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RandySF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:11 AM
Original message
Is Solar Truly "Green"?
I was recently told my a buddy in the green energy business that he dislikes solar as an alternative because of toxic materials that are used. If that is the case, is it worth creating the nasty stuff in order to get away from fossil fuels?
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hold on...
:popcorn:

Okay, I'm ready.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. move over
:beer:
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'll share if you do.
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can your "buddy" post to this site and let us know exactly...
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 01:14 AM by WorseBeforeBetter
what toxic materials are used in solar?
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Your friend should find a different industry, his head's up his ass on this.
Have your friend read this, it's from NREL, a government body, no copyright.

Fthenakis (BNL): Environmental, Health, and Safety Issues in Photovoltaic Technologies: A Summary (draft)

Photovoltaic (PV) technologies have distinct environmental advantages for generating electricity over conventional technologies. The operation of photovoltaic systems does not produce any noise, toxic-gas emissions, or greenhouse gases. Photovoltaic energy not only can help meet the growing worldwide demand for electricity, but it can do so without incurring the high economic and environmental costs of burning fossil fuels and installing power lines. Compared to burning coal, every gigawatt-hour of electricity generated by photovoltaics would prevent the emission of about 10 tons of sulfur dioxide, 4 tons of nitrogen oxides, 0.7 tons of particulates, and up to 1000 tons of carbon dioxide.

As with any energy source or product, there are environmental, health and safety (EHS) hazards associated with the manufacture, use, and disposal of solar cells. Although the PV industry uses far smaller amounts of toxic- and flammable-substances than many other industries, its use of hazardous chemicals can entail occupational and environmental hazards. Addressing EHS concerns is the focus of numerous studies at Brookhaven National Laboratory, under the auspices of the US Department of Energy’s National Photovoltaic Program. More than 150 articles highlighting these studies are posted in our bibliography. Below is a summary of EHS issues pertaining to the manufacture of crystalline-Si, amorphous silicon, CuInSe2 and CdTe solar cells. We will promptly send the full articles to the reader who wants more details.
Crystalline Silicon Solar Cells
Occupational Health Issues

The occupational health issues are related to chemical burns and the inhalation of fumes from hydrofluoric acid (HF) and other solutions of acids (e.g., HNO3) and alkalis (e.g., NaOH) used for cleaning wafers, removing dopant oxide, and cleaning the reactor. Dopant gases and vapors (e.g., POCl3, B2H3), also are hazardous when inhaled. POCl3 is a liquid, but in a deposition chamber it can generate toxic P2O5 and Cl2 gaseous effluents. Inhalation hazards are controlled with properly designed ventilation systems in the process stations. Other occupational hazards are related to the flammability of silane (SiH4) and its byproducts from silicon nitride deposition; these hazards are discussed in the a-Si section below.
Environmental Issues and Waste Minimization

The environmental issues are related to the generation of liquid- and solid-wastes during wafer slicing, cleaning, and etching, and processing and assembling of solar cells.

The PV industry has embarked upon programs of waste minimization and examines environmentally friendlier alternatives for solders, slurries and solvents. Waste minimization can be effective in crystalline Si-cell manufacturing, as demonstrated by successful programs in the laboratory and in manufacturing plants. For example, the Photovoltaic Device Fabrication Laboratory at Sandia National Laboratories reduced waste generation by 75% since 1990 by substituting re-using and recycling materials. By switching from ID saws to multiple-wire saws, Siemens Solar Corporation reduced by about 20% the caustic waste generated by etching that removes saw-damage after wafer slicing. Wire-sawn wafers require less etching to remove saw damage, and simultaneously, increase productivity as more wafers per inch of Si ingot are obtained. Additional options for waste minimization under investigation include recycling stainless-steel cutting wires, recovering the SiC in the slurry, and in-house neutralization of acid and alkali solutions.

