Rationally, if you can, show me the error of my ways: Teacher merit pay and standardized testing

[Stinky The Clown]

I think these are two of the worst education ideas ever.

[polichick]

1. Doesn't sound much like, um, change. :/

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Seems like ......

.... next day same as the last.

[Occam Bandage]

49. Teacher merit pay is certainly change.

Not all change is good.

[yurbud]

54. much like the testing craze--take the patient's temperature over and over but

never give the doctor medicine or enough staff to treat any of the patients.

Then when some of them die, fire him.

[polichick]

57. An old idea.

[bbinacan]

3. I'll take an uninformed stab at it.

Standardized tests so the system isn't rigged to show good scores. Since merit pay is based on student performance, some may won't to give easy tests.

[SoCalDem]

15. Standardized tests are not bad, in themselves..We had them every April

but they were to gauge what we knew.. The teachers never "taught us" only what would be ON the tests..

We had tests at the end of every section of our work, and at midterm and again at the end of school..

School just IS about testing.. it always has been, and kids know it, BUT these days, teachers are forced to make sure their kids do great, or their jobs are on the line..

This methodology would have value, if the teachers could choose their students :evilgrin:, but they have to take what they get, and a few recalcitrant troublemakers who insist on failing, can drag the scores down for the whole group....and it's not necessarily the teacher's "fault"..

I'd be more worried about teachers quitting, out of frustration, than to have a vendetta to "get the "bad" teachers"...

There's almost too much to teach kids these days.

In elementary school, it's easier because they are clean slates, eager to learn, but by the time they get to secondary school, so many other things have intruded into their lives.

[amandabeech]

43. I have two friends, both experienced well-regarded teachers, who have wanted to retire

very badly since their first year in the NCLB regime. Mind you, the state that they teach in already had standardized tests, but NCLB was even worse. Their beef is that all they do is teach to the test and that there is no room for creativity anywhere in the curriculum.

Now that the stock market has tanked (again, since they were teaching in 2000-2001), they'll keep at it, however unhappy they may be because their individual retirement accounts are what they were 10 years ago at most. They'll do their best for their students, but it won't be as good as it was when they had more freedom.

[quaker bill]

56. you can, in fact, throw money at this problem

Any serious analysis of student performance conducted at regional and national levels results in two findings:

Two variables predict the overwhelming portion of variance in student outcomes:

Capitation (dollars spent per student)

and

Socioeconomic status of the parents



All the rest of the variables in: curriculum, teacher certififcations and training, management, charters, vouchers, length of the day, time of the day... are marginal and explain very little of the variance. To get around this massive statistical problem and promote boutique (smaller and cheaper) "reforms" folks go with anectdotal case studies that do not control for regional variables, quite intentionally. It is very poor science, but a type of poor science much loved and promoted by the interests that sell training and new curricula to school boards.

The actual solution to the problem is quite simple, but it is massive. Pay teachers enough to attract and retain the best and brightest, fully fund the schools, work on the economic empowerment of the working poor. If mom or dad are not off working the second job so the kids can eat, they might be around to check on how the homework is coming along.

[Viking12]

59. I've read that elsewhere. Would you happen to have any citations to these studies?

It seems I always entering these discussions and it certainly would be nice to have that information on hand.

[Nite Owl]

4. You way has no error!

This is bad.

[madfloridian]

5. I am not happy with Obama's plans on education.

Charter schools, merit pay, test taking robots....I foresee the end of public schools in this country under a Democratic administration.

It has been the goal for years of the centrist Democrats. It's a pity.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I agree. These are, in my view, two horrible ideas.

[Oregone]

7. No one is getting rid of public schools anytime soon

Its just going to keep getting shittier though.

[iamthebandfanman]

30. it seems to have been a goal

by lots of people besides people on the left.

i will never stop supporting public education.


all these 'solutions' scape goat the real problems and tells parents 'if you dont like it, go to a private school so you can get a good education'

[tbyg52]

8. I have no problem with *some* standardized testing, if the test is well constructed, which is hard,

maybe impossible, to do.

Edited to add: And if that test is not the *only* way students are evaluated.

What has interested me about the current test mania, at least in Texas, is that none of the existing tests was good enough for "them," so they had to come up with their own - which has gone through numerous metamorphoses and made some companies a grunch of money.

