I am having a very hard time feeling sorry for the people who were scammed by Madoff

[DainBramaged]

a very hard time. These were (from what I've seen) the very wealthy in our society, and I know there were exceptions, like the woman who gave him a million, got $100K each year for 10 years and is pissed because she wants her 'original' investment back. And probably a bunch of common folk. But for the most part, these are people who think we should be doing menial jobs for them, and wouldn't give a shit if we could make the mortgage payment or not, and they have enough money to give their extra money to this fraud.

I am sure there are many here who feel as I do, and I'm sure I'll get lectured too.

[BOSSHOG]

1. I agree in one sense

I know that there is only one money manager for the financial portfolio of my wife and me. That would be ME. I do all the eyeballing of our money, where it is, how its doing, how we are spending it. And hopefully that's a lesson learned here. We "lost" some money in the past 12 months in the stock market but I continue to manage it. I didn't want to move it out of the market just yet.

However, I'm glad Madoff is going away most likely for life.

[roguevalley]

26. there are scads of people and organizations that did not know their

money got siphoned off into Madoff projects. Their managers invested all over including him. They had no idea. this is more complex than it seems. I also don't think charities should be chastised. They had good causes. It wasn't like they were putting money into their own pockets. THey help a lot of people. Elie Weisel didn't deserve this at all.

[Booster]

33. When Enron and Worldcom went bellyup, I lost $200,000 in

my 401K. We could not blame the managers of our 401K's because if they hadn't invested in these two giants, both of which were making money hand over fist, the people would have been all over them saying they didn't know what they were doing because those stocks were skyrocketing. That's this is called a scam, and the very best and most intelligent can be scammed when they are being lied to. The very rich shouldn't be "scammed" anymore than the poorest among us, and I'm glad Madeoff is going to jail for the rest of his miserable life - I want his wife to go to jail also.

[roguevalley]

37. I am so sorry about your losses. I lost 56K in 2001 when bush talked

the country into recession. :( I feel your pain, though only about one fourth of it. Hugs.

[Booster]

39. Thanks for the hugs, but I'm actually ok financially. I have a

good pension and ss, but I'm really worried about future retirees because I'm not sure they will have either one - I may not have ss for the rest of my life either, but I do believe my pension is secure. My point was it hurts to lose a large amount of money not matter how righ you are and some of the people in this scam had every last cent invested in Madeoff's scam so they lost everything. If they had a million and lost all of it, I feel sorry for them; we all should.

[roguevalley]

42. agreed. i am especially upset by old people losing things because

their options are fewer.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Not entirely

Not to lecture you, but you're ignoring the many philanthropic organizations and people who invested money they intended for philanthropy who lost with Madoff. The most notable example is that of Elie Wiesel, who's foundation lost almost all its money. I believe he used that to help fund cultural exchange programs and the like. In fact, so many Jewish philanthropic organizations lost money with Madoff's scam the entire field of Jewish philanthropy is in crisis mode at the moment. So I do feel bad for those people/groups.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lob1]

3. They're not going to sentence Madoff until June.

Why are they waiting nearly 3 months? Sentencing is usually closer to the conviction date that that. I have no proof, but I have a feeling they're going to let him off lightly. We'll see in June.

[HughBeaumont]

8. I'm SO not getting the leniency re: his freedom.

Put it this way: how much time would we serve if we stole 500 dollars from a store? How economically and financially ruined would we be for life if we had that wet carpet on OUR backs?

The fact that this guy is still relatively free and reportedly able to keep some of his fortune rather than having it seized completely after admittedly committing what is so far the biggest scam of this century (next to just about the entire Bewsh presidency) sickens me. Republican presidencies really DID set a precedent for going easy on financial piracy and general criminal activity among the wealthy. It seems they really DO play by a different set of rules than we do.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. What is "Bewsh?"

Is it this: An exclamitory remark made by chavers to convery their dominance amongst themselves. (from the Urban Dictionary)?

On edit: Never mind. Seems this is your way of spelling "Bush," like others spell it "Boosh" or B*sh."

[lob1]

36. I agree with you.

Madoff should go to jail for the rest of his life, and they should take everything he owns. I'm just afraid that is not going to happen.

[varkam]

46. It's not unusual.

Sentencing is usually at least a month away from a plea, but three isn't uncommon. Besides, he's cooling his heels in jail now.

[Stephanie]

4. Here they are >

Excellent article:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/04/madoff200904?printable=true¤tPage=all

[madrchsod]

5. the problem with this criminal is that he took...

pensions ,foundations,and other groups funds that provided public good. hell, he ripped off the simon wiesentha center and his sister.

where did all the money go?

[Turbineguy]

6. So some people deserve to get robbed

where others don't.