Amorphous Silicon Solar Cells

Occupational Safety Issues

Amorphous silicon cells are currently by glow discharge deposition from mixtures of SiH4/H2, or SiH4/GeH4/H2. Because of the low material utilization of deposition process (e.g., 10%), a relatively large volume of these gases is used. The main safety hazard of this technology is the use of SiH4 gas, which is extremely pyrophoric. The lower limit for its spontaneous ignition in air ranges from 2% to 3%, depending on the carrier gas. If mixing is incomplete, a pyrophoric concentration may exist locally, even if the concentration of SiH4 in the carrier gas is less than 2 %. If SiH4 escapes in a partially confined space at flow rates above 300 lpm, an explosion is likely. Releases in open air usually ignite and burn smoothly; under appropriate circumstances, burning or flaring can be a mechanism for preventing an explosion. In addition to SiH4, hydrogen used in a-Si manufacturing and in producing small quantities of crystalline-Si also is explosive. Earlier publications discussed SiH4 and H2 safety in detail. Most PV manufacturers use sophisticated gas-handling systems with sufficient safety features to minimize the risks of fire and explosion. Some facilities store silane and hydrogen in bulk in tube trailers to avoid frequently changing gas cylinders. Bulk storage decreases the probability of an accident, since trailer changes are infrequent, well-scheduled special events that are treated in a precise well-controlled manner, under the attention of the plant’s management, safety officials, the gas supplier, and local fire-department officials. On the other hand, if an accident occurs, the consequences can be much greater than one involving gas cylinders.

Toxic doping-gases (e.g., AsH3, PH3) are used in quantities too small to pose any significant hazards to public health or the environment. However, leakage of these gases can cause significant occupational risks, and management must show continuous vigilance to safeguard personnel. Applicable prevention options were presented in previous publications.

Public Health and Environmental Issues

For a-Si facilities that use bulk silane, the potential consequences from a catastrophic release need to be assessed on a facility-specific basis. No significant environmental issues have been identified with this technology.

Cadmium Telluride Solar Cells

CdTe solar cells can be manufactured by several deposition techniques, such as close-spaced sublimation, electrodeposition, and spraying. The CdS films needed for heterojunction formation usually are formed by spray pyrolysis or solution growth. The efficiency of material utilization in these processes ranges from a high of 90% for electrodeposition, to a low of 5% to 10% for spray pyrolysis.

Occupational Health Issues

The occupational health hazards from Cd- and Te-compounds in various processing steps vary with the compounds' toxicities, their physical state, and the mode of exposure. No clinical data are available on human health effects associated with exposure to CdTe. Research at the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), compared the toxicity of CdTe, CIS, and CGS in animal experiments simulating ingestion and inhalation; CdTe had the highest toxicity and CGS the lowest. In the United States, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulate one of the parent compounds, Cd, that is considered both toxic and a lung carcinogen OSHA considers all Cd compounds (including CdTe) to be toxic.

In production facilities, workers could be accidentally exposed to Cd compounds through inhalation or ingestion from hand-to-mouth contact. Processes in which Cd compounds are used or produced as fine particles or fumes present larger risks. Spray pyrolysis with its very low utilization efficiency generates a large quantity of by-products and fine particles. Some of these materials will be deposited on the reactor’s wall, requiring periodic scraping or chemical removal and cleaning. The large fraction remaining will be contained in the exhaust gas. In this type of process, hazards to workers may arise from preparing the feedstock, from fume and vapor leaks, and such maintenance operations. Since feedstocks in less fine form are inherently safer

Hazard management options include the use of CdTe and CdS in coarse particle or pellet sizes, process automation, isolation and local ventilation, air monitoring, personal protective equipment, and prudent work practices. These were presented in earlier articles. CdTe PV manufacturing facilities implement industrial-hygiene programs that include biomonitoring. In today’s CdTe facilities, no detectable levels of cadmium have been reported from monitoring people during manufacturing and maintenance operations.

Public Health and Environmental Issues

The health of the public may be affected from chronic exposure to Cd compounds released to the environment as a by-product of different manufacturing steps, or as a waste from the uncontrolled disposal of spent photovoltaic modules. The magnitude of potential releases from manufacturing depends on the methods and controls implemented in each facility. For example, a 10 MWp PV fabrication plant, using electrodeposition with an efficiency of 90% in forming a 2 mm CdTe layer, would generate only 11 kg/yr of Cd and 12 kg/yr of Te, mostly as ions in solution. Therefore, electrodeposition poses minimal public-health hazards during routine operations. Only if accidentally the electrodeposition batch becomes contaminated, or a spill occurs, may additional material need treatment.

A less efficient deposition process (e.g., spray pyrolysis with an estimated efficiency of 10%), would generate about 950 kg of CdCl2, CdO, HCl, H2S and thiourea byproducts. Some of this material will be deposited on the reactor's walls, but most will be in a gaseous form in the exhaust stream. Under these assumptions, a 10 MWp plant may generate emission flow rates of about 0.45 kg/hr during an 8 hr/day, for 250 days-per-year. These can be removed by 99+% efficiency by using HEPA filters or other pollution control equipment.