Teacher merit pay generally degenerates into who is buddies with whom, from what I've seen.

The only possible way I could see merit pay as fair is if there were *good* tests at every level, and teachers were rated on the progress of only their own students, while they were in that teacher's class. I don't think that's going to happen.

In Texas we get budget money (not directly to the teacher) based on who passes the Advanced Placement test. But that's not where the incentive's *really* needed, IMHO - gotta catch 'em before first grade (and keep on 'em), or it just gets worse and worse.

[Oregone]

16. An overall problem is that teachers stop educating, and instead, start teaching kids how to test

I graduated before a lot of this testing hysteria went into place, but there were running pilot programs. The teachers most definitely altered their curriculum. And now, they have drastically diverted resources to teaching test taking (passing standardized tests is required to graduate in certain states now). Walk into most schools in some states and theyll have big displays up showing which kids have passed which tests. Its very strange.

Some of my students were in this one English class...they didn't have to do any work or study at all because everyone who passed the SIM test (I think that was it) would automatically pass the class. The tests become integrated into the curriculum, and now have begun to take over.

[tbyg52]

60. >>theyll have big displays up showing which kids have passed which tests.

That's horrible. At least they don't allow that in Texas, to name one of the few good things about the state. (I'm not doing a blanket Texas-bash - I'm stating a fact.)

[iamthebandfanman]

31. in my day (only 9 years ago)

we spent a good 2-3 months preparing for and then taking a test.

so thats 2-3 months of half days devoted to practice testing, and then about a full week(or two depending on your grade level) of actually taking the test.


standardized tests neither prove nor disprove any ones education level.

at any rate, my school always did well on the tests and therefor received lots of money... unfortunately it was mostly spent on sports programs.

[Grateful for Hope]

9. My daughter

is a teacher in a disadvantaged district in the NYC school system. I am going to ask her how she feels about these ideas.

I do know this about her: She has consistently gone above and beyond for her students. She has often told me that there are teachers in her school who do the bare minimum, and, because of length of tenure, they consistently make as much or more than she does. She has said that it would be nice to be paid on the basis of effort expended (and results achieved).

Not sure what she will say, but, I suspect that she will be in favor of teacher merit pay (sure hope I am not misrepresenting her).

[tbyg52]

10. I'm all for it, in theory. The kicker is who decides, and how. nt

[Grateful for Hope]

22. This is definitely a consideration. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

13. I'm sure you're daughter is exactly as you describe her ..... but the fact is, to say she is .....

...... "better" than some of her co-workers is very subjective. And therein lies the inherent unfairness.

At the other end of the spectrum is the cold, hard, mathematically sound, test score standard. Which causes people to game the system to get high test scores, the kids be damned.

I don't have an answer, but I KNOW tests and merit pay are not it.

[XemaSab]

18. It begs the question of what is "better"

The hardass who starts every morning with the multiplication tables and a long round of sentence diagramming, the teacher who assigns 12 hours of homework and multiple ugly essays every night and who spends the day half asleep in the classroom, or the teacher who reads aloud and sings songs and who tries to inspire a love of learning and culture?

In college two of the best teachers I had were polar opposites in terms of style. Dr. H would present really DENSE lectures where you were scribbling franticly in your notebook for an hour, and he'd give TONS of reading and quizzes every week. His tests were UGLY and a lot of people went home crying.

Dr. B's lectures were airy, vague, and heavy on the anecdotes. He'd put up overhead graphs and just let the class reflect on them without really explaining them. His tests were very subjective, and as long as you got the general idea he'd give you a passing grade. Trying to take notes in his class was somewhat of a joke, because so much of the lecture was just crazy stories about driving around and getting drunk in the desert.

Dr. H was a Mormon and Dr. B was a drunk and they didn't get along with each other so much. :P

But man, I learned so much from those guys... Dr. H was a genius, he really loved his subject and he demanded a LOT of his students. I didn't really appreciate Dr. B as a teacher until I went on a roadtrip through the southwest, and much to my surprise I could explain and discuss most of the geological features along the way! Apparently all those long anecdotes had a purpose. :D

Similarly, in high school English, Mr. H was a crazy dude who did stuff like come to school in costume, but he instilled in me an appreciation of Hawthorne, whereas Mrs. O was of the diagramming-sentences-and-writing-LONG-essays school of teaching, and they were both great teachers.