People who should have done their DD and did not. Those who did their DD, did not invest.

[DemocracyInaction]

7. Madoff Clients now want government to bail them out

That's been the latest news. I disagree since everyone lost a lot of money in this crisis; and, therefore, unless everyone has their money restored by the government there can be no picking this group out as the exception. Also, they didn't cry or ask "what's going on here" when they were making scads of money. That's their responsibility if they seek to invest in that crap game called Wall Street. Just like the banks who ran to the government when "capitalism" wasn't fun anymore, they think they, too, can run. But there is something else you need to know:

CNBC confirmed that there was also Mafia money involved. Now it is going to be real interesting if this group of investors who were, I believe, all Jewish will get a government bailout since they are a powerful lobby group on Capitol Hill. Also, I always wondered if any of the congress are in the back pocket of the Mafia. So, it will be real interesting to see if there is a bailout.

[DainBramaged]

14. That's one point that pisses me off, they may get a 'tax break' from this too

for their 'losses' and I live paycheck to paycheck.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

9. Apparently in your universe

it's okay to steal from people who are well off.

It is a crime to steal. Period. Even if it is from people who earn or have a lot of money.

Some of the people who were ripped off lost their life savings. Not really all that nice.

[DainBramaged]

17. Apparently in YOUR Universe, you read into what I wrote whatever you want

meh.

[Hannah Bell]

50. It was a hedge fund, & you couldn't even get in unless you had millions.

I, Joe Peon, know better than to put all my money in one place, & I, Joe Peon, know you don't get the kind of returns Madoff got for years unless something's shady.

So boo-hoo, cry me a river, they can live on Social Security & food stamps with the "stupid" peons.

Why should private millionaire investors be bailed out by the feds? The argument on hedge funds was, the investors were so "sophisticated" regulation wasn't necessary.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. Many non-profit organizations. I feel bad for anybody that has been a victim of fraud.

[girl gone mad]

38. I feel bad for the charitable organizations,

and especially for those who depend on them.

At the same time, I question why any charity would be putting money intended to help the needy into a hedge fund. Anyone who invests in these funds is required by law to sign documents that say they can afford to lose all of the money. Maybe these charities were getting bad advice from financial planners. In any case, I think it's time to look into reforming the system. No organization that keeps 95%+ of its money locked up in the markets should be able to call itself a "charity".

[Hannah Bell]

49. yes - especially *all* the money. smells funny.

[mike_c]

11. mostly I agree with you....

A major segment of Madoff's business was composed of folks who'd have been at the head of the guillotine line during the French revolution, if that analogy makes any sense. I just can't whip up much sympathy for them.

As others have pointed out, Madoff hurt some folks whose pain makes more of a difference to the rest of us-- philanthropic foundations and *relatively* small-time investors. But while I'm sorry that anyone had their money stolen-- and that's ultimately what Madoff did-- it's also true that even those folks gave their money to Madoff freely because they hoped to make something for nothing. They hoped that just having money would make them richer, and they didn't do their homework well enough to realize that if a business arrangement looks too good to be true, it's probably a lie.

That's just another component of greed, IMO-- the notion that capital investment is the source of wealth, that having money begets more money. So in the end, although I'm sure some of the bilked investors were good folks whose efforts in many respects benefited society, I'm just not comfortable with the underlying premise that wealth flows naturally to the investor class, no matter how wonderful some members of that class might be.

[ramapo]

12. Too good to be true...and it was. Too bad.

My understanding is that Madoff did not send out the standard brokerage statement detailing buys, sells, income, etc. Instead, clients received a very basic summary which nearly always showed an increase in account value.

It is difficult for me to feel bad for somebody who turns over a lot of money, be it one million or ten million dollars, and does not understand how and where their money is invested.

I think Madoff had this special reputation that his clients for some reason felt they could trust him to do what was best. Also, these clients felt so fortunate that they had their money with a financial wizard who somehow performed magic no matter what was going on in the world that they didn't dare question his results. I think there was a feeling of too bad for those poor schlubs whose portfolios went down some months and didn't show huge gains every quarter, we've got our very special magician here.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. What Ramapo Said

If you think you're going to make giagantic returns fast, because some "guy" told you so, you're a sucker.

I've got money. I wouldn't have bought his line.
GAC

[baldguy]

13. There were some greedy bastards involved, but by and large these were good people.

With their wealth, they endowed schools, hospitals, community groups & synagogues. They did their best to help the people around them.

Madoff took advantage of these people & he was allowed to do so by the non-existent oversight of the Bush Regime.

[stray cat]

15. Those college kids on scholarships - who would feel sorry for them?

since schools lost alot of their endowment they use to fund scholarships. Also, charities suffer.

[mucifer]

18. and sick people with no money who use some of the hospitals that lost madoff funding.