Copper Indium Selenide Solar Cells

Copper Indium Selenide (CuInSe2, CIS) thin-films can be formed by several processes, including co-evaporation (i.e., physical vapor deposition) of Cu, In, and Se, and selenization of Cu and In layers in a H2Se atmosphere. In the second method, Cu and In are deposited by electron-beam evaporation and sputtering techniques. Other options involve gallium sources and the formation of copper gallium selenide layers (CGS). Heterojunctions typically are formed with CdS film. The health and safety issues related to CdS were discussed in the context of CdS/CdTe solar cells, above.

Occupational Health and Safety Issues

There is limited information on the toxicity of CIS and CGS. As discussed earlier, limited animal testing comparing CdTe, CIS, and CGS showed that CGS has the lowest toxicity, and that CIS is somewhat more toxic than CGS but less so than CdTe. Measurements of airborne concentrations of copper, indium, and cadmium from mechanical scribing and deposition operations on CIS/CdS modules demonstrated that they were well below their threshold levels. .

The main safety issue in producing CIS cells is related to the highly toxic gas hydrogen selenide used as feedstock in some processes. Accident-prevention options were described in earlier articles.

Hazard Management and Environmental Issues

The options for substitution, isolation, work practices, and personnel monitoring outlined for CdTe are applicable to CIS manufacturing too. In addition, using hydrogen selenide in some CIS fabrication processes requires engineering and administrative controls to safeguard workers and the public from exposure to this highly toxic gas; these may include limited inventories, and flow-restricting valves. Routine and accidental emissions of hydrogen selenide from process tools can be controlled with wet or dry scrubbing. Such systems were discussed in earlier articles.

CONCLUSION

The manufacture of photovoltaic modules uses some toxic- and explosive-gases, corrosive liquids, and suspected carcinogens in solid form. Routine conditions in manufacturing facilities should not pose any threats to health and the environment. Quality control in these facilities demands especially clean conditions, with air concentrations of contaminants in occupational space much below the threshold exposure limits. However, as general guidance, all facilities working with hazardous materials should continue to control exposures by monitoring, employing engineering controls and personal protective equipment, and instituting good work practices.

Hazardous materials could adversely affect occupational health and, in some instances, public health during accidents. Such hazards arise primarily from the toxicity and explosiveness of specific gases. Accidental releases of hazardous gases and vapors can be prevented through choosing safer technologies, processes, and materials, better use of materials, and by employee training and safety procedures. As the PV industry vigilantly and systematically approaches these issues and mitigation strategies, the risk to the industry, the workers, and the public will be minimized. This effort is especially important in view of the anticipated multi-hundred MW production facilities to meet the increased demand for PV.

http://www.nrel.gov/pv/thin_film/docs/summary_esh_from_bnl_all_techs_draft.doc.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. What risk do they pose
To the environment upon disposal? Do you need to take them to special collection sites?
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. The silicon in the panels has value and can be reprocessed.
Photovoltaic panels are semiconductors, just like computer chips, almost pure silicon.

Tiny amounts of boron, phosphorous, galium, or arsenic are added to the silicon to give them these the special properties they have.

The industry is new, disposal hasn't been a big concern.

Where I have seen them recycled is into solar toys; broken panels still have a photovoltaic effect and can run small motors.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. What she/he said. GOD-DAMN brains are sexy!
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I don't know mt CGS from a CIS in the ground, but
I've wondered what the "half life" of the glues and compounds that must go into these gadgets is. And I am comfortable with the technology to safeguard workers in making the panels, as long as companies MUST have -and us- the safety equipment. I imagine ventilation and class I division I equipment will be needed in areas. So, there must be enforcement of MSDS issues and then tracking for disposal of these panels after they are old technology and replaced.

Are the Israeli's still cutting edge with this stuff? They were for a while.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. 25 year life, not a lot of materials there. Compare to an automobile.
Nobody seems to complain much about all the materials and adhesives and toxic stuff involved in an automobile with a life half that of a solar photovoltaic panel.

The safety issue is a problem in China, not surprisingly.

I don't know that the Israelis have anything on Nanosolar or other cutting edge firms right here in America.

:patriot:
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-09-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
42. right on point, thanks. n/t
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Pity it's complete bollocks, really
read this. And this. And this. And this.

Then how tell us how fucking green, clean and safe it is. That's a shitload of damage for 0.0% of our electricity.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. What would you say if I mentioned that you've been drinking Fluoride
for the last 60 years?

I'm not defending it, but it's a fact that you are taking daily doses if you drinking from U.S. Municipal water supplies that have not banned it.

The inflammatory comment above is a segway into the fact that Fluoring is used in just about every chemical process known to man. Fluorine pollution is so rampant, that the corporation convinced Water companies to fluouridate there water to "Save Teeth". In reality, they used it to protect themselves from any liability down the line.