Or my old 4th grade teacher, where friday morning we ran around in the park and friday afternoon we just read stories, and we were required to write a story a week for his class?

But my point is, how do you decide who the good teachers are? :shrug:

[Stinky The Clown]

27. Your point makes my point ......

Any merit pay scheme has to be fair. There are as many teaching styles as there are teachers. We all may know a good one when we see one and a bad one when we see one, but I defy anyone to write an **objective** standard not based on student performance and overcomes the well known disparity between rich and poor neighborhoods and school systems.

[XemaSab]

36. But even student performance...

I never learned my multiplication table, but I have a lifelong love of reading and culture.

Which is more important for society?

[Grateful for Hope]

21. Standardized tests really can't be gamed

If they are constructed correctly.

My background is in measurement and evaluation (Masters), and, at one time, I worked for the Psychological Corporation (they published at the time I worked for them intelligence tests and academic standardized tests).

The company was a very stringently academic company.

Not sure what you are really objecting to, but, yes, teachers can teach with a standardized test as an end-result. However, if standardized tests are what they are supposed to be, there really is no way to "game" them.

As an aside, I spent about 9 mos studying for some certifications in my field recently. I purchased online tests, etc. I did very well on the online tests.

When I went to the test center to take the exams I needed to take, I was struck by how difficult the exams were. I passed, but but not by nearly as much as my test exams indicated.

These tests are standardized.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. The tests are "gamed" when sound teaching is replaced by teaching the test

It isn't the tests themselves, it is the system in which they are used. If one is incetivised only to have classes that get good test scores, that is what one will work toward in one's daily life ..... children be damned. Teaching anything not on the test is counterproductive .... things like love of art and intellectual curiosity.

[demmiblue]

19. Perhaps those type of teachers will also have mysteriously increased

student test scores.

Also, can you imagine what it would be like to be held accountable for student achievement when these students have previously been taught by these types of teachers... especially in early elementary when learning literacy skills is crucial for continued academic success?

[Grateful for Hope]

20. I think I can

Personally, I would like to see teachers like my daughter rewarded. I think accountability is a very valid means of measurement.

[demmiblue]

24. There is only so much teachers can be held accountable for

It would not be fair to her in the example that I illustrated, because there is only so much she would be able to do no matter how hard she worked. Then throw in psychosocial factors, lack of parental support, overcrowded classrooms, lack of funding, etc.

I think teacher pay should be increased substantially (especially starting salaries), while also introducing tougher standards for college education/certification. Teaching really needs to be given the professional recognition it deserves.

I have yet to meet a teacher that believes that merit pay is a good idea.

Good luck to your daughter!

[Grateful for Hope]

26. Like I said in my original post

I may be horribly misrepresenting her.

When I can speak with her, I will share what she has to say.

[whoneedstickets]

11. Good teachers will flock to schools with high income kids...

..who generally perform well on standardized tests so they can earn more performance money. This will have the impact of exaggerating the already pronounced disparity between the quality of teachers in high-income school districts and poor ones.

[woo me with science]

35. Not necessarily.

It depends how effectiveness is measured. If it is based on improvement rather than absolute scores, then teachers with students who are already performing below expectations may actually have a better chance of showing a significant increase in performance. Research shows that just providing certain experiences to underperforming students, such as consistent "priming" in a subject area, can yield dramatic results, particularly in comparison to the score changes of students who already have access to such experiences and are starting at a higher baseline.

[Spike89]

12. Terms fine, Implementation is key

Merit pay makes sense, but the question is who judges the merits? Standardized tests aren't bad, but the way we currently use the results from them is almost criminal. Combining the two and misusing both is a horrible idea!

Almost no one denies that teaching in a poor district with disengaged, or absent parents isn't the same as teaching in an affluent district with active parents. Which teacher should get a merit raise...the one that takes a class that has been historically scoring 60% on a standardized test and moves them to 70%, or the one that takes a class from 75% to 74%? In most cases, the plans I've seen would reward the second teacher over the first.