[Hannah Bell]

51. wouldn't need "charity" if the super-rich didn't steal the cash.

[BuyingThyme]

16. The big players probably don't feel all that sorry for themselves, either.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dkofos]

20. After watching the 60 minutes piece, I got the impression that

a lot of the people involved knew it was a scam, got in, got out
and never said a word. Not that it would have done any good with the crooks
at the SEC.

[LeftishBrit]

21. There were a huge range of victims

Ranging from people whom it's a bit hard to feel sorry for, as basically they will now have to live on 49 million instead of 50 million, to people who will be very seriously damaged. He didn't just scam individual investors; he scammed charities - and that's likely to hurt a lot of people!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. I feel the same about GM stockholders.

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

52. i don't, since a high percent of GM stockholders are ordinary working people,

not "sophisticated" millionaire investors & connected charities with access to expensive financial advice. Here, i'll dispense some for free: don't put all the foundation's principal in one place, how f--g hard is that.

[Fumesucker]

23. A full wallet often complains more loudly than an empty belly..

I'm not sure where I heard this quote, but I think it apt in this case.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. They're all crime victims

Some were rich, some were well off, some were very poor people.

"Very poor people?" you ask?

Yeah. A lot of non-profits and charities were invested with him. They, like individuals, had every earthly dollar they owned in his funds. They wanted, safe, steady returns. He gave that and had a reputation for having given that for years and years. Now the people served by those charities are shit out of luck.

Also, many union pension funds were there. The Baltimore police union, as but one example.

I am ALL FOR going after the rich, greedy fucks who got us where we are and who got there on your back and mine.

But a crime victim is a crime victim.

Madoff was a criminal.

[jmg257]

25. Must not have been you then, huh? Otherwise you might feel different.

A lack of caring about others' misfortunes is understandable. But still isn't very respectable.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. so if someone isnt exactly like you they dont deserve compassion?

[Raine]

30. Theft is theft

Madoff took what didn't belong to him. I'm sure the victims (and that's what they are) don't care about pity because your sympathy or lack off it doesn't change the fact that they were robbed.

[T Wolf]

31. Many of his "victims" knew they were in a shady deal, with the promised returns far

outpacing any realistic returns. They just accepted that they were in on something that the peons didn't know about or were not rich enough to take advantage of.

The old adage - if it sounds too good...

[Howardx]

32. exactly

not too hard to see.

[Pithlet]

60. Exactly. They're victims to be pitied. When the rest of us make mistakes, it's "bad choices"

And we are not to be pitied. For instance, the people who are losing their homes are losers who deserve what they're getting. But the Maddof investers are poor little victims. That's what really gets me. It's not that I have no sympathy. I just really hate the double standard.

[Warpy]

35. Madoff could charm the birdies out of the trees

and I doubt all the people he fleeced were greedballs. Most of them just thought he was totally trustworthy and parked their nest eggs with him while they lived on the income. It never dawned on them that the returns were just a little on the too good to be true side, probably because no one ever told them what realistic returns were like.

Most of them were greedballs who feel entitled, however. A lot of them knew the returns were unrealistic and suspected he was doing something illegal. They thought he might be laundering drug money or doing naked shorting, though, not that he was running a huge Ponzi scheme right out in the open.

Still, it's hard not to feel compassion for old folks who lost everything, even if they're not the type of folks I'd invite to dinner. It's far too late for any of them to start over and the landing will be an extremely hard one. They'll have to salvage whatever they can from the sale of depressed real estate and use it to supplement social security. Most of them will spend the rest of their lives living on the edge.

They deserve the same compassion as any other elderly person living on the edge. That's going to be most of us unless this country cleans the filth out of its financial system and sorts its priorities out.

[Uzybone]

40. You are not the only one

I'm sorry they were duped, but not too sorry.

[sohndrsmith]

41. I had the same feeling - and I felt really guilty about it and tried to ignore it

because it didn't seem very fair or gracious or honorable. But I still have a hint of it.

I finally thought about it and realized I have no way of knowing or judging how everyone he stole from has been affected. Yes, some of his clients lost a lot and it likely won't affect their lives in any tangible way (other than being wrong, undeserved and a crime. He stole their stuff. Their money. That's wrong). But I don't know what each of them is dealing with - there may be many people who he's totally wiped out, who ARE now facing foreclosures, losing everything... luxurious as that everything may have been. If he stole their money, some of them may not be able to continue their lavish lifestyles. So since I can't know the details, I certainly don't think it's reasonable to assume that every single one of his victims is "fine" or won't suffer.

But yes, my initial response was something like yours - because I do make a distinction between the importance of loss based - not on it's numerical or financial value - but the affect it has on the person losing it.