Personally, I like the www.nanosolar.com process, but like any chemical compound, they all have unique risks.

Personally, cars pollute more over their lifespan that any solar panel ever will. From noise, to smog, to salt, to oil, cars are one dirty invention, and I can't even feed the waste to my plants as fertilizer.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Dead_Parrot's a kiwi
:D
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Although we also have water fluoridation...
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 07:03 AM by Dead_Parrot


...so his point would be valid (if it wasn't another load of bollocks)

edit: Besides, technically I'm British, and you know what that means, tooth-wise...
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. .
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I'd say, "So fucking what?"
The operation of photovoltaic systems does not produce any noise, toxic-gas emissions, or greenhouse gases.

It's wrong. It's either a deliberate lie, or it's stupidity. whichever, it is not true.

I know what's in my water. It also know what's in my air, and some of it comes from solar panels: I also know that, gigajoule for gigajoule, there is more stuff in my air from solar panels than there is from wind power, wave power, geothermal, hydroelectricity, and nuclear energy. Semiconductors are nasty stuffs to make, even if you stick "nano" on as a prefix to make it sound funky.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. I know somebody whose cousin worked in a place....
Sorry, you can't damn the entire industry based on those. The Chinese can fuck up sheet rock, fer cryin out loud. You're generalizing based on isolated incidents and insufficient evidence.

Bill
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. So, the Chinese burned out Deme Gabrilay's lungs?
Dude, at least read all the links before hitting reply. It would also be nice if you actually came up with some hard facts (rather than wild-ass accusations) while you're at it, but maybe we should take this one step at a time.

Start with the chemistry of NF3 and the death of Deme Gabrilay, just to pin down how much it's all the Chinese's fault, and we'll take it from there.
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I read all the links.
The death of one man is tragic, but not a reason to generalize about an entire industry. Was it a wild ass accusation that you can't generalize about an entire industry based on one man's death? I do, however have a degree in chemistry, so let me say this about NF3. It should not be released into the environment in large quantities. But then, we release mercury into the environment in huge quantities every day from coal fired electrical generation.

Fact Sheet on Mercury Pollution from Coal-Fired Power Plants in Kansas

Prepared by Kansas Chapter, Sierra Club - 10-06-06

Summary. Coal fired power plants are currently the largest single source of airborne mercury emissions in the United States. Airborne mercury emissions travel tens to hundreds of miles before depositing, primarily in rainfall, into lakes and streams where it accumulates in fish that may be eaten by people. This adds to uptake via seafood consumption. The EPA recently announced that 1 in 6 women of childbearing age in the US have blood mercury levels that could be harmful to a fetus....


http://kansas.sierraclub.org/Wind/Coal-MercuryFactSheet.htm

You haven't demonstrated that NF3 is more harmful than that mercury. Let's see the hard facts.

Bill
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. More on NF3.
It is used to make PCs and LCD TVs. I bet there are more CF3s in the atmosphere because of computers and TVs than because of solar cells. Are looking at your monitor as you type out your generalizations about solar cells? Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Bill
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Chemical Bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. NF3s again.
I missed this the first two times I read that article: NF3s are use to make thin film solar cells. So it isn't the majority of the solar cell industry that uses NF3s, as opposed to computer chips. You're right, we need hard facts.

Bill

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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. The Chinese are doing it poorly. Their environmental record sucks on everything.
And NF3 means my Prius is evil?

And because Advanced Silicon Materials had a fatal accident means we should halt photovoltaic production.

And your last link, LOL, is about SILOCONE, not Silicon.

I have no idea what they're doing but note this difference, it's silicone, not silicon.:

"COMPERE: The conservation movement in Western Australia says it has proof that a Japanese silicone company operating in that State has found viable alternatives to jarrah wood but is refusing to use them. The Simcoa plant near Bunbury was the site chosen to kick off the environment movement's year 2000 campaign to save the jarrah forests. It takes about five tonnes of jarrah, which only grows in Western Australia, to make one tonne of silicone. David Weber reports from the State's south-west where environmental campaigns are also focussing on economics.

DAVID WEBER: Jarrah forest appears in Western Australia and nowhere else in the world. Conservationists say unique species are being lost with the trees. They say it's madness to allow jarrah to be turned into silicone. The Wilderness Society's David Mackenzie:"





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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. Bollocks indeed - Chinese industrial pollution? Who knew?
Nothing in that NF3 link said anything about actual NF3 emissions from PV production - flat screen TeeVees - yup, cell phones, integrated chip production -yup, but no mention of NF3 emissions from real and operating PV manufacturing plants.

Industrial accidents with UF6 kill people too - and uranium miners die from exposure to radon and uranium ore dust.