Standardized tests have well documented biases and problems, and worse, are not suitable as the sole assessment of a child's progress. Teaching to the test is what happens when a teacher is graded only on how students do on the standardized tests. Creating a generation of superb test takers is NOT, and must not be the goal of education. We need creative, clear thinking students that can solve more than multiple-choice problems and use tools other than #2 pencils.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Everyone loves the concepts. NO ONE knows how to do it fairly ......

.... and for that reason alone, they need to be taken off the agenda.

[Spike89]

17. Not sure about that

Linking them is wrong, and I agree that must be taken off the agenda, I'd suggest high-stakes testing should drop from the lexicon, but standardized testing is a legitimate (if limited) assessment tool.

I can agree that in this climate, merit pay is too closely linked to test score performance and needs to wait until later to be considered.

All that said, we have so many school systems/districts/regions that I think Federal policies must be flexible and I'd like to see more money supporting some experiments in areas rather than one size fits everyone mandates.

[TahitiNut]

23. It's a smoke screen that obscures the objective of having a public education SYSTEM.

By framing this as an argument about teachers and their abilities, it PRESUMES that the 'problem' is (at least in large part) teachers. What this ignores is the fact that every student has MANY teachers as he/she navigates their way through the public schools. Every student, however, has far fewer parents -- but we're not testing parents, are we? Of course not. We can't get our jollies by firing parents.

By forming this UTOPIAN vision of the 'perfect teacher' we're engaging in a common form of blame-shifting that evades any problem-solving process whatsoever. In other words, it's a COP-OUT. (That 60s term is a well-grounded one, based in that era's better comprehension of dealing with problems.) Virtually ANYONE can create a Potemkin School ... and 'prove' they have the handle on what to do. Yes ... and it'll involve privatization, prayer, discarding the 'unteachables' (i.e. handicapped and behaviorally at-risk) and, even more, PAYING MORE per student. (That latter 'feature' is rarely examined in the pink glow of utopian hallucinting.)

The framing MUST refocus on the very strengths and advantages of a public school SYSTEM itself. That's the pooling of resources and coordinated efforts and community involvement. As we slice and dice that system, creating carved-out 'alternatives' and other innovative ways of crippling the system by denying funding and other resources, we are participating in the creation of the 'problem.'

The metrics for success are clear and have been clear for a long time. Student-to-teacher ratio, funding-per-student, keeping the number of empty stomachs low, and using the students themselves as 'resources.' When schools become huge, anonymizing factories and get run with POLITICAL agendas, they fail.


But trying to voice this is like pissing into the wind. STUPID people will continue to be anointed as experts in education. Strange. :eyes:

[erinlough]

33. If I could recommend this post I would...

I love Obama, but all this plan tells me is that he doesn't have a plan for education. Sorry, but this is not going to improve eduction generally for the majority of children. I predict a change in this plan. Listening to Arne Duncan, I am not impressed either.

What are my credentials? 35 years in special education........guess I am out of consideration for a bonus due to the level of kids I teach....oh well.

[TahitiNut]

38. Thanks. I'm flattered..

There's plenty I'd change, I guess. I don't believe, for example, that a degree in Education should be needed to teach, especially in grades 9-12. Too many good people are denied admission to "the club" when the credentials don't make sense. While I do agree that Education training itself is more important than subject matter training in the lower grades, I'd far rather see folks with Math degrees teach Math, English degrees teach English ... and so on. We'd be better off if they merely obtained CEUs or a few regular credit hours in Education topics specific to their needs. Then again, I don't think a 'teacher' should be a Plug-n-Play commodity to be assigned wherever an administrator had a whim ... and I think a lot of the requisites are designed to make administration easy rather than teaching good. Clearly as well, teaching kids with special needs can also require extraordinary training - if we don't think all kids have special needs.

While we're at it, the security needs of schools should come from a public safety budget, and NOT taken from education funds. Likewise, subsidized meal programs should come from community assistance funds and NOT education funds. Far too much burden is placed on education funding that's not, strictly speaking, educational ... and merely increases the disparity between affluent and impoverished communities.

[ColbertWatcher]

45. I vote for this comment to be its own thread. n/t

[TahitiNut]

46. Arigato

[ColbertWatcher]

48. De nada. Will you be posting it soon? Because I am itching to kick and rec it.

Damnit.