Last year I could not afford to keep up my car insurance. It wasn't much money, but I didn't have it and couldn't manage to get it. The loss was devastating because I had to let it lapse, and since my car is old and hasn't been driven for a long time - the car is no longer usable. It's laughable to think I could actually afford the much greater expense of another car (with insurance), and I certainly can't replace my car for the amount I needed to pay to keep my insurance... Having the money a few months later didn't help, either--almost hurt more. So for me, not being able to make that relatively small payment was a HUGE loss.

Similarly, any of Madoff's victims who are as affected (or far worse, which is probably the case for many) - as I was by my insignificant, by comparison, problem - my heart goes out to them. It's not the amount, it's the impact. Do I feel as sorry for those who may have lost millions, even billions, but it adversely affect their lives, security, assets, activities or life (other than really annoying them or having to take a year to rebuild rather than a few months)? No. Is that wrong? Maybe, but I don't think so. I take no delight in such people losing vast amounts, but no - I don't feel AS sorry for those who's lives are demolished, even if they lost much less. But that's just me.

It IS truly painful and devastating when you lose things that severely change your life in ways that can't be resolved or replaced - be it two hundred or two million...

[coalition_unwilling]

45. A very thoughtful response, possibly the

best I've read on this thread and topic.

[Generator]

43. Well I was gonna start a thread

asking for Du'ers who are Maddoff victims. Not so many heh? But sure could find some with foreclosures or crappy mortgages.

Any who-I do feel sorry for the old folks and some that worked for it. I know the charities are hit hard and that is worst of all.

But there is something in the attitude that says-hey yeah I DESERVE to make 45% return on my money. Is that a kind of greedy, delusional thinking or not? Why do they DESERVE these profits and how do they make sense? Well they didn't deserve them and they didn't make sense. Of course being from the lower classes myself, I could have never trusted those kinds of numbers. They pure foolishness is annoying. Have they no responsibility? If you give all your money to a con-aren't you part of it? No due diligence. It's hard to have sympathy for that. They weren't people with no pots to piss in, they had resources. And they wanted to believe. I guess I don't like the believers. Like religion and politics, most of the time it's all at LEAST some scam.

[serrano2008]

44. I'm sure when you lose your life savings someday there will be plenty of people

who have a hard time feeling sorry for you also.

[DainBramaged]

47. Thanks for your lesson in political piousness, I'll pass.....

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

48. Not to worry, he already got his damn bailout. n/t

[mmonk]

53. And some of them lost their life savings. As much as some may share

your lack of empathy, a crime was committed.

[DainBramaged]

54. Maybe some of you should look further than condemn my lack of 'empathy'

The list of 'investors' contains virtually ZERO institutions or charitable funds, only the very wealthy who were looking for 'magic'.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/business/14nocera.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&hp

[spanone]

55. for the most part these are people who think we should be doing menial jobs for them

just a hunch? or is there proof for this statement?

know any of these investors personally?


that's a mighty broad brush you paint with......

[DainBramaged]

57. I use 4" camel hair brushes as a matter of fact.......

:eyes:

[sendero]

56. There is never something for nothing..

... anyone who couldn't see there was something fishy about this should not be investing a dime anywhere.

I hate to see anyone get cheated but this is how greed is rewarded, Madoff did nothing more than most con men, he used the greed of his victims as a weapon against them.

[Retired AF Dem]

58. I feel better now

One less person I have to feel sorry for if you are ever a victim of crime.

[DainBramaged]

59. Thanks, glad you take the innertubes so personally

and I thought jackasses only survived in Missouri......

[Kansas Wyatt]

61. Greed - Both Madoff's & His Victims' GREED

I give the very same response that his victims would give if a factory closed and the workers lost everything they had, including their lives, etc. etc. If they even bothered to think about it.

'How sad. I'm sure they'll manage. Hopefully they'll make better choices next time.'

Most people cannot even imagine the lives these people led, and it is through NO fault of their own either. They wanted even more, and they got bit hard.

[cbc5g]

62. I thought this too until...

I found out that a lot of the victims were elderly people who had their money put into investments by people they trusted, not Madoff directly. But these investors indeed did go through Madoff. And I don't expect elderly people to be on top of their game in tracking down frauds.

[DainBramaged]

63. Yes, but they are not at fault, I agree, I posted the list

there are MANY VERY wealthy and influential people who invested with him, not satisfied with single digit returns.

[MasonJar]

64. For one, he took the Elie Weisel Foundation money down with him.

He is scum who duped his own friends and other Jewish individuals and organizations. For what? He could have been successful by being what he pretended to be. Are some people just crooks for the fun of it?

[slackmaster]

65. They're no different than people who got scammed into sub-prime mortgages they couldn't afford

Your comment is classist.