Jarrah wood polysilicon for PV? Not mentioned in the link - Jarrah wood for the IC industry - yup.

again Bollocks

nice try though

:D
:

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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. I have neighbors/friends that are totally solar
.
.
.

They NEVER had hydro there, no hydro poles ever fed their property

They bought/built this place about ten years ago

they have about 1,000 watts of panels

humongous battery bank in the basement

and a small generator to charge the batteries in prolonged cloudy weather

I think they spend less than 100 bucks a year on gas for the generator

they don't need it very often

NOW

as to the disposal of the panels whenever they die out . . .

I suspect it will be less harmful than nuclear waste

Just my Canuk suspicions mind ya

oh

one other thing

when there is a power outage?

they don't notice . . :dunce:

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. Yes. You only have to build the equipment once.
The waste products from manufacturing etc. are more easily managed and can be factored into the cost.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Thread winner right here.
Simple, and correct answer.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Do they last as long as a slate roof?
Can I expect my solar panels to last a hundred years or more?

:shrug:

This civilization is a temporary phenomena with or without solar panels. Most everything will end up as a curious layer of trash, including solar panels.

If you're not aiming for 100% recycling, sorta like the way I throw stuff in my compost heap and it magically turns into good dirt, then you are only reducing the amount of trash temporarily -- maybe the dump fills up in your kid's lifetime instead of yours.

The trick isn't doing things "once," the trick is making things 100% recylclable.
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. It's possible (that your solar panels will last 100 years)
Most manufacturers seem to be quoting 25 years,
but there's no "wear-out" mechanism per se, so if
the solar cells remain protected from the weather,
their life may be indefinitely long.

Keep the panels sealed against water intrusion
and they'll probably still be going strong next
century.

Tesha

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. Yeah, easily managed.
The first time Li Gengxuan saw the dump trucks from the nearby factory pull into his village, he couldn't believe what happened. Stopping between the cornfields and the primary-school playground, the workers dumped buckets of bubbling white liquid onto the ground. Then they drove right back through the gates of their compound without a word.
...
"The land where you dump or bury it will be infertile. No grass or trees will grow in the place. ... It is like dynamite — it is poisonous, it is polluting. Human beings can never touch it,"


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2004281580_chinasolar14.html

Shit, it doesn't get any easier that that, does it?

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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. So make sure to buy from a responsible manufacturer
Guess what, technology doesn't redefine human nature. Just because some manufacturers are unethical and dump their waste on their neighbors doesn't mean the technology is fundamentally flawed. Meantime, make noise, write to the Chinese embassy (or suchlike) and let them know you're not going to invest in products produced this way.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. Right, and there is no input fuel resource. Even hydro depends on rainfall.
Wind is pretty dependable, but precipitation is cyclical.

California's hydro contribution to the mix is down considerably.

Any comparison of solar to coal, natural gas, or biomass needs to consider that these three need a constant input of fuel.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. The only thing that's "truly green" would be the heat-death of the universe.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. Ask your buddy what he thinks of the 750,000 metric tons of toxic corrosive radioactive UF6
produced from uranium enrichment plant that are sitting around in millions of corroding casks in the US.

Or the millions of tons of toxic tailings produced by uranium and coal mines.

Or the tens of thousands of metric tons of highly radioactive spent fuel produced by US nuclear power plants.

Or the tens of millions of tons of toxic fly ash and billions of trons of CO2 produced by coal-fired power plants each year.

Then tell your ignorant freeper friend to shove his ignorant freeper head up his ignorant freeper ass...

:D
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Yeah, but have you ever stood on the turbine deck at a nuclear plant? I have.

Mmmmmmm.. 2,200 MEGAWATTS. 24/7

:loveya:

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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
30. Sounds like more republicon BS propaganda from DraftDodger Limbaugh
and the other Chickenhawk Reublicon propagandists -- Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly --

They all want America to FAIL. So they are all spouting lies.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
32. The fail is strong with this one...


Nice try....
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
33. If I were you, I'd pitch the computer, cellphone, TV, and microwave
Oh, and better throw out the car, too. All of these items contain semiconductors manufactured with precisely the same chemicals and processes.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
35. Green enough. NEXT!
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
38. Tell him to throw away his computer..
.. because the manufacture of ALL integrated circuits (chips) uses tons of toxic materials.

These kinds of arguments are typically made by people who know very little and are merely repeating what they heard some wingnut or corporate whore say.

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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
39. I hope he is consistent and does not have a cell phone or
a computer.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. No! Listen to me!!!! Solar Green is PEOPLE!!!!
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