[TahitiNut]

58. OK ... with some hesitancy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5231367&mesg_id=5231367

[Belial]

25. Exactly.. Why should we reward ANYONE for doing a better job..

The reason they have jobs is to teach.. so if they don't teach.. just fire them.. oops.. forgot.. really hard to fire a bad teacher.. we just promote them. :banghead:

[iamthebandfanman]

28. AMEN!

standardized testing has ruined education.

many many many teachers also agree.
it was a big issue in my state for a long time.

[last_texas_dem]

32. Agreed

I'd also include "vouchers" on that "worst education ideas ever" list, but I don't think we have to worry about the administration promoting those.

I'm flat-out against merit pay in principle because it involves assessing how good or bad of a teacher someone is based on the performance of the students in their classes. I can't see how many people don't see what an inaccurate gauge that is on its face. I've heard various ways of doing this proposed, but I've yet to see a way that seemed fair or accurate.

As for standardized testing, I don't have a problem with it in principle, but I do have a problem with using it to such an extent that it dictates the curriculum teachers must cover (at least if their students are to be "successful" by state standards), and when results on these tests are tied to the funding of schools and the salaries of teachers and administrators, or when it is used as the sole determinant of whether or not a student is promoted to the next grade level.

[aikoaiko]

34. Well if some teachers are meritorious, I'm all for paying them more.

I like standardized tests because they make for easy comparisons.

[TahitiNut]

39. Making the jobs of administrators and managers easier isn't really the objective, though.

You see, THAT'S why such cockamamie 'solutions' get aired. They're proposed by people who've CREATED the mess: people who don't comprehend the public education system's needs. Sadly, they're often in charge of those very systems -- maybe because they failed as teachers.

[Enrique]

37. what about New Math?

:shrug:

[Bread and Circus]

40. If you are willing to concede that some teachers are better than others...

by way of genetics, temperment, training, and so forth then you have to ask yourself:

Should a better teacher get paid more?

If you say: NO, no matter how good or bad you are, you should get paid the same...

then the arguments ends.

If you say: Yeah, I guess if you are more talented, more read, better trained and handle your class better, then you should get paid more than someone who barely meets standards...

then you have a conundrum because it raises some sticky issues:

1.) how do you measure teacher quality and performance?
2.) how do you measure the effects of quality on student outcomes?
3.) how do you create a scale that compensates for this?

I'm in the camp of saying better teachers and those teachers that take the jobs in the underserved educational areas should get more pay.

So, if you are a really good teacher in a really tough environment (like impoverished inner city or impoverished rural) then you should make more.

However, if you are a so-so teacher in an easy environment (wealthy suburb) then you should make less.

How you develop a system to produce that would be tough but achievable.

The problem is I think what you have now is that wealthy areas have better schools because there's more money in the tax base and the living/teaching conditions are more desirable. This further puts the disadvantaged areas behind.

I'm not sure why teachers are against merit pay, unless they are worried they won't get a good payscale or have their workload increased.

If I was a really good teacher in a bad area, I'd love someone to come along and financially recognize me for that.

P.S.

If you are of the mind that all teachers are pretty much the same in terms of quality, I would find that highly suspect. I know from personal experience I've had some amazing teachers and some downright lazy ones. We used to have this thing in high school called the "Brower Power Hour" because Mr. Brower basically let you sleep and fuck off in class. He was really lazy. He was fun to have as a kid but really failed to teach us American History and Civics like he should.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. All your points are good ones

All your assumptions about me are wrong.

Yes, I think quality matters and I think it should be rewarded. The issue is crafting a **fair** and **universally applicable** system of measuring that quality at least across a state if not the country.

I actually think good teachers favor merit pay (but so far, *only* in principle), and crappy teachers favor the status quo.

You say the job is 'tough but achievable' .... please expound on that.

[Bread and Circus]

47. my post wasn't about you specifically and I didn't mean to point a finger

I was trying to argue in the abstract other than the anecdote about the "Brower Power Hour" -- it was famous in my high school.

I think adjustments will be hard because there will be winners and loser and it's all couched in politics and an entrenched system.

