is all.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. yeah sorry for raising an objection to cosmetic surgery on babies.
and for the record i wasn't telling anyone how to do anything. I was merely requesting.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. You just don't know. He doesn't want you to
dictate terms on how he should live his life, as he's dictating terms on his son's body parts, and dictating how his son is to live his life.
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. good point. n/t
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #73
101. i don't have any children. and i'm an atheist...but some people have a covenant with their god...
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 05:26 PM by dysfunctional press
and how nice of you to spend some time making bullshit assumptions about me...:hi: i appreciate the effort, if nothing else.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #101
109. A plea is not an order. He's telling nobody what to do here.
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 06:49 PM by Touchdown
Talk about bullshit assumptions. Make a covenant with that, Pal!

EDIT: OP is a he, not a she... now back to my bullshit assumptions. :dunce::rofl:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
102. for some people it a whole 'covenant with their god' kind of thing...
and the guys don't seem to mind.
what'cha gonna do? :shrug:
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
78. religion, more often than not
reduces the logic and functionality of everything it touches.

in this case, literally.

it is my understanding that when the practice was started it WAS merely a symbolic clipping of the very tip of the foreskin, not a wholesale removal of the entire foreskin. (that DOESN'T make it acceptable.)

i believe in evolution, and the penis evolved the way it did for a reason. as a matter of function, more is advantageous. cleanliness is a matter of a few seconds in the shower.

the skin, also, has a remarkable ability to stretch. if it is tight, it can be stretched manually. it doesn't require "ripping" the foreskin. a little tightness doesn't automatically require total amputation of the entire foreskin.

most circumcisions are done because daddy is. in some instances no choice was given by the physician.

the fact that some seem fine without a foreskin, doesn't make it preferable, justifying removing the option of choice by those affected. later, if they want, they can choose the procedure themselves.

but that would defeat the logic of the procedure, because practically no one would choose that option (except the rare instance where it COULD be necessary. there are always exceptions to everything). once it was the standard, no one would be "different".

as far as aesthetics, google labia, then hit images (warning, extreme graphic images of female genitalia).

talk about an occasional need for circumcision...

there's not telling WHAT lurks in those folds.... (and i am NOT talking about the traditional female genital mutilation that occurs primarily in africa.)

therefore, ALL should be "reduced" to a mere mention of lips. it IS so much more attractive.

:sarcasm:

PLEASE note sarcasm smiley for female circumcision comments...
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Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
79. I think my cock looks great trimmed but thanks for your concern. n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Sanctified Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I think I would get an infraction and a stern warning if I did that. n/t
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Then a link, perhaps?
:evilgrin:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #79
96. I'm reminded of the joke with the punch line; "Stop parting your hair in the middle
it makes your nose look too big"
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
83. Too late, and my very vocal grown sons haven't complained one bit.
lol!
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Tel them it wasn't necessary and see how they react.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #85
98. It was necessary. They know they are Jews.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. If my kid decides he wants to identify as a Jew, he'll be a Jew.
The fact that he has a foreskin is irrelevant.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. It is relevant. Period. nt
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. And that's your take on the matter. Good for you.
Funny thing, though, we don't all live inside your head.

Believe it or not.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #98
107. Then you should tell these people
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. Anyone can create a website. Under contact us, no phone number or address..just email.
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 06:40 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
It can be an organization of one or two or three people.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. got to be more that 2 or 3. There's more english speaking countries than that.
JAC, Jews Against Circumcision, is a diverse group of Jews from every english-speaking country on the planet. We range in observance from Secular Jews to Orthodox. We even have some Rabbis in our group. We also consist of people from every socio-economic class and education level.

We have come to realize that mutilating a male's genitalia in the name of religion is not acceptable. We are not superstitious and uneducated people anymore. No loving God would demand this. It is ridiculous to think so.


They've been on radio and TV, which is how I heard of them.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. Correct. They may be very small.
But if a small number makes them not worth listening to, then democracy, philosophy, debate, and day-dreaming doesn't work.

Maybe you can, but I can't live in a world like that. Everybody has something to say, no matter how lone and small they are.

Limbaugh? He had his say! :rofl:
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Incitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
88. You're not the boss of me
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adamuu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Fight... for your right... to cut pieces off your children
(that have sensory nerves, and do not grow back)
I might add, often without anesthesia, and with an undeveloped nervous system incapable of mitigating pain.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
95. In my experience, preaching at people about ANYTHING is counter-productive 99.999% of the time.
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 05:02 PM by Warren DeMontague
Unless the goal is to piss said people off, and make them more obstinate about the thing you're preaching at them for.

I am reminded of the Zen Parable of the goose in the bottle; how do you get the goose out of the bottle without breaking the bottle?

You don't. You wait for the goose to get itself out.

For the record, my wife (who is Jewish) and I did NOT circumcise our son.
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Johnboi70 Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
97. More things considered...
Infant male circumcision spread in North America as a status symbol. Being circumcised meant that you were born in a hospital. It was originally introduced as a hygiene measure by the same generation of doctors that created heroine as a cure for morphine addiction. This practice, in its own cultural context, is unjustifiable.

Also, if anyone is interested, the effects of un-anesthetized surgery on an infant are pretty extreme...
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
104. then what should people do when their kid's fingernails get too long for them to function normally?
Edited on Sat Mar-28-09 05:31 PM by dysfunctional press
:shrug:
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
111. What if they've been really really naughty?
I mean, look, you have to draw the line somewhere.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
112. Apparently people around here don't know about condoms...
which cut down the risk of AIDS by what, 97%? So saying that circumcision cuts down the risk of getting AIDS as the argument for the pro-circumcision sort is plain bullshit.

Want to prevent AIDS? Put on a fucking condom. Don't go hacking off a piece of an infant's penis.
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. Pretty much, that's proper logic.
:)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
likesmountains 52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
118. Hopefully most parents put more thought into the decision than
just taking a suggestion from a discussion board post...
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