Thank god Obama is tackling that and not me.

I'm sure there's a bell curve of teacher quality and performance. Whoever ends up on the bad side of that bell curve is not going to be happy and therein lies the rub.

I'm not going to say much more because I'm ignorant of how the teacher unions and teacher compensation works.

I'm a firm supporter of public schools, and my kids go to the same elementary schools I went to. We have great teachers and I couldn't be happier. I hope they are paid well.

[Vattel]

41. One thing is clear to me.

Low student-to-teacher ratios is a huge advantage, especially if the students are not very motivated. It is extremely difficult for a teacher to interact effectively, diagnose problems, get everyone thinking and working, etc., when you have a large class of under-motivated students. of course, reasonable teacher-to-student ratios are expensive.

[Silver Swan]

42. I was never a teacher

but I am from a family of educators.

I wish there was some real way to measure teacher merit.

Basing it on test scores, is (to borrow from a popular email thingy) like judging a dentist on the number of cavities his young patients have.

Some propensity to tooth decay is heredity, some is based on the oral care taught in the home. And some is related to the dental care, such as sealers, etc.

Heredity and home habits also have a lot do do with kids school performance. Should we blame, or award, the teachers for it all?

[LostInAnomie]

50. The problem that I see with merit pay and standardized testing...

... is that it comes from a view that children just like any other product. That a "good" teacher should be able to apply some formula to them and come out with a standard product that will preform when the tasks demanded. It completely negates any influence that comes from outside the classroom like living conditions, family background and support, peer interaction, etc., and puts the onus completely on the teacher.

Human beings can't be quantified in such a way, and no other profession that deals with people is tested in such a way. Can you seriously imagine police being paid based on the amount of crime that occurs in their city, or social workers being paid based on the successes in their case loads? They aren't because no matter how good they are at their job, due to the nature of it, society understands that there are limits to what they can actually do. The same understanding should apply to teachers.

Plus, merit pay is a tool for union busting.

[Occam Bandage]

51. Merit pay is a fantastic idea in theory.

It is a terrible idea in reality. So much of classroom performance is out of the hands of the teacher.

[JCMach1]

52. And the sooner Obama dumps them the better

Merit pay was one of his big campaign planks on education... :grr:

[Bodhi BloodWave]

53. Here are some snippets from a speech obama held before a group of teachers and such i believe.

((Not sure if this fits as what you were interested in, but it does show some of Obama's mindset on what he wants for education))

Now, part of the plan also calls for fixing the broken promises of No Child Left Behind. (Cheers, applause.) I -- I've said this before. I believe that the goals of this law were the right ones. We all want high standards. We all want a world-class education. We all want highly qualified teachers in the classroom. Making a promise to educate every child with an excellent teacher is right. Closing the achievement gap that exists in too many cities and rural areas is right. More accountability is right. Higher standards are right.

But I'll tell you what's wrong with No Child Left Behind: forcing our teachers, our principals and our schools to accomplish all of this without the resources they need is wrong. (Cheers, applause.) Promising high-quality teachers in every classroom and then leaving the support and the pay for those teachers behind is wrong. (Applause.) Labeling a school and its students as failures one day and then throwing your hands up and walking away from them the next is wrong. (Applause.)

And don't tell us that the only way to teach a child is to spend most of the year preparing him to fill in a few bubbles on a standardized test. (Cheers, applause.) I don't want teachers to the -- teaching to the test. I don't want them uninspired and I don't want our students uninspired. (Applause.) So what I've said is we will measure and hold accountable performance, but let's help our teachers and our principals develop a curriculum and assessments that teach our kids to become not just good test-takers. We need assessments that can improve achievement by including the kinds of research and scientific investigation and problem-solving that our children will need to compete in a 21st century knowledge economy. And we have to make sure that subjects like art and music are not being crowded out of the curriculum. And that's what we will do when I'm president of the United States. (Cheers, applause.)

So we must fix the failures of No Child Left Behind. We must provide the funding that school districts were promised, and give our states the resources they need to finally meet their commitment to special education. But Democrats -- I'm speaking to Democrats now -- Democrats have to realize that fixing No Child Left Behind by itself is not enough to prepare our children for a global economy. Being against No Child Left Behind is not an education policy. (Laughter.)

We need a new vision for a 21st century education -- one where we aren't just supporting existing schools, but spurring innovation; where we're not just investing more money, but demanding more reform; where parents take responsibility for their children's success -- (applause) -- where our schools and our government are accountable for results; where we're recruiting, retaining and rewarding an army of new teachers; and where students are excited to learn because they're attending schools of the future; where we expect all our children not only to graduate from high school, but to graduate college and get a good-paying job. (Applause.) So that's the vision that we have to work towards.

-snip-

But no matter how many choices we're giving our parents or how much technology we're using in our schools or how tough our classes are, none of it will make much difference if we don't also recruit, prepare and retain outstanding teachers -- (applause) -- because from the moment a child enters a school, the most important factor in their success is the person standing at the front of the classroom.

And that's why I proposed last year a new Service Scholarship program that will recruit top talent into the profession, and place these new teachers in overcrowded districts and struggling rural towns, or hard-to-staff subjects like special education, in schools across the nation. To prepare these new teachers, I'll create more Teacher Residency Programs that will build on a law I recently passed and train 30,000 high-quality teachers a year, especially in math and science. (Applause.) To support our teachers, we'll expand mentoring programs that pair experienced, successful teachers with new recruits.

And when our teachers succeed in making a real difference in our children's lives, we should reward them for it by finding new ways to increase teachers' pay across the board -- (applause) -- and to find ways to increase teachers' pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. We can do this. From Prince George's County in Maryland to Denver, Colorado, we're seeing teachers and school boards coming together to design performance pay plans.

So yes, we must give every teacher the tools they need to be successful. But we also need to give every child the assurance that they'll have the teacher they need to be successful. And that means setting a firm standard not based on a single, high-stakes standardized test, but based on assessments developed with teachers and educators so that teachers have confidence that they are being judged effectively based on their own -- the own tools that they put together with their peers.

Now, one one of the things that we're going to have to do -- and this is something that I know sometimes is difficult -- but teachers who are doing a poor job, they've got to get extra support. But if they don't improve, then they have to be replaced -- (cheers, applause) -- because as good teachers are the first to tell you -- as good teachers are the first to tell you, if we're going to attract the best teachers to the profession, then we can't settle for schools filled with teachers that aren't up to the job. (Cheers, applause.) That is just something that we're going to have to -- we have to embrace.

-snip-

This leads me to my final point. As president, I will lead a new era of accountability in education. But see, I don't just want to hold our teachers accountable; I want to hold our government accountable. I want you to hold me accountable. (Cheers, applause.) And that's why every year I'm president, I will report back to you on the progress our schools are making because it's time to stop passing the buck on education and start accepting responsibility. And that's the kind of example I'll set as president of the United States.

Accountability in Washington starts by making sure that every tax dollar spent by the Department of Education is being spent wisely. When I'm president, programs that work will get more money. Programs that don't work or just create more bureaucracy and paperwork and administrative gridlock will get less money. (Applause.) We will send -- we'll send a team to fix bad programs by replacing bad managers because your tax dollars should only be funding programs and grants that actually make a difference -- a measurable difference -- in a child's education.

In the end, responsibility for our children's success doesn't start in Washington, it starts in our homes. It starts in our families. (Applause.) Because no education policy can replace a parent who's involved in their child's education from day one -- (applause) -- who makes sure their children are in school on time, helps them with their homework after dinner, and attends those parent- teacher conferences. No government program can turn off the TV set or put away the video games or read to your children. (Cheers, applause.)

But we can help parents do a better job. That's why I'll create a parents report card that will show you whether your kid is on the path to college. We'll help schools post student progress reports online so you can get a regular update on what kind of grades your child is getting on tests and quizzes from week to week. If your child is falling behind or playing hooky, or isn't on track to go to college or compete for that good-paying job, it will be up to you to do something about it.

So yes, we need to hold our government accountable. Yes, we have to hold our schools accountable. But we also have to hold ourselves accountable. (Applause.)

link to transcript of whole speech: http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/09/obama_education_speech_in_ohio.html

[yurbud]

55. I will accept these business generated ''reforms'' when a catholic school teacher nun is appointed

Secretary of the Treasury.

it would make about as much